Spacer's Toolkit review on RPGnet

[Lord Liaden]

I spotted this new review of Ben Seeman's tome, and thought folks might want to check it out; those of you who have ST might wish to respond to some of the reviewer's comments:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9561.phtml

[Ben Seeman]

Well, at least he didn't trash it... which is good enough for me. :)

[JohnTaber]

Can people respond with their comments?

Specifically I am torn about spending my hard earned cash on TE, ST, or TE AND ST. I am going to be running a Star Hero campaign NOT in TE (i.e. I will be using my own universe setting). Do I need these books? Which books would folks recommend I get?

THANKS! :D

[Talon]

Originally posted by JohnTaber
Can people respond with their comments?

Specifically I am torn about spending my hard earned cash on TE, ST, or TE AND ST. I am going to be running a Star Hero campaign NOT in TE (i.e. I will be using my own universe setting). Do I need these books? Which books would folks recommend I get?


If you're not running in the TE universe then you don't need either book, of course. Both will give you ideas to mine for your own game. I would probably recommend TE of the two unless you know you don't want to read the history stuff in TE and just go for straight gadgets. For me, TE was a very inspiring book.

[Demonsong]

More that half the book is star ship right-ups. As far as I am concerned the only reason to own the book is if you are running a Star Hero campaign with lots of space craft in it. I must say I was a bit disappointed in most of the weapons right-ups as well. I am not saying is a bad book, I just don’t think it is the same caliber as the Star Hero or The Terran Empire. Both of which have very good equipment and background information for use in just about any setting. If I was to give this book a letter grade it would be a solid C+. Nice try but just did not make it. Where I would rate both Star Hero or the Terran Empire as A’s.

Just my personal opinion.

Thanks

[JohnTaber]

Thanks gents! Think I'll get TE first... ;)

[Stormraven]

I have to say that I tend to agree. I liked the Starships, but I wanted to see a lot more weapons - like high-tech version of Alien melee weapons - and generic equipment.

I think I would have preferred a Starships book, and a specific Equipment book, so we could get more of the good stuff... :-)

[HiLiph]

One of the BEST ever rpg gear guides I've ever seen is Lock and Load for Battlelords of the 23rd Century. That's how a gear guide should be - tons of gadgets, weapons, armour, shields, implants, and personal missile units. . . Mmmm

[BobGreenwade]

The general consensus on the book, even back during the review process, has been that it's too heavy on starships and not heavy enough on personal gear. It's a very well done book aside from that, but that by itsef makes it the worst book DOJ has done so far. (Of course, saying that really isn't an insult, considering the quality of the other books.)

That said, I think we all know how to remedy the problems of "I wish the book had such-and-such": build some items of that type, and send them to Ben for the Spacer's Toolkit Online. I'm doing just that myself, and I think we'll collectively come up with a truly excellent compendium of stuff if we all put our minds to it. :D

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
...but that by itsef makes it the worst book DOJ has done so far.
Um, ouch? ;) :) :D

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Um, ouch? ;) :) :D

Don't worry Ben, if comparing it to other DoJ products - it is like saying you only have a 2 carat diamond instead of the 10 carats of the others. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
Don't worry Ben, if comparing it to other DoJ products - it is like saying you only have a 2 carat diamond instead of the 10 carats of the others. ;) More like 7 versus 10. :D

[Ben Seeman]

No worries. On the bright side, future books of mine can only get better. :)

[Armitage]

Originally posted by HiLiph
One of the BEST ever rpg gear guides I've ever seen is Lock and Load for Battlelords of the 23rd Century. That's how a gear guide should be - tons of gadgets, weapons, armour, shields, implants, and personal missile units. . . Mmmm

What I use most heavily is GURPS Ultra-Tech and Ultra-Tech 2. Easily converted stats, lots of items in every category, and everything neatly divided by Tech Level. I add in Robots, Vehicles, and Bio-Tech and I have all of the gadgets I could possibbly need.

[Dauntless]

What I'm worried about with the direction of DOJ and Hero Games is that by supporting their own homegrown "universes" we'll see less and less generic stuff and genre books.

I for one have no interest in Terran Empire (or any other homegrown settings like the Turakian Age). After reading the reviews for both TE and ST, I don't think I'll buy either one. I just hope that DOJ realizes that Hero System is a generic universal game system, meaning that it excels at allowing GM's to produce their own worlds. I'd much rather see genre material like Fantasy Hero and Star Hero, or Ultimate Guides than stuff for settings.

That being said, I would like to see an even mix of equipment for sci-fi settings (not just Terran Empire). Since roleplaying is essentially about people, I'm more interested in personal items like weapons, armor, computers, communications equipment, espionage equipment, medical equipment and even mundane things like entertain equipment. To me, starships are props and Hero system is not what I'd use to play out battles between starships (Hero excels at charcter roleplaying, not starship or vehicle duels...I'd rather use something like Starfire, Star Fleet Battles or Starmada for warship combat resolution).

