Penetrating a FW without collapsing it...

[MarkusDark]

So, I wanted to build a Gamma World type of instant shelter device for Star Hero. The idea is that You create a force wall with a minimal amount of PD to keep out the elements, add in a Change environment to keep things warm and dry inside and you have an instant emergency shelter. My only thought to add to it would be some way to have people be able to walk in and out of the area without having to drop the Force Wall.

Any ideas on how to do it? I was originally thinking having some sort of device (a wrist band) that could pass through it freely as well as allow anyone wearing it to pass through. Someone shows up, you toss him a wrist band and he walks in. Not suring how to do even that though...

Of course, if this is already in TE or SH (Just got the books today) I'm just bein' silly...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
I was originally thinking having some sort of device (a wrist band) that could pass through it freely as well as allow anyone wearing it to pass through. Someone shows up, you toss him a wrist band and he walks in. Not suring how to do even that though...For the sake of the example, this assumes a Force Wall of 4 PD / 4 Ed.

Wrist Band of Safe Passage: Personal Immunity to Force Wall (5 Base Points), Usable By Other at Range (+3/4). (9 Active Points), OIF Wristband (-1/2). Real Cost: 6 points.

Edited typo in Limitation value

[GamePhil]

A couple of things come to mind.

Buy Personal Immunity on the Force Wall. Put the PI on the OAF: Wristband, and make it Universal.

Again, with the Universal Focus: buy Desolidification, only to go through walls, only your Force Wall.

Buy the Force Wall Selective, allowing you to open it when people come in.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Wrist Band of Safe Passage: Personal Immunity to Force Wall (5 Base Points), Usable By Other at Range (+3/4). (9 Active Points), OIF Wristband (-1/4). Real Cost: 6 points.

Ya gotta be quick in this business...

Say, why is the Wristband -1/4?

[Kintara]

You think a similar ability (like a naked Personal Immunity, Usable on Others, Area Effect) might work to describe a one way Force Wall? One way would mean you can attack out but not in.

We were thinking that maybe another Defensive power is required for something like that.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by GamePhil
Ya gotta be quick in this business...

Say, why is the Wristband -1/4? A bad edit. ;) I originally wrote it as IIF, changed my mind, and changed the Real Cost, but forgot to change the modifier value.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Kintara
You think a similar ability (like a naked Personal Immunity, Usable on Others, Area Effect) might work to describe a one way Force Wall? One way would mean you can attack out but not in? Sure. If I was the GM, I'd give such an ability a close look for game balance reasons, but I'd have no problem with the mechanics of building the effect like that.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Kintara
You think a similar ability (like a naked Personal Immunity, Usable on Others, Area Effect) might work to describe a one way Force Wall? One way would mean you can attack out but not in.

We were thinking that maybe another Defensive power is required for something like that.

It's probably best, usually, to not have Force Walls with Personal Immunity: this is a special case where GM leniency might be warranted. It's part of the balance of Force Wall that it blocks things both ways.

Probably.

In any event, another option would be to take a Naked Advantage: Indirect on a common attack power, like Energy Blast, and make that Usable By Others for several companions. Might be a good way to build a tank character, that is, an actual tank, rather than the character type of the same name.

[Killer Shrike]

Heres a post I threw up to Steve a while back trying to do an almost identical ability:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3476

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Heres a post I threw up to Steve a while back trying to do an almost identical ability:

I'm curious: what did you need the Force Wall for? You seemed to have everything covered without it.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by GamePhil
I'm curious: what did you need the Force Wall for? You seemed to have everything covered without it.
Keep rain and vermin out.

jk

Actually, I was using it for the Opaque properties. It seems silly to me to buy Darkness Hole in the Middle to make an Opaque screen, whereas Force Wall is essenetially a screen (covers a hex face) and has a way to do this built into it.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd just go without the Force Wall. Change Environment should be able to keep those inside dry and vermin-free anyway.

How big a deal is the fact the exterior is opaque? I can't see in, you can't see out. It's not like it will see combat use. If you want hard walls (and even 4/4 seems pretty hard - 4 resistant DEF is a failry tough object), then you need the Force Wall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Another thought - you could build it as a Base (pretty cheap for the size and DEF you're probably looking for) and define it as "summoned" by the wristband (or as a vehicle, since you can move it about - but the shelter itself doesn't move, so I'd call it Summon Base). Bases have opaque walls, and keep the rain and bugs out.

