What makes an Advantage Naked?

[Lord Liaden]

This exchange took place yesterday on the Rules Questions forum, and I thought it worthy of further discussion:



I have already posted a possible bug report to Simon because I think that Hero Designer has this wrong, but perhaps I am missing something.

I am building a vehicle. I buy Hardened as a Naked Advantage for its DEF. This Naked Advantage should not cost END. Do I have this correct?



No. As stated on 5ER 245, naked Advantages (except Reduced Endurance) cost END. This remains true even if the power(s) they can apply to do not themselves cost END.



I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. I've seen a number of published vehicle writeups, such as the M1A1 Abrams tank in The Ultimate Vehicle, which have Hardened for their DEF, presumably as a Naked Advantage, and their END cost listed as 0, with no additional cost to the Advantage to reduce its Endurance use. Not to mention the published supers characters, such as Mechanon and Durak, who also have Hardened on their normal PD and ED with no END cost. I couldn't find any errata for those books on that subject.



OK, that is a fair observation. Perhaps Hardened is an exception. I'll consider the issue further.

Up until this point was raised, I had never considered Hardened on natural Defense to be a Naked Advantage as defined by the rules. To me, the Advantage is simply applied to the points in DEF as it would be to any Power, adding to the total Active Points for all purposes. I can't see any reason why the DEF would be used without it, which is one of the main purposes of allowing Naked Advantages. Simply listing Hardened separately on a character sheet should not, IMO, automatically mean that it's Naked; there simply isn't another place to write it where it would be automatically associated with the character, vehicle, etc.'s Defense.

I usually treat Advantages on Strength the same way, as adding to the Active Points and END usage, and always having to be accounted for when using STR, i.e. STR with Armor Piercing always has to pay END for the Advantage, as with any other Advantaged Power.

I require my players to specify whether any Advantage on their Characteristics is supposed to be Naked or not, and to be Naked the Advantage has to be conceptually distinct from what it modifies, e.g. have different Special Effects or Modifiers, that would justify it being taken Naked. If it does it follows the rules for Naked Advantages, otherwise I treat it like any Advantage on a Power.

Normally the Modifiers listed for such an Advantage, or the name of it reflecting its SFX, tell me immediately whether it should be considered Naked or not, so I've never felt the need for any dedicated designation for it on a character sheet; although were this distinction ever to become official, some type of formal notation would probably be appropriate.

Has anyone else run into this issue? What standards do you use to decide whether a particular advantage can or should be Naked?

[Sean Waters]

Hardened doesn't cost END (unless it is put on a power that aleardy costs END, like Force Field) but a naked advantage is a seperate special power that, by the rules, does cost END. It is one of the few potential negatives for naked advantages: mind you I can't see why you'd want to buy hardened as a naked advantage in 99% of cases.

I'd agree with you that you can buy hardened for natural defences as EITHER a naked advantage or as part of the cost of the ability. This causes Hero Designer some difficulties (although not insurmountable ones) but doesn't seem a problem for the pen and paper game.

The defences, assuming the advantage is not bought naked, are ALWAYS hardened. That might occasionally cause a problem but only very, very rarely.

I always assume that an advantage is NOT naked unless it is specified as naked. Generally it should be obvious from context - I only allow NAs to be used if there is not other way to accomplish the effect.

[Simon]

Errr...It's easy to do in HD.

As a Naked Advantage: Purchase "Naked Advantage", assign Hardened, and set the points for the base Power appropriately (to the cost of the Vehicle's DEF, in this case).

As a modification of the base Characteristic (not a Naked Advantage): Open "DEF" on the Powers tab, check "Apply Modifiers to Base Characteristic" and then assign Hardened.

[ghost-angel]

As Simon pointed out - it's not really a Naked Advantage, it's Hardened applied to the Base Characteristic.

They are different things.

[Edsel]

For my original vehicle question the cheapest solution is to keep the vehicle's base DEF at two (or buy it down to 0) and then buy armor instead.

[Simon]

For my original vehicle question the cheapest solution is to keep the vehicle's base DEF at two (or buy it down to 0) and then buy armor instead.
Err...not really.

20 DEF as a Characteristics plus Hardened on the base Characteristic costs you 54 points for the base Characteristic, plus 15 points for the Hardened -- 69 points total.

Selling off the base 2 points of DEF and buying 20/20 Armor costs you -6 points for the sell-off of DEF plus 75 points for the Armor. The net total is 69 points -- exactly what you would get for building it as straight DEF.

[Vondy]

Historically, one can purchase hardened for characteristics (PD and ED) without having to pay endurance for the advantage (see officially published characters built where this was the case). As a result, I have always allowed characters to purchase hardened for their PD and ED without having to pay endurance - and it never occured to me that they should. Under the current edition (where naked advantages really cropped up), I would argue this implies one can purchase hardened as a part of the characteristic it is purchased for, or as a naked advantage that can be applied to any defense. I think, beyond grandfathering, hardened purchased for a characteristic (PD and ED) is not conceptually a naked advantage and should not be defined as such. A similar example would be "difficult to dispell" purchased for a specific primary characteristic. Is it a part of the characteristic, or a naked advantage? I would argue it should be treated as the former.

