What rpg.net is saying about 6th edition

[nexus]

For those that haven't seen it and are interested. Since it seems at least part of the goal is to draw in new players this seemed relevant. For Hero, rpg.net is New York city.

"If it can make it there, it can make it anywhere."

Link (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=379949)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I stopped reading after the 4th error in the first post. ;)

[Captain Obvious]

From my cursory examination the gist of that thread seems to be "I don't play Hero because I have no idea about even the most basic aspects of it."

[nexus]

I stopped reading after the 4th error in the first post. ;)

I don't blame you. I've been actively avoiding the thread until this point but I thought some useful insight might be gleaned from it.

[incrdbil]

You know, its a wonderful thing I've never registered over at rpg.net. I consider it a good rule for general internet purposes: never register for a community where, upon skimming, you find that your immediate reaction is an overall diminished respect for humanity in general.

[archermoo]

I stopped reading after the 4th error in the first post. ;)

Yeah, it's right up there with the old "I don't play D&D because they use real satanic rituals in the game" crap. :rolleyes:

[Supreme Serpent]

Yeah, it's right up there with the old "I don't play D&D because they use real satanic rituals in the game" crap. :rolleyes:

Exactly. I use Hero because it allows me to do rituals to the otherworldly embodiment of evil of my choice, not confining me to pre-generated Dark Lords. :thumbup:

[SAVeira]

You know, its a wonderful thing I've never registered over at rpg.net. I consider it a good rule for general internet purposes: never register for a community where, upon skimming, you find that your immediate reaction is an overall diminished respect for humanity in general.
Repped. Sadly, that is so very, very true.

[buzz]

FWIW, it's hit 14 pages. Any publicity is good publicity, as they say.

[Lord Liaden]

To be fair, there have been some reasonable comments and useful observations on that thread, and IMO some of the objections and concerns raised are worth considering. It's just as misleading to generalize RPGnetters as ignorant grognards, as it is to generalize HEROphiles as math-obsessed snobs. ;)

[archermoo]

To be fair, there have been some reasonable comments and useful observations on that thread, and IMO some of the objections and concerns raised are worth considering. It's just as misleading to generalize RPGnetters as ignorant grognards, as it is to generalize HEROphiles as math-obsessed snobs. ;)

True. However for me at least the signal to noise ratio is just too poor to make it worth my time.

[Opal]

Yes, it's relevant, and it illustrates what an uphill battle bringing in new players would be. The misconceptions are astounding. ("Just quadruple the points and you wouldn't need 1/4 modifiers." :eek: )

[Enforcer84]

Yeah, it's right up there with the old "I don't play D&D because they use real satanic rituals in the game" crap. :rolleyes:
Does that mean I can get superpowers if I play HERO? Hope hope hope.

[Toadmaster]

To be fair, there have been some reasonable comments and useful observations on that thread, and IMO some of the objections and concerns raised are worth considering. It's just as misleading to generalize RPGnetters as ignorant grognards, as it is to generalize HEROphiles as math-obsessed snobs. ;)

I would never characterize RPGnetters as grognards, far from it, they are ignorant new age gamers (rules lite, storyteller, cards instead of dice gamers). :D

[nexus]

I would never characterize RPGnetters as grognards, far from it, they are ignorant new age gamers (rules lite, storyteller, cards instead of dice gamers). :D

or Jenga towers. Lets not forget Jenga towers.

[lemming]

or Jenga towers. Lets not forget Jenga towers.
A game mechanic based on Jenga...

Reminds me of the random number generators to use if you don't have dice.

"Rip out some chest hairs, mod by six."

[Lord Liaden]

Nah, that would give high-testosterone people an unfair advantage.

[lemming]

Nah, that would give high-testosterone people an unfair advantage.
You rip out their hair, you don't have to rip your own out.

[James Gillen]

You know, its a wonderful thing I've never registered over at rpg.net. I consider it a good rule for general internet purposes: never register for a community where, upon skimming, you find that your immediate reaction is an overall diminished respect for humanity in general.

That must be why I'm registered there. I never had any respect for humanity. :D

jg

[Captain Obvious]

To be fair, there have been some reasonable comments and useful observations on that thread, and IMO some of the objections and concerns raised are worth considering. It's just as misleading to generalize RPGnetters as ignorant grognards, as it is to generalize HEROphiles as math-obsessed snobs. ;)

I won't dignify that with a comment. I have function limits to calculate. Hmph!

[nexus]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b194/potatocubed/rpgnetmotivator.jpg

And I got this from rpg.net so its fair. :D

[buzz]

or Jenga towers. Lets not forget Jenga towers.
I've played Dread, the RPG that uses Jenga. It's flippin' awesome. Don't knock it (both literally and figuratively). :)

[Blue]

I love "How hard is it to write 1m/3ft?" followed by "Books that aren't 600 pages long". Doubling the printing of measurements is a good way to reduce size.

[fredrik_nilsson]

It would be nice to see an (unbiased) summary of the most common issue with the Hero System as percieved according to RPG.net. If the 6th edition could adapt to counter all the "drawbacks", a game for the masses is more plausible.

[Susano]

I like the idea of Hero Designer with each core rule book. ^_^

[nexus]

It would be nice to see an (unbiased) summary of the most common issue with the Hero System as perceived according to RPG.net. If the 6th edition could adapt to counter all the "drawbacks", a game for the masses is more plausible.

And I believe it would resemble Hero only in the vaguest sense, perhaps only due to the logo on the cover.

[CleverName]

It would be nice to see an (unbiased) summary of the most common issue with the Hero System as percieved according to RPG.net. If the 6th edition could adapt to counter all the "drawbacks", a game for the masses is more plausible.


RPGnet can be just awful, but Fredrick is absolutely correct in that it also houses a lot of very informed gamers. Their perception, even if misinformed at times, is useful. They could balance out the sacred cow wranglers here nicely. If the purpose of 6th is to make a game that will bring more people into the fold, well, the criticism of HEROs detractors -- or even its disaffected players should be listened to.

[Pattern Ghost]

The problem is finding those informed gamers...

[ajackson]

In any case, what rpg.net seems to be saying is "make the game not as scary looking to newcomers".

[McCoy]

In any case, what rpg.net seems to be saying is "make the game not as scary looking to newcomers".
And "Math is, like, hard."

[McCoy]

It would be nice to see an (unbiased) summary of the most common issue with the Hero System as percieved according to RPG.net. If the 6th edition could adapt to counter all the "drawbacks", a game for the masses is more plausible.
Some of the percieved issues were -- quite personal and could only be resolved with a staffing change. Or multiple staffing changes.

[McCoy]

Does that mean I can get superpowers if I play HERO? Hope hope hope.
Still waiting for my radiation accident. Been 25 years now. That and my flying car. Watch. Two days after I take delivery on the flying car I'll have my radiation accident and be able to fly on my own. And we all know those flying cars lose a third of their value as soon as you fly them off the lot, I won't be able to sell it for what I owe on it, It'll just be hovering there in the garage while I pay the note and the insurance!

[ajackson]

And "Math is, like, hard."
Lemme give you a hint: responding to criticism by insulting the people making the criticism is not productive.

[caris]

And "Math is, like, hard."

Honestly, it is more like "Math is boring, and there is an awful lot of math to do there."

[McCoy]

Lemme give you a hint: responding to criticism by insulting the people making the criticism is not productive.
Let me give you a hint: if you think that was an insult you have lived an extremly sheltered life.

[Derek Hiemforth]

It would be nice to see an (unbiased) summary of the most common issue with the Hero System as percieved according to RPG.net. If the 6th edition could adapt to counter all the "drawbacks", a game for the masses is more plausible.Plausible maybe. But not desirable, IMO. I can't think of a surer way to wreck a game than to change it in ways that cater to people who dislike it, and alienate people who already love it. :)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I like the idea of Hero Designer with each core rule book. ^_^It would be great for gamers, that's for sure! ;)

Of course, it would probably be rotten for Hero Games and for Dan Simon, so I'm not sure it's really a desirable way to go. If HD was bundled with the core rules and the price of the rulebooks was increased accordingly, then Hero Games would get flooded by complaints from people who didn't like being "forced" to buy the software (or those people would skip buying the books altogether because of that). And if it was bundled "free", then Dan would lose a ton of sales to people who probably would have bought HD anyway after they bought the books.

But for everyone else? Fabulous idea! :winkgrin:

[McCoy]

It would be great for gamers, that's for sure! ;)

Of course, it would probably be rotten for Hero Games and for Dan Simon, so I'm not sure it's really a desirable way to go. If HD was bundled with the core rules and the price of the rulebooks was increased accordingly, then Hero Games would get flooded by complaints from people who didn't like being "forced" to buy the software (or those people would skip buying the books altogether because of that). And if it was bundled "free", then Dan would lose a ton of sales to people who probably would have bought HD anyway after they bought the books.

But for everyone else? Fabulous idea! :winkgrin:
In another thread
Maybe a demo version of the software, or a coupon good for a 30-day license*, needs to be included with the core rules.

*Maybe something like the last beta test, can't download the software, can just use it while signed in online.

[Derek Hiemforth]

That sounds great! :thumbup:

[fredrik_nilsson]

Just to get the ball rolling I can take the two first posts…

To that end, and considering I'm not a HERO player (yet), here's what would get me to play it:

- get rid of 1/4 points and other ridiculously picky stuff like that. Just use whole points.
- reduce the abbreviations. OCV. DVC. ED. FW. Whatever. Everything has an abbreviation.
- Combine Body and Con or make Body dependent on Con.
- Drop the whole characteristics roll being different than the characteristic value.
- use both the metric and imperial system. How hard is it to write 1m/3ft?
- more attractive artwork and layout
- books that aren't 600 pages long.
Looking at Vivsavage’s list I can directly see two of the threads already active here (metric vs. imperial and one 600 pages book vs. two 300 pages books). The artwork/layout discussion has been a part of this board (at least) since my arrival.

That leaves quarter-points, abbreviations, Body/Con and “characteristics roll vs. characteristic value”.

