Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

[Heroic Avatar]

On th Champions forums there are many threads with people determined to get the Heroes Games Rule Set(tm) used in the creation of the game?

Why are people so desperate to happen? Games Workshop has licensed its products out for decades now to things unrelated to table top gaming, and they have only managed to increase their brand awareness and their sales of table top games.


So why are people losing it on the other forums about not having Hero Rules? one person even described it this way:

Good sig mattlow. But, unfortunately, this is the Internet. No matter how many times it's said, or even if Steve Long went to these people's houses and pelted them with wiffle balls shouting, "It's not using the Hero System rules!" people still won't get it. They'll take obscure bullet points from some Interview that mentioned the word "hero" and extrapolate that that the new game will be the Hero system verbatum. Then, when the game actually comes out, and it isn't like that, they'll scream, rant and gnash their teeth shouting, "Cryptic lied! They are the suxxor !11!!111!!" even though the truth was stated plainly and simply right from the beginning, multiple times, from multiple people, on multiple boards.

Crytic does not have the rights to use any aspect of the Hero SYSTEM; only the fluff.

I imagine we'll see some cosmetic terminology uses to make the game appear more Hero Sytem-ish. Now this doesn't mean we won't seepoint buy, advatantages, limitations or even power pools because these things aren't unique to the Hero system.

The game isn't called Hero System online and it really shouldn't have been called Champions Online. It should have been called Champions Universe Online (CUO); because that's all we're getting.

keth

But no matter what Steve Long or Jack Emmert says, the vocal threats and the calls of doom if the system is not used continue unabated.
An example of such: http://forums.champions-online.com/images/misc/subscribed.gif How much of the Hero System is used in CO? What would you like to see used in CO? (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=580)


I just don't see why its such a big deal. Other Game Systems have done it as well, but why the vehement stance for this franchise when the MMO will only bring attention to the system and increase interest in the websites and probably the sales numbers?

[mayapuppies]

While the Champions Universe and Turakian Age and Drak Champions Universe are all very well done (as well as the others not mentioned here), what really sets Hero Games apart is the Hero System mechanics.

For many people, Champions and Hero System are one and the same.

Or at least this is my opinion.

[Spence]

For many people, Champions and Hero System are one and the same.

Or at least this is my opinion.

And that opinion is not far off. The Hero System game mechanics have their roots in the original game called Champions. Back then Hero and Champions were one and the same. many old Herophiles have never called it anything but Champions. I still tend to do so myself, though I have made an effort in the last few years to change that.

There will always be those people who don't understand that they are not the center of the universe. It is like the handful that have huffed of the board because of 6th Ed. Obviously Hero only exists to personally provide them with what they want :rolleyes:

This is the only time I have ever even heard of a company announcing an upcoming update over a year in advance and actually asking for fan input.

As for the MMO, the ability to use the rich 25 year world history will save Cryptic an a$$load on development and allow them to concentrate on the MMO itself. Plus the plot lines and backstories will be much more coherent and feel a little less artificial.

But to answer Heroic Avatar directly, IMO people fear change, and if change in inevitable they what the change in question to follow their personal preference.

For me, all I ask is the ability to create my character concept, not a pre-determined by class clone. And for the game to have actual role-playing and not just be a shooter/console combat game. "Finish Him!";)

[incrdbil]

It's the Internet. If people weren't out there missing the point and ignoring the obvious, we'd have only a fraction of total useage that we have these days.

[Haerandir]

The other thing is that a lot of people just don't have any realistic appreciation of the limitations inherent in getting a computer to take the place of a GM.

I love the Hero System. I wouldn't want to play in a Hero System game run by an AI. No matter how carefully you program it, there's just too many loopholes, special cases and judgement calls involved. Even leaving balance and content development issues aside.

Also, a lot of people, and not just Hero System grognards who've never played an MMO, hear the word 'archetype' and assume it means 'your character is predefined for you and you only get to make a couple of largely cosmetic decisions about how it works'. Which is certainly a valid concern. My biggest complaint about some of the more popular fantasy MMO's was that you had a very limited selection of options to distinguish your character from 'every other Nightshade in Hibernia', or whatever. It also appears to be a concern that Cryptic is aware of. I was on the Cryptic CoH boards back in 2002, before the deal with NCSoft, and the game they were talking about back then was very different from the one that got released. I remember when the NCSoft deal was announced, it was very quickly followed by a string of announcements about changes to the gameplay features they'd been describing for months previously. I suspect that a lot of compromises had to be made to get the game out the door in a timely fashion. It had already missed at least one firm deadline at that point. I get the sense that CO is going to look a lot more like the game Cryptic wanted to make 5 years ago. Pure speculation, of course. But I'm crossing my fingers. I was looking forward to that original version of CoH.

[Spence]

The other thing is that a lot of people just don't have any realistic appreciation of the limitations inherent in getting a computer to take the place of a GM.

I love the Hero System. I wouldn't want to play in a Hero System game run by an AI. No matter how carefully you program it, there's just too many loopholes, special cases and judgement calls involved. Even leaving balance and content development issues aside.

Also, a lot of people, and not just Hero System grognards who've never played an MMO, hear the word 'archetype' and assume it means 'your character is predefined for you and you only get to make a couple of largely cosmetic decisions about how it works'. Which is certainly a valid concern. My biggest complaint about some of the more popular fantasy MMO's was that you had a very limited selection of options to distinguish your character from 'every other Nightshade in Hibernia', or whatever. It also appears to be a concern that Cryptic is aware of. I was on the Cryptic CoH boards back in 2002, before the deal with NCSoft, and the game they were talking about back then was very different from the one that got released. I remember when the NCSoft deal was announced, it was very quickly followed by a string of announcements about changes to the gameplay features they'd been describing for months previously. I suspect that a lot of compromises had to be made to get the game out the door in a timely fashion. It had already missed at least one firm deadline at that point. I get the sense that CO is going to look a lot more like the game Cryptic wanted to make 5 years ago. Pure speculation, of course. But I'm crossing my fingers. I was looking forward to that original version of CoH.

Sounds like a pretty spot on summery.

[Heroic Avatar]

Thank you to those who have posted on this thread so far.