[Kenn]

The advantage to being naked is that your clothes don't chafe.

[Hyper-Man]

...

As a modification of the base Characteristic (not a Naked Advantage): Open "DEF" on the Powers tab, check "Apply Modifiers to Base Characteristic" and then assign Hardened.

The KEY is remembering to choose the base characteristic from the Powers list.

[ghost-angel]

Historically, one can purchase hardened for characteristics (PD and ED) without having to pay endurance for the advantage (see officially published characters built where this was the case). As a result, I have always allowed characters to purchase hardened for their PD and ED without having to pay endurance - and it never occured to me that they should. Under the current edition (where naked advantages really cropped up), I would argue this implies one can purchase hardened as a part of the characteristic it is purchased for, or as a naked advantage that can be applied to any defense. I think, beyond grandfathering, hardened purchased for a characteristic (PD and ED) is not conceptually a naked advantage and should not be defined as such. A similar example would be "difficult to dispell" purchased for a specific primary characteristic. Is it a part of the characteristic, or a naked advantage? I would argue it should be treated as the former.

As you point out - they are conceptually different.

Buying an Advantage for a Characteristic is the same as buying an Advantage for any other Power - it makes that Advantage a part of the Power.

A Naked Advantage is a Power in its own right.

[Edsel]

Err...not really.

20 DEF as a Characteristics plus Hardened on the base Characteristic costs you 54 points for the base Characteristic, plus 15 points for the Hardened -- 69 points total.

Selling off the base 2 points of DEF and buying 20/20 Armor costs you -6 points for the sell-off of DEF plus 75 points for the Armor. The net total is 69 points -- exactly what you would get for building it as straight DEF.
Argh. You are right I forgot that I'd still have to buy the PD and ED separately. Oh well it is for equipment in a heroic game so the point totals really don't have a cap, I'll just buy the Naked Advantage with a 0 END Advantage.

[braincraft]

What makes an Advantage naked?

About three cosmopolitans and a sex on the beach.

[Simon]

Argh. You are right I forgot that I'd still have to buy the PD and ED separately. Oh well it is for equipment in a heroic game so the point totals really don't have a cap, I'll just buy the Naked Advantage with a 0 END Advantage.
Again: why jump through all those hoops? Just do it right: buy DEF as a Power (you don't need to purchase any levels...just leave it at +0 DEF), check off "Apply Modifiers to Base Characteristic" and assign Hardened. Done.

[Lord Liaden]

Dan, you're forgetting you're talking to HERO gamers. All the hoop-jumping is part of exploring the philosophical underpinning of "why" something should be done a particular way. Such pure pragmatism as yours is missing the point of our glorious obsession. :angel:

[Sean Waters]

Errr...It's easy to do in HD.

As a Naked Advantage: Purchase "Naked Advantage", assign Hardened, and set the points for the base Power appropriately (to the cost of the Vehicle's DEF, in this case).

As a modification of the base Characteristic (not a Naked Advantage): Open "DEF" on the Powers tab, check "Apply Modifiers to Base Characteristic" and then assign Hardened.

Sheesh, man, you expect me to read the documentation?

You are quite right - it can be done and it isn't difficult BUT should you wish to apply a NA to base PD and ED for a character, you need to sell them both back and HD does get stressy about that. Can't imagine WHY you'd want a NA for that though, you'd just buy the advantage straight.

Say, is that a hoop over there? Back in a minute...

[Hyper-Man]

Sheesh, man, you expect me to read the documentation?

You are quite right - it can be done and it isn't difficult BUT should you wish to apply a NA to base PD and ED for a character, you need to sell them both back and HD does get stressy about that. Can't imagine WHY you'd want a NA for that though, you'd just buy the advantage straight.

Say, is that a hoop over there? Back in a minute...

Sean,

As usual your still missing the point. :D
It is not required to sell back any base characteristics.
There is a checkbox in HD that allows advantages to apply to base characteristics.

[ghost-angel]

Sheesh, man, you expect me to read the documentation?

You are quite right - it can be done and it isn't difficult BUT should you wish to apply a NA to base PD and ED for a character, you need to sell them both back and HD does get stressy about that. Can't imagine WHY you'd want a NA for that though, you'd just buy the advantage straight.

Say, is that a hoop over there? Back in a minute...

Again... applying Advantages to a Base Characteristic and buying a Naked Advantage for a Base Characteristic are two completely separate things.

And neither requires you to sell back anything.

[Sean Waters]

Sheesh, man (men), you expect me to actually read what is on the screen?

[Hyper-Man]

Sheesh, man (men), you expect me to actually read...?

You mean those aren't reading glasses you're wearing? :cool: