Replacement for SPD, END, and Speed Chart?

[Utech]

This might go in several different categories above. It deals with Characteristics, Combat, Advantages, Limitations, and maybe some other stuff as well.

This is a radical game design change. It is certainly half-baked at this time. I’m wondering if it is interesting enough to keep in the oven… In part because this is new and different, I’m afraid this post is rather long and might be difficult to follow. I hope a few people will think it worth the read, will consider it seriously, and let me know why it’s a terrible idea. :D

The concept: Remove Speed and Endurance and replace them with the new Actions Characteristic. Actions represent how much an individual can accomplish in one Turn. Actions cost (guess here) 5 points each.

Major Game Changes:

Powers no longer cost END. Instead, they have an Actions Cost (AC) based on their Active Points – perhaps figured the same way END cost is figured now.
The Speed Chart disappears.
Post Segment 12 Recoveries are renamed Post Turn Recoveries.
REC is only used to replenish lost Stun.
Advantages and Limitations used to adjust END or time (the Extra Time Lim) are modified to adjust a Power’s AC.
Many Maneuvers will need to be assigned an AC.
Recovering from being Stunned requires some number of Actions. This might be a flat number (say, 3) or dependent on circumstances (say, 1 per Stun taken beyond CON).
How Actions would work in game play:

The GM announces that it is Action Time!
Each Player takes a number of poker chips (this could be done with pencil and paper, but poker chips are more fun) equal to their Actions Characteristic.
The GM announces that it is now Round 1. (or Segment 1, or Phase 1, or whatever)
In DEX order, Players and NPCs decide to either a) begin an action, or b) do nothing
Actions with an AC of 1 are resolved immediately.
Actions with an AC of more than 1 are started, but not completed. The Player stacks poker chips up until he has reached the required AC. At that moment the action is resolved. Such actions, once started, can normally be abandoned (along with any poker chips invested) at any time.
The GM announces that it is now Round 2 and Players decide to a) begin a new action, b) continue an action started in a previous round, or c) do nothing
Play continues through as many Rounds are necessary for Players to spend all of their poker chips. After all poker chips are spent, the GM announces that one Turn is over. All characters take a Post Turn Recovery and poker chips are replenished.
Advantages to having Actions replace Speed, Endurance, and the Speed Chart:

Action is more free-flowing.
Movement is far less herky-jerky.
Players are not limited to 1/2 and Full Phase actions.
Characters are free to move after they attack.
Characters who don’t spend actions moving can attack more.
Characters who don’t spend actions attacking can move more.Disadvantages:

It’s new and untested.
It might be difficult to convert old characters to the new system.

[steamteck]

I've never liked systems that used this sort of mechanic. It always broke the wall and took me out of the roleplaying aspects ( And I GM and in my group the GM rolls all the dice because the player would rather spend more energy being in character.)

[tiger]

I have to agree with tech

I for one like the 1/2 phase or full phase actions. This allow and/or stops PC from doing to much in one turn. Also allows them to figure out what they can do, but still allows roleplaying aspects to be input into the action

[Sean Waters]

Which teck/teck are you agreeing with?

I like the idea. I'm personally very keen on the Hero SPD chart, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the best or the only way to do something. It would be nice if this could be worked up as an alternative system that didn't require too many changes from Core Hero so that it could be included in (fingers crossed) The Book Of Alternative Rules.:thumbup:

[Supreme Serpent]

Interesting idea, but I personally don't really see a need for it in Hero. To me SPD and the Speed Chart is a feature, not a bug.

Golden Heroes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Heroes)has a similar mechanic ('frames').

[Tonio]

I like the idea, sounds fun and very workable. I also like SPD and END, though, and I think this would be a move sideways, not forward (but hey, not back, either!).

[Utech]

I've never liked systems that used this sort of mechanic. It always broke the wall and took me out of the roleplaying aspects ( And I GM and in my group the GM rolls all the dice because the player would rather spend more energy being in character.)
Could you please elaborate as to what about my proposal would take you out of the roleplaying aspects? I don't see anything about it that runs counter to roleplaying.
Certainly the GM could continue rolling all of the dice.

I for one like the 1/2 phase or full phase actions. This allow and/or stops PC from doing to much in one turn. Also allows them to figure out what they can do, but still allows roleplaying aspects to be input into the action
Under my proposal, it would be a simple matter to stop PCs from doing too much in one turn. All you would have to do is limit the number of Actions PCs may take. This is exactly similar to putting an upper limit on Speed.
Again, I'm not sure how my proposal would (or even could) limit roleplaying aspects. To the contrary, I would expect that it would provide for more roleplaying opportunities.

Interesting idea, but I personally don't really see a need for it in Hero. To me SPD and the Speed Chart is a feature, not a bug.
I don't have any trouble with the Speed Chart -- I rather like it. But we all know that Steve is considering some real changes in Characteristics (including Speed and Endurance) and considering removing or changing the Speed Chart. What I'm offering here is a way to consolidate two characteristics and make combat less herky jerky by morphing the Speed Chart into a less restrictive structure.

Many thanks for all who responded to my proposal -- especially those with encouraging words. :D I'd love to hear back in more detail from those who don't think my proposal is a good idea. In particular, why you think it would somehow limit roleplaying.

Certainly there is no need to implement my proposal. (For that matter, though, there's no need to create a 6th Edition. ;) ) I think this is an exciting opportunity to make suggestions and I hope you don't mind my enthusiasm.

[steamteck]

The chits just feel too much like bidding on when you do things. I prefer a system where you can just "do it" rather than have a very visible layer of mechanics of expendable actions. Maybe if it were done without thus aspect.
My players would just bunch all their actions anyway unless there was some really big reason ( like no EN) to not do so. I think you need a mechanic to force them to spread them out/ It would work fine at lower speeds but at higher the high spped characters would get lots of sequential actions seems to me.

[Utech]

The chits just feel too much like bidding on when you do things. I prefer a system where you can just "do it" rather than have a very visible layer of mechanics of expendable actions. Maybe if it were done without thus aspect.
Naturally the poker chips are not necessary! They're no more necessary than having the GM reference the Speed Chart and say something like, "Phase 6. OK, Jim, you're first."

My players would just bunch all their actions anyway unless there was some really big reason ( like no EN) to not do so.

That would be fine.

One good tactic would be to try to do all of your attacks right away, hoping to hit and Stun your opponent.
On the other hand, a character with more actions might choose to simply go defensive until the attacker was all out of actions . . . and then would dish out pain.

I think you need a mechanic to force them to spread them out/
Why?

It would work fine at lower speeds but at higher the high spped characters would get lots of sequential actions seems to me.
I'm not sure how this is significantly different from what we see with the Speed Chart right now.
A character with a Speed of 7, for example, might

hold his Phase 4 action,
use it in Segment 5,
take his Phase 6 action,
take his Phase 7 action,
and Abort his Phase 9 action to Block on Segment 8.That's 4 sequential actions.

[steamteck]

Hmm, I guess you could bunch things up somewhat under the present system but we never do. That's obviously just us though.

I prefer them spread out because that just feels more real to me and is the strength of the speed chart but I suppose everyone acting kind of in turn in a round robin achieves that effect also.

The speed chart seems less herky jerky to me but I've never tried your way. Maybe I'll run some test combats and see how it goes.

[Utech]

The speed chart seems less herky jerky to me but I've never tried your way. Maybe I'll run some test combats and see how it goes.
Many thanks! Best of luck. I do hope the experience isn't as bad as you initially thought.

[Steve Long]

I think this discussion has gone on long enough. Thank you for your input.