[Nato]

I guess everyone's preferences are different. I'd rather see a good mix of genre books WITH supporting materials. I like having campaign settings, either to play directly or for ideas for a game. I like the current trend of publishing a genre books, and then supporting it with a couple campaign books. Then release a new genre book. Support. Then go back to a previous genre and release another product for it. I like that.

[Dauntless]

I'd agree for the most part...until you look at DOJ's publishing schedule. Look at it for Star Hero, and everything that's coming out in the near future is for Terran Empire or a new campaign setting (solarhero and spacedogs whatever they are). How about specialized genre books like Post-Apocalypse Hero (which by another thread seems to have a pretty big following) or a Cyber Hero (I suppose Dark Champions will touch on this some)? And Fantasy Hero also looks likes it's going to be barraged with campaign/setting books too. I'd rather see something like DOJ did with the UNTIL Super Powers Database, and create something like a Grimoire instead.

To be honest, this worries me alot. While I'd rather see settings/campaign books than adventure scenarios, for my own personal tastes, DOJ is going in the wrong direction as to what they are focusing their writing efforts on.

I think DOJ's strategy is that game world settings are more popular than supplements or genre books. But like I said, that's missing the great strength of the Hero System. Instead of creating so many pre-fabbed worlds, they should do more genre books as fuel for the imagination to help GM's create their own worlds. I think a great many Hero players play unconventional worlds, from TV shows, to other roleplaying games, to movies, to comics, to novels. Why does DOJ want to create yet another game world to trounce around in? I'd much more appreciate new or expanded rules like in the Ultimate series, or tips and inspiration on how to do your own genres. Otherwise DOJ isn't capitalizing on their own strengths (sorry to make it sound like I know better than the business people in charge...but it just makes more logical sense to me).

I hope they come out with another Spacer's Toolkit (and to be honest, the title is Spacer's Toolkit, so it should be obvious what the majority of equipment will be. But maybe this time, call it the Tech Toolkit or something like that. And please....don't put so much Terran Empire constrained technology in it.

[Nightfly]

I have to disagree w/ the above post. I think DOJ is catering to the massive audience for Space genre games by creating a template for others to co-opt (for their own world), or play in as provided.

My first interest in H5 was thru Martial Arts characters, so I got those books first.
But since I also buy WoTC's SW material, and Decipher's Trek books, I was pleased as punch when I finally got around to picking up SH.
SH was exactly what I wanted / needed, then I got Spacer's Toolkit (which I thought wonderfully augmented SH) - then lastly I got TE (which I love as much as any DOJ book so far).

I think it's all about taste. I doubt I'll be facing as many Orcs or Elves in my FREd gaming as some,... and perhaps not everyone wants to build a Starship base (like me)!

Just another view.

[Nightshade]

As an aside, the Fantasy HERO Grimiore is coming out relatively soon.

I will say that I am mostly interested in the more generic stuff personally. However, I definately see the need to put out official campaign settings. If my players suddenly told me that they wanted me to run a sci-fi game, I would be looking for something to get me started, and Terran Empire, the Xenovore invasion, and some of the others that eventually get put out would be what I was looking for. I would much rather give my money to HERO for a setting than to other companies.

Nightshade

[Demonsong]

I would much rather give my money to HERO for a setting than to other companies. Hopefully with out sounding like a kiss a$$, I totally agree with you .

[Lord Liaden]

I've long listened to the debate among HERO gamers between those who want more generic material to co-opt for their homegrown campaigns, and those who want more settings and setting-specific material. Honestly, I've yet to see a majority opinion emerge, and the posts on this thread seem to reinforce the impression that HERO fans run the gamut in their expectations. One of the most frequent complaints about pre-DoJ Hero that I heard is that with the exception of Champions, there wasn't enough setting-specific support.

My impression is that Hero Games is aware of this, and is trying to cater to as wide a cross-section of their fan base as possible. Hence we have genre books for people who want to build their own campaigns; the Bestiary and the Ultimate books (you can see more of those upcoming on the production schedule) for cross-genre support; and setting books and supplements for people who want whole settings, or elements of settings to crib from. Looking at the publishing schedule, I don't see them focussing their main energies on any of these areas.

