Normal Leather vs Studded Leather armor.

[Herolover]

Hello all.

In Fantasy Hero, the new book, leather armor is broken down into soft, heavy, and boiled. Then, you can add metal studs to each to get studded leather. However, according to the book, studded leather is equivalent in DEF provided and the BODY of the armor, as its equivalent non-studded armor.
Example: Heavy leather armor is equivalent to studded heavy leather armor. Mechanically there is no difference between the armors.

However, according to the book adding studding to armor “reinforces” it. So, how do we account for the difference between studded and non-studded armor? Do you raise the DEF? Do you raise the BODY of the armor? Do you do something else?

[sbarron]

I don't have FH (hopefully tonight! :)), but unless it was a mistake to not raise the DEF to the next higher level when adding studding, I would think reinforcing would increase the BOD. Maybe Steve will weigh in on this. He did right it, afterall.

[Steve Long]

Here's what this boils down to: not every real-world difference is of sufficient degree to merit a difference in HERO System rules terms. I don't see the studs in studded leather as offering enough additional benefit to merit more DEF given the current granularity (or lack thereof) in the rules.

[Herolover]

I agree. That given the range the HERO system uses DEF should probably not be increased. What about the BODY though?

If you don't increase the BODY or DEF I am wondering how different GM' roleplay the difference between studded and non-studded armor. Do you have any suggestions?

[AnotherSkip]

Yes make BDSM jokes at the people wearing the studs.....?

sorry Terry Gillam strikes again

[MisterVimes]

From my experience, studded leather with sufficient coverage and backing is essentially brigandine.

[Steve Long]

You could certainly increase the BODY if you wanted to. If you do that, though, you might want to review the BODY for all types of armor and adjust appropriately. Making one exception might seem a little, I dunno, "unfair."

[Toadmaster]

I don't have the new FH either (impatiently waiting on my order) but why not just assume studded leather is equal to the next armor up, so soft studded leather = heavy leather armor, heavy with studs = boiled and boiled with studs = brigantine (which I believe is basically boiled leather reinforced with with metal).

Or perhaps allow studs to add 1 DEF with an activation roll.

Since I haven't seen the new armor section I just guessing at this point.

[Old Man]

From what I understand, studded leather is much better at preventing road rash when you fall off your motorcycle.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Old Man
From what I understand, studded leather is much better at preventing road rash when you fall off your motorcycle.

And lets you slide a few extra yards. ;)

[MisterVimes]

It's always good to remember that in a game system, one cannot always simulate reality. Few systems bother to rate armor against bashing/slashing/piercing because it is just too obtuse in a simulation. That's the case here. If I were to value studded Leather more highly, it would be based on amount of studs covering the leather (and the plate backing). Few studs would result in little change, while many would change the definition of the leather to Brigandine.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
And lets you slide a few extra yards. ;)

And provides a few burns where the studs heated up... :D

[Old Man]

I'll take a few little burns over road rash any day. The stories I've heard about the stiff plastic brush really curdle my blood. :eek:

[Tim]

Or perhaps you could make studded leather hardened?

[Markdoc]

Umm, outside fantasy movies and BDSM, was there ever anything like "studded" leather? I have never seen a contemporary reference to such a beast, nor a real piece of such armour - athough it must be admitted leather armour is not that easy to find.

A brigandine is certainly nothing to do with studded leather - it's essentially a coat of metal plates held in place with either soft leather, cloth, or (in some middle eastern/asian cultures) light mail.

I agree with Stevel - adding studs to leather is just a fashion statement. It shouldn't do anything to the DEF.

cheers, Mark

[AnotherSkip]

Well actually the best answer I have for historical use is that pirates being unable to wear heavy armor but needing something more than"just Leathor" started adding studs to the leathor in places more vulneralbe than others (kidney belts and other places likely to get stabbed in the back). essentially it was one way to have _some_ of the protection of metal armor while at sea and still able to occasionally stop a nasty knife thrust.

best bet mechanics wise?
SFX for Combat Luck
best bet # 2
1-6 Armor (6 would be hitting massive location of studs dead on with the weapon 1 would be a glancing blow in a lightly studded area.) separate activation roll from the to hit location mods.

[Citizen Keen]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
sorry Terry Gillam strikes again

Speaking of which, where was Terry in the Bibliography?!

