Varying Initiative

[slaughterj]

I know this has come up before, but this just started to bother me again recently :)

In Hero, Initiative = Dexterity (+ Lightning Reflexes).

This makes for a very static combat organization, little surprises in ordering, etc., though it does make things easier by not having to make another dice roll, keep track of an additional #, etc.

I've seen some suggestions before, but don't recall seeing the one I thought to post here:

Make Initiative = Dexterity + 3D6

Everyone's used to rolling 3D6 (thus easy), rolls will result in an average (thus higher DEXs *usually* will be higher, unlike d20, where people can be all over the place), and only roll once at the start of combat (to minimize dice rolling and complexity), and the 3D6 won't provide such a range to add to Initiative so as to generate weird results (i.e., the 33 DEX speedster will always beat out the 18 DEX brick).

Thoughts?

[Killer Shrike]

You might want to check out the optional rule called (IIRC) Hustle, or maybe Hurry. Whatever it's called, it allows a character to take a penalty to thier OCV to up thier DEX for purposes of going first.

Also keep in mind that initiative is static bcs a character pays hard points for it. However, if you really want to randomize it, do opposed Dex rolls instead in a given phase. Person that failed it the most must announce thier action 1st, down to the person who made it by the most. Then resolve fastest to slowest. Thus faster characters get to "trumph" slower characters, based entirely off of thier characteristics roll. Much more random but still gives higher DEX characters the edge.

The downside to adding randomization to Initiative is that it slows down combat extensively......

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the rub lies in only rolling once for the combat vs. the goal of eliminating static combat order. If you don't want lots of extra rolling, you have to set it for the whole combat, as you say. But if you're going to do that, then to me, you might as well just leave it based on DEX(+LR).

It can also mess with other mechanics in the system (like things that happen "on your DEX" in a given Phase).

I find that the best way to achieve variance in the order in which actions are taken is to emphasize the drawbacks of having already acted. This encourages people to save their action when they have nothing pressing to do, and results in more variation in when characters choose to do things.

[slaughterj]

Yeah, I'm familiar with Hurry, didn't seem enough of variation to me.

As for Dex checks, sounds good, but I just want something to start off combat with (probably can do it with Dex checks), but like d20, the results would be highly varying, because the major # would be the die roll, not the ability score.

[Killer Shrike]

As Derek says, one of the primary benefits of having a high DEX is being able to hold an action and react to opponent/wait for an opportune moment.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by slaughterj
Yeah, I'm familiar with Hurry, didn't seem enough of variation to me.

As for Dex checks, sounds good, but I just want something to start off combat with (probably can do it with Dex checks), but like d20, the results would be highly varying, because the major # would be the die roll, not the ability score. But thats really shafting characters that have dumped a lot of points into DEX by making thier reflex speed immaterial compared to random chance.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
I think the rub lies in only rolling once for the combat vs. the goal of eliminating static combat order. If you don't want lots of extra rolling, you have to set it for the whole combat, as you say. But if you're going to do that, then to me, you might as well just leave it based on DEX(+LR).

It can also mess with other mechanics in the system (like things that happen "on your DEX" in a given Phase).

I find that the best way to achieve variance in the order in which actions are taken is to emphasize the drawbacks of having already acted. This encourages people to save their action when they have nothing pressing to do, and results in more variation in when characters choose to do things.

[Side note, this is more for discussion rather than me to act on it, I tend not to change rules unless they need it terribly, e.g. Damage Shield.]

Giving a reason to hold is good, and I've found blocking to be effective for lower-speed mooks, e.g., PC cuts down 1 soldier, so the next 2 know he's good, PC goes to swing again but one elects to block! Effectively reducing the PC's DEX below the mooks, each then gets to swing back now :)

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
But thats really shafting characters that have dumped a lot of points into DEX by making thier reflex speed immaterial compared to random chance.

Uh, not sure what you mean here.
1. The Dex roll idea would shaft them more than my suggestion, just like d20 shafts them more. E.g., DEX 20 vs. DEX 10, under my method, DEX 20 still almost always goes 1st, while in a DEX check situation, each rolls 3D6 and compares to 13- and 11- respectively, resulting in usually the DEX 20 going first, but much more frequently than my method, the DEX 10 would go first.
2. Nobody's shafted by the points they've spent in DEX with any alternative Initiative method suggested thus far, because DEX is way undercosted to begin with.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by slaughterj
Uh, not sure what you mean here.
1. The Dex roll idea would shaft them more than my suggestion, just like d20 shafts them more. E.g., DEX 20 vs. DEX 10, under my method, DEX 20 still almost always goes 1st, while in a DEX check situation, each rolls 3D6 and compares to 13- and 11- respectively, resulting in usually the DEX 20 going first, but much more frequently than my method, the DEX 10 would go first.
Sorry, misunderstood your intent.

As far as 13- vs 11- however, because of the variance of the bellcurve at the middle, and the comparison effect for opposed rolls, the 13- still has a significant advantage over the 11-. The curve does flatten at the top however; if 2 characters had 17- and 15- respectively, the percentile margin of difference is much smaller; however the comparison still occurs and still (of course) favors the higher value, 17- in this case.


Originally posted by slaughterj
2. Nobody's shafted by the points they've spent in DEX with any alternative Initiative method suggested thus far, because DEX is way undercosted to begin with.

Not going to get into that argument ;)

[Arthur]

I've done GURPS that way for years. Every turn, I have players roll 1d, add DEX, then add +1 for Combat Reflexes. Combat order then counts down. New roll every turn. This could be adapted trivially. The higher DEX range in Hero would call for a 2d or 3d roll, as suggested already.

It really doesn't slow things down much. In fact, the increased level of player interaction more than makes up for it, IME. Instead of passively waiting for their DEX order to come up, players roll every Phase and have to pay attention to the countdown.

[Alibear]

I don't see the need to randomise it.

In my experience with, admittedly the rather sterile enviroment, of the Dojo faster people always go first. This is not random. Some people are ALWAYS faster than me and I know people that are always slower than me, nothing random there.