To clarify the mechanics, you would pay the full cost of tjhe base (ie compite base, divide by 5) and pay END for the Summon. Basically, the "portability" of the base offsets the END cost. You could buy the Summon no end. You can also make it pretty cheap with Extra time ("Just pull the switch, and in only a minute, you've got a complete shelter")

[MarkusDark]

Thanks for the info guys. For some reason, I didn't think you could by PI with a Force Wall...

I LOVE Force Walls and am working on a series of such items for Star Hero - nothing that is really combat related - more emergency and survival items.

[sbarron]

I agree with Hugh. This seems like change environment to me.

[RadeFox]

Change Environment is good, but its too, um, simple...not enough to hang your suspension of disbelief on.

Adding in a Force Wall, even a 1/1 or 2/2, give the players a point of reference for WHY its warm and dry inside. Also, any good explorer will be quick to point out, that the ability to make the walls opaque is a nice feature, especially if the local environment is full of flashing light bugs, or heavy storms.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that many things other then simple vermin might wander by in the night. Having a decent force wall in place could well mean the difference between life and death if a local carnivore happens upon you.

In old Traveller, Scouts often worked ALONE. So the ability to have a small force wall hut (I'd offer a 4/4 or 6/6 military/scout issue version) would be a highly sought commodity. The defense of the force wall, just as highly prized by solitary scouts and prospectors, on those lonely worlds filled with unknown and likely hostile critters.

[Killer Shrike]

Change Environment cannot totally block a sense, it can only apply PER modifiers. If a GM wants to handwave it thats immaterial, but mechanically you need to use Darkness of some form or an Opaque Force Wall or an Entangle that Blocks sense. I cant think of any other way to legally do it off hand. Images can kind of do it, but it gets weird if someone beats the PER roll and sees thru it.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Change Environment cannot totally block a sense, it can only apply PER modifiers. If a GM wants to handwave it thats immaterial, but mechanically you need to use Darkness of some form or an Opaque Force Wall or an Entangle that Blocks sense. I cant think of any other way to legally do it off hand. Images can kind of do it, but it gets weird if someone beats the PER roll and sees thru it. You could also theoretically do it as a really funky flash, but lets not even go there :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by RadeFox
Change Environment is good, but its too, um, simple...not enough to hang your suspension of disbelief on.

Adding in a Force Wall, even a 1/1 or 2/2, give the players a point of reference for WHY its warm and dry inside. Also, any good explorer will be quick to point out, that the ability to make the walls opaque is a nice feature, especially if the local environment is full of flashing light bugs, or heavy storms.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that many things other then simple vermin might wander by in the night. Having a decent force wall in place could well mean the difference between life and death if a local carnivore happens upon you.

In old Traveller, Scouts often worked ALONE. So the ability to have a small force wall hut (I'd offer a 4/4 or 6/6 military/scout issue version) would be a highly sought commodity. The defense of the force wall, just as highly prized by solitary scouts and prospectors, on those lonely worlds filled with unknown and likely hostile critters.

I wouldn't add the force wall to keep bugs out - I think the change environment is adequate. For personal defense during the night, rather than just comfort, the force wall makes sense.

Of course, isn't the force wall visible, audible and detectable by one other sense? Essentially, you are choosing defense at the cost of being more noticable, unless you pump up the cost and make that Wall invisible (except to sight - who cares if it's opaque - that was the idea).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by RadeFox
Change Environment is good, but its too, um, simple...not enough to hang your suspension of disbelief on.

Adding in a Force Wall, even a 1/1 or 2/2, give the players a point of reference for WHY its warm and dry inside. Also, any good explorer will be quick to point out, that the ability to make the walls opaque is a nice feature, especially if the local environment is full of flashing light bugs, or heavy storms.


Is a Force Wall impermeable? Air gets in (or you'd suffocate), so water should leak through a typical force wall as well. And it's not really insulated. The Change Environment covers both off anyway.

And it's warm and dry inside because it's surrounded by a wall of force. It's not a Force Wall (mechanic), but it is a force wall (SFX).

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
You could also theoretically do it as a really funky flash, but lets not even go there :D

Invisibility to Sight
Usable As Attack [+1]
Area of Effect Radius (4") [+1]
1 Continuing Charge of 8 hours [+0]
Bright Fringe [-1/4]
Only vs an immobile, inanimate hex [-2]
60 AP
18 RP

You could further reduce this by making it a focus, or increase the cost to include other senses.

- Ernie

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by sbarron
I agree with Hugh. This seems like change environment to me.

For the item from the question to Steve, I would tend to agree.

For the item in Gamma World, the original question, it actually puts up a force field (that is, Force Wall) that stops a small amount of damage from getting through.

[RadeFox]

my comment about the change environment being too simple, was that Id make this with BOTH the Force Wall and the Change Environment. Not just one or the other.