[Herolover]

As the original poster of this thread I thought I should chime in and tell you what I have decided to do.

When I first noticed this (what I thought might be a problem) I initially thought of increasing the DEF, but was not happy with that idea.

I then thought of increasing the BODY of the armor, but wasn't sure on that either.

In the end I have decided that it is an RP thing. Studded Leather, due to the reinforcment offered by the studs, will not require as much money to repair and will not ruin as quickkly as normal leather.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Markdoc
Umm, outside fantasy movies and BDSM, was there ever anything like "studded" leather? I have never seen a contemporary reference to such a beast, nor a real piece of such armour - athough it must be admitted leather armour is not that easy to find.


I can't believe this! You seem to be right as I cannot locate anything on the web about this being in period. Dang, and I always thought it was. The closest I can find isn't really 'studded' but rings sewn onto the outside of the padded shirt. Something I also term lovingly as "Washer Armor". ;)

[Markdoc]

>>> I can't believe this! You seem to be right <<<

But of course! ;)

Seriously though, I think the whole thing started with overenthusiastic Victorian amateur historians who tried to define different styles of armour based on contemporary illustrations. They gave us "banded mail", "mascled mail" (I've always wanted to ask a GM if I could buy mascled mail), threaded mail and... studded mail or studded armour.

This despite the fact that historically there only seem to have been 4 kinds of armour - mail, splint/lamellar, articulated plate and leather/cloth - and that medieval artists were not famous for their adherence to accurate depiction ("Is that a horse he's riding? It looks more like a daschund." "No, I think it's a big weasel with pointy ears - or maybe a gaint marmot" "Don't be an idiot - they didn't have marmots in medieval Germany")

When Gygax came along, he wanted multiple armour types, so studded leather and banded mail entered the general vocabulary along with useful words like Glaive-Guisarme.

cheers, Mark

[AnotherSkip]

Isn't banded armor actually the Roman armor ....

Dagnabbit!!! i even have a friend who wears it in the SCA....

loricus?
I want to say llamanai, but that is Incan

[MarkusDark]

The thing that get's me is the over abundance use of the word "mail". To my historical searching, there is only one type of mail - chain mail. All other type of armor should be just the name - scale, plate, banded, ring, etc. Mail, I believe, refers to the weaving process of the metal wire to create the armor. It is more of another Gary Gygax creation to scale mail, banded mail, plate mail, ring mail and so on.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
Isn't banded armor actually the Roman armor ....

Dagnabbit!!! i even have a friend who wears it in the SCA....

loricus?
I want to say llamanai, but that is Incan

Lorica Segmentata is one of the spelling/pronunciations of the 'standard' roman armor. There is also Loricus Sementanta and combintations of the two.

And I think banded armor is any armor where metal strips are literally banded together.

[Vanguard00]

Originally posted by Herolover
In the end I have decided that it is an RP thing. Studded Leather, due to the reinforcment offered by the studs, will not require as much money to repair and will not ruin as quickkly as normal leather.


Good call. As an aside, I would think it would be a little more to repair studded leather as it's slightly more "intricate" (in the loosest sense of the word) than it's "plain" counterpart.

Personally, I don't allow studded leather in my games. No historical reasons or even compelling logic for including it :)

Just my too sense...

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Markdoc
Umm, outside fantasy movies and BDSM, was there ever anything like "studded" leather? I have never seen a contemporary reference to such a beast, nor a real piece of such armour - athough it must be admitted leather armour is not that easy to find.

I can't rememeber if it was a museum recreation or a book reference but I'ver seen it - Some European prince had a suit of studded armor made for him that used over a thousand rivets. It was quite heavy and the studs closely spaced. I can see where it would provide better protection than plain leather.

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by Old Man
From what I understand, studded leather is much better at preventing road rash when you fall off your motorcycle.

What about falling off your horse?:rolleyes:

[Markdoc]

Lorica segmentata (or the Loricus Segmentum, if you want to be picky) is what is generally referred to as articulated plate.

After all "plate" armour normally had the abdomen composed of several segments too - otherwise your torso was entirely immobilised.