I am a little surprised that only 5 people responded so far, and none of them think having Heroes rule set as a base for the MMO is a good idea.

I probably should not be surprised at this, but as vocal as the proponents of the Heroes Rule set are on the other forum, I just assumed they would want a chance to explain why they are so against it in a logical manner.

Come to think of it... I think thats exactly what they don't want. If these people posted on this forum, they would probably be flayed alive for not appreciating what a great opportunity this is for the game they love.

Over there they look like proponents of the game they love, over hear they would might sound seriously deranged...

But thats just my warped opinion.


I would really like to hear from some of the proponents of having Heroes Rule Set as the basis of the MMO.

I know your out here, heck I can put at least 1 full page of links to threads about how the game is going to be bad if it does not use Heroes Rules in some form.

I would really like to hear your opinions.

[Lord Mhoram]

While I agree with most of the posts on this thread, and I agree that getting the hero system online would be really difficult, I would also add to the discussion this fact.

Everyone I know plays hero for the system, not the IP. Two use completely homebrew setting with nothing from the Champs U, one uses aspects of the Champs U, but our main campaign city is Freedom City from Mutants and Masterminds. I use elements from 5 or 6 different Superhero games, plus a lot of solo stuff thrown in.

I don't think I am alone in that kind of approach. Sure Foxbat is nice, and Dr Destroyer makes a great villian, and Viper are fun to trash, but similar character with similar names work just as well.

What we love is the system - how you can build whatever you want, that your characters are just what you make them. That is the primary appeal of the PnP game to many. Those people won't care about the Champions IP if the system isn't there.

See also Champions the New Millenium and Fuzion. Fans would not accept that as Champions even though it used that IP (changed some) but not the system.

I plan to play CO (it would be my first MMO), but it won't be as great as if the Hero system were the engine - but trying to code that into the game, I can see as something that is impossible. :)

[AmadanNaBriona]

[FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR=Blue]
I would really like to hear from some of the proponents of having Heroes Rule Set as the basis of the MMO.

I would really like to hear your opinions.

For my part, I really don't care how the game is written "under the hood' as it were, but at the user interface/character creation level I'd like it to be recognizably related to the pen and paper HERO system, enough so that porting characters from the MMO to a pen & paper game is a fairly simple conversion without retooling everything, and somewhat vice versa.

If I can write up a character I really like for champions, then hop into the CO character builder and come up with a close duplicate of my character, I'll be fairly happy. If I can also avoid dealing with a huge influx of new players who are outraged that the PnP system doesn't translate their 50th level Tank/Scrapper I'll be even happier.

In a nutshell...if the game's gonna have the Champions name on it, and the production of the MMO is spurring on a whole new edition of the system... I want to see the two games being at least cosmetically similar at the player level. Point buy characters, familiar stats, no level based advancement, no classes, a speed characteristic that determines how fast your actions are executed, low level experience gains that can be allocated freely or saved towards larger purchases, and goal/story based experience awards rather than combat related awards.

[kridenow]

Actually, I believe a MMOG could be done using the HERO system.
But I also believe it's not a good idea when you aim at releasing a MMOG and have the ambition of having more players than just a niche.

I just hope Champions Online will get some bits of the HERO "philosophy", allows a flexible character creation. In other words, going for a compromise between what can offer a Pen and Paper RPG and what a MMOG is generally built on.


Since Cryptic is vaguely related to City of Heroes (I've heard), I can just say that, while City of Heroes is based on archetypes and might look drastically limiting character creation and creativity, you still get a huge number of combination to play with.
After two years and half playing CoH, I still have a ton of combinations I didn't try.

If Champions Online goes a bit beyond the archetypes concept and allows more freedom, I'd be sincerely happy. Not because I want more freedom at all cost, just because it is a welcomed change and won't be just a redo of the CoH system.

Getting the IP of Champions Universe... it's hard to tell... It depends a lot how it will be used.
But since I appreciate a lot what Cryptic has done on CoH, I have no real reason to believe they are going to do a bad job for their next game.

As long as Cryptic delivers a good supers game based on the Champions Universe, I'm going to be happy.
Using the Champions Universe IP is already a nice choice. I'm not going to cry if a very good modular game system, but aimed at PnP gaming, isn't used.

[Supreme Serpent]

I wouldn't want the gameplay to be a paste-over of the Hero system rules.

I would like that a lot of the basic concepts to be elements of character creation/progression, and for an impact on game play.

Like:
*Points-based creation and advancement vs. levels. Ability to save XP for bigger purchases or spend them as fast as you get them, your choice.
*Defenses different depending on type of attack (PD vs. ED, limited defenses, AP vs. Hardened, etc.)
*Ability to add Advantages and Limitations on powers, affecting gameplay and cost.
*Price breaks for similar powers, simulating Power Frameworks to an extent and giving a break to characters that increase the breadth of their abilities rather than trying to just ramp up max damage, etc. Like if already have "Ranged Attack->Blast->Laser blast", get a break if you buy "Ranged Attack->Blast->Fire blast->Explosion", and an even bigger break if you keep the same SFX and got "Ranged Attack->Blast->Laser blast->Armor Piercing" instead.
*Ability to tailor drawbacks/"Disadvantages" to an extent. They've already said can do this to the extent of making own arch-enemy ('Hunted') and can choose to have Secret vs. Public ID, so I think they're already going down that road. Choose your own vulnerabilities, maybe with bonus points if 'make sense' given your SFX (like fire guy getting more points for vuln to cold than he would for vuln to psionics).

[mayapuppies]

I am totally with Kridenow and Supreme Serpent on this. The "PHILOSOPHY" of the Hero System is what I (and I believe those other por-hero system folks) are really after.

Lord Mhoram is also dead on with my folks, we've always used our own Home Brew worlds for every game system we've ever played.

[Lord Mhoram]

Lord Mhoram is also dead on with my folks, we've always used our own Home Brew worlds for every game system we've ever played.

:)

Yeah, people used to homebrew world, and love the system, look at the idea of a Champions games and think "But it doesn't have what I like most". I'm sure that is part of it. Hero system fans are an amazingly devoted bunch.

