So how much to gamble?

[nexus]

DOJ is taking a risk with 6ed. They're balancing maintaining a fanbase with drawing in new customers. Frankly, I don't even them the position. There's plety of fans that have been playing Hero System/Champions for decades and poured allot of money and creative energy into the system. For awhile, only the fans were keeping it going.

OTOH, something that doesn't grow, doesn't really prosper. It often stagnates and dies. The fanbase is growing older, leaving gaming as their interest and situations change. An influx of new players is needed for Hero to stay alive but how much do you change to draw in new players.... before you changed so much the game is "Hero in name only"? How much can you change without losing your core fan base which would probably kicking the foundation out from the under the game unless the new version takes off like a rocket.

No real point to this, just thinking "out loud". In any event, I wish DOJ good luck and much success with 6th Edition even if that means I part ways with Hero System.

[Opal]

You've got a good point. It's worth noting that DOJ stepped in and saved Hero Games when it took just exactly that sort of gamble - with Fuzion - and lost.

[Vondy]

This is going to sound weird - and its just a wild postulate - but:

DoJ has said they know Champions is Hero's bread and butter, but between giving up control over the Champions name (or at least sharing it), and Steve's list of changes looking like a step towards the heroic genre, I wonder if what we're going to see is a game more slanted to cinematic and heroic action that can, with some options, do superheroes. I could be totally off base - the champions end will be even more high-profile if the onlin end works, but just to have a tinfoil hat moment: have you looked at the front-page? We've got Hero on the left side, and Champion's on the right side... are things being parsed out so the heroic and superheroic paradigms are more distinct (but theoretically using one engine)? Inquiring minds want to know...

Qeue the Twilight Zone theme....

[Derek Hiemforth]

DOJ is taking a risk with 6ed.The same risk that was taken with 2nd-5th editions. The system didn't mutate into something horrible and drive away tons of existing players for any of those editions, and I don't think it will for 6E either. :)
An influx of new players is needed for Hero to stay alive but how much do you change to draw in new players.... before you changed so much the game is "Hero in name only"? How much can you change without losing your core fan baseI don't have an exact answer, but I'm virtually certain the answer is "Much more of a change than 6E will be." When announcing 6E at DunDraCon, Steve made it very clear that they had no intention at all of turning 6E into another Fuzion, or at compromising the game's strengths in an attempt to cater to newbies. What he said (paraphrased, of course, because I wasn't recording the seminar, but this is pretty darn close) was "We think the 5th Edition of the HERO System is the best RPG on the market today. This isn't a matter of something that's broken needing to be fixed (other than a few little things here and there). This is a matter of hoping to make something great even better. We're going to make changes we think will improve the system, without taking away the things that make HERO great. If some of those changes happen to make the game easier for newcomers to learn, that's wonderful. But if some of those changes happen to make the game harder for newcomers to learn, then the newcomers will just have to deal with it. The goal is to make 6E the best the HERO System can be. The goal is not to dumb it down in any way to make it more appealing to new players."

Again, I'm only speculating, but I expect 6E to be between 4E and 5E in terms of change. I expect it will be more of a change over 5E than 5E was over 4th. But I expect it will be less of a change over 5E than 4E was over 3rd.

[nexus]

The same risk that was taken with 2nd-5th editions. The system didn't mutate into something horrible and drive away tons of existing players for any of those editions, and I don't think it will for 6E either. :)


More of risk, IMO, if they're intend to perform radical changes to bring in fresh blood. Most of the changes in Hero have been fairly incremental. The big ground breaking change/expansion with Fuzion did not end well for a number of reasons.

New editions are always a gamble in the rpg business. RPGs aren't like computers. You don't have to "upgrade" because barring some misfortune the books aren't going to be come obsolete they're non functional eventually. So you've got make a product people want invest in including a few "redundant" books.


I don't have an exact answer, but I'm virtually certain the answer is "Much more of a change than 6E will be."

I hope your are correct in your speculation or if your not it creates an big influx of new customers along with MMO and truly takes off on its own.

[Captain Obvious]

New editions are always a gamble in the rpg business. RPGs aren't like computers. You don't have to "upgrade" because barring some misfortune the books aren't going to be come obsolete they're non functional eventually.

Particularly true since Hero grognards are used to converting stuff from other systems anyway.

[McCoy]

Well, I'm feeling better than I was earlier in the week. I am agreeing with Steve's reasoning on the changes to make, and not to make, more than I thought I would. Even the changes I disagree with so far are not deal breakers.

I realize nothing has been carved in stone yet, but the process is, so far, much less painful than I feared.

[McCoy]

The same risk that was taken with 2nd-5th editions. The system didn't mutate into something horrible and drive away tons of existing players for any of those editions, and I don't think it will for 6E either. :)
How long did it take the fan base to come back after Fuzion?

[Toadmaster]

Again, I'm only speculating, but I expect 6E to be between 4E and 5E in terms of change. I expect it will be more of a change over 5E than 5E was over 4th. But I expect it will be less of a change over 5E than 4E was over 3rd.


I don't know, if Steve only make 1/2 the changes he says he is strongly considering I'd say its at least as big as 3rd to 4th.

[Opal]

How long did it take the fan base to come back after Fuzion?Most of the fan base never stopped playing Hero, they just stopped buying Hero books. And it's really hard to say, Hero was in dire straights and couldn't publish much, either - hadn't published much on paper leading up the Fuzion, for that matter. Then DoJ came in and white-knighted the whole thing, and Fuzion quietly became history. Can't remember the exact years.

[Derek Hiemforth]

How long did it take the fan base to come back after Fuzion?Irrelevant, because Fuzion wasn't a new edition of the HERO System. Fuzion was a deliberate attempt to "simplify" the system and merge it with Interlock. 6E is not attempting to "simplify" the system (at least, not as a general goal), and it isn't being merged with or morphed into some other game. It's apples and oranges.

[JmOz]

Irrelevant, because Fuzion wasn't a new edition of the HERO System. Fuzion was a deliberate attempt to "simplify" the system and merge it with Interlock. 6E is not attempting to "simplify" the system (at least, not as a general goal), and it isn't being merged with or morphed into some other game. It's apples and oranges.

Simplification is one of the stated goals

[caris]

How long did it take the fan base to come back after Fuzion?

How many bought 5th not because it was a new edition, but because they needed a new copy of the rules?

Of course, as has been pointed people didn't leave Hero. They left Fuzion.

How many actually think that 5th qualifies as a new edition, or just a slightly updated new printing?

How many of the new copies of the books have to be sold to cover the costs of producing the new edition? How many of the new editions are the fans going to buy? How many copies are going to be bought by new people to the system?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Simplification is one of the stated goalsNo it isn't:
6. I want to continue to make the HERO System easier to learn and to use.

I think that in 5E and its product line we’ve made major strides in improving the approachability of the HERO System and increasing its “ease of learning” factor. The HERO System is hard-core gaming that rewards attention and effort, and we’re never going to get away from that entirely (nor should we). But anything that can reasonably be done to lessen the learning curve and improve usability is something I want to consider as part of the writing and design of the 6E rules.Nowhere in there does he say anything about simplifying the game. He talks about making it easier to learn and use, lessening the learning curve, and improving usability. Those things do not automatically equal "simplifying" it. Even a complex thing can be made easier to learn and use if it's presented logically and explained clearly. To the extent that there might be parts of the HERO System that are needlessly complex, I suppose those might be changed. But if the complexity serves no purpose, it should be changed anyway, right?

Plus, Steve has explicitly stated that 6E will not be dumbed down, or made "simpler" purely for the sake of making it simpler. He said it directly at DunDraCon, with me sitting mere meters away. So if he's not simplifying it for the sake of simplifying it, then I have to assume that when he talks about "continu(ing) to make the HERO System easier to learn and use," he's talking mostly about how it's written and presented... not how it works.

[Opal]

How many actually think that 5th qualifies as a new edition, or just a slightly updated new printing?It certainly added and changed enough to qualify as a new edition. Mostly added, but still, it was a new ed. Even Rivised aparently had some serious stuff in it, judging by how I've been boggled by some of the conversations on here...

How many of the new editions are the fans going to buy? How many copies are going to be bought by new people to the system?There's sadly no way to be certain, that's why it's a risk.

[caris]

It certainly added and changed enough to qualify as a new edition. Mostly added, but still, it was a new ed. Even Rivised aparently had some serious stuff in it, judging by how I've been boggled by some of the conversations on here...

You see, I disagree. If it hadn't been for the whole Fuzion debacle, I would have been scratching my head and wondering why the were bothering to call it a new edition. I would need something far more fundamental in the way of changes to really consider something that merits calling it a different edition.

[McCoy]

Irrelevant, because Fuzion wasn't a new edition of the HERO System. Fuzion was a deliberate attempt to "simplify" the system and merge it with Interlock. 6E is not attempting to "simplify" the system (at least, not as a general goal), and it isn't being merged with or morphed into some other game. It's apples and oranges.
I hope you are right.

[nexus]

This is going to sound weird - and its just a wild postulate - but:

DoJ has said they know Champions is Hero's bread and butter, but between giving up control over the Champions name (or at least sharing it), and Steve's list of changes looking like a step towards the heroic genre, I wonder if what we're going to see is a game more slanted to cinematic and heroic action that can, with some options, do superheroes. I could be totally off base - the champions end will be even more high-profile if the onlin end works, but just to have a tinfoil hat moment: have you looked at the front-page? We've got Hero on the left side, and Champion's on the right side... are things being parsed out so the heroic and superheroic paradigms are more distinct (but theoretically using one engine)? Inquiring minds want to know...

Qeue the Twilight Zone theme....

Now that you mentioned I'm not sure your on to something but maybe...

[caris]

Now that you mentioned I'm not sure your on to something but maybe...

Honestly, I think it was less that they wanted to let go of Champions (particularly hard to believe that Steve wanted to give up Dark Champions), than this is the best compromise to get the influx of resources to keep things going in the direction that they want to go.

[nexus]

Honestly, I think it was less that they wanted to let go of Champions (particularly hard to believe that Steve wanted to give up Dark Champions), than this is the best compromise to get the influx of resources to keep things going in the direction that they want to go.

What exactly is encompassed under the label "Dark Champions" anyway? I've been somewhat confused about that since the 5th edition book was released.

[caris]

What exactly is encompassed under the label "Dark Champions" anyway? I've been somewhat confused about that since the 5th edition book was released.

Well, this covers which books are included in it. (http://www.herogames.com/productsDarkChampions.htm) Presumably, those books would have been covered in the sale with Harbinger of Justice specifically exempted.

I was never interested in the original Dark Champions stuff, so I haven't delved into the current stuff. Even so it is my understanding that current Dark Champions was expanded to include most variation of modern American action/adventure. Campaigns based off of Die Hard, possibly Knight Rider, etc.

[James Gillen]

Plus, Steve has explicitly stated that 6E will not be dumbed down, or made "simpler" purely for the sake of making it simpler. He said it directly at DunDraCon, with me sitting mere meters away. So if he's not simplifying it for the sake of simplifying it, then I have to assume that when he talks about "continu(ing) to make the HERO System easier to learn and use," he's talking mostly about how it's written and presented... not how it works.

That's all I could want.

JG

[James Gillen]

Most of the fan base never stopped playing Hero, they just stopped buying Hero books. And it's really hard to say, Hero was in dire straights and couldn't publish much, either - hadn't published much on paper leading up the Fuzion, for that matter. Then DoJ came in and white-knighted the whole thing, and Fuzion quietly became history. Can't remember the exact years.

As you say, there weren't any Hero books to buy, so the point was moot. When the product was ready, the customers appeared.

JG

[jtelson]

I'm comfortable that 6th will be playable, enjoyable, and recognizable as the Hero System. While I often dissagree with Steve's interpretation of his own rules (man, that sounds odd), I'm still going to pick up a copy and haven't seen anything seriously discussed that I would consider a dealbreaker (I'm not sure what I would consider a dealbreaker, come to think of it). So, I would think that the larger gamble here is the short term one. What will to happen to 5th Edition product sales now that 6th edition has been announced? Although I assume that the Champions Online deal will help mitigate any reduction and that the timing of the two announcements is not coincidental.

[Opal]

I would need something far more fundamental in the way of changes to really consider something that merits calling it a different edition.It settled the Great Linked Debate. ;)

[Toadmaster]

While I often dissagree with Steve's interpretation of his own rules (man, that sounds odd),

Actually that is not odd, he owns the rights to the system, but technically they are not "his" rules, he did not create them. It has been a group effort from several authors / editors and Steve is just the latest. So what you are saying about interpretation is exactly right and it makes a lot of sense that you would have developed your own interpretations of the rules and even the "official" interpretations have changed over the years depending on who was at the Helm of HERO.

Before anyone jumps on me this is not an attack on the character of Steve Long, DOJ or HEROdom at large, simply saying HERO has been around quite some time and it has not been static, interpretations have changed over the years and all of us prefer one or another interpretation.

[caris]

It settled the Great Linked Debate. ;)

It did, what debate was that?

Oh, the whole can you actually use two attacks at the same time, or is Link giving you an advantage thing?

What does it tell you that I don't particularly use MPAs, but do allow Link as a Disadvantage?:D

[Steve Long]

I appreciate the good wishes, everyone, but this is not an appropriate topic for this forum. Please stick to rules issues only.