Likewise, although people think of the classic heavy infantryman's armour from the Hadrianic period as "lorica segmentata" (because Hadrian left us a lot of carvings showing it) writers used the plural "Lorica segmentata" for a reason - this name covered different types of armour, some of which were in fact solid breastplates of the type which survived the Camillian reforms, others of which appear to be what we would call Lamellar or Scale today. It just means "armour made from individual pieces" and was probbaly found in a thousand different variants.

While the Romans were very precise in their language for things they really cared about (How many other languages have a word for "killed every tenth person"?) they appear to have given liitle though to the needs of 20th-21st century gamers for concise terminology :)

There's no reference or meaning of welding, anywhere - the classic lorica segmentata appears to have been held together with leather straps and little metal hooks and eyes: much like 15th century plate armour.

cheers, Mark

[Herolover]

Originally posted by Vanguard00
Good call. As an aside, I would think it would be a little more to repair studded leather as it's slightly more "intricate" (in the loosest sense of the word) than it's "plain" counterpart.

Personally, I don't allow studded leather in my games. No historical reasons or even compelling logic for including it :)

Just my too sense...

I am also considering taking your stance and just getting rid of it. Would make it much easier. Have to do some more thinking....

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Vanguard00
Good call. As an aside, I would think it would be a little more to repair studded leather as it's slightly more "intricate" (in the loosest sense of the word) than it's "plain" counterpart.

Personally, I don't allow studded leather in my games. No historical reasons or even compelling logic for including it

Just my too sense...

Historical reasons I can't give, but I would think the studs would give a little more protection from slashing and glancing attacks.

My tuppence.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Thirdbase
What about falling off your horse?:rolleyes:

You ride your horse at a full gallop on asphalt? Isn't that animal cruelty?

[Vanguard00]

Originally posted by Black Rose
Historical reasons I can't give, but I would think the studs would give a little more protection from slashing and glancing attacks.

My tuppence.

Well, yeah, I could probably come up with a good reason for leather to be studded. I just couldn't come up with a good reason to include studded leather :)

[SuperPheemy]

I'm just impressed that Steve found an opportunity to use the word "Granularity".

[torgo]

What about adding +1 DEF on a activation roll of 8- for studded variants of leather armors, for those that like it regardless of historical accuracy? After all, lots of things in the fantasy genre are not historically accurate.

...Before Martin Luther can nail his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church and start the Reformation he is struck with a Magic Missile? Huh?

[Roland]

If we grant the existence of studded leather, then I think it should obviously give more defense than the same kind of leather without metal studs - if only for internal consistency.

Ring mail gives +2 defense over plain leather of the same type. What is ring mail? It's just leather covered with close-set metal rings. This establishes that adding metal to leather can increase its defensive value.

If, by adding enough metal, one can increase armor's defensive value by +2, then there should be some lesser level of metal enhancement that would increase the armor's defensive value by +1. I would call this studded leather, since that is the traditional terminology for armor of that defensive value in fantasy RPGs.

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by torgo
What about adding +1 DEF on a activation roll of 8- for studded variants of leather armors, for those that like it regardless of historical accuracy? After all, lots of things in the fantasy genre are not historically accurate.

If it weren't for the increased complexity, I'd say add +1 DEF, only against slashing (and other "indirect"-type) attacks. This would cover sabres, certain knifefighting styles, and the occasional rolling fall.


...Before Martin Luther can nail his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church and start the Reformation he is struck with a Magic Missile? Huh?

Nah, nah, you misread it. In actuality, Martin Luther was struck with a Magic Missal. :D

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Roland
If we grant the existence of studded leather, then I think it should obviously give more defense than the same kind of leather without metal studs - if only for internal consistency.

Ring mail gives +2 defense over plain leather of the same type. What is ring mail? It's just leather covered with close-set metal rings. This establishes that adding metal to leather can increase its defensive value.

If, by adding enough metal, one can increase armor's defensive value by +2, then there should be some lesser level of metal enhancement that would increase the armor's defensive value by +1. I would call this studded leather, since that is the traditional terminology for armor of that defensive value in fantasy RPGs.

It would have to be pretty heavy studding; none of that two or three inch spacing you see on some illustrations (which I think is a misviewing of some kind of quilted armor). I've seen the rings they use, and they are thick and frequent. Still, if one views +1 DEF as a doubling of defensive power, it would make sense. And I really like the "add-on"-ness of it; there's something about all the layers of concept that appeals to me.