[Thia Halmades]

Call it a giant moment of 'meh' for me, but I don't see a need for "t3h mechanics" to be included. I would like to see a very wide open level of customization, sure, but the HERO system is not intuitive. As I've said on many occasions, what I really want is a streamlined GUI (to stop scaring n00bz) and a complete toolkit beneath it, so I can crack open the casing on any object and redesign it, no muss, no fuss.

I don't really give a hoot if COMMO uses the "HERO System" -- I don't anticipate using HERO Designer to dev my character. I really don't. I would like to see some of the terminology kept for flavor, but I have no illusions that the game itself will run on its own engine. So... I suppose that isn't what you're looking for, but I'd like to sit down with the game and have a feeling of familiarity. But I don't want to play HERO: The MMORPG. Bleh.

[Karmakaze]

I'd like to see some of the design aesthetic of the HERO system used for the online game, but pencil and paper RPG is not CRPG, any more than stage plays are movies. Literal ports never work well. For pencil and paper, you can have any SFX you can think of; for the MMO, you can only have any SFX the devs could think of and easily implement.

[Bazza]

So far most comment I've read about COMMO using the Hero System has fallen in to two camps, Yes or No/I don't care as long as there is flexibly.

What about the middle ground: Sidekick (5e) / "The HERO System Basic Rulebook" (6e)?

[Karmakaze]

So far most comment I've read about COMMO using the Hero System has fallen in to two camps, Yes or No/I don't care as long as there is flexibly.

What about the middle ground: Sidekick (5e) / "The HERO System Basic Rulebook" (6e)?

That has the same issues as pulling in the full rulebook. Even as a somewhat simplified ruleset, Sidekick is still a pencil-and-paper system. There are still too many finicky things that would not be time-efficient to code.

[Alibear]

The Hero System character creation comes with a massive GM Stop sign. The Mark I GM Eyeball is needed to give every character the greenlight in a pen & paper world. I doubt if a program could pick up on all Hero's potentail for abuse.

MindMoleMan sysndrome anyone?

[Lord Mhoram]

The Hero System character creation comes with a massive GM Stop sign. The Mark I GM Eyeball is needed to give every character the greenlight in a pen & paper world. I doubt if a program could pick up on all Hero's potentail for abuse.


That is the main reason I didn't figure the CO would use the Hero system. I am a reformed powergamer and I shudder at just what I could do with no GM oversight. :)

I have no worries about the character creation, whatever it may be, in CO. From what I read in the Game Informer article, every character can buy every ability in the game, but the cost to buy and ability is dependent on class. I think that strikes a reasonable middle ground.

But I do understand the position of those who don't want to play unless it was the Hero system, even if I don't agree with them.

[Blue]

I'm sorry to hear that someone on the internet is upset about something.

Personally, I've got bigger worries than Foxbat not being statted out exactly like he is in the books.

[steamteck]

Lord Mhoram is also dead on with my folks, we've always used our own Home Brew worlds for every game system we've ever played.


Absolutely. frankly every GM I've ever played with homebrewed his world. Some take a liitle from here and there but nobody in our extended groups ever used a world even vaguely whole. The system is what sold us. Even so its adsolid universe and has existed for decades, enough to give it some nice depth not normally seen in these sorts of games IMO.

[Pattern Ghost]

Since Cryptic is vaguely related to City of Heroes (I've heard),

Actually, Cryptic created City of Heroes. NC Soft was their publisher, but has recently bought the game from the studio. I believe I read that Cryptic still has rights to their original game engine, and that an improved and updated version is the basis of Champions Online.

[kridenow]

Sorry, it was a poor attempt at joking :) I was aware of that.

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm sorry to hear that someone on the internet is upset about something.
That means I have to post this:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l214/Lord_Mhoram/duty_calls.png

[Mayday]

Ive wanted to play a Champions MMO for years, and have given alot of thought to how the mechanics might be ported over and simplified a bit, but Cryptic did a good job with CoH so I wont go negative on their ideas.

For me Champions and the system were the same for so long I still think of them that way, but honestly the Champions themselves were among the least interesting characters in their universe.

PSI, VIPER, Dr D, CLOWN, PRIMUS, DEMON, Stronghold, UNTIL... Man, dont you feel a little warm and fuzzy just thinking about them?

Ok, maybe not PSI. Those guys are plain evil.

The one problem with CoH was that they didnt have half the missions they needed so we all ha to redo the same ones over and over. I hope there will be a way to submit plot ideas maybe, or else custom them for the game in a Neverwinter Nights module way.

I had frankly awesome GMs for Champions.

[Spence]

For me Champions and the system were the same for so long I still think of them that way, but honestly the Champions themselves were among the least interesting characters in their universe.

PSI, VIPER, Dr D, CLOWN, PRIMUS, DEMON, Stronghold, UNTIL... Man, dont you feel a little warm and fuzzy just thinking about them?



I always took that to be intentional. After all the players PC's are supposed to be center stage. Not the NPC Heroes.

Villains on the other hand need to be interesting indeed :eg:

[Shaft]

The Champions IP is well done- it's had 25 years to develop and unlike Marvel and Dc, it's had a consistent history, though the history does tend to reboot as the editions change.

I think slapping the Champions IP onto a COH engine is a great idea. Cryptic has a lot of experience with computer MMO game mechanics, and adding a Champions skin onto it will take advantage of Champions' experience with presentation. Meanwhile, the Champions Universe will give the game a developed feel.

[Spence]

The Champions IP is well done- it's had 25 years to develop and unlike Marvel and Dc, it's had a consistent history, though the history does tend to reboot as the editions change.

I think slapping the Champions IP onto a COH engine is a great idea. Cryptic has a lot of experience with computer MMO game mechanics, and adding a Champions skin onto it will take advantage of Champions' experience with presentation. Meanwhile, the Champions Universe will give the game a developed feel.

Well said.

[Heroic Avatar]

The Champions IP is well done- it's had 25 years to develop and unlike Marvel and Dc, it's had a consistent history, though the history does tend to reboot as the editions change.

I think slapping the Champions IP onto a COH engine is a great idea. Cryptic has a lot of experience with computer MMO game mechanics, and adding a Champions skin onto it will take advantage of Champions' experience with presentation. Meanwhile, the Champions Universe will give the game a developed feel.