I think that Spacer's Toolkit suffers a little in comparison to the UNTIL Superpowers Database - the broad and generic power coverage in that book might have led people to expect a similar treatment of high-tech in ST. For my part I would indeed have welcomed more personal gear and fewer starships (a separate starship supplement, perhaps covering ships from several of the setting eras, might have been more appropriate). I don't want to put all the responsibility for that on Ben Seeman's already-burdened shoulders, though. I recall him remarking that he was working from an outline given to him by Steve Long; certainly if Steve didn't like the emphasis of the manuscript he could have asked for changes in the editing phase. Maybe the company miscalculates what people want once in a while; they can't hit a homer or triple every time up. (Anyone want the cardboard standups from my Resource Kit?) ;)

One complaint that I have trouble sympathizing with, though, is that the tech is too "setting specific". All these items are just game mechanic writeups with names attached; what's preventing people from filing the names off and using these things for their homegrown campaigns?

[Dauntless]

Nightfly-
I agree with you, I loved Star Hero...but I don't consider that a campaign/setting book, I consider that a genre book. Star Hero is just another "gamer's toolkit" that helps GM's custom tailor fit their own sci-fi world. But with Terran Empire, it's already made up for me. While sometimes specific campaign settings can be useful if they resemble your own world enough to gain ideas, equipment or characters from, I'd still rather work on my own setting.

I'll get Fantasy Hero because I'll be interested in seeing if they have any useful tips on creating my mixed martial arts/fantasy setting I have in mind. But I don't plan on getting the Turakian Age or the Valdorian Age (pre-fabbed settings for Fantasy Hero). I'll probably also get Dark Champions. But I'll pass on most of DOJ's pre-fabbed world settings with the exception of Champion Universe (which I've always had a fondness for since I originally played Champions way back in 1984 and it has some memories for me....even though I don't really play super hero campaigns that much anymore)

[Polaris]

I do not get as much use out of the genre books (I did really like Star Hero), but overall feel like the genre books seem to focus on "here is how you role play superheroes/fantasy/sci fi/etc". I can see how they would be nice to have, but not generally worth AS MUCH to me as other books.

I really do like the ultimate books. Books that give equipment are good (my SH game is quite effected by galactic politics, so prebuilt ships that I can enter into HD and modify a little bit is a big help). I usually don't place a huge priority on setting books, but am going to go buy Terran Empire today. I like the author's writing style, and if SH is any indication, I am confident I will be able to find good use of James Cambias' ideas from TE.

Polaris

PS: Ben, I hope none of the comments from people are discouraging to you. Perhaps Steve will let you write a personal equipment book that some people seem to be wanting?? :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Polaris
I do not get as much use out of the genre books (I did really like Star Hero), but overall feel like the genre books seem to focus on "here is how you role play superheroes/fantasy/sci fi/etc". I can see how they would be nice to have, but not generally worth AS MUCH to me as other books.
I like the genre books but they are not as useful to me either. Genre books are more for people who want to build it themselves, and I just do not have the time to do that. I can certainly see where many people would like the Genre books though (I understand that most people prefer homebrew games).

For myself, I prefer Campaign books (and follow-up books). They give me all the information I need and save me a great deal of time. The good thing about campaign books is also that they can be used like generic books. Even if you do not want to play in the TE universe you can still use the racial and class package deals for a homebrew game. There is also all the technology and equipment that can be mined from the book. So for my money a Campaign book offers everything a generic book offers, plus you get the campaign information. To me that is like a double plus.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Polaris
PS: Ben, I hope none of the comments from people are discouraging to you. Perhaps Steve will let you write a personal equipment book that some people seem to be wanting?? :)

That's started to concern me as well. Ben did a fine job of writing these items up in a clear and entertaining manner, and whether or not the actual content is what a given Hero gamer is looking for doesn't detract from that. I'm hoping that he'll be given the opportunity to do more books in the future. :)

(Given Ben's self-proclaimed penchant for describing whatever he sees or thinks of in HERO System terms, I'm sure he won't lack for material.) ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Polaris
PS: Ben, I hope none of the comments from people are discouraging to you. Perhaps Steve will let you write a personal equipment book that some people seem to be wanting?? :) I can say right now that I'd be all over that book in a flash minute. STK doesn't suffer at all from poor writing quality; its fault is in the outline, giving too much emphasis to starships. :)

[James_Kiley]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Well, at least he didn't trash it... which is good enough for me. :)

Ben:

I couldn't have trashed it, honestly; I really did like a fair amount of Spacer's Toolkit. It just lacked a lot of material that would have been useful for my game. I happily admit that my reaction was selfish -- I wanted (and still want) cool stuff for use in my own game.

I'll probably also contribute to the online toolkit as well, as soon as I have time to make up more of my own stuff.

jk
(the guy who wrote the review on rpg.net)

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by Dauntless
What I'm worried about with the direction of DOJ and Hero Games is that by supporting their own homegrown "universes" we'll see less and less generic stuff and genre books.