The quarter-points issue might either be due to his math skill or due to poorly defined rules. For simplicity we can assume that the rules appear a bit vague to newcomers. The easiest way to fix this “problem” would be to include an extra example that shows how rounding works.

Abbreviations are a real issue. I became involved with this system approximately five years ago, so I still remember the hassle of both learning and finding all the stuff that the abbreviations referred. The “adjustment period” wasn’t that long, but it was still a period I could have done without so I would be totally for lessening on the abbreviation part of the system. Unless an abbreviation doesn’t help ease the reading of the text a lot, try to avoid it.

The Body/Con issue is more on a personal preference level (and I don’t agree with him), so we can skip that part. If anything should be said about that issue it would be that 6th edition needs to highlight that Body is equal to hit points, as some systems call Constitution Body (for example, tri-stat).

That leaves one subject “roll vs. value”. The only thing that I can say about that now is that a short text describing the “pros and cons” of differing between “roll vs. value” (like steps of five doubles makes for easy comparison between stats).

[fredrik_nilsson]

And the next one...

Spoken as a Hero System player for 25+ years: a character sheet that doesn't scare the hell out of newbies.
I've been trying to do that for years (although I really haven't put too much effort into it) but the complexity of the sheet does scare the bejeezus out of people who see it.
This is might just be a template thing (in Hero Designer), but still it’s a valid point.

One of the most appealing things about the storyteller system is how easy it is to introduce casual (or even new) players. Basically just describe how dice pools work and give them a pre-made character sheet. That is not possible in the hero system as it is today.

I haven’t got a clue of how to solve this, but I guess a lot of the information on the default sheet could be removed for a newbie (like combat maneuvers).

[ajackson]

Let me give you a hint: if you think that was an insult you have lived an extremly sheltered life.
It was an insult. A pretty mild one, mind you, but an insult.

If people complain about some aspect of a system, that means they don't like that aspect of the system. As an RPG is an entertainment product, if people don't like that product, they don't buy it. If your goal is to sell more copies of a game, it's worth finding out why people don't buy it.

This doesn't mean that fixing what they're complaining about is the right decision, mind you. However, denigrating the people who dislike the system won't get them to buy it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I haven’t got a clue of how to solve this, but I guess a lot of the information on the default sheet could be removed for a newbie (like combat maneuvers).It might be worth taking everything off the sheet that isn't specific to the character. What we have now if basically a combination character sheet and "combat and adventuring quick-reference." Maybe we could just make the combat and adventuring quick reference a separate sheet, so new players realize it's just a reference they can consult... not stuff about their character that they should be trying to memorize. :)

By the way, Fredrik, I think I understand better what you meant about addressing their dislikes about the game. If we can isolate misconceptions that could be cleared up with a different presentation, that would seem totally worth doing. :thumbup:

[fredrik_nilsson]

It might be worth taking everything off the sheet that isn't specific to the character. What we have now if basically a combination character sheet and "combat and adventuring quick-reference." Maybe we could just make the combat and adventuring quick reference a separate sheet, so new players realize it's just a reference they can consult... not stuff about their character that they should be trying to memorize. :)
I totally agree. We could still have the current character sheet available as a PDF, but at least in the basic book your approach might be better.

By the way, Fredrik, I think I understand better what you meant about addressing their dislikes about the game. If we can isolate misconceptions that could be cleared up with a different presentation, that would seem totally worth doing. :thumbup:
Sorry for the confusion. My English isn’t that good. Translation word by word is often quite easy, but making the words “flow” take a lot of practice.

[mirage]

For those that haven't seen it and are interested. Since it seems at least part of the goal is to draw in new players this seemed relevant. For Hero, rpg.net is New York city.

"If it can make it there, it can make it anywhere."

Link (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=379949)

If you mean a site infested by people who can't understand elementary school math?

[Toadmaster]

I love "How hard is it to write 1m/3ft?" followed by "Books that aren't 600 pages long". Doubling the printing of measurements is a good way to reduce size.

I'm sure they will just love it if 6th turns out to be two books each 600 pages long. :D

They really need to take a page from Douglas Adams, in large block letters put the following words on the cover.

DON'T PANIC

[Pattern Ghost]

I tried to wade through that thread earlier, but I couldn't bear more than a few pages.

The only thing I got out of the thread was that people don't like the game because a) it looks intimidating, or b) they really don't have a freaking clue.

Seriously, RPG.net is full of b's. We can't address their concerns, really, since they're either stupid or irrational people. Which leaves the a's.

I agree on the character sheet. It has a ton of combat and quick reference info that doesn't have to be there. Bring back the cleaner sheet with the selection of outlines to doodle your costume on. That one was much friendlier-looking.

As far as addressing other misconceptions, I'm not as sure. Paring down the skeleton of the system and putting it in a front section as a Quick Start type of thing may help. Really, nothing in the game is complicated, not the die rolling systems nor the math. NOTHING. The game is far simpler to learn than DnD 3/3.5, which much less to memorize after you learn basic concepts.

But the book doesn't reward how most people read a new game book, which is by skimming. Hero is not a game you can skim along, so... make the mechanics shorter and shove them up front.

An extended example of play is needed, covering EVERYTHING, from character creation to setting up a sample campaign, to roleplay and combat examples. It can be sidebarred, stuffed as a continuing story at the end of each book chapter, put in an appendix, or put up front. However it's incorporated, it should be very obvious what it is, and why it's there. All the sidebar examples are great in 5th, BUT they are not a cohesive unit. They add to confusion for skimmers.

Acronyms are not an issue. Every freaking game has acronyms. A short chart of terms early on solves that.

Approachability is definitely something that should be on the table for 6th Ed. I don't believe changing game mechanics is the answer, so much as presentation and layout are.

[James Gillen]

Let me give you a hint: if you think that was an insult you have lived an extremly sheltered life.

It's certainly not an insult by RPG.net standards. ;)

jg

[James Gillen]

If you mean a site infested by people who can't understand elementary school math?

Yeah... I almost got into a pissing match with some guy- who apparently works at Eden Studios- who got offended by my suggestion that even if HERO takes a lot of math, it's fifth grade math. His reaction was basically, "When I say it's too complex, some Hero fanboi usually suggests, 'maybe it would be easy if you were SMART'." Like that's what I said. I don't consider myself very skilled in math, so my point is that if *I* can do this stuff, anybody could. It's insulting to act otherwise. Not only insulting to intelligence in general, but to the idea that they're something wrong with you if you USE fifth-grade math. It's like being accused of "acting white." By a fellow white guy. :D

JG

[James Gillen]

Acronyms are not an issue. Every freaking game has acronyms. A short chart of terms early on solves that.

If you, like many gamers, have experience in police, security or the military, use of acronyms is SOP.


Approachability is definitely something that should be on the table for 6th Ed. I don't believe changing game mechanics is the answer, so much as presentation and layout are.

Something I emphasized there at least once.

JG

[fredrik_nilsson]

If you, like many gamers, have experience in police, security or the military, use of acronyms is SOP.
I've been in the military, but that doesn't mean I like acronyms (not that you implied such a connection). Point is that for a book that intimidate people just by it size, opening up the book to soemthing that first seem like a foreign language doesn't really lessen the stress.

OTOH, the game's appeal is its combination of comprehensiveness and detail. And you probably can't streamline it much without loosing that -as I understand it, the book is 600 pages because that is the minimum number of pages they could shoe-horn it into.
They could certainly reduce the size of the skill/talent/power descriptions.
This is both a repeat of the “one book vs. two books” discussion and a wish for less detail.

I’m sure agree with that hero needs less detail, but it might be worth considering adding a short description of each skill/talent/power in the list at the beginning of each chapter. For experienced players that description might be sufficient for fast reference and for new, and/or “rules light,” players the text might be less intimidating.

If they want to please the most customers they probably should use the d20 system
Provided that Hero Games include the Hero Skin option (see another thread) in the core book, this is no longer an issue. It is possible to make the similarity with d20 very close. It might also be worth considering using the d20 SRD to Hero Systems benefit. Write up some kind of conversion system between 20 and Hero System. It doesn’t have to be extremely detail.

If the lack of time to spare is an issue for Hero Games, I (hopefully with some ones help) can create the conversion sheet.

I don´t think you can follow the current avantgarde tastes too far without loosing what defines Hero or rather without entering the territory of another, lighter point buy system.
This “problem” could also be handled with Hero Skins.

Personally I have problems with the linear and in relation cheap attribute and skill costs in many genre.
Attributes (characteristics I take it) are handled in another thread.

I haven’t read the Ultimate Skill, so this might be handled elsewhere. If not, how about an optional rule about changing the skill cost depending on previous proficiency and/or genre?

The big emphasis on powers is just too strong.
I know that this probably isn’t the cup of tea for the “old guard” of this board, but just to please Maarzan why don’t we could talk about the pros and cons of the following thought experiment:

Assume that Hero System will be based on three books; basic (player’s book with core rules, the default hero skin and a bunch of class/cultural/racial templates), advanced (GM guide with additional hero skins and storytelling section) and bestiary (monster manual plus extra templates).

All powers are removed are placed in the advanced book, making the talents more important (sort of like feats and spells in d20’s PHB). In the power section in the advanced book all the talents are taken as example powers (complete with suggestions on how to modify them).

Would that remove some of Hero System’s intimidation factor?

But it is a great mine for ideas to use elsewhere.
This is an interesting comment. Previously GURPS held this role, but with the fourth edition it might have lost some of its former customer base.

Is it possible to separate the rules text from the other text even more in the genre and ultimate books to get a bigger customer base for Hero System?

I also liked the skill packages better in 4th.
I’ve never played the fourth edition, but Steve has already ruled out all “going backs”. Maybe a retro hero skin could be composed for the nostalgias?

Adding smaller side effects also seems to be too expensive.
This has been spoken of in another sixth edition thread by Steve himself.

[Pattern Ghost]

If you, like many gamers, have experience in police, security or the military, use of acronyms is SOP.
JG

I must spread some rep around, but that made me laugh. :rofl:

[nexus]

Yeah... I almost got into a pissing match with some guy- who apparently works at Eden Studios- who got offended by my suggestion that even if HERO takes a lot of math, it's fifth grade math. His reaction was basically, "When I say it's too complex, some Hero fanboi usually suggests, 'maybe it would be easy if you were SMART'." Like that's what I said. I don't consider myself very skilled in math, so my point is that if *I* can do this stuff, anybody could. It's insulting to act otherwise. Not only insulting to intelligence in general, but to the idea that they're something wrong with you if you USE fifth-grade math. It's like being accused of "acting white." By a fellow white guy. :D

JG

He works for Eden, the makers of "All Flesh Must be Eaten"... the game with more than a little of the same simple math that Heroes requires? I won't say it's the same amount but it's definitely there.

[fredrik_nilsson]

After this post the first page of the RPG.net thread is handled.

-I don't mind if the construction rules do not change, I mean with Hero designer, making characters is very easy (in fact, HD should come with the Rule book)
With Hero Designer character creation is easier by far, but as already has been handled in this thread it can’t be added with the without price issues. I guess you could sell HD and the core book(s) bundled in the online store. Coupons could work, provided you only sell the system in Northern America (due to postage costs) or make the coupon usable over the net.

-Make sure that the versatility is not diminished in any way.
As already has been said repeatable sixth edition should mostly be about approachability and not lessened versatility.

-Try to find a way to deal with combats at least with half the time investment.
This was written about already in the fifth edition, but that was several years ago so I guess “we” have learned some new stuff since then.

I guess Paqman’s wish has some validity.

Other than that, I was happy with the system since it allowed me to do anything... thinking about it, BESM has almost the same level of versatility and let me do almost anything I can imagine... Could it be that Hero could by simpler? have less stats, less modifiers.... not sure.
Once again, this could be handled be skins (pre-made packages with optional rules).

But the above suggestion to get rid of fractions in character creation would be nice. Provide PCs with 4 times the amount of base points and get rid of quarter and half modifiers.
This has already been spoken of earlier in this thread. Just clarify with an example, and the problem should be solved.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here come my thoughts on page two. Unfortunately page two included more personal taste issues than direct critic (neither positive nor negative), so the summary is quite short.

There are no quarter-points for example, so they can't really be got rid of.
Then maybe I'm confused. I'm referring to stuff like this spell description:
Spell of Blinding Light
Sight Group Flash 10d6 (50 Active Pts)
OAF Expendable (sunstone - 1 1/4 pts)
Incantations (-1/4)
Gestures (-1/4)
Requires a Magic Roll (-1/2)
Total Cost: 15 pts

Further, a newbie who sees this is going to be a bit overwhelmed. "Jeez, I just wanted a spell description, not a scientific breakdown!"
This quote both highlights the increased need for examples of power creation (not just pre-made write ups, but also going through the process a few times) and a real problem with the system. When creating powers (or super-skills or psionics or towels) you get a very detailed description of what you just have done.

A few words about how the power write up could shorten down on the character sheet might be wise. I know that is a no-brainer, but we want to make the system more approachable to new players. Take for example focus, most of the time its quite clear if a power has a focus or not, so you don’t need to write it on the character sheet (even if you use it in the calculations).

Another approach could be to follow GURPS Character Assistant’s example in Hero Designer and use all power modifiers in all calculation, but let the player chose if the modifiers should be shown on the character sheet or not. I guess you could that today using templates, but I would prefer it if it were easier than that.

Yet another approach could be to introduce “modifier packages”; groups of common pre-calculate modifiers. Take ranged weapons as an example; they almost always have the same limitations. The book could include both the total modifier and a list with what’s included in the total (somewhat like how talents are presented today). On the character sheet you just write down “Ranged weapon (-2)” instead of all the modifiers.

Naturally all ideas could be combined.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here comes the summary for the third page.

To that end, and considering I'm not a HERO player (yet), here's what would get me to play it…
Considering I'm a 26-year veteran of HERO, here's what would get me to play it:

A fundamental re-building of the system from the ground up that incorporates at least some contemporary design philosophy

I.e., what I'm looking for goes way beyond tweaking points costs and combining stats. HERO hasn't ever really seen a serious revision, so I think it's about time.
Yet another valid point; the hero system’s love of backward compatibility is a cursed blessing (is that how you say it?). On one hand you can use ancient gaming tomes from pre-fourth edition, but on the other side you get the quirks from previous incarnations of the game.

Had the Hero System been an operating system, I’m quite certain that it had been Windows. If all the game gets with the sixth edition is increased user friendliness, with no changes in the core design, I’m fully convinced that it is Windows.

I’m not saying this to start a flame war. What I’m trying to say is that Hero Games can’t act like Palladium Books, and believe that it got it completely right on the first try.

If Hero Games use the cute girl sitting on the floor with the laptop from the old Guardians of Order ads in their advertisement I will buy 6E. If not, forget it! :)
In a way this actually makes some sense.

Hero System is a great toolkit, and after twenty-something years that is quite well known, yet the game fail to reach the masses. Maybe some other aspect needs to get more focus. GURPS tried the Infinite Worlds approach. The old World of Darkness was very much into the gothic-punk version of personal horror to the extent that rules became secondary, yet the storyteller system has become well known (even outside the games’ target audience).

If the sixth edition of the Hero System are to appeal to the masses marketing needs a bigger focus.

[Acid_Crash]

A hot girl on the cover would get some better focus. ;)

More seriously, even if 6th edition was just a complete reorganization with better artwork, better layout and better implementation of organization between the covers, written in a more 'easier to read' way, then I'd be all for that...

It needs to be toned down from the technical-text book approach that 5th edition is known for.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Even if the fourth page sometime went into a rather "unpleasant" tone (as in critic just becasue I can) sometimes, there were a few interesting posts.

I've used Hero in the past and enjoyed it then, now days I prefer simpler systems since for me they return the same results without the work Hero requires.

Any changes to Hero that I'd like would abandon the current fandom completely, and that is frankly unwise. Hero may not be the game for me, and there is no sense trying to earn me as a fan again by rejecting those who continue to be fans. (In simpler terms it wouldn't look like HERO to most people when changes I'd like were made, so no reason to bother.)
I guess this could be fixed with a hero skin, but I’ve lost track of what exactly he found lacking in the system. If he just wants a rules light game, then it’s a hero skin issue, if not I’m not sure.

One other thing I would add to my list: present it in such a way as to add more emphasis to an immersive gaming experience rather than a mathematics endeavor. Reading HERO doesn't make me think of roleplaying, it makes me think of homework.
Vivsavage once again brings up a valid point regarding presentation. In the fifth edition of the book reading the rules felt like reading my science books, but Hero Games’ authors has improved a lot since then.

Try to bring up a feel for what the in game effect is of a certain action, not the rule the effect. Take White Wolf’s book, when the present a new skill they beginning with a short “story” showing the skill in use. Those stories work as story seeds for me (and I’m probably not alone).

It's still very unintuitive to me, to be honest. HERO's ruleset seems so arcane somehow. Not very contemporary and certainly not 'friendly'? I understand it is a marvelous toolbox for creating anything you an imagine, but sometimes I feel awfully stupid when I try to understand it. I still don't really understand what real cost vs active cost is...
Unfortunately putting all those modifiers on the sheet is the requirement for being able to design a power from the ground up. It's absolutely necessary for the GM if not for the player, but it basically means seeing the "wires" behind the magic trick.
This was already mentioned on the previous summary, but since the wish for less detail on the character sheet popped up again I might as well write it again.

I feel like that's the job of the genre sourcebooks and, honestly, not a job a number of them have done well. Thorough does not equal evocative or inspirational. One of the big problems I've had with the direction of the Champions line in the DOJ era has been a move towards what I call "Superhero-Shaped Roleplaying" instead of Superheroic Roleplaying. All of the surface appearances are present: guys and gals in costume, villainy afoot, unusual happenings, but it's all just sort of blah and contained, as if the mad, beautiful ideas that make superhero comics so damned fun (when done right) have all been collected, quantified, labeled, and handed out in measured doses according to a checklist.

Certainly, there have been exceptions in the product line, but for the most part, it's all rather drab, especially when contrasted with some of the competitors' settings and sourcebooks.
Theron adds to what Vivsavage already has pointed to above. When Hero Games presents rules, they should try to do it from a more “storywise” perspective.

[caris]

It would be great for gamers, that's for sure! ;)

Of course, it would probably be rotten for Hero Games and for Dan Simon, so I'm not sure it's really a desirable way to go. If HD was bundled with the core rules and the price of the rulebooks was increased accordingly, then Hero Games would get flooded by complaints from people who didn't like being "forced" to buy the software (or those people would skip buying the books altogether because of that). And if it was bundled "free", then Dan would lose a ton of sales to people who probably would have bought HD anyway after they bought the books.

But for everyone else? Fabulous idea! :winkgrin:


Not necessarily, your reasoning is sound but incomplete. If the per unit cost of the Hero Designer add on cost to the consumer is low enough most people will not complain even if they do not use the software. If the actually number of units sold of the bundled version are high enough than Dan can lower the per unit cost at no negative impact to himself. An added benefit to Dan is that he could charge DoJ upfront for those licenses which shift the risk to DoJ.

The real issue is this now makes Hero Design very much something that DoJ is selling as opposed to a project produced by a very close and friendly third party. This makes it even harder for DoJ to distance themselves in the minds of the consumer from that third party.

[fredrik_nilsson]

The fifth page has hardly any posts that have any real value (from a creative process point of view), but I found few…

Admittedly, believe it or not, they have gotten better about this. Earlier versions of the rules even had "Pointman" giving sidebar essays about how to shave off points while remaining effective via utilizing odd numbers for your stats, etc.

It's made strides in the years since, but, yeah....homework. :(
As I’ve written before the homework feel, is a real baggage for the hero system. Most role players are smart enough to do simple math. I guess the math issue is more a symptom of this problem, than a problem in itself.

A lot of people do not realize this but HERO is really two games:

Game 1: A universal point-based RPG designed to emulate a lot of different genres - though not always doing all of them adequately, IMO. The game is tactical and versatile enough so that people do not need to feel any "Class" constraints that they might feel from other systems.

Game 2: A "build characters" game that allows people who are not currently playing in games to spend hours expressing their RPG creativity in a manner they find satisfying. People might roll-up characters in other games but it is not the same as building exactly what you want from the ground up.

HERO players are HERO players because they like Game 2 just as much as Game 1 - some might even like it more. :)
I wouldn’t agree in this. Most Hero Gamers are fully aware of this. The problem is that non-hero gamers think that it takes time away from the storytelling part (which depends totally of the gaming group). If I were Steve Long, I would mention a few lines of that it (game #2) is a game played on the boards, but not so much outside the boards.

It’s not like it needs toned down or anything, but if someone please it to ruin role part of role-playing then it might scare of a few potential players.

The trick is that I wanted to understand HERO. I *REALLY* wanted to understand it. I wanted to use it and like it. I love the concept of making and applying your own powers. The book felt "right" in my hand.

I just couldn't penetrate the jargon. Points and active points? Characteristic maxima? OAF with the OCV and the OPP? WTF?!
Another way of saying the same thing that several people already has said. The heavy use of acronyms heightens the text book feel.

Math, I dont' mind so much- I like to design mecha with Mekton Zeta, and it's a pretty crunchy system.
This (sort of) underlines my guess that math is the real problem.

5th just isn't designed with someone who wasn't weened on Champions. I've since aquired a copy of Sidekick. It isn't either.
I felt the same when I was new to the Hero System.

It's got to be easy on the eyes. I'm not talking full color art with glossy pages or anything. I'm talking designed to be *easy* to *read*. Layout. Hire someone with a good narrative style. CJ Carrella, f'rex.
I agree in that some fresh talent my be good, and C. J. Carella is a great writer (but I would prefer Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore or someone from White Wolf [hasn’t Justin Achilli gone freelance?]). Not so much because the current pool of talent is lacking (which I don’t think it has), but rather to get some fresh eyes.

Part 2 of the above: EASE UP ON THE FREAKING JARGON. I do NOT care if it reduces the word count. I, as a new player, do NOT need fifty billion acronyms staring me in the face when I open it up to any given page.
Skip the all caps words, and you see the same comment again.

Don't just expect me to jump into everything at full speed. Start people out with "Okay, this is how you make a character, and here's our example character, Captain Obvious. First, you choose his stats by spending points..." and then after every step of the process, apply that portion to your running total of Captain Amazing's character generation. No, I'm not a five year old, but if the system is this complicated, then I want you to explain it to me as if I was.
The requirement to include character creation examples has been a part of the sixth edition discussion from day one (I think).

If software is freaking needed, then by any, every, and all possible means include a copy of that software with the book.
Software isn’t required (but preferred) and this has already been spoken of before.

This one isn't by my direct experience, but it comes up so often that i feel the need to address it: Speed up combat. Seriously. Every single discussion of Hero that I read/hear is dominated by the phrase "combat takes four hours".
This has also been talked about elsewhere.

- Get rid of Comeliness. I woudn't mind Figured Chars going the way of the dodo, either.
Comeliness is handled elsewhere, but in case Mr. Long reads this; either remove or improve Com. Well, I can talk more in dtail about this in the correct thread.

- Fix the Stun Lotto.
My group uses hit locations, so for us is STUN not akin to lotto. I guess someone else know what he refers to.

- Consolidate the skills list, possibly introducing meta-skills like "Science!".
Science was a bad example, since it’s already there, but I guess you could trim the list somewhat.

- Get rid of characteristic breakpoints. Yes, this would require altering the characteristic scales and making the granularity a wee bit coarser (but not by much really).
Other scales for the Characteristics would surely be possible using skins without having to alter the entire system.

- A quicker damage resolution system would be nifty, though part of me just lurves the physical act of pouring all those dice on the table when you manage to land an Haymaker. :D
Combat speed again!

- Other minor fixes like consolidating HTH Block and ranged Deflection/Reflection.
I’m not really certain what he means here, for me this doesn’t really make sense. What am I missing?

Not necessarily, your reasoning is sound but incomplete. If the per unit cost of the Hero Designer add on cost to the consumer is low enough most people will not complain even if they do not use the software. If the actually number of units sold of the bundled version are high enough than Dan can lower the per unit cost at no negative impact to himself. An added benefit to Dan is that he could charge DoJ upfront for those licenses which shift the risk to DoJ.
I agree.

[fredrik_nilsson]

This was the only constructive I could find on page six…
Re-costing things to make sense.

DEX is ridiculously undercosted. 1 DEX costs 3 points and gives: 1/3 of a universal OCV level (value 5/3 pts), 1/3 of a universal DCV level (value 5/3 pts), and already it's more than paid for itself before we even get to 1/10 of a SPD (value 10/10 pts), 1/5 of a DEX-based Skills level (value 5/5 pts) and a point of initiative (value ???). DEX is worth 5-6 points per point, almost twice what it actually costs.

CON is also undercosted, but also almost superfluous. 2 points of CON buys 2.1 points of figured stats, and a point of stun threshold... and nothing else. You could seriously eliminate CON altogether, set stun threshold based on BODY (or some proportion of STUN), and just make people buy the figured stats.
This is handled in another thread.

[CourtFool]

If you, like many gamers, have experience in police, security or the military, use of acronyms is SOP.

This from people who have no problem with LOL.

[Susano]

I wouldn’t agree in this. Most Hero Gamers are fully aware of this. The problem is that non-hero gamers think that it takes time away from the storytelling part (which depends totally of the gaming group). If I were Steve Long, I would mention a few lines of that it (game #2) is a game played on the boards, but not so much outside the boards.


I disagree. I built characters for fun, for years, before there was a HERO Boards. I know others who have done the same.

[nexus]

I’m not really certain what he means here, for me this doesn’t really make sense. What am I missing?


The Power Missile Deflection in Hero is basically a Block Maneuver like in hand to hand combat except you can use it against Ranged attacks. He's suggested consolidating those abilities in some fashion since they're closely related mechanically.

Frankly, I'm not getting the acronym's thing. Practically all games are chockful of jargon including some of the rpg.net Darlings. (Weapons of the Gods, Exalted, even a few of the "rules-lite" games), a few of them start using it -before- its defined. And if Offensive Combat Value and Hand to Hand Killing attack was spelled out every time there'd be just as much complaining about the overly wordy rules and "textbook" feel of the game. Hell, for that matter, the internet is full of acronyms and jargon with new ones popping up every other day. WTF? Amitrite? LOL!

[nexus]

I disagree. I built characters for fun, for years, before there was a HERO Boards. I know others who have done the same.

Same here. I've got folders full of characters I did for fun.

[Susano]

The Power Missile Deflection in Hero is basically a Block Maneuver like in hand to hand combat except you can use it against Ranged attacks. He's suggested consolidating those abilities in some fashion since they're closely related mechanically.

Frankly, I'm not getting the acronym's thing. Practically all games are chockful of jargon including some of the rpg.net Darlings. (Weapons of the Gods, Exalted, even a few of the "rules-lite" games), a few of them start using it -before- its defined. And if Offensive Combat Value and Hand to Hand Killing attack was spelled out every time there'd be just as much complaining about the overly wordy rules and "textbook" feel of the game.

Oh, and if Weapons of the Gods is an rpg.net "darling" then someone has a very skewed idea of what represents a clearly-explained rules system. WotG is a beautiful book, with great flavor text and the like, but I'll be damned if I know how you really create a character or run the system. Seriously. They make these jumps from A to B to D and for the life of me I don't see C in there anywhere.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Nothing of use was found on page seven, so these are comments regarding page eight.

I'm in the same boat as Buzz.
The thing that Storn Cook refers to is that this time Hero System needs a more through overhaul than last time and I agree with them both.

I haven't read through the thread yet... but if it's not fully backwards compatible, I'm not buying any HERO 6th edition stuff.
Well, I’m not so sure about this one. If Hero Game saves too much of the old stuff for backward compatibility, why should they go to sixth edition? Still I don’t want to change the game beyond what’s recognizable either.

- now there's a suggestion for HERO - make 0 end the default, and just give limitations for 'costs END' - nothing kills a superhero combat like "OK...I need to mark down 3 END for my strength and 6 more from my Flaming Fists of Fury...now I get a Recovery so I get six back..."
I fully agree. Cost END should be a limitation for all powers, with 0 END as the default.

[SAVeira]

Same here. I've got folders full of characters I did for fun.
Mark me down as the same as well.

[nexus]

Oh, and if Weapons of the Gods is an rpg.net "darling" then someone has a very skewed idea of what represents a clearly-explained rules system. WotG is a beautiful book, with great flavor text and the like, but I'll be damned if I know how you really create a character of run the system. Seriously. They make these jumps from A to B to D and for the life of me I don't see C in there anywhere.

Totally agreed. I love the book, love the genre, the setting seems awesome. I have yet to figure out the rules work beyond a vague notion. The book introduces concepts pages before they are ever defined, for one thing but I didn't want go off on a tangent about it.

[nexus]

The big issue here is that you can't please everyone and generally if you try you end up pleasing no one. DOJ is walking a tight rope between those extremes. While rpg.net could provide some insights, well, I'm just going to say it most of the vocal posters there seem to desire some very different things out of their gaming experience. Thats not a bad thing, fun is subjective but adjusting Hero to fully fit their wishes might (probably, IMO) would make the game somewhat unrecognizable and lose allot of the old guard.

And it still might not bring in many new players. Rpg.net represents a different "school" of gamer, IMO, but it's not necessarily more mainstream than the Hero boards. Frankly, the mainstream are the vast majority quietly playing The double D game.

[Paragon]

Oh, and if Weapons of the Gods is an rpg.net "darling" then someone has a very skewed idea of what represents a clearly-explained rules system. WotG is a beautiful book, with great flavor text and the like, but I'll be damned if I know how you really create a character or run the system. Seriously. They make these jumps from A to B to D and for the life of me I don't see C in there anywhere.

Well, don't forget that RPG.net is a very large populace with a wide variety of tastes. The people who are WOTG fans may not be the ones bitching about clarity.