And as for making the Wall silent or whatever, its easy enough to do, and since its equipment, active points don't really mean much in the end. But you could designate the sound the Force wall makes as a sound that is annoying to most known insects and animals. Like a UV squeal or somesuch, to make the whole thing a bit more solid state. :)

[Old Man]

Another way to do it would be to do the entangle barrier thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by RadeFox
But you could designate the sound the Force wall makes as a sound that is annoying to most known insects and animals. Like a UV squeal or somesuch, to make the whole thing a bit more solid state. :)

Actually, I'd envision this being a lot like a fire - it keeps the animal predators away, but you're way more noticable to the sentient beings that may be in the area.

[Arthur]

If it's not a Superheroic campaign, why worry about all the point cost details? You need a PD and ED in case it is attacked and a defined size, but the rest of it can just be arbitrarily defined. Unless a character is paying points for it, who cares?

Insta-shelter: 1 hex radius, DEF 4. Keeps inside at 20 deg C and keeps out rain, wind, vermin, etc. Comes with a set of wristbands; anyone wearing the wristband can pass through the perimeter of the shelter as though it is not there (each wristband has to be tuned to a specific shelter).

See how much easier this is?

[DoItHTH]

I always wondered how to create a "Force Wall" that physically does not behave as a wall. A barrier that allows an individual to pass through as if it was not there but stops ranged attacks.

This is like the original post but would not require any special device to allow entre.

What about this?

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Arthur
If it's not a Superheroic campaign, why worry about all the point cost details? You need a PD and ED in case it is attacked and a defined size, but the rest of it can just be arbitrarily defined. Unless a character is paying points for it, who cares?

Insta-shelter: 1 hex radius, DEF 4. Keeps inside at 20 deg C and keeps out rain, wind, vermin, etc. Comes with a set of wristbands; anyone wearing the wristband can pass through the perimeter of the shelter as though it is not there (each wristband has to be tuned to a specific shelter).

See how much easier this is?

It's also easy to give a man a fish, but teaching a man to fish is harder.

Sure, if the device is only ever going to be in that one game you could do this. I like having it built and ready to take into another game if needed, or to run the cost through the Star HERO formulae to get a cost in credits, or to know how much of a penalty I have to my Gadgeteering roll to make modifications to it. For that matter, knowing what it is I'm making modifications to. It gives me an idea of the power level of a group that has equipment not paid for in points.

Perhaps he just has fun coming up with the write ups, or hearing about them. I do.

That's in under a minute, I'm sure I can come up with more. Nothing wrong with hand-waiving, but there are advantages to putting in a little extra.

[Talon]

Assume we want the "penetrable" Force Wall for whatever reason. (Perhaps a superhero wants to be able to trap people but walk in to question them.)

Option 1: Force Wall, Personal Immunity Usable By Others. This works fine, but it's a slightly dodgy mechanic (Force Walls with Personal Immunity can be easily abused).

Option 2: Force Wall with Computer which resizes the wall to create a gap when the right people want to enter. Also works fine, but has the side effect that the wrong people could slip in at the same time (which might be OK for the SFX or might not).

Option 3: Force Wall plus 1" Teleport Usable As Attack, Triggered by the right person trying to enter. Depending on GM, you could either have the Trigger auto-reset or have a Computer which operated the Trigger (or even ditch the Trigger and just have the computer bring people in). The SFX would be that the Force Wall was opening just enough to let that person in -- no actual Teleport would take place.

Option 4: Force Wall plus some sort of Suppress which would either be Triggered, operated by an inside Computer, or in a Focus carried around.

[Killer Shrike]

Perhaps an Adder for FW would appropriate, "Portal" for +5 Points you may open and close a mansized opening in the FW as a 0 Phase Action; you may not both open and close the opening in the same Phase. This opening may be attacked through by anyone on either side of the opening following normal rules for line of sight and targetting. "Permeable" for +5 points the FW stops attacks but allows people and objects to cross through it at will.

[MarkusDark]

As an FYI, the idea I had behind this is not to create an impenetrable mode of protection. It is suppose to be nothing more than a hi-tech tent.

The reason I didn't go with just a Change Environment is because, well, I don't like to use CE for something this 'reality changing'. To warm up and/or dry out an area, sure. But to keep rain, snow and sleet from hitting you while sleeping - I dun like it. The idea of a FW is so that simple rain and so on can be kept out while warmth is kept in, however if the conditions become TOO violent (such as hail the size of basketballs) the thing will go down.

It is meant as an emergency shelter type of thing so you wouldn't want to be invisible (normally).

[Talon]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
As an FYI, the idea I had behind this is not to create an impenetrable mode of protection. It is suppose to be nothing more than a hi-tech tent.

That's why I would stay away from Personal Immunity, it's asking for abuse. :)

Do the computer thing; something like:

Val Char Cost
0 DEX -30
3 INT -7
4 SPD 30
Characteristics Cost: -7

Cost Power
11 Sense Control Batons: Detect Batons 14-, Range, Sense; 2" Range (-1/4)
Powers Cost: 11

Cost Talent
1 Program: Transport target through Force Wall
1 Program: Emergency Shut-Down
Talents Cost: 2

Total Character Cost: 6 / 5 = 1

plus

28 Energy Shelter: Force Wall (3 PD/3 ED; 2" long and 2" tall), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2)
3 Enter/Exit Shelter: Teleportation 1", Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Indirect Any origin, always fired away from attacker (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1); only to transport through Force Wall (-1)

Buy it all OAF or whatever.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Do the computer thing; something like:


Say, that looks pretty good. I do admit I tend to not think of using Followers for things like this.

Which is a bit ironic, now that I think of it.

[Talon]

I like the feel: characters may have to wait a bit for the computer to notice them; characters in combat may be dodging too much for the computer to "lock on"; someone with hacking or cyberkinetic ability can override the function to break in; etc.

Hm, Online Spacer's Toolkit...

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Hm, Online Spacer's Toolkit...

Hey! What do you think I was working on this for??? :)

Feel free to post it, as long as I get some recognition. :p

[Talon]

Oh no, it's all yours. Feel free to use any and all of my ideas and/or writeups. I just want to see someone put it in there!

[MarkusDark]

I am hoping to submit a list by next weekend. My only downside - I don't have the spacer's toolkit. Hope I don't simply remake existing items and waste Ben's time... :)

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
I am hoping to submit a list by next weekend. My only downside - I don't have the spacer's toolkit. Hope I don't simply remake existing items and waste Ben's time... :)

That shouldn't really be a problem: after all, he should be able to quickly recognize an item from the Toolkit and let you know.

[DoItHTH]

How about using Desolidification with Usable by Others, Only to pass through force walls?

[Farkling]

um...I read this discussion but had no useful observations until this point. I have a question about passing through walls.

Isn't that what Tunnelling is for?
Correct me if I am wrong, but Force Walls only break when they take BODY damage in excess of their defense? I think I'm reading the rules correctly...

Aren't we supposed to refrain from building powers that mimic other powers? Teleportation is fine for a Star Trek world, but I preferred Babylon 5 and Firefly (yea, even the original Battlestar Galacticas...). Besides, a teleport has to mess around with extra mass and the *poof* special effect when players actually look up the powers (they will, they always do). Shouldn't one person be able to provide access, and carry supplies in and out?

SO....how's this look? (Assuming the 4 PD wall)

1" Tunnelling (+5) through DEF 4 (+9). Invisible Power Effects (+1/2), , Can fill Tunnel in (+10), 16 charges, can only be used on Force Walls (-1/2), OIF - Control Baton (-1/2).

So, that's 36 Active and 18 Real, and leaves room for the active gadgeteer to tinker it into a force field key. The invisible power effects is to "cover up" the tunneled point of the shelter wall. The user can also keep the portal open for multiple entries...instead of charges itt could have an internal END battery, or even be 0 END cost so it ALWAYS works when used. Could even add extra time to simulate opening the hole. The 0 END version is 48 active and 19 real.

This could be tuned to your heart's content. Including a supervisor wand versus "personal use" access bracelets.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Farkling
um...I read this discussion but had no useful observations until this point. I have a question about passing through walls.

Isn't that what Tunnelling is for?


Not precisely: Tunneling is for going through objects, but so is Desolidification (in part), and Teleport certainly qualifies for ignoring the intervening space which can include the Force Wall.

But, yes, as long as the GM accepts that it doesn't break the Force Wall, this works perfectly well as far as I know.

[Chris Goodwin]

Why not either Force Wall, Only Vs. Weather, or Force Wall, Not Vs. Guys With Passthrough Keys?

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by archer
Why not either Force Wall, Only Vs. Weather, or Force Wall, Not Vs. Guys With Passthrough Keys?

Because a Limitation will not make the Force Wall transparent: if it's Only Vs. Weather, someone walking through it will break it. Likewise to guys with Passthrough Keys. As supporting evidence, I point to the Transparent Advantage, rather a large Advantage to allow some things through.

Of course, this is open to interpretation. If it were allowed in a game, I would not argue about it, but it might not be.

[Chris Goodwin]

Try this then. Force Wall with either a Limited Advantage or Naked Advantage: Transparent, Not Vs. Weather, or Transparent, Only Vs. Guys With Passthrough Keys.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by GamePhil
But, yes, as long as the GM accepts that it doesn't break the Force Wall, this works perfectly well as far as I know.

This was about Tunneling, and it officially doesn't work: Tunneling does not allow you to penetrate the Force Wall, Mr. Long said so, and his word is LAW!

Ok, not really, but that's the official stance.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by archer
Try this then. Force Wall with either a Limited Advantage or Naked Advantage: Transparent, Not Vs. Weather, or Transparent, Only Vs. Guys With Passthrough Keys.

heh heh. This is getting pretty far off the map, now. I honestly have no problem with your last try, I'm just not sure it works "officially". If someone came to me with it, I'd probably allow it. It's just not enough to worry about.

I like Mono's computer, though, myself.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by GamePhil
heh heh. This is getting pretty far off the map, now. I honestly have no problem with your last try, I'm just not sure it works "officially". If someone came to me with it, I'd probably allow it. It's just not enough to worry about.



100% official. Look at FREd pp. 157 and 180. You'll probably want to use a Naked Advantage if you're using HeroDesigner, as Dan Simon refuses to add the Limited Advantage functionality.

But you get a Force Wall that is either transparent to everything but weather, or transparent to nothing but guys with the keys. Which sounds like what the original poster was asking for. :)

[Talon]

Originally posted by archer
Try this then. Force Wall with either a Limited Advantage or Naked Advantage: Transparent, Not Vs. Weather, or Transparent, Only Vs. Guys With Passthrough Keys.

While the latter is technically legal, it seems close to EB AOE, only vs. villains; an advantage disguised as a limitation. I'm not sure I'd allow it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
While the latter is technically legal, it seems close to EB AOE, only vs. villains; an advantage disguised as a limitation. I'm not sure I'd allow it.

If it was for a character's primary or secondary defense power, or for someone's Fortress of Solitude, I'm not sure I would either, but c'mon! It's a glorified umbrella. :) With 3 PD, 3 ED, I don't see too many possibilities for abuse.

But... now that I look at it, the Transparent Advantage is used for Force Walls that have 0 in either PD or ED. If I were GM, I'd probably let him go with Force Wall, Only Vs. Weather, or Force Wall, Not Vs. Guys With Passkey, with the understanding that that particular construct is only allowed with the weather dome and not for general usage.

[dbsousa]

Force Wall allows you to use a half phase action to alter the shape or size. As a special effect, I would allow the person with a key to take a half phase to open a door...

[Farkling]

Sorry about the Tunnelling then. I was going by the book. Now I shall peruse the appropriate listings in the FAQ.

<sigh> Somebody always has another obscure rule to trump the best laid powers.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Farkling
Sorry about the Tunnelling then. I was going by the book. Now I shall peruse the appropriate listings in the FAQ.


Not even sure it's in the FAQ. It's Mr. Long's answer on the other forum. I just happened to notice it.

Tunneling still seems reasonable to me, if it makes you feel any better :)

[Farkling]

Thank you Phil it does. Perhaps the shelter can be built with a limitation on the Force Wall... "can be tunnelled through", that should endure the ruling from Steve also... :)

[Farkling]

I'm back. And I have an observation for the origianl questioner that is influnenced by my Force Wall and Tunnelling discussion...

Buy a small AoE Entangle that can only form barriers. Give it one BODY, and you can even make it Susceptible to something. The rules on Entangle state that an Entangle that is used to buid barriers literally "surrounds" the chosen area, and does not encompass the people inside. A linked Change Environment can be added to "only cover the internal area" and the Entangle has one recoverable charge. The charge recovers when you collapse the barrier. The Change Enviro field could be sold as a seperate attachment. :)

2d6 Entangle (20), DEF 4 (+2 DEF = +10), Blocks Normal SIght (+5), AoE (+1) (covers 4 Hexes), 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), No Range (-1/2), Has 1 BODY (-1/2), Only Forms Barriers (-1).
Active 70 pts, Real 16 pts.

Then the Tunnel keys work as advertised.

1" Tunnelling (+5) through DEF 4 (+9). Invisible Power Effects (+1/2), , Can fill Tunnel in (+10), 16 charges, can only be used on EnviroShelters (-1), OIF - Control Baton (-1/2).
Active 24 pts, Real 8 pts.

[Farkling]

I forgot to say...

Anyone have troubles with this construct?? :)