I concur, but I think this engine is completely new and nothing like the champions engine.

[CorPse]

It's the Internet. If people weren't out there missing the point and ignoring the obvious, we'd have only a fraction of total useage that we have these days.

This gave me a darn good chuckle, sir.

[CorPse]

I'd like to see some of the design aesthetic of the HERO system used for the online game, but pencil and paper RPG is not CRPG, any more than stage plays are movies. Literal ports never work well. For pencil and paper, you can have any SFX you can think of; for the MMO, you can only have any SFX the devs could think of and easily implement.

This is a great point K!

The best movie adaptations of books are free-wheeling and try to capture the spirit & essence of the book instead of a literal translation.

Why should PnP to MMO be any different?

[Steve Long]

I think when the Cryptic folx say they're drawing on the HERO System as "inspiration," that's a good sign. If they don't want to use the HERO System in full, then taking its core spirit of flexibility and customizability (to the extent one can in an MMO at this stage in time) is a definite step in the right direction. Marry that to a wise use of HERO terminology so people can relate one game to the other with a minimum of fuss, and I think it's a good thing for Hero Games and Hero players.

[kridenow]

If something similar to advantages and limitations could find its way in, I'd be happy.

With "power templates" for guidance and quick selection of the most common/expected choices.

Or the ability to create your own templates to add to your personnal list... so you don't have to redo them for future characters... (just save the combination localy, not on server).

Well, it depends a lot of the ambitions of the game and the difficulty to achieve the desired balance...

[Fenixcrest]

I don't know why this is even up for argument... anywhere. I would never even consider playing any MMO type of game that used the HERO System as its actual, working rule set, and this is why:

Once I have finished filling in my character sheet, I get to wait for GM approval for who knows how long (think of the player to GM ratio here!). I bet said GM will miss things, too, and there will be horribly broken or just not useful characters everywhere.

Do you know why I assume there is a GM? Because, as was stated earlier in the thread, without GM oversight, it's a trivially simple matter to build an unstoppable juggernaut, and the ratio of people who would build that juggernaut to people who wouldn't is balanced in extreme favor of the "juggernaut" side... and even with GM oversight, and I know this from being a GM, there will always be some clever bastard who slips something innocuous-looking past you, that turns out to be a huge game breaker.

It is my opinion that people who are still trying (impotently) to pressure Cryptic into adopting anything resembling HERO as we know it are completely, depressingly naive regarding the nature of MMO's (huge player base, significantly less huge staff), MMO players (balanced strongly in favor of "playing games as a competitive sport", as opposed to "playing games to role play a lovingly-crafted character"), and, in fact, the HERO System (How much freedom are we really willing to afford players of this game? Do you want to be in the same virtual city as 10,000 total munchkins who have meticulously crafted a damage-shield/absorption/regeneration AoE constant damage to all enemies in the vicinity + invulnerability power feedback loop? What if it's only the 1,000 of them that managed to make it past the exasperated, overworked, and outnumbered character generation-oversight GMs?).

[Spence]

I don't know why this is even up for argument...

People are arguing? :sneaky:


Do you want to be in the same virtual city as 10,000 total munchkins who have meticulously crafted a damage-shield/absorption/regeneration AoE constant damage to all enemies in the vicinity + invulnerability power feedback loop? What if it's only the 1,000 of them that managed to make it past the exasperated, overworked, and outnumbered character generation-oversight GMs?).

Which is why I have no problem with them using a different engine. In fact based on my small experience in MMO's I can't see them using a PnP rule system. Use commonalities yes, the actual system no.

I will be happy if they manage to avoid “Classes” (but I am not expecting it) and adopt the history and flavor of the CU. With PnP Champions I have to look under the hood, with a MMO I don’t. So I really don’t care if the Hero’s Energy Bolt is 1 point per 1d6 or some computer script as long as I get my Energy Bolt. :D

[archermoo]

People are arguing? :sneaky:



Which is why I have no problem with them using a different engine. In fact based on my small experience in MMO's I can't see them using a PnP rule system. Use commonalities yes, the actual system no.

I will be happy if they manage to avoid “Classes” (but I am not expecting it) and adopt the history and flavor of the CU. With PnP Champions I have to look under the hood, with a MMO I don’t. So I really don’t care if the Hero’s Energy Bolt is 1 point per 1d6 or some computer script as long as I get my Energy Bolt. :D

According to the currently released information there will be Archetypes. All Archetypes will have access to all powers, but the powers will have different costs depending on which Archetype you've chosen.

[Derek Hiemforth]

It's also worth noting that at the announcement seminar at DunDraCon '08, Darren mentioned that there was an agreement in place that would allow Cryptic to refer to the game engine as "the HERO System online" if they wanted to (even though Cryptic did not buy the HERO System from DOJ) if DOJ deemed the final rules engine for the MMO similar enough to the "real" HERO System.

Now, that's certainly no guarantee that the MMO rules engine will turn out to be that similar to the real HERO System. But the simple fact that the subject came up and was discussed, tacitly implies to me that Cryptic is interested in at least exploring the possibility of making the game engine (or at least, the front end of the game engine) substantially similar to the HERO System (within the realities of an MMO's needs, I'm sure). If they didn't have any interest in that at all, why bother even bringing it up?

Personally, I suspect (and this is just a SWAG on my part) that the final result -- while not identical to the HERO System/Champions -- will be close enough to it that longtime Champions players will easily recognize it as being based on Champions.

[Spence]

According to the currently released information there will be Archetypes. All Archetypes will have access to all powers, but the powers will have different costs depending on which Archetype you've chosen.

And that is good for me. A MMO is not a PnP and I don't expect it to be. I just want the general flexability to still be there. How it is coded I leave to the people that have that set of skills ;)

Personally, I suspect (and this is just a SWAG on my part) that the final result -- while not identical to the HERO System/Champions -- will be close enough to it that longtime Champions players will easily recognize it as being based on Champions.

and that would also work for me. I do hope that it will support the solo player. I just don't see myself with enough free time to live on a MMO, but i would like to play a few times a month.