There's been a certain hostility toward Hero on there for a long time, probably on the simple basis that high-crunch games aren't a big favorite there; its actually less severe than it used to be. But the raw variety of gamers and expectations there mean any thread on it is going to get some really wide reactions, some of them irrational, some rational only within a certain mindset.

That said, they're probably closer to what the gaming populace as a whole views about Hero than anyone on here is likely to be, for self-evident reasons; that doesn't mean they're necessarily particularly close (given demographics, you'd probably get a better overall picture from going on ENWorld) but there it is.

[steamteck]

One of the most appealing things about the storyteller system is how easy it is to introduce casual (or even new) players. Basically just describe how dice pools work and give them a pre-made character sheet. That is not possible in the hero system as it is today.

.

Maybe its a veteran gamer thing but my group grasped HERO quicker than Storyteller. ( and hated hated hated Storyteller once they got it but that's not relevant) I know there's always an exception to the rule.

Still the point is valid but I think its presentation as much as anything even D&D/D20 has tons of arcane abbreviations. still little slimming might be needed but nothing radical.

[nexus]

Well, don't forget that RPG.net is a very large populace with a wide variety of tastes. The people who are WOTG fans may not be the ones bitching about clarity.

There's been a certain hostility toward Hero on there for a long time, probably on the simple basis that high-crunch games aren't a big favorite there; its actually less severe than it used to be.

The reaction to Hero has gotten better on rpg.net as I've said before but its still something of a whipping boy. At least now you can actually start a thread about Hero that doesn't collapse into a flame war three or four pages in. It's more a casual dismissal and disregard than out and out hostility now except for a few individuals that act like they caught Steve Long sleeping with their SO then he fled the scene their car and ran over their dog in the process.

Some of them are ex Hero fans, but its painfully obvious many of them haven't done more than flip through a Hero book, if that much and our parroting the same tripe they've heard.

[Paragon]

Maybe its a veteran gamer thing but my group grasped HERO quicker than Storyteller. ( and hated hated hated Storyteller once they got it but that's not relevant) I know there's always an exception to the rule.

Still the point is valid but I think its presentation as much as anything even D&D/D20 has tons of arcane abbreviations. still little slimming might be needed but nothing radical.

I think its mostly the perception that you have to understand the guts of Hero before you can use it effectively. I think there's about three reasons for that:

1. Hero has a lot of moving parts compared to many games; using Storyteller as an example, for the most part, you have attributes and skills (which operate usually on about the same scale and use the same nomenclature), Backgrounds and Kewl Powerz. The latter are usually incredibly idiosyncratic, but there's no question in most of them that you're only going to engage with a sharply limited number, probably constrained by earlier character choices (Exalted being the obvious exception to that).

2. Character Generation is pretty much freeform. That's a virtue to most of us, but it does up decision load; its always going to be easier to just decide how to distribute within subcategories than to have one big pool and have to decide what gets what. It also constrains characters more, but that isn't necessarily a big deal to some people.

3. Hero Characters are usually relatively advanced out the gate. I suspect if D20 characters were all built at 12th level, you'd get a lot of bitching and moaning there, too, but most people get to get into it gradually, because they start out at the bottom where there's relatively few things to keep track of. Even a heroic scale character, on the other hand, has a lot of capability and a lot of options at build.

This is aside of the presentation and math issues; like it or not, a lot of people clearly don't like dealing with division or multiplication in character generation, and the 4e and up books could be pretty intimidating (ironically, I think one of the virtues of 5e hurt it here; all the examples bulk the book up non-trivially, and on a cursory glance can make the text appear even more dense than it already is; the fact they make it far easier for a newbie to figure out what to do with it once he's chewing through it doesn't help that).

[Paragon]

The reaction to Hero has gotten better on rpg.net as I've said before but its still something of a whipping boy. At least now you can actually start a thread about Hero that doesn't collapse into a flame war three or four pages in. It's more a casual dismissal and disregard than out and out hostility now except for a few individuals that act like they caught Steve Long sleeping with their SO then he fled the scene their car and ran over their dog in the process.


There's always some people who just have a hate-on for a given game system for one reason or another, just like there's always some people who are kneejerk defenders. Both tend to be drawn out by dedicated threads.

[Susano]

There's always some people who just have a hate-on for a given game system for one reason or another, just like there's always some people who are kneejerk defenders. Both tend to be drawn out by dedicated threads.

Yeah, my hate for D02 knows no limit.

[nexus]

Yeah, my hate for D02 knows no limit.

But how about your hat of d20? ;) :)

[Lord Liaden]

Keep in mind that the thread is entitled, "HERO 6th edition: what would get you to play it?" IMO that unfortunate choice of wording practically invites HERO-haters to add their snarks.

[Thia Halmades]

Here come my thoughts on page two. Unfortunately page two included more personal taste issues than direct critic (neither positive nor negative), so the summary is quite short.


This quote both highlights the increased need for examples of power creation (not just pre-made write ups, but also going through the process a few times) and a real problem with the system. When creating powers (or super-skills or psionics or towels) you get a very detailed description of what you just have done.

A few words about how the power write up could shorten down on the character sheet might be wise. I know that is a no-brainer, but we want to make the system more approachable to new players. Take for example focus, most of the time its quite clear if a power has a focus or not, so you don’t need to write it on the character sheet (even if you use it in the calculations).

Another approach could be to follow GURPS Character Assistant’s example in Hero Designer and use all power modifiers in all calculation, but let the player chose if the modifiers should be shown on the character sheet or not. I guess you could that today using templates, but I would prefer it if it were easier than that.

Yet another approach could be to introduce “modifier packages”; groups of common pre-calculate modifiers. Take ranged weapons as an example; they almost always have the same limitations. The book could include both the total modifier and a list with what’s included in the total (somewhat like how talents are presented today). On the character sheet you just write down “Ranged weapon (-2)” instead of all the modifiers.

Naturally all ideas could be combined.

See, I found this extremely interesting, because d20 uses the same damn thing. Every spell you pick up in d20 has the following notation: V, S, M; Verbal, Somatic, Material. Said another way:

Gestures, Incantations, Focus. So they ARE the same from that perspective. Sure, the language is different because the costing is different. d20, no access to the math. HERO? Access to the math. Spells in d20 don't "Require a Skill Roll" because they get saving throws, and beyond Saves, some have Spell Resistance, which includes all kinds of other things. Extra Time? Exists in d20, in a slot under "Casting Time," and any additional (or multiple) effects are listed in the text.

It's a weaksauce argument. We're using the same concepts, different lingo.

[Paragon]

Yeah, my hate for D02 knows no limit.

Don't start. :ugly:

[nexus]

There's always some people who just have a hate-on for a given game system for one reason or another, just like there's always some people who are kneejerk defenders. Both tend to be drawn out by dedicated threads.

Frankly, the "haters" used to rule the roost at rpg.net and the "kneejerk defenders" tended to be anyone that argued against them (that or they were thin skinned fanbois). There are exceptions on both sides but I think saying that Hero catches more flak (and used to catch much more) is a fair statement. D20 catches allot too (it was broken off into its own subforum) and I've been told Rolemaster does as well.

But I don't think it's totally imagined persecution to say that some games get more protection than others. People have said (and still do say) things on Hero threads that would get them banned if they were bad mouthing, say, Exalted (or whatever the flavor of the month is at the time).

[nexus]

Keep in mind that the thread is entitled, "HERO 6th edition: what would get you to play it?" IMO that unfortunate choice of wording practically invites HERO-haters to add their snarks.

But really, what wouldn't? It's like trying to choose a name for your kid that won't get him picked on on the playground. Kids and people online will find a way to mock or twist anything. :)

"What do you think of Hero 6th ed?"

It sux!"

"How could Hero be improved?"

"Burning!"

What would make Hero System more appealing to you?

"Convert it to SoTC!"

etc etc :)

[Susano]

Don't start. :ugly:

:nya::nya::nya:

[Paragon]

But I don't think it's totally imagined persecution to say that some games get more protection than others. People have said (and still do say) things on Hero threads that would get them banned if they were bad mouthing, say, Exalted (or whatever the flavor of the month is at the time).

I'm really not seeing it, honestly. There's probably more dogpiles on Hero because there happen to be more people that actively hate it, but I've never seen signs of special treatment, yea or nay.

[nexus]

I'm really not seeing it, honestly. There's probably more dogpiles on Hero because there happen to be more people that actively hate it, but I've never seen signs of special treatment, yea or nay.

In recent memory, I've seen at least 1 "topic banned" for "disrupting" threads on Exalted by a mod that just happened to be a major fan of Exalted. These disruptions being along the lines of expressing a negative opinion about it that was actually on topic. And that's been in the last year. There's been more cases of the mod hammer being brought down faster in Exalted threads for "threadcraps" when, for the longest time, reporting any disruptive behavior in Hero threads got you, at most, a request lighten up.

That has changed since some more mods became active that are Hero fans and over all the attitude has improved but I wouldn't call the admins there impartial by a stretch. Maybe its happened for other games as well but I don't closely follow most of the threads there. The attitude about Exalted also seems to shifting and its fallen out of favor with a fair number of its fans on rpg.net so there's less jumping on the bandwagon to defend it.

[nexus]

I do think rpg.net could be a source of information (otherwise I wouldn't have created this thread) but I suggest taking what's there with a grain of salt, or a salt shaker.

[Paragon]

In recent memory, I've seen at least 1 "topic banned" for "disrupting" threads on Exalted by a mod that just happened to be a major fan of Exalted. These disruptions being along the lines of expressing a negative opinion about it that was actually on topic. And that's been in the



I'd argue that's typically just the variance in mod reactionism; and as to the latter, to be blunt, the difference between a threadcrap and a critical comment can't be anything _but_ subjective.

[nexus]

I'd argue that's typically just the variance in mod reactionism; and as to the latter, to be blunt, the difference between a threadcrap and a critical comment can't be anything _but_ subjective.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Paragon]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

We're just arguing degree and cause, not that there's an issue anyway.

[Markdoc]

Mark me down as the same as well.

Me too :)

Oddly enough though, I actually don't do it much any more. Too busy, I guess...