I agree with you, while the "old" HERO suffered from a lack of support for its genre books, I am a bit concerned that DoJ is overcompensating for this. I think it is good that they are putting out campaign materials, but it is starting to look like they are completely ignoring the generic aspect of HERO. I liked the Spacers Toolkit because it does what I wanted, it gave me examples of equipment I can modify for my own nefarious purposes, but I would have preferred something more along the lines of Gurps: Ultratech. I hope that all future StarHero material is not restricted to TE. I don't have TE yet but I know many will want to use StarHero for Traveller, Starwars, etc. Lack of generic material may give people the idea that TE is the only setting.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Toadmaster
I agree with you, while the "old" HERO suffered from a lack of support for its genre books, I am a bit concerned that DoJ is overcompensating for this.

Well, settings sell. And if all HERO puts out is rule books and genre books, they are basically selling only to that segment of the market that likes and uses the HERO system. There are people that won't use our favorite system, but will pick up the settings for ideas to convert for their own. The HERO people would be missing a portion of the market, which makes it harder for them to put out the books you want.

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by GamePhil
Well, settings sell. And if all HERO puts out is rule books and genre books, they are basically selling only to that segment of the market that likes and uses the HERO system. There are people that won't use our favorite system, but will pick up the settings for ideas to convert for their own. The HERO people would be missing a portion of the market, which makes it harder for them to put out the books you want.

I agree that HERO should be selling setting books along with Genre books, my concern is only that it is starting to look like HERO is going to produce setting books at the expense of generic books. So far StarHero is my only experience (I bought Champions but I'm not following the rest of the Supers stuff), What I have seen is StarHero (generic), followed by Terren Empire and the Spacers Toolkit (also based on TE), and the last time I looked I don't recall seeing any non setting specific supplements for SH. What I would prefer to see (and I realize its just my opinion) would be StarHERO, TE and then a generic book of scifi gadgets and a generic starships / sci fi vehicles book, then go ahead and put out more setting specific books. So far FH looks like it will fall more into the mold I described since the Grimore looks like it will be a generic book.

Not bashing the idea of HERO selling settings, just concerned they are going to get to far away from the generic angle. Sure settigs may sell, but if I don't like the setting I'm not going to buy it, while generic material will likely appeal to all gamers of the genre.

[Nato]

I don't understand how Spacer's Toolkit isn't generic enough. Yes, it is descriptively set in the TE universe, but isn't it easy enough to use in whatever setting you've adopted?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nato
I don't understand how Spacer's Toolkit isn't generic enough. Yes, it is descriptively set in the TE universe, but isn't it easy enough to use in whatever setting you've adopted?
I do not understand that either. Just because the paragraph or two of "flavor" text discusses the Terran Empire does not mean that the equipment and vehicles cannot be considered generic. A "Goliath" Battleship is completely generic if you remove the TE flavor text. The equipment listings in TE and STK cover some 200 years and 3-4 ATRI levels. There is plenty of material there that can be used us generic.

To me every supplement produced is generic. If you do not want to use the Champions Universe then you just make Mechanon part of your personal universe. Just because Mechanon or a Goliath Battleship is written for the HERO Universe does not mean it cannot be used in a homebrew campaign.

Ultimately though, the entire Ultimate line is about generic material. UMA and TUV are designed to be used by anyone. The same goes for the upcoming Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Mystic, and HERO System Vehicle Book. I also think that the upcoming Gadgets & Gear and Villany Amok will also be fairly generic products. That is 5 books for next year that are generic, not include the new Dark Champions Genre book. That is one-third of the entire line for next year. I think DOJ is doing enough generic information.

[Agent X]

Yep, unless the setting is very unusual, it is quite easy to "borrow" from "setting-specific" gadgets and place them in your own setting. I have no problem with generic or setting stuff.

I do agree with the original criticism. I would have liked more emphasis on personal gear and less on ships. Ben, there isn't a thing wrong with your writing or what you presented. I would just have preferred more personal gear and I imagine there are plenty of others who would have preferred that. I really enjoyed what personal gear was given and the ships, for that matter, were cool; I just won't get much use out of all of those ships and I can see almost all of the gear being used extensively.

[Polaris]

I would have to agree that setting material that is not overly unique can provide a lot of useful information. I am not playing in the TE setting, but have found good use for most of the material in the TE book.

I would prefer that the online Spacers Toolkit not be required to be bound to the TE setting, but that is because I believe it excludes material that could be very useful... not that the material that is included is not useful. I find TE material useful for my non-TE campaign.

Just my opinion..:)

Polaris

[Talon]

I think that all the campaign-specific stuff Hero has put out remains pretty generic. Details are left for the GM to fill in as he sees fit; while of course there's standardization and choices made in terms of available special effects and power levels, there's very little that you couldn't lift for a campaign that uses a similar tech level. If anything, I'd say Hero is lacking that bottom level of specificity: it's very hard to impossible for someone to run an "off the shelf" campaign using existing Hero products, without doing a decent amount of customization work.