[CorPse]

It's also worth noting that at the announcement seminar at DunDraCon '08, Darren mentioned that there was an agreement in place that would allow Cryptic to refer to the game engine as "the HERO System online" if they wanted to (even though Cryptic did not buy the HERO System from DOJ) if DOJ deemed the final rules engine for the MMO similar enough to the "real" HERO System.

Now, that's certainly no guarantee that the MMO rules engine will turn out to be that similar to the real HERO System. But the simple fact that the subject came up and was discussed, tacitly implies to me that Cryptic is interested in at least exploring the possibility of making the game engine (or at least, the front end of the game engine) substantially similar to the HERO System (within the realities of an MMO's needs, I'm sure). If they didn't have any interest in that at all, why bother even bringing it up?

Personally, I suspect (and this is just a SWAG on my part) that the final result -- while not identical to the HERO System/Champions -- will be close enough to it that longtime Champions players will easily recognize it as being based on Champions.

It would fun and sort of weird for someone like me that started playing back in the day.

"My little Hero done growed up an' become a big ol' MMO."

[Catseye]

Ignoring for a moment the question of right to use rules...

(see Parker Bros. v. Anti Monpopoly. The upshot is that Copyright with regard to written works only covers text and artwork, not ideas, and rules systems are ideas. Trademark, often misunderstood, only cover your right not to have someone make your customers think they are you.)

I'm not upset that they arent using HERO rules. I've just lost any interest in the project. Its like a Champions cartoon to me, and I wouldn't watch that, either.

However I think they have made a big mistake in that the rules ARE of core interest to the Champions core audience.... and I'm not sure that they haven't just lost most of not all marketing value to the IP.

[CorPse]

However I think they have made a big mistake in that the rules ARE of core interest to the Champions core audience.... and I'm not sure that they haven't just lost most of not all marketing value to the IP.

Well, there's certainly a lot of interest in COMMO forums... and many of those people seem to be Champs old-timers and people that had stopped playing that are getting lured back in.

[Mojo_Bones]

To be honest, I never for one moment thought they would be using Hero rules for character creation. As has been said, there is just no way it could be done. And I as well am still very interested in the MMO and would be considered an "old timer" I guess since I started playing back in the early/mid 80's. I really don't think they will lose that many people do to this. (I think they may have lost more if they tried it actually)

Basically what I am saying is "I like your ideas and would be interested in receiving your news letter."

[Rapier]

For many people, Champions and Hero System are one and the same.

Funny you say that.

You see, for a long time there was no Hero System. It was Champions. The Hero System grew out of Champions.

There is still this guy I chat with over email every once and again that refers to things as "Fantasy Champs."

It is, what it is. Hero got its start as Supers, the Supers genre is probably THE hardest to represent. I'm saying that it is much easier to make a SuperHero system Fantasy-able than it is to make a Fantasy system SuperHero-albe.

The root of Fan is, of course, Fanatic. 'Nough said.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I'm not upset that they arent using HERO rules. I've just lost any interest in the project.Obviously you're free to do as you like, but isn't it a little early to lose any interest, based on assumptions about a game engine that isn't even close to being done yet? How similar to the HERO rules would it ultimately have to be in order to hold your interest? Would it have to be 100% identical? Or would 95% work? At this point, we don't really know how similar or dissimilar it will be...

[Derek Hiemforth]

You see, for a long time there was no Hero System. It was Champions. The Hero System grew out of Champions.

There is still this guy I chat with over email every once and again that refers to things as "Fantasy Champs."
Well, let's see. In July, Champions/HERO will have been around for 27 years. In that time, there was Champions-only for 2 years, and the HERO System for 25 years. Yeah, that qualifies for "for a long time there was no Hero System." :winkgrin:

Seriously, I've always wondered whether people who insist on calling the game system itself "Champions" also apply this inability to adapt to change to the rest of the things in life. Do they still call Nissan cars "Datsuns?" :D

[Ghostwalker]

As far as I'm concerned this is a great thing. As many people have pointed out its the Hero System rules that are most important, not the Champions Universe. This will not ruin the game we know and love, instead it will hopefully attract people to the PnP game and increase sales. The rules have not been sold so if the relationship ever becomes strained between the two companies, Hero can just release another superhero genre sourcebook called "Defenders" or something....

Also, Steve and Darren and Co. have obviously made some money from the transaction and increased future sales will only help to cement the companies future in the turbulent roleplaying game world...

I'm delighted with the bright future this brings and as long as there is never a "Champions D20" I'll be happy...

[Lord Mhoram]

Well, let's see. In July, Champions/HERO will have been around for 27 years. In that time, there was Champions-only for 2 years, and the HERO System for 25 years. Yeah, that qualifies for "for a long time there was no Hero System." :winkgrin:


:)

But while there was a "Hero System" it was actually a game engine, rather than a complete game system until 4th.

[archermoo]

Seriously, I've always wondered whether people who insist on calling the game system itself "Champions" also apply this inability to adapt to change to the rest of the things in life. Do they still call Nissan cars "Datsuns?" :D

To some people, yes. :)

[Spence]

Well, let's see. In July, Champions/HERO will have been around for 27 years. In that time, there was Champions-only for 2 years, and the HERO System for 25 years. Yeah, that qualifies for "for a long time there was no Hero System." :winkgrin:

Seriously, I've always wondered whether people who insist on calling the game system itself "Champions" also apply this inability to adapt to change to the rest of the things in life. Do they still call Nissan cars "Datsuns?" :D

I think the biggest reason is that it doesn't have anything to do with when Hero System was coined into existence in reality. Most people I talk too never remember the Hero System Rulebook at first, but they always remember the BBB, which was the Rulebook plus the Champions book in one cover billed as Champions: The Super Role-Playing Game. For many people that was the game until Hero put out 5th. It has also welded the two words together for many.

Many still call soda's cokes and say "let's take my car" when they drive a pickup or van ;)

[Spence]

As far as I'm concerned this is a great thing. As many people have pointed out its the Hero System rules that are most important, not the Champions Universe. This will not ruin the game we know and love, instead it will hopefully attract people to the PnP game and increase sales. The rules have not been sold so if the relationship ever becomes strained between the two companies, Hero can just release another superhero genre sourcebook called "Defenders" or something....