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

And on topic, having read through the RPG.net thread, it actually seemed to me that people were being pretty reasonable: I've seen some pretty soiled threads on the topic of Hero there in the past.

cheers, Mark

[nexus]

There was a bit of heat the beginning (nothing as bad as before) then it quickly settled down into something fairly reasonable (and downright genteel compared some other threads.).

[jtelson]

If you mean a site infested by people who can't understand elementary school math?


Now, this is neither civil nor accurate; Hero is a system that during character creation routinely requires yo to do things like divide 37 by 2.75. It's not difficult math but it's certainly not simple math either particularly when we're talking about a hobby.

[Karmakaze]

Now, this is neither civil nor accurate; Hero is a system that during character creation routinely requires yo to do things like divide 37 by 2.75. It's not difficult math but it's certainly not simple math either particularly when we're talking about a hobby.

It's the sort of math I did in elementary school...

Granted, I was better at that sort of math when I was in elementary school than I am now.

[Susano]

And any calculator can divide 37 by 2.75.

[Captain Obvious]

You never hear complaints about the math in GURPS Vehicles; in fact, I've never heard anything but good about it. But GURPS Vehicles requires you to find cube roots. That's a couple of orders of magnitude above anything I can recall doing in Hero.

[archermoo]

It's the sort of math I did in elementary school...

Granted, I was better at that sort of math when I was in elementary school than I am now.

Me too. Heck, we did it as both decimal and fractions. Do people not do that kind of think anymore?

[Susano]

You never hear complaints about the math in GURPS Vehicles; in fact, I've never heard anything but good about it. But GURPS Vehicles requires you to find cube roots. That's a couple of orders of magnitude above anything I can recall doing in Hero.

I've heard people say the math in GURPS Vehicles is absurd.

[archermoo]

I've heard people say the math in GURPS Vehicles is absurd.

As have I. From GURPS fans. But then again, that didn't stop them from thinking that the rules were COOL too. :)

[Captain Obvious]

The math is absurd, and the rules are cool, in a somewhat limited way. I thought I had more to say about this, but apparently not. :rolleyes:

[nexus]

Most of the time when a Hero fan snapps or makes a "Duh... Math." type comment they're venting maybe upwards a decade of frustration of listening to people complain about how Hero requires calculus and a scientific calculator to play. And even when that's demonstrated to be false, the reaction is often some kind of weird denial and continued assertion that its true.

"They started it." isn't really an excuse but some frustrated venting is understandable. And yeah, I've seen people complaining about the complexity of the math in Hero when talking about subtraction of integers.

[Toadmaster]

HERO is awesome and they are all jealous. :D

I find GURPS gets its fair share of abuse as well.

Funny nobody jumps on Carwars, and that has more math than any game I've played although it doesn't have fractions.

[Captain Obvious]

Funny nobody jumps on Carwars, and that has more math than any game I've played although it doesn't have fractions.

You're right! And Car Wars has all that subtraction, which is nearly as bad as fractions!

[Susano]

We hates nasty matheses, we hates we do!

[mirage]

Yeah... I almost got into a pissing match with some guy- who apparently works at Eden Studios- who got offended by my suggestion that even if HERO takes a lot of math, it's fifth grade math. His reaction was basically, "When I say it's too complex, some Hero fanboi usually suggests, 'maybe it would be easy if you were SMART'." Like that's what I said. I don't consider myself very skilled in math, so my point is that if *I* can do this stuff, anybody could. It's insulting to act otherwise. Not only insulting to intelligence in general, but to the idea that they're something wrong with you if you USE fifth-grade math. It's like being accused of "acting white." By a fellow white guy. :D

JG

Actually its funny you would mention that, because I started drafting my comment here shortly before reading your comment there.

Thanks for upholding elementary school standards and dissing the ignorant twit.

[James Gillen]

In recent memory, I've seen at least 1 "topic banned" for "disrupting" threads on Exalted by a mod that just happened to be a major fan of Exalted. These disruptions being along the lines of expressing a negative opinion about it that was actually on topic. And that's been in the last year. There's been more cases of the mod hammer being brought down faster in Exalted threads for "threadcraps" when, for the longest time, reporting any disruptive behavior in Hero threads got you, at most, a request lighten up.

That has changed since some more mods became active that are Hero fans and over all the attitude has improved but I wouldn't call the admins there impartial by a stretch. Maybe its happened for other games as well but I don't closely follow most of the threads there. The attitude about Exalted also seems to shifting and its fallen out of favor with a fair number of its fans on rpg.net so there's less jumping on the bandwagon to defend it.


Well, I haven't been able to grok Exalted, even though I like all the other Storyteller games (well, I liked Aberrant but not Trinity) and I like Exalted's setting. But a lot of what you're obliged to do is gaming the system to a point that would make a WoW or Star Fleet Battles player blanch. And I'm supposed to believe that Exalted fans can't figure out Hero's level of math. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I can still use (rolleyes) here. That's because it's hasn't been banned after insane overuse. :D

JG

[James Gillen]

I've heard people say the math in GURPS Vehicles is absurd.

It is. Or at least on the vehicles I saw written up for the WW2 sourcebooks.

JG

[jtelson]

It's the sort of math I did in elementary school...

Granted, I was better at that sort of math when I was in elementary school than I am now.

That its math that you learned in elementary school, doesn't make it math that you can do quickly in your head which is generally what I would consider 'simple'; And just because I can do the math stupidly quickly in my head (I am really that fun at parties) doesn't mean that I can't understand why someone might balk at the idea of doing fractional division recreationaly. Particulary when it is above and beyond the industry standard.

And any calculator can divide 37 by 2.75.

Sure, but for what other game do you, for all practical purposes, need a calculator for character creation. It should probably say that in the 'What you Need to Play' section. Even better build a solar calculator into the cover, you can get pretty tough ones cheap these days.

[Markdoc]

Even better build a solar calculator into the cover, you can get pretty tough ones cheap these days.

Actually, that would be kind of cool.... :D

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Sure, but for what other game do you, for all practical purposes, need a calculator for character creation. It should probably say that in the 'What you Need to Play' section. Even better build a solar calculator into the cover, you can get pretty tough ones cheap these days.

Car Wars. GURPS (esp. Supers) Arduin. And several other games whose names escape me. All of them have some sort of figured characteristics and/or modifiers to powers, or require adding up sets of numbers to reach a certain value (such as weight, or volume of a vehicle). I'm pretty sure other people in this thread can list more.

I never had an issue with it... and many people I know don't either. I learned the game back in 85 and accepted it. At worst is was a minor inconvenience, but the pay off, building to concept, was more than worth it.

[jtelson]

Car Wars. GURPS (esp. Supers) Arduin. And several other games whose names escape me. All of them have some sort of figured characteristics and/or modifiers to powers, or require adding up sets of numbers to reach a certain value (such as weight, or volume of a vehicle). I'm pretty sure other people in this thread can list more.

I never had an issue with it... and many people I know don't either. I learned the game back in 85 and accepted it. At worst is was a minor inconvenience, but the pay off, building to concept, was more than worth it.

To be clear, I don't have an issue with it and very few of the people I game with have an issue with it, but that's a far cry from someone saying no one should have an issue with it and an even farther (further?) cry from it being ok to insult them because they do.

[jtelson]

Actually, that would be kind of cool.... :D

cheers, Mark

Yeah, maybe for the all-in-one box stuff that's being talked about elsewhere.

[caris]

Now, this is neither civil nor accurate; Hero is a system that during character creation routinely requires yo to do things like divide 37 by 2.75. It's not difficult math but it's certainly not simple math either particularly when we're talking about a hobby.

Well, I don't know about the simple or not, but I can certainly think of a number of hobbies that use as much if not more math of that level (and in some cases even more complicated particularly if the person perfers to work in Imperial Units of Measure):

Baking
Carpentry
Scale Model Building
Iron Working
Brewing (i.e. home beer making)
Photography if you are into old school film developing
War Gaming
Sports statisics
Competitive level gambling
Sewing

[Paragon]

Well, I don't know about the simple or not, but I can certainly think of a number of hobbies that use as much if not more math of that level (and in some cases even more complicated particularly if the person perfers to work in Imperial Units of Measure):

Baking
Carpentry
Scale Model Building
Iron Working
Brewing (i.e. home beer making)
Photography if you are into old school film developing
War Gaming
Sports statisics
Competitive level gambling
Sewing

I'd question the comparison to most of those; hobby bakers approximate more than they measure, as do most gamblers of any stripe (oddsmakers aren't hobbyists); war gamers rarely have need to do division or multiplication of any sort; board wargamers don't need to typically do anything beyond simple addition or subtraction (if that), and while miniatures gamers can sometimes have to deal with fractions in measurement, they don't have to multiply or divide by them. Though I'm not familiar enough with home brewers to say, I suspect just like the bakers they normally approximate. Sports statistics can require some division for averaging, but it doesn't normally have to deal with fractions (and that's assuming someone is even doing their own statistics). Sewing, like wargaming, deals in fractions, but not normally division by same. I'm not familiar enough with the others to comment, but I'd also suggest that their load is one reason they aren't exactly common hobbies.

[caris]

I'd question the comparison to most of those; hobby bakers approximate more than they measure, as do most gamblers of any stripe (oddsmakers aren't hobbyists); war gamers rarely have need to do division or multiplication of any sort; board wargamers don't need to typically do anything beyond simple addition or subtraction (if that), and while miniatures gamers can sometimes have to deal with fractions in measurement, they don't have to multiply or divide by them. Though I'm not familiar enough with home brewers to say, I suspect just like the bakers they normally approximate. Sports statistics can require some division for averaging, but it doesn't normally have to deal with fractions (and that's assuming someone is even doing their own statistics). Sewing, like wargaming, deals in fractions, but not normally division by same. I'm not familiar enough with the others to comment, but I'd also suggest that their load is one reason they aren't exactly common hobbies.

Are you sure that you are not thinking about general cooking as opposed to baking? Every serious baker I have ever known has been very careful and exact with their measurements even when they don't appear to be. (I know some one that could free pour vanilla extract by the teaspoon.) Baking because of the high dependency on very specific chemical reactions tends to be a very unforgivng process. Home brewing has much the same issues.

