Martial Art: The Pathfinders Way

[clsage]

My skill levels in building martial arts styles are rather low (in other words,
I've never built my own style before....) so I thought I'd ask those assembled
here for input:

I'm attempting to come up with a martial arts style for use by a "ranger-esque"
type of character. The primary weapons for close combat in this style would be
either a staff (a tool with non-combat uses as well) or a short club. What I
currently have (which I admit was built by cut and pasting in HDv3 from some
other characters) is this:

The Pathfinders Way

Unarmed
Cost Maneuver
4 1) Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4 2) Reversal: var Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, 25 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs
4 3) Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 25 STR to Shove
3 4) Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 3d6 Strike, Target Falls
4 5) Fast Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, 4d6 Strike
4 6) Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 4d6 Strike
4 7) Nerve Strike: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2d6 NND

Armed
Cost Maneuver
4 1) Martial Block (Parry): 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4 2) Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort
4 3) Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike
4 4) Nerve Strike: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2d6 NND
5 5) Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon +4 DC Strike
2 6) Weapon Element: Clubs, Staffs

50 Total Martial Arts Cost

Cost Name
3 Acrobatics 11-
3 Breakfall 11-

6 Total Skills Cost

Total Costs: 56

That seems pretty expensive to me. Have I mis-figured something ?
Suggestions ?

Thanks.

-Carl-

[Markdoc]

Well, you don't need to buy both armed and unarmed styles - you buy one style and then add the weapon elements.

For example, if you buy the first package:
4 1) Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
4 2) Reversal: var Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, 25 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs
4 3) Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 25 STR to Shove
3 4) Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 3d6 Strike, Target Falls
4 5) Fast Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, 4d6 Strike
4 6) Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 4d6 Strike
4 7) Nerve Strike: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2d6 NND

that's your unarmed package, and then you simply add 2 points to be able to use it with clubs and staves as well. If you want to include Dodge and Offensive Strike as well (which are in the armed but not unarmed) then you can just add them to the package. You don't buy the same maneuver twice.

That saves you a bunch of points, but the package as a whole is still pretty damn expensive - especilly for a heroic game. That's because you have nearly every possible maneuver in there. I'd be inclined to only put in the basic package the martial arts skills that every practitioner of the style has - and then list the rest as optional maneuvers, which can be added as the player develops his style.

For staff fighting, that'd be (for me) Block, Legsweep and Martial strike, with (maybe) Dodge for a cost of 11-15 points - call it 21 points total with Acrobatics and Breakfall.

There is a game mechanics point to consider too - the current system for martial arts was designed to balance at around 4-5 maneuvers. It's not very flexible and outside that range it's either very cheap or too expensive. That's a big deal at Heroic level where even 30 points is a major investment. Heroic level players are generally not going to be interested in martial arts with lots of maneuvers: it's simply too inefficient: a player with a martial arts character pretty much by definition wants to be good in combat and they'll soon get tired of getting their tail handed to them by vanilla fighters, who were smart enough to buy CSLs and CHA instead.

If this bugs you (it bugged me :D) I have a different system based on the concept of using multipowers to model the current martial arts maneuvers. I designed it specifically with heroic level games in mind, though it scales better for superheroic games than the current system.

It's here:
http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

cheers, Mark

[clsage]

Thanks....I had run up the description I had posted without really re-reading
the MA section of the rules. I'd thought that I might be 'over-buying' when
I used the same maneuver more than once. I really do need to spend some
quality time with my copy of the UMA. :o

-Carl-

[mayapuppies]

If this bugs you (it bugged me :D) I have a different system based on the concept of using multipowers to model the current martial arts maneuvers. I designed it specifically with heroic level games in mind, though it scales better for superheroic games than the current system.

It's here:
http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

cheers, Mark
Do you happen to have an HDV3 Prefab written up for this? I've been wanting to convert my players over to this kind of system for a while and would love a headstart.

[Markdoc]

Do you happen to have an HDV3 Prefab written up for this? I've been wanting to convert my players over to this kind of system for a while and would love a headstart.

No, but that might change in the near future: I don't own HD and I've been meaning to buy it and get rolling with all my characters n' stuff. Next month (since I go on sabbatical) might be a good time to start that.

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Please put me on the mailing list for when/if you do!

[Markdoc]

Please put me on the mailing list for when/if you do!

Wilco!

cheers, Mark

[CourtFool]

One of the benefits of Markdoc’s approach is that you can give Martial Artist more options beyond Block, Dodge, Strike and Throw. I also love using Advantages on attacks like Area of Effect and Autofire.

One thing I do not see, Markdoc; how much does 'opponent falls' cost?

[phookz]

If this bugs you (it bugged me :D) I have a different system based on the concept of using multipowers to model the current martial arts maneuvers. I designed it specifically with heroic level games in mind, though it scales better for superheroic games than the current system.

It's here:
http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

cheers, Mark


Cool stuff you got there, repped.:thumbup:

[Markdoc]

One thing I do not see, Markdoc; how much does 'opponent falls' cost?

It doesn't cost anything: the maneuvers where it is built-in are built as "grabs", since throwing a grabbed opponent is a free component - and the opponent automatically ends prone. So since "legsweep" (for example) works mechanically the same as "grab and throw to the ground + 2d6 STR for damage" - that's how I have costed it.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

One of the benefits of Markdoc’s approach is that you can give Martial Artist more options beyond Block, Dodge, Strike and Throw. I also love using Advantages on attacks like Area of Effect and Autofire.

That's why i started doing it, actually, because I enjoy wild martial arts action, which is rather hard to do with the standard rules.

In books like Masters of the Dragon, they have a number of NPCs with both multipower martial arts and "conventional" martial arts. Looking at characters like Nightwind, you'd have to wonder why he'd ever use his "conventional" martial arts: the Yengtao martial arts multipower slots are basically superior in every way (not surprising, given their cost :D). As far as I can tell, they are simply there for flavour. That's fair enough, I suppose for an NPC, but most players would be loathe to spend 20-30 points purely for flavour before they even got to skills.

cheers, Mark

[Enforcer84]

In Watchers of The Dragon (only to show off my amazing memory skills), Nightwind has all his offensive moves in the Multipower, his Martial Arts consisted of Block, Dodge, and Throw maneuvers (throw being difficult to model with powers)

[Markdoc]

In Watchers of The Dragon (only to show off my amazing memory skills), Nightwind has all his offensive moves in the Multipower, his Martial Arts consisted of Block, Dodge, and Throw maneuvers (throw being difficult to model with powers)

heh: if he wants to put someone down, the "Catapulting blow of Loc Sun" - or whatever it's called - is a far better bet. My own feeling is that SteveL simply decided that he couldn't have a master martial artists with no martial arts maneuvers :D

cheers, Mark