Also, Steve and Darren and Co. have obviously made some money from the transaction and increased future sales will only help to cement the companies future in the turbulent roleplaying game world...[/QUOTE]

can't argue that any of that :thumbup:



I'm delighted with the bright future this brings and as long as there is never a "Champions D20" I'll be happy...


Arrrgghhhh!!!! :eek: You said the word. Aaaahhhhhh!!! You must immediately perform some kind of appeasement or ritual to ward of the D20 demons....:shock:


Aaahhhhhhh!!!! I said D20 :stupid::fear:



AARRRGGGhhhhhhhhh! I said IT again……aaahhhhhhhh :shock:



;)

[Mojo_Bones]

I still call it Champions, and frequently have to edit myself when responding to things on these boards. My friends and I played "Champions" for way more than 2 years, I think we played it for about 10. I know they started putting the Hero name over or under or around the word Champions, but it was still pretty prominent on the books for quite some time.

[cutsleeve]

Whens the beta?

:D

[mayapuppies]

Whens the beta?

:D
For the Datsun? :thumbup:

[lemming]

The new Datsun Beta!

Though I could see a car named a Beta, but more after the fish.

Already done: 1977 Lancia Beta Montecarlo (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7956f377a4f0da179ebe493664eca1cb)
No fish involved

[Tom Carman]

According to the currently released information there will be Archetypes. All Archetypes will have access to all powers, but the powers will have different costs depending on which Archetype you've chosen.

Just the approach I hoped they would not take <sigh>. I would have preferred just making some powers more expensive in combination with certain specified other powers; but I can see how the Archetype approach simplifies their design process and avoids a ton of "special-casing". The SWG-NGE debacle has left me with an extremely negative view of the very idea of "character classes", that's all.

[Mojo_Bones]

Just the approach I hoped they would not take <sigh>. I would have preferred just making some powers more expensive in combination with certain specified other powers; but I can see how the Archetype approach simplifies their design process and avoids a ton of "special-casing". The SWG-NGE debacle has left me with an extremely negative view of the very idea of "character classes", that's all.

I have no idea what the SWG-NGE debacle is. Care to fill us in?

[Spence]

Just the approach I hoped they would not take <sigh>. I would have preferred just making some powers more expensive in combination with certain specified other powers; but I can see how the Archetype approach simplifies their design process and avoids a ton of "special-casing". The SWG-NGE debacle has left me with an extremely negative view of the very idea of "character classes", that's all.

I have no idea what the SWG-NGE debacle is. But the entire cookie cutter class concept is what would have ended my playing RPG's in any form if it wasn't for Hero. I can see how they need somekind of structure for a computer game, so I can see the need for something. If the "archtypes" are just loose structures within the programming that determine cost ratios, but do not limit access to the lists of things that can be purchased. Then I can live with them.

If on the other hand, they go actual classes+levels they will have killed the game before it started.

Player: "What do you mean my PC can't have heat beams from his eye's?!"

Class Level System: "Well that is an Energy Projector power and your PC is a Brick"

Player: "Superman’s a Brick, but he has Heat Beams, Heat Vision and can Fly."

Class Level System: "Errrr... UUmmmm...Well that is irrelevant. This is Better.”

Player: “Why?”

Class Level System: “Because, just shut up now and be a good little sheeple.”

Player: {views CLS suspiciously} “Are you from WotC?”

;):D

[SylvanSnake]

Why do people assume that just because Cryptic has rights to use the Champions IP that they have total ownership of the RPG name anyway? Other companies have made similar arrangements and have not had hostile takeovers. Must be paranoia working here.

[Tom Carman]

I can see that some people here are newcomers to the world of Massively-Multiplayer Online Games. Stick around a bit and you will hear all about Star Wars Galaxies and its New Gaming "Enhancements".

Imagine if you will, a free-form character creation system with no classes or overt levels. Every player get 250 points to spend on skills. Basic professions (Artisan, Brawler, Entertainer, Marksman, Medic, Scout) have no XP requirements, just an investment of 15 SP to start as a Novice. Using your professional skills generates specific types of XP (pistol, rifle, unarmed, polearm, healing, crafting, etc.), and when you have enough XP you can spend SP on a "skill box". Depending on the profession, the skill box gives access to new weapons or crafting schematics, special attacks, or improves skills (healing speed, weapon accuracy, attack speed, etc.). Beyond the basic professions are Elite and Hybrid professions: Rifleman, Smuggler, Fencer, Armorsmith, Shipwright, Bioengineer, Chef, Doctor, Dancer, Commando, and many more. You only get 250 SP, but you can drop skill boxes and recover the SP to spend on different skills. Master a profession or two to do a few things very well, or be a jack-of-all-trades to do many things adequately; it's up to you to define your own play style. If you want to be a Master Artisan (making vehicles and low-end food buffs) who also crafts low-end medicines, hunts and harvests animal meat and hides, and also plays a mean Chidinkalu Horn down at the cantina, that's fine.

Enter World of Warcraft, and the definition of a successful online game is radically changed. A quarter-million players (once among the top 5 in the country) pales next to WoW's multi-millions, and companies get greedy. The changes start with a "Combat Upgrade" that imposes overt levels for the first time; instead of your skills defining your combat capability, it becomes "levels uber alles". Many crafting professions are seriously harmed, and medical crafting reduced to a faint shadow of its former importance. Entertainment professions are decimated as their former functions are eliminated or drastically downgraded and changed. Player interdependence suffers. There are mass protests (ignored of course) and a dramatic exodus. But the player base rebounds: damaged as the game was, it's still better (deeper, subtler, more flexible) than most of the rest.

November 2, 2005 brings the announcement of the "New Game Enhancements", which go on Test Center by the weekend, and go live on 11/15. Professions and skill points are gone. You pick a class, and that's all there is to it. You are basically identical to every other member of your class (they later ripped off WoW's talent system to provide some minimal differentiation). Crafting (the old mainspring of the game) becomes all but worthless as loot is elevated far above a crafter's best efforts; the in-game money faucet is turned full-on, and the game economy tanks. In a rare moment of honesty, the game's operators acknowledge that they expect many players to quit; but that's fine because they think that a dumbed-down linear game will bring in many times more than they lose. This time, the exodus is far larger than their worst projections, and all those extremely angry ex-customers make sure that EVERYONE hears about how badly they were skr3w3d. The anticipated vast influx of new players never comes. The game continues to tank, with population levels now down by an estimated 80-90%. Star Wars Galaxies is the industry's poster child for things to never ever EVER do to your game and customers.

