HERO Skins

[fredrik_nilsson]

I’ve already proposed something similar in another thread on the board, but to avoid external influences in the sixth edition threads I will give it another try.

One of the most intriguing things about the Hero System as it currently is – and most probably will remain – is its potential to simulate other systems. Experienced users of the system can basically adjust the system to imitate the behavior of any other system (just look at all the optional magic systems in Fantasy Hero).

In some way this reminds of how skins are used in the computing industry to adjust the GUI (graphical user interface) for programs. Take for example the window managing system behind LINUX; with the help of it you could one day give the computer the feel of being a Mac, another day Windows based PC and the third day a text-based UNIX station. Yet the computer has been run using the same operating system all three days.

In the fifth edition core book there is some discussion on the subject (pages 558-568), but I think the system could benefit from an even more in depth discussion. I mean if the system could be “anything for anyone” it would take the universal toolkit approach to new heights, and by extension it could make the system more peoples’ “cup of tea”.

What I would like to see is a discussion on how to think when you change the system and some examples of the ideas being put to practice. The “changing the system” part could take much inspiration from the magic part from Fantasy Hero and the “example section” could be a mix of the “example spell system” part of the same book and the “genre by genre” part of the core book. Unless I’m totally wrong the FUDGE RPG uses a similar approach (but I’ve never tested it).

Recommended example systems could be:
Characteristics: Based on the recommended on how to convert the Tri-Stat system (in the Reality Storm book) there should be a way to create a small skin for a rules-light system along Guardians of Orders line.
Dot System: This would naturally be a storyteller system clone. The recommended rules changes could be to translate rolls into dots and for each dot roll one six-sided die (with 5-6 being a ‘successes’).
Level Based: This skins is intended for the D&D and Palladium converts. There should be some ideas around the topic of creating balanced levels (in other words pre-made packages) and converting the OCV, DCV and “to hit” to something even more close to attack bonuses and armor classes. Roll high for skills would also be perfect here. To push it even further towards true emulation of the intended source exchange 3d6 with d20.
Percentile: For the old school gamers it would be nice to see a skin based on the assumption on rolls with d100 instead of 3d6. The real rule modification would be look at a table to see which d100 roll that equals a certain 3d6 roll. This conversion is only done during character creation and when buying new stuff for the character using experience points. For simplicity a small table of recommended difficulty modifiers could be added.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think this would make an interesting expansion book, even if it didn't make it in as part of the main rules. I think a lot more could be done with the "toolkit" aspect of HERO than most HERO players do, and material discussing approaches to doing it, and examples of different toolkit constructions, would be interesting and useful. :thumbup:

[culhwch]

I like this idea as well. While there are lots (and lots) of online resources for converting from other game systems, it'd be really nice to have a lot of that gathered in one place and in hard copy.

[Blue]

Mmmm... Hero Skins (*drool*)

Clever concept. Not something I can use, but still, if it's all about expanding the game's audience then...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Clever concept. Not something I can use, but still, if it's all about expanding the game's audience then...Keep in mind, though, there's a lot more you can do with "Hero Skins" than just having HERO mimic the look-and-feel of another existing RPG. They could tweak the HERO System's look-and-feel for any number of other purposes too. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Percentile: For the old school gamers it would be nice to see a skin based on the assumption on rolls with d100 instead of 3d6. The real rule modification would be look at a table to see which d100 roll that equals a certain 3d6 roll. This conversion is only done during character creation and when buying new stuff for the character using experience points. For simplicity a small table of recommended difficulty modifiers could be added.
[/LIST]

Erol K. Bayburt created a pretty thorough conversion of HERO dice rolls to percentile: http://www.io.com/~angilas/madlab/skillsys.html

[Chris Goodwin]

Erol K. Bayburt created a pretty thorough conversion of HERO dice rolls to percentile: http://www.io.com/~angilas/madlab/skillsys.html

If you can do it for d100, you can use it for a certain icosahedral shaped die....

[fredrik_nilsson]

I think this would make an interesting expansion book, even if it didn't make it in as part of the main rules. I think a lot more could be done with the "toolkit" aspect of HERO than most HERO players do, and material discussing approaches to doing it, and examples of different toolkit constructions, would be interesting and useful. :thumbup:
Thanks for the encouragement Derek.

I too agree that the idea that toolkitting in general needs its own book (unless it gets its own chapter in 6th edition). Not so much because the idea is so original, but rather because new (and some of us older) players might need a guiding light every now and then.

I like this idea as well. While there are lots (and lots) of online resources for converting from other game systems, it'd be really nice to have a lot of that gathered in one place and in hard copy.
Sure, there are tons of stuff online, but having some stuff already in the core book sets the tone for the future.

Mmmm... Hero Skins (*drool*)

Clever concept. Not something I can use, but still, if it's all about expanding the game's audience then...
I don’t agree in that you can’t use the idea. If you push the concept of the skin being a GUI, then all games use the skin (even if it’s only the one that come default with the system). This is especially true for games with house rules.

See also the answer to Derek’s post below.

Keep in mind, though, there's a lot more you can do with "Hero Skins" than just having HERO mimic the look-and-feel of another existing RPG. They could tweak the HERO System's look-and-feel for any number of other purposes too. :)
I fully agree with you. Skins could cover anything from “roll high vs. roll low”, via “choice of dice” and “Str 1:1 vs. Str 2:1” to “rules light vs. rules heavy”.

Another possibility could be to make skins that adjust the game for “heroic vs. superheroic”.

One could even consider integrating the “genre by genre section” with the “skins section”, so that each genre is exemplified with a skin. That would make it easier to use the hero system for a wide range of genres and power levels without a (maybe perceived) inherent conflict.

Erol K. Bayburt created a pretty thorough conversion of HERO dice rolls to percentile
This is a great example of how skins could be used.

If you can do it for d100, you can use it for a certain icosahedral shaped die....
I fully agree.

[Blue]

I don’t agree in that you can’t use the idea. If you push the concept of the skin being a GUI, then all games use the skin (even if it’s only the one that come default with the system). This is especially true for games with house rules.


I was just speaking for me personally. When I want a game with a different look and feel it's generally a conscious decision to use another system as a whole. My group play D20, WoD, and Hero. I think we consider each of these a break from the other two. The other two GMs use the other two systems and I use this one, because I like this one. No amount of "you can make it work just like the other system" is going to convince them to change.

That's what I meant by me not being able to use it.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you referred to the concept per se.

[Killer Shrike]

Sure; as you say many of us do this anyway. A published cookbook showing HERO expressions of common game mechanics from other systems would be cool, especially for those who want to do something but arent gearheaded enough to figure it out on their own.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Exactly, the idea in itself isn’t especially innovative. The reason for me bringing it up in the sixth edition forum is that I’m quite certain that most new players (unless I was amazingly slow) don’t see the true potential in the toolkitting potential in the system.

Regardless of if you call it toolkit, GUI, skin, or whatever, I think that the system would benefit from an “official” source of how to do it.

[fredrik_nilsson]

DOT SYSTEM

In the Dot System all rolls are made using six-sided dice as usual, but instead of adding the dice together the number of success are counted.


Rules

The core of the system could be summarized using the following terms; creating a dice pool, add modifiers and roll for success. Before starting the dice pool creation, all characteristics and skills needs to be converted to a corresponding number of dots:

To convert characteristics into dots, just divide the characteristic by five to get the number of dots.
Skills bought at a value equal to the characteristic roll get zero dots. For each skill point bought above the characteristic roll, the skill gets one dot. Only skills with a level of zero, or higher, may be used to form dice pools.

Each dot represents a d6 die that is added to a dice pool to roll for the task resolution. To make a characteristic roll, the dice pool just consists of the number of dots in the characteristic. To determine their dice pool for a skill check, a character adds the number of dots in the skill together with those in the most appropriate characteristic. There is one exception to this procedure. When converting 8- and 11- “familiarity skills” to the dot system they become one dot and two dots skills respectively. Being just familiarities, they can’t be used together with characteristics to form larger dice pools.

The target number for determining a success is 5, so that every d6 in the dice pool that shows 5s and 6s indicate a success. A roll of 4 or less is a Failure. As long as one success is rolled, that character has achieved his task. Five or more successes in a roll indicate an exceptional success (equal to rolling “3” on 3d6). Each time a die show a “6”, the player may reroll that die to see if any additional successes (or even rerolls) show up.

The dice pools aren’t completely static. Depending on the circumstances bonus, or penalty, dots can be added to the dice pool according to the game master’s judgment. It is not recommended to adjust the dice pool with more than five dots (in either direction). If the dice pool is lowered below one dot the player can still roll one die, but if that die fail to give a success the roll is considered a critical failure (equal to rolling “18” on 3d6).

For combat these rules are slightly changed. The dice pool is equal to two dots plus the attackers OCV minus the defenders DCV.


Example

Just set the concept in practice, this is how it could work in game:

Andarra (DEX 15) has a DEX Pool of 3 dots (15/5). She grabs the ledge if she rolls 5 or 6 on at least one of the dices in her pool.

Here’s an example on how to convert skills into dice pools:

Andarra has Concealment 12-, which equals her characteristic roll (DEX 15). That means that she has Concealment 0 dots. Had her Concealment value been 14- had her converted value been Concealment 2 dots, for a total dice pool of 5 dots.

Here’s an example of dice pool modifications:

Andarra attempts to conceal an illegal mind control helmet in her ship. The GM rules that since Andarra has a small spaceship, this attempt suffers a -1 modifier to Andarra's Concealment roll. With the -1 modifier, Andarra’s dice pool is 2 dots to successfully hide the device.

And finally, a test of how combat could work in the dot system:

Andarra fires Autofire (5 shots) blaster at an alien agent standing next to her. Andarra has a base OCV of 7, and the agent aDCV of 5. Because the attack is point-blank, there's no Range Modifiers. Andarra's Attack dice pool is 2 + 7 - 5 = 4 dots. She get three successes, hitting the agent three times.

[Chris Goodwin]

The target number for determining a success is 5, so that every d6 in the dice pool that shows 5s and 6s indicate a success. A roll of 4 or less is a Failure. As long as one success is rolled, that character has achieved his task. Five or more successes in a roll indicate an exceptional success (equal to rolling “3” on 3d6). Each time a die show a “6”, the player may reroll that die to see if any additional successes (or even rerolls) show up.

Why not just make it, count the BODY? Reuse mechanics where possible....

[fredrik_nilsson]

I just want to add some notes regarding the dot system and statistics.

One of the most defining traits about the Hero System as it currently stand is the 3d6 generated bell curve. Changing 3d6 to dice pools, as described above might feel like it will drastically change the game.

This is how the traditional system behaves:

Roll....Odds on 3d6
03....00.46%
04....01.85%
05....04.63%
06....09.26%
07....16.20%
08....25.93%
09....37.50%
10....50.00%
11....62.50%
12....74.07%
13....83.80%
14....90.74%
15....95.37%
16....98.15%
17....99.54%
18....100.00%

If we set the dice pool to a number of dice equal to d, then the chance for a success follows the equation below:

Success Rate = (6 ^ d - 4 ^ d) / 6 ^ d

For the majority of the cases, the dice pool equals the normal skill roll minus nine. For example, in the example above the 12- equaled a three dots dice pool (12-9=3). Setting d, in the equation above, to 3 gives a success rate of 70%. This is a few percent units “wrong” compared to the 3d6, and the size of that error is almost constant if 12- are modified in either direction.

That the error is almost constant is interesting, since it virtually gives an identical bell curve, despite a quite extensive modification to the system.

Why not just make it, count the BODY? Reuse mechanics where possible....
I didn't even think of it. It's an intersting idea that deserves some rep.

[Sean Waters]

This sort of thing has been mooted previously, without too much enthusiasm, but maybe the move into a bold new era is a good time to bring it back. Giving it a groovy name like 'Hero Skins' can't hurt :)

I vaguely recall conversion notes in previous editions, although I may be slipping into dementia (again).

If we can get around the licencing thing then this could be a very popular move, although it would be nice to see a Hero Skin you could slip over OTHER game systems so that you played the game but with Hero mechanics, rather than necessarily converting FROM Hero.

[Thia Halmades]

Actually, since I already do this (as do many others) I think that doing it full scale and giving people the tools (as KS said, for the non-gear heads) would be great.

[culhwch]

If we can get around the licencing thing then this could be a very popular move, although it would be nice to see a Hero Skin you could slip over OTHER game systems so that you played the game but with Hero mechanics, rather than necessarily converting FROM Hero.

I'm not sure about other game systems, but with Wizard's OGL there shouldn't be any trouble publishing a generic d20 skin.

[Sean Waters]

I'm not sure about other game systems, but with Wizard's OGL there shouldn't be any trouble publishing a generic d20 skin.

Point.

[fredrik_nilsson]

This sort of thing has been mooted previously, without too much enthusiasm, but maybe the move into a bold new era is a good time to bring it back.
As several persons – including Sean – has already noted this isn’t a revolutionary idea, or even new idea. The major change is that if Hero Games adopt this it would informal tinkering become an official part of the system. The only major changes compared to what’s included in the fifth edition are a change of the title “toolkitting” on page 559, a few notes of common “do’s and don’ts” when emulating other sources and the addition of a few examples. The majority of this can be found spread out through the book (if you know what to search for).

Considering that Hero System sell itself as “the ultimate gamers’ toolkit”. I think it might highlight that even further if the book gave a few examples.

Giving it a groovy name like 'Hero Skins' can't hurt :)
The name is far from perfect, but when I started the thread I couldn’t come up with something better without losing the connection to the inspiration (skins for PC software).

Assuming that that Hero Games adopts the idea of including the skinning technique in the book then it would fun with a naming contest on the board.

I vaguely recall conversion notes in previous editions, although I may be slipping into dementia (again).
You are at least partially correct. The fourth edition martial art book had notes for both level based systems and for the Storyteller system. The Champions comics had notes for at least V&V. I didn’t play any previous, but these sources I’ve seen afterwards.

If we can get around the licencing thing then this could be a very popular move, although it would be nice to see a Hero Skin you could slip over OTHER game systems so that you played the game but with Hero mechanics, rather than necessarily converting FROM Hero.
I think so too. If Hero Games shows the adaptability of the system, and the potential to hide/show the complicated parts of the system then the system might be easier the get a larger following. Keeping the connection with the software industry, it wasn’t until LINUX gained an accepted GUI (all the Windows/Mac OS look alikes) that it became a serious contender on the OS scene.

As a nerdy side note, if Hero Games makes this official then the Hero System moves on from just being “a system among others” to a state of mind:

Morpheus: Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Hero System is. You have to see it for yourself.

Actually, since I already do this (as do many others) I think that doing it full scale and giving people the tools (as KS said, for the non-gear heads) would be great.
If “we” should the whole way, which systems should we emulate?

I’d say that d20 is more or less a requirement, since it’s the major system (in numbers of players). Some kind of Storyteller system emulation would also be nice, and with being Steve a former White Wolf freelancer it shouldn’t be that hard to achieve.

Besides these two “giants” which others systems would be nice to emulate?

Rolemaster? Feng Shui? BESM? Previous editions of Hero System? Villains & Vigilantes? Ars Magica? GURPS? Chaosium’s basic role-playing system?

Just for the fun of it, it would be nice to see the emulation of a non role-playing game (like chess, Talisman ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talisman_%28board_game%29) or gone fishing) in hero system terms.

I'm not sure about other game systems, but with Wizard's OGL there shouldn't be any trouble publishing a generic d20 skin.
You could definitely do a full-blown d20 emulation if you wanted to, and the end result could be eerily close to M&M without too much effort (which would be nice, I guess).

If we wanted to get closer to D&D, then Killershrike’s High Fantasy ( http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.aspx) page might be a great starting point.

[Blue]

There's a problem that occurs to me that has to do with intellectual property. Would it cause legal problems if they outright said, "Here's how you simulate White Wolf's World of Darkness 'dot' system" or "This is just like Runequest...".

They'd likley have to "file off the serial numbers" in the descriptions and leave it up to the users to figure out which is the one they're trying to get to. Would those companies still sue, claiming it was infringement to give instructions on how to emulate them?

I mean, even conversion rules published in most books are sanctioned by the converter and convertee.

[Chris Goodwin]

They could certainly say, "Here's how you convert a system with stats figured on a 3-18 scale," and "Here's how you convert a system with stats figured on a percentile scale," and "Here's how you convert a system using twenty sided dice for resolution," and "Here's how you convert a system using d10 dice pools for resolution."

[Steve Long]

I think this conversation has gone about as far as it needs to go. Thanks for the idea and the input. ;)