It is called sports statistic not sports averaging. It gets into a lot more than just averaging numbers. It is generally full on statistical annalysis.

When I spoke of competitive gamblers have to be odds makers. I'm not talking about the casual game around the table over beer and pretzles. I'm talking about the every weekend I go to a tournament witn 100+ participants. Once you get to that level, you either become an oddsmaker or you spend a lot of time loosing.

Are there plenty of hobbies that do not involve math at all, let alone anything more complicated than addition and subtraction? Sure. Does that mean that the lack of complicated math is a defining trait of a "hobby"? No. It was that implication that I was responding to.

You and I may simply have a different concept of at what level of participation something becomes a hobby. I play Risk, that does not either make board wargames or Risk itself a hobby of mine. I just do not invest that much effort or interst into it. My mother bakes for special occasions (she is actually quite good at it), but it isn't a hobby of hers. Baking, just isn't something she wants to do more than a half dozen times a year or so.

[Paragon]

Are you sure that you are not thinking about general cooking as opposed to baking? Every serious baker I have ever known has been very careful and exact with their measurements even when they don't appear to be. (I know some one that could free pour vanilla extract by the teaspoon.) Baking because of the high dependency on very specific chemical reactions tends to be a very unforgivng process. Home brewing has much the same issues.



Parts of it are (typically the degree of things needed to make the dough rise properly) but things put in product for flavor are no more unforgiving in baking than in cooking.



It is called sports statistic not sports averaging. It gets into a lot more than just averaging numbers. It is generally full on statistical annalysis.



And with bookmakers you may see that regularly, but not with the people who do it for fun.



When I spoke of competitive gamblers have to be odds makers. I'm not talking about the casual game around the table over beer and pretzles. I'm talking about the every weekend I go to a tournament witn 100+ participants. Once you get to that level, you either become an oddsmaker or you spend a lot of time loosing.



I'd want real proof that most of them actually do the odds on an conscious level; in fact, given the pace of resolution, I'd flat out not believe it unless I heard them say so.




You and I may simply have a different concept of at what level of participation something becomes a hobby. I play Risk, that does not either make board wargames or Risk itself a hobby of mine. I just do not invest that



Then I think you're using it idiosyncratically; for people who do so regularly, even if they only do it on a weekend game night, I'd call it just that, as I suspect would most people.

[jtelson]

Well, I don't know about the simple or not, but I can certainly think of a number of hobbies that use as much if not more math of that level (and in some cases even more complicated particularly if the person perfers to work in Imperial Units of Measure):

Baking
Carpentry
Scale Model Building
Iron Working
Brewing (i.e. home beer making)
Photography if you are into old school film developing
War Gaming
Sports statisics
Competitive level gambling
Sewing

Context is King: There being more mathy hobbies shouldn't make it ok to insult people who correctly note that Hero math is more complicated than most other RPG's math.

[caris]

Parts of it are (typically the degree of things needed to make the dough rise properly) but things put in product for flavor are no more unforgiving in baking than in cooking.

In terms of the flavor, you are correct, but a pastry is much more of a synergistic item. Errors in flavorings, particularly liquid and powdered ones (less so with big chunky things like chocolate chips, fruits and nuts, but even those can have unexpected consequences) can have disasters consequences in terms of structural stability, rise, color, taste and texture. I've never met anyone that didn't think of baking as a significantly more precise and exacting exercise than cooking.

And with bookmakers you may see that regularly, but not with the people who do it for fun.

All I can say is that the people I know that are into sports statistics do just that statistics. Perhaps, I hang out with a geekier group of people, but I've never had anyone say "I'm into sport statistics" and mean anything other than doing full statistical annalysis of sports records and use those to compare and contrast athletes and teams. Now, I know those that do fantasy sports, but even they seem to consider that a separate, but related hobby.

I'd want real proof that most of them actually do the odds on an conscious level; in fact, given the pace of resolution, I'd flat out not believe it unless I heard them say so.

Once again, I can only speak of the ones that I know personally. All of them have made it very clear that if you are doing gambling competively you have to learn how to value a bet. Some of it can be done by route memorization, but most of it have to many variables, and you have to learn the processing as well.

Then I think you're using it idiosyncratically; for people who do so regularly, even if they only do it on a weekend game night, I'd call it just that, as I suspect would most people.

I would say that I made a point of being very picky about how I was stating the hobby. I didn't say gambling or poker. I said competitive gambling which is a very different beast. A lot of hobbies have a normal and a competitive level, and at the very least the competetors have a strong feeling that the two things are very different. Doesn't necessarily make one a hobby and the other not, but that doesn't mean what is true for how one can do one is true of the other.

As for being a hobby, one of the things I listed was an interest in doing it. I drive my car every day, it doesn't make driving my car a hobby of mine. I know people that bake a cake out of a mix every week, neither they nor I think of baking as their hobby.

[caris]

Context is King: There being more mathy hobbies shouldn't make it ok to insult people who correctly note that Hero math is more complicated than most other RPG's math.

Clairity of expression is Queen, include your context. The general response is directly to exaggerations and/or mistatements. If you meant that Hero has more math than the current trend in game design, say so, but expect people to question that assertion with examples of other recently designed games the way James Gillen has been doing.

Saying that there is a lot of math to do in Hero, is significantly different and less inflaminatory than saying that the math in Hero is more than should be in a hobby.

As for insulting those people who express an oppinion about Hero, I managed upthread to correct someone who did exactly that without resorting to hyperbole. So if I'm correcting the others, why shouldn't I correct you, too?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Actually, that would be kind of cool.... :D

cheers, Mark

while we're at it can we add "Don't Panic" in big friendly letters on the cover?

Puh-leeze?

But yeah, I actually think a book mounted solar calculator would be tres cool

[steamteck]

Car Wars. GURPS (esp. Supers) Arduin. And several other games whose names escape me. All of them have some sort of figured characteristics and/or modifiers to powers, or require adding up sets of numbers to reach a certain value (such as weight, or volume of a vehicle). I'm pretty sure other people in this thread can list more.

I never had an issue with it... and many people I know don't either. I learned the game back in 85 and accepted it. At worst is was a minor inconvenience, but the pay off, building to concept, was more than worth it.



What point buy system worth anything would you NOT need a calculator for. Maybe 1st edition MELEE ( if you're not a mathophobe) yeah definitely what I calculator for GURPS. I like lots about GURPS also. its not that I'm a math hog, I just like to be able to design my characters in the image of my vision of them. he math has never bothered any of my group.

[James Gillen]

Car Wars. GURPS (esp. Supers) Arduin. And several other games whose names escape me. All of them have some sort of figured characteristics and/or modifiers to powers, or require adding up sets of numbers to reach a certain value (such as weight, or volume of a vehicle). I'm pretty sure other people in this thread can list more.

I never had an issue with it... and many people I know don't either. I learned the game back in 85 and accepted it. At worst is was a minor inconvenience, but the pay off, building to concept, was more than worth it.

I've also seen Excel sheets for Blue Rose and Rolemaster. You don't NEED computers for those... I don't actually need Hero Designer either, and if I'm at the gaming table away from my computer, I can't use it to hammer out a character. I might use it afterward to add all the points and check my math, but it's not strictly necessary.

JG

[Susano]

I've also seen Excel sheets for Blue Rose and Rolemaster. You don't NEED computers for those... I don't actually need Hero Designer either, and if I'm at the gaming table away from my computer, I can't use it to hammer out a character. I might use it afterward to add all the points and check my math, but it's not strictly necessary.

JG

Hero Designer also make it easy for me to modify things on the fly. It's a great tool, but not a requirement.

[archermoo]

I've also seen Excel sheets for Blue Rose and Rolemaster. You don't NEED computers for those... I don't actually need Hero Designer either, and if I'm at the gaming table away from my computer, I can't use it to hammer out a character. I might use it afterward to add all the points and check my math, but it's not strictly necessary.

JG

Yeah, I made a fairly complete Excel sheet for making Rolemaster characters back in the day. It was even more helpful for RMSS chargen than HD is for HERO. :) But I can build characters for either with just a pencil and some paper.

[Susano]

Yeah, I made a fairly complete Excel sheet for making Rolemaster characters back in the day. It was even more helpful for RMSS chargen than HD is for HERO. :) But I can build characters for either with just a pencil and some paper.

Pencil and paper? Luxury. We had rock and chisels. And we had to start over whenever we spent experience.

[archermoo]

Pencil and paper? Luxury. We had rock and chisels. And we had to start over whenever we spent experience.

You had chisels? We used to dream of having chisels. We had to gnaw at the rock with our teeth.

[And dang it I can't give you Monty Python rep :(]

[caris]

You had chisels? We used to dream of having chisels. We had to gnaw at the rock with our teeth.

[And dang it I can't give you Monty Python rep :(]

Rocks, starting over, writing? We had to memorize characters in our heads, and they were passed down to us from our elders. Each character had a history going back generations, and we had to memorize all the experience expendetures made by each of our ancestors.

[Susano]

Rocks, starting over, writing? We had to memorize characters in our heads, and they were passed down to us from our elders. Each character had a history going back generations, and we had to memorize all the experience expendetures made by each of our ancestors.

**long pause**

Hah, you had elders to pass down your information... we had to use genetic memory!

[Paragon]

I would say that I made a point of being very picky about how I was stating the hobby. I didn't say gambling or poker. I said



I was refering to your use of the word hobby, not the specifics of the types you were mentioning; you don't have to be obsessive about something, or do it outside of, say, a selective weekend day for something to be a hobby.


As for being a hobby, one of the things I listed was an interest in doing it. I drive my car every day, it doesn't make driving my car a hobby of mine. I know people that bake a cake out of a mix every week, neither they nor I think of baking as their hobby.

A desire to do it, and a willingness to deal with excessive overhead on same are not the same.

[ajackson]

What point buy system worth anything would you NOT need a calculator for.
It's typically practical for any point buy system with a fairly small pool of points to spend, where the cost of abilities is either fixed or calculable by simple addition. In Hero, it's usually possible to do characters without complex powers with pencil and paper; how much work does it really take to add up the points on a brick or martial artist?