[Vondy]

Since MMO's and table top games are completely different mediums of entertainment: why would anyone care?

What works for people at a table (a particuliar conflict and task resolution system) does not necessarily work for a computer game.

What are they supposed to do: code in a to hit roll using the OCV system, or damage and defenses done ala hero, or 3D6 vs. target number skill rolls that you will never see?

Have you build hero characters when large parts of the character sheet don't translate into the medium well?

Its a computer game, not an RPG, no matter how you dress it up. It runs on invisible computer code and graphics, not hero-mechanics, dice, paper, and your imagination.

Apples and freaking oranges.

If it functioned like hero it wouldn't be a computer game. It would be an online RPG. That's not what an MMO is.

Not only that - do you have any idea how difficult it would be to develop an actual online RPG that mimmiced the RPG experience, let alone the hero experience?

Its simply not feasible with current technological and economic limitations.

The only thing Hero has that ports over to the medium easily is its Setting IP.

If it raises awareness its good.

[rjcurrie]

Why do people assume that just because Cryptic has rights to use the Champions IP that they have total ownership of the RPG name anyway? Other companies have made similar arrangements and have not had hostile takeovers. Must be paranoia working here.

Hero Games sold the Champions and Dark Champions IP to Cryptic. In exchange, Hero Games got a free license to print PnP RPG products using that IP in perpetuity and gets access to concept art for the MMO for use in those products. These products must be approved by Cryptic. There are protections for Hero Games in the deal such as the requirement of Cryptic to pay a large sum of money to Hero to revoke the license among others.

[CorPse]

Hero Games sold the Champions and Dark Champions IP to Cryptic. In exchange, Hero Games got a free license to print PnP RPG products using that IP in perpetuity and gets access to concept art for the MMO for use in those products. These products must be approved by Cryptic. There are protections for Hero Games in the deal such as the requirement of Cryptic to pay a large sum of money to Hero to revoke the license among others.

And, as has been pointed out... there's nothing to stop Hero from developing Supers products outside of the CU if things did go sour. (And they'd be able to do so with all of the buyout money that Rod mentions above.)

[cutsleeve]

I'm personally not upset. I realized along time ago that the hero system would result in an EPIC FAIL if they tried to port it to a MMO. It would be difficult to even make a single player game using the system. The IP however and the over all concept of ultimate customization is perfect.

I have never played in a straight Champions U campaign but those character appeared in many champs 4th ed games and I loved that. When the game comes out I'm joining, unless I can get in the beta that is.

[i3ullseye]

Well, I think what needs to be maintained is the feel of the HERO system. No levels, point based designs, advantages, limitations, etc...... Otherwise they could just add Mechanon and Defender to City of Heroes and call it done.

A simplified version of HERO could certainly work for character creation and game balancing. Ever play Freedom Force? Great game, and very much felt like a great start at a HERO system PC game.

For me, while I love the IP, it really isn't as flushed out as say Marvel or LOTR obviously. And the COH/COV story is actually pretty indepth. I know more overall about characters and histories there than i do in Champions... and I been playing since version 1 of the game. Having a background is not huge for developing MMOs. There is just way more content in online games than many PnP game books can provide.

but the argument here isn't just about that. For me, if the new game is level based, as excited as I am by the prospect, i will probably never play. Why not just play COH/COV then? The game is fantastic, so why rehash it?

So to me, the HERO rules issues are more of overall approach. And for my dollar, it has to be there to make this game worthwhile.

[wrestlinggeek]

I have no idea what the SWG-NGE debacle is. But the entire cookie cutter class concept is what would have ended my playing RPG's in any form if it wasn't for Hero. I can see how they need somekind of structure for a computer game, so I can see the need for something. If the "archtypes" are just loose structures within the programming that determine cost ratios, but do not limit access to the lists of things that can be purchased. Then I can live with them.

If on the other hand, they go actual classes+levels they will have killed the game before it started.

Player: "What do you mean my PC can't have heat beams from his eye's?!"

Class Level System: "Well that is an Energy Projector power and your PC is a Brick"

Player: "Superman’s a Brick, but he has Heat Beams, Heat Vision and can Fly."

Class Level System: "Errrr... UUmmmm...Well that is irrelevant. This is Better.”

Player: “Why?”

Class Level System: “Because, just shut up now and be a good little sheeple.”

Player: {views CLS suspiciously} “Are you from WotC?”

;):D

As has been said in the Game Informer article, and a few times in this discussion, anyone can buy any power. The only diffrence your archetype (and please note, it is archetype, not character class. You know, things like Brick, Blaster, Speedster, etc.) makes is the cost. Some archetypes pay more points (hmm... seems like it'll be a combination of points and levels, since the article did mention a level-cap at 50) for certain powers than other ones. So yes, you can have a flying brick with eyebeams. You'll just pay more for them than the energy blaster would, just as he has to pay more for super-strength and armor skin than your brick does. Sorry if I'm a little ranty here, but I haven't slept all night. Oh, and how does one go about getting into a Beta test? I would love to be able to do that.

[Savinien]

There once was a Champions MU*. It took three weeks to finalize chargen for me.

[Checkmate]

One of my main concerns is that Level systems are easier to control and fix if they get borked. As a developer, you pretty much know EXACTLY what a level 15 Wizard can do. If they can do too much by comparison you drop it a little or vice versa.

On the other hand, when you have a point based system, where anyone can buy anything, the developers have to look at every single combination of powers to see if anything gets borked. I mean what do you do if Power A is ridiculously if combined with Power B but underpowered if combined with Power C? Do you add limitations like "Loses power hen combined with Power B"?

To make matters worse, the majority of MMO players simply cannot or will not make the simple logical step of a complex system is harder to troubleshoot than a simple system. I know, it sounds like a very easy concept, but it blows the minds of the majority of MMO players (take a look at some old Star Wars: Galaxies boards if you don't believe me).

As far as the original post, meh it would probably be better if they didn't adhere to Hero System rules. Although the part I dislike most about Hero is the Champions background.

[Enforcer84]

Funny you say that.

You see, for a long time there was no Hero System. It was Champions. The Hero System grew out of Champions.

There is still this guy I chat with over email every once and again that refers to things as "Fantasy Champs."

It is, what it is. Hero got its start as Supers, the Supers genre is probably THE hardest to represent. I'm saying that it is much easier to make a SuperHero system Fantasy-able than it is to make a Fantasy system SuperHero-albe.

The root of Fan is, of course, Fanatic. 'Nough said.
Ain't that the truth. I'll never forget the time my GM tried to do an X-Men campaign in Tunnels & Trolls.

[Log-Man]

Why do people assume that just because Cryptic has rights to use the Champions IP that they have total ownership of the RPG name anyway? Other companies have made similar arrangements and have not had hostile takeovers. Must be paranoia working here.They got Paranoia, too?? :eek:

[lemming]

Paranoia would make a great MMO. Just have to figure how to frame other clones...

[mikesama]

Okay I got a friend working at Cryptic and he ran me through my first Champions game. From what he's said they're gonna start working with the engine they were planning on doing the Marvel Universe MMO with. According to him they were getting the engine set up to copy EVERY! power used in Marvel. I figure that should have some pretty good flexability. Honestly level based or not as long as there is flexibility I can deal with it.

[Tom Carman]

To make matters worse, the majority of MMO players simply cannot or will not make the simple logical step of a complex system is harder to troubleshoot than a simple system. I know, it sounds like a very easy concept, but it blows the minds of the majority of MMO players (take a look at some old Star Wars: Galaxies boards if you don't believe me).

And sometimes troubleshooting that complex system is not as hard as some people like to claim it is. Especially when a lot of the "major issues!" are actually fairly minor ones that got magnified by one or two poorly-considered design elements. Complex systems, in which everything tends to affect everything else, are infamous for unintended consequences. Not so much attention is given to how fixing a "root cause" diminishes or removes the knock-on effects.

[Checkmate]

And sometimes troubleshooting that complex system is not as hard as some people like to claim it is. Especially when a lot of the "major issues!" are actually fairly minor ones that got magnified by one or two poorly-considered design elements. Complex systems, in which everything tends to affect everything else, are infamous for unintended consequences. Not so much attention is given to how fixing a "root cause" diminishes or removes the knock-on effects.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In the first part of your post you seem to disagree, but then go on to say what I was saying.

What may seem like a "minor" fix can actually be a major undertaking when, as you've said, everything is connected to everything else. A lot of MMO players only look small scale and think "All they need to do to fix it is X". They don't stop to consider that doing X will also have an impact on A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N, and O. And if A, C, and D get effected that means P,Q,R,S,T,U,V also need adjusting.

The more options players have, the harder things are to control (another example of simple logic that seems to escape the common MMO'er), so while I'm a HUGE fan of skill based character advancement, or anyone can do anything, I just hope that people understand that complications involved with that.

[Tom Carman]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In the first part of your post you seem to disagree, but then go on to say what I was saying.

What may seem like a "minor" fix can actually be a major undertaking when, as you've said, everything is connected to everything else. A lot of MMO players only look small scale and think "All they need to do to fix it is X". They don't stop to consider that doing X will also have an impact on A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N, and O. And if A, C, and D get effected that means P,Q,R,S,T,U,V also need adjusting.

The more options players have, the harder things are to control (another example of simple logic that seems to escape the common MMO'er), so while I'm a HUGE fan of skill based character advancement, or anyone can do anything, I just hope that people understand that complications involved with that.

I guess I'm still fighting the Pre-CU "combat imbalance" war. As far as I'm concerned, the Star Wars Galaxies developers wasted a year trying to tweak mobs and build the Combat Upgrade Revamp/Balance, only to finally dump it all for a level-based system (the CU) that broke things even worse (for anyone who wasn't "all combat all the time").

The "root cause" of much (by no means ALL) of Pre-CU's combat imbalance was the fact that super-buffing secondary stats created a near godmode condition, and the devs seemed to be trying to fix everything except that. It removed the downside of wearing heavy armor: most people then wore only max-protection gear and complained that "everyone looks the same!". It removed the downside of spamming max-damage attacks. It slightly dumbed-down crafting, because armor became all about the resists and weapons were all about the speed/damage; all other considerations could be safely ignored. Godmode players in maxxed-out armor and weapons could solo missions with a money pay-out intended for a full group, and inflation got worse. The doctors' uber-buff created a veritable Hydra of problems... and was never touched.

The "All they need to do to fix it is X" argument isn't necessarily wrong, if "X" is a sufficiently root cause and you can do a before-and-after comparison to demonstrate where the troubles started.

[SylvanSnake]

Well, I think what needs to be maintained is the feel of the HERO system. No levels, point based designs, advantages, limitations, etc...... Otherwise they could just add Mechanon and Defender to City of Heroes and call it done.


A totally point based system with no levels would not work very well in an MMO such as this imo. There has to be a way to set a cap on the power level players can achieve. Some of the biggest issues in almost every MMO on the market are farmers who sell in-game goods for real money, and power leveling. If you made a game system where there was no limit, these groups would literally have the ability to ruin the game servers and unbalance the pvp aspects that may or may not be present in the game.

A reasonable compromise would be to have characters receive a set amount of character points to buy powers and such when they level up. This would still make it possible to have a maximum level so maxed out characters can all be roughly the same power level.

[shivermoon]

Something that should always be remembered is that the product we get is coming from companies. Companies may do a lot to look out for their core customer group, but they ultimately need to make a dollar.

What I mean by that is that having the HERO system in all its complex and convoluted glory will scare many more casual gamers off, and deter people that don't want to learn a whole rules system to play a game. Using some ideas, like the ability to customize effects or get skills that traditionally belong to another archetype at a higher cost, is wonderful. But throwing the BBB at new players, younger players, casual players will lead to a player base way too small to support its own cost.