[Paragon]

It's typically practical for any point buy system with a fairly small pool of points to spend, where the cost of abilities is either fixed or calculable by simple addition. In Hero, it's usually possible to do characters without complex powers with pencil and paper; how much work does it really take to add up the points on a brick or martial artist?

Its not exactly prohibitive in heroic scale games without paranormal powers typically, either. At that point you're mostly just buying attributes and skills, with some builds needing a few talents.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here comes the summary for page 10...

No post segment 12 recovery.
No end.
No figured characteristics. (more points to start with maybe)
None of these changes are extreme enough to warrant a comment. I even think that they have been commented already in this thread.

COM is gone, I never liked it and I think it's better handled like Gurps does it.
I don’t know how to handle COM, but as it stands no it’s pretty useless.

Disadvantage points also gone. Characters get a set amount of points to design the character and can take whatever disadvantages they want. Whenever a disad comes up in play I'll give 'em a Hero point for their trouble.
This isn’t a rules question; it’s a game master question. Maybe a note about it could be added in the beginning of the Disadvantage section just to help new GMs.

Not needing an algebraic formula on my sheet to determine whether I hit in combat.
Since so many people has complained about this (in one form or the other) it might be wise to try to rephrase the “algebraic formula” into something more intuitive. I don’t personally have a preferred way to do, so I leave the exact phrasing to someone else.

Options for converting the system to roll over (though that's a pipe dream and I realize it).
I don’t personally see the pros rolling over compared to rolling under (besides mimicking d20), but since the issue pops up so often I recommend it as an optional rule in a side bar.

Or rather, 11+OCV-DCV+x, where x represents other variable situational modifiers.
“11+OCV-DCV+x” isn’t that dissimilar from “AC + circumstance bonus vs. 1d20 + attack value” since AC is 10 + modifiers (just like 11-DCV). Obviously presentation is the key to being in or out (no rudeness intended).

Hero System is a FAR more complicated formula than d20, which rarely has true variables beyond the target number, and since the target number comes after the "=", it doesn't count as a variable. Even the designers of the game openly admitted to me several years back at Origins that the algebra required in combat is overly complicated, and thought it was a great idea when I suggested (laughingly, mind you) they pass out Honorary Degrees in Advanced Math with each book purchased.
As shown in the answer above, the formula isn’t that different. The thing that makes Hero’s formula seem harder (besides presentation) is the bell curves less predictable nature. Small adjustments can have large (and not always wanted) consequences.

I would suggest a short text on using other dice(s), like 2d10, 1d20 and 4d6. The old schools can still use 3d6, but the newcomers can use whatever dice they want.

It's not algebraic but there is a lot more math. Assuming all modifiers are precalcuated in both cases:

1d20 + mods >= AC is 2 operations (1 addition, 1 comparison)

Die1 + die2 + die3 <= 11 + OCV - DCV is 5 operations (3 addition, 1 subtraction, 1 comparison)

I seem to recall hearing somewhere that most people are faster at addition than subtraction so it's probably 3 times as much math for a simple to-hit roll.
If there is one thing that I can agree in is that instead of altering DCV (so that 11 -/+ DCV can become static), all modification should be made to the OCV (like in d20). The benefit of this would be increased speed, without changing the system more than needed.

There's always some raving HERO Fanboi willing to insult anyone who dares insist there's too much calculation involved in their game by saying, "It's easy if you're SMART."
For some reason I agree with him.

We (Hero “fan boys”) might have to accept that the current way of rules system presentation scares people off. Arguing over if math is easy or not is always a lost battle (just the having an argument is proofs enough for the silent masses).

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's a summary of page 11...

If people really liked doing math then HERO would be the most popular game system in the world and Steve Long would be living on a tropical island somewhere with enough money to finally get a girlfriend. :)
This comment was so unexpected that I felt a need to quote it.

HERO math is not hard but there is a lot of it - at least in the superhero genre and fantasy genre if you are using spells. For some people doing that much math is worth the outcome. For many using the character creation software (Hero Designer) is needed to be worth the outcome. For others the amount of thought needed to make a character does not equate to the benefit of the finished product. You are not going to change that in people just by creating a new edition of the game. You cannot make people like doing something they do not like to do, no matter how simple it might seem, IMO.
I did say that the best way to counter this is to highlight (in the rules book) the benefits of choosing the pre-made example powers from the book until the player group gets used to the system. Add to the some recommendation of writing the base information, without having to write the entire rules section.

Take a gas mask (page 197), for example, all the information that is relevant in game is that it stays usable for one hour, yet the write of far more than those two words.

I guess what you all know what I’m trying to say.

Wow, Hero is coming out with a 6th edition? I'll have to check those boards. I gave up on Hero after reading the powers section in 5th edition. At this point, it felt like I was studying a textbook. I had notes, tabs, and questions all written out. My wife was asking me why I was studying that was supposed be for fun. I agreed and gave up on the book.
Presentation, presentation…

This has already been talked about before.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary of page 12...

It's a fair criticism to say Hero takes too much math. But I don't think it (or GURPS) design philosophy could work without all the math. I own and like BESM and M&M but they lack in big ways when compared to GURPS and Hero. I think many people just don't need what GURPS and Hero supply in terms of nitty-grittiness.
I don’t agree with him, but still assuming that he is correct, if Hero needs all math a few words in the book of why would be nice.

Admittedly, people can get hyberbolic in their statements about it, but as Grey Elf said, (and in my experience also) many HERO fans get very defensive when anyone comments on the math involved in making a character (and to some extent, playing the game) and come back with "The math isn't difficult,...Duh".

However, what many of them either don't or refuse to realize is that those original comments have nothing to do with the complexity, but are instead referring to the quantity. As evidenced by other posts on this thread, there are people out there that don't want their RPG characters feeling like a homework assignment (grade school or otherwise). (Yes, plenty of other games are just as guilty of having plenty of math involved, that doesn't make this less true.)

Those who continue on w/ HERO don't mind the amount of math (and often seem to enjoy it). More power to you, kick ass, carry on, huzzah, etc., but there's no need to be shocked when other people are put off by it. Just admit it, there's a lot of math involved in the game. To some it's a big deal, to others, it isn't.
Yet another way of saying that to appeal to the masses the system must be able to hide its math from those that don’t want to see it, but it must also be able to show the math for those that like to tinker with the system.

Presentation is once again the key.

To get me to play would require someone I know willing to run it. If the game is fun enough and long lasting enough, I probably will buy the rule book too. To get me to run... No sorry, too many other games I'd rather GM these days.
This is an important remark. To get a demo game in the states might be easy. In Sweden finding a Champions (Hero System as a name is even more obscure) player is almost impossible. I run in a group, but I know no one else besides those guys that have even tested the system.

Hero Games needs to be more visible outside the States. Not an easy feat, I know, but brand building is no easy feat.

[Alibear]

This isn’t a rules question; it’s a game master question. Maybe a note about it could be added in the beginning of the Disadvantage section just to help new GMs.




I think you misunderstood my post. I'll no longer be telling people to design characters with x points + y disads.

I'll be telling perople to build charcters to design characters with x points. They can take whatever disads they want but want get any extra points to spend. They'll just get a Hero Point, to use in play to alter dice rolls, whenever I use a disadvantage.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary of page 13...

There is more math in Hero than in just about any other mainstream RPG, d20 included. Not harder math (except maybe the fractions in chargen), just more of it. A lot of it is in the way it's presented in the books... but yeah, it's a flaw if you care about making the game accessible to people who don't want to do a lot of math when they play a game.
As I wrote in the previous summary, if there is an increased complexity, some notes regarding why would be interesting.

I read an rpg book once (can’t remember which) that had small notes regarding the design philosophy behind “rule this ‘n rule that”. The same thing might be worth considering for Hero System?

Even if it only looks like more math than it really is, that's a flaw that should be addressed. Complexity is not an inherently bad thing in an RPG, but unnecessary complexity is.
I agree with him.

Something funny that always hits me when people complain about the numbers and the math, is that they don't have to do all the math. If you want prebuilt powers, special abilities, spells, whathaveyou, just get a copy of the genre books, or the Superpowers Databases, the Grimoires, or the Ultimate books. There are virtually hundreds or prebuilt powers and abilities all there for you, all you have to do is pick some, make sure they fit the power level, and write them down. Add up your points, and Voila! finished character. The rest of the so called 'algebra' can be dealt with during combat, or even before combat. Add up all your combat values and have them ready, like D&D, and you won't have to do all that adding and subtracting in your head.

Simple.
jak
Good point, but remember that wasn't always so, nor does the big, intimidating default rulebook make that a clear option on its own. :(
I wrote it in a previous summary; encourage the use of pre-made powers.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary for page 14...

If we're talking about generic rulebooks, I'd rather buy one moderately sized book than one big book. If the book has so many rules that it needs to be the size of a phonebook, then either it (a) has too many rules for me (and lots of other folks) to want to play the game, or (b) the rules are presented in a bloated and inaccessible fashion.

(Note that I think Hero 5er is more a case of (b) than (a).)
The size (and numbers of) core books for the system is talked about elsewhere.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary of page 15...

Secondly, I'd need time: time to make characters, time to set up scenarios, time to run the lengthy combats.
One thing I envy d20 players in is all the free downloadable games available on the official D&D page. One these boards there are over 1000 members, yet there is only one uploaded game from a non-hero games author.

Maybe Hero Games should consider starting some kind of upload site for home-brew adventures?

Thirdly, I'd need people locally who are willing to deal with the complexities of the Hero system. One can apologize for the system all one wants, but the bottom line is that character creation is still one of the most math intensive and time consuming processes in any game I've played. Moreso even than Mutants and Masterminds or GURPS.
Sidekick helped a lot here (I think so myself), and hopefully will “Sidekick 2” be even better at it will all the feedback from the first version.

Call it ancedotal, but the players I have are not willing to deal with the Hero system, even the ones who have played Hero before. This I attrribute to the fact that it's still very much an early 1980's game, where the design philosophy was "more de