6th Ed Champions Universe

[Greeter]

Greetings All,

Will the Champions Universe simply be updated to the new rules of 6th Ed, or will there be a new Champions Universe (such as the dramatic change from 4th to 5th Ed)?

[Steve Long]

We plan to publish a new Champions Universe for 6E. Changes/updates to the overall setting are primarily going to depend on reflecting the Champions Online MMO take on the setting, since Cryptic Studios now owns the Champions IP -- but of course, since an MMO can only cover so much ground, that leaves plenty of territory where we'll be able to do whatever we want. ;)

[dsatow]

Follow up question

A while back you developed a timeline for the products for 5th Ed, going from Atlantean Age (or earlier) to Star Hero. Are you still going to adhere to that product timeline?

[Steve Long]

Yes, unless I see a reason not to.

[Hermit]

Another question. Is there a plan, as a Hero Plus adventure or otherwise, to have a Crisis style adventure so folks can play out changes in game if they wish?

[mvoncannon]

Thread Necromancy.....

That would be cool. Seriously.

[Steve Long]

No, there's no plan for anything like that at this time.

[Lord Liaden]

This is only my impression based on observation of information Cryptic Studios has released on their Champions Online website, and the post-Cryptic books published so far by Hero Games; but from that evidence I don't expect Cryptic to make more than minor changes to the established history of the Champions Universe. However, they look to be greatly elaborating existing elements of the setting that weren't developed before, and adding a bunch of new stuff. :)

[Steve Long]

To a large extent that is a fair assessment -- after all, why buy something just to tear it apart? There are certainly some changes; for example, in the 6E CU Shadow Destroyer shows up in 2001 and the "real" Dr. Destroyer is going to remain in hiding until Cryptic decides it's time for him to come out and play.

And believe me, that's not the only plot they have going on behind the scenes. They seem to be doing an excellent job of "metaplotting" the MMO, coming up with intriguing backstories to explain what's going on and eventually lead to expansions and updates and such. As luck would have it, some of them dovetail nicely with books we were already considering doing. :sneaky:

[Lord Liaden]

To a large extent that is a fair assessment -- after all, why buy something just to tear it apart? There are certainly some changes; for example, in the 6E CU Shadow Destroyer shows up in 2001 and the "real" Dr. Destroyer is going to remain in hiding until Cryptic decides it's time for him to come out and play.

Oooh... that's actually pretty intriguing. So Shadow Destroyer isn't just some "johnny-come-lately," but has been THE Doctor Destroyer of the new millennium. All the preparations and improvements Albert Zerstoiten has been making while he was presumed dead will probably come down on SD's head in a big way when he announces his return. Of course PC heroes (PnP and MMO) are likely to get caught in between them... :eg:

[bubba smith]

sounds good

[Lord Liaden]

And believe me, that's not the only plot they have going on behind the scenes. They seem to be doing an excellent job of "metaplotting" the MMO, coming up with intriguing backstories to explain what's going on and eventually lead to expansions and updates and such. As luck would have it, some of them dovetail nicely with books we were already considering doing. :sneaky:

Do you happen to know if the overarcing plot from DEMON: Servants Of Darkness is still on the itinerary? I'm not asking how Cryptic plans to run it or if the details have been changed, just whether they're going to put it in the MMO.

[Steve Long]

Sorry, but I'm not at liberty to reveal any details (and heck, I don't necessarily know any). I only mentioned the Shadow Destroyer thing because I'd think Cryptic's intent is pretty obvious from the contents of BotD.

[CorpCommander]

Will the new books be 6th edition compatible? How is that being handled? I'm sure there are people like me who don't want to invest in something that will be obsolete in 12 months time.

[Sketchpad]

I was thinking about CO and its relation to Champions PnP ... with some of the larger storylines in the MMORPG, are there plans to make these into adventures for Champions PnP? Or at the very least, some PDFs?

[bubba smith]

thats a good question

[ghost-angel]

There are related/cross plots in Book Of The Destroyer and Monster Island already.

I'm going to say, yes.

[archermoo]

Will the new books be 6th edition compatible? How is that being handled? I'm sure there are people like me who don't want to invest in something that will be obsolete in 12 months time.

My understanding is that most of the books the Hero is putting out between now and when 6th edition comes out are less rules intense books and while they are being written for 5th edition, should also be usable with 6th. And keep in mind that just because 6th edition comes out that doesn't mean that all of the 5th edition books are suddenly obsolete. While Hero is certainly planning on re-releasing 6th edition version of existing 5th edition books not all of the 5th edition books will be re-released. Nor will all of the 6th edition books they release be re-released 5th edition books.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, I have books going back to the earliest days of Champions, long superceded by newer publications, but I don't consider them "obsolete." I still use many elements from them in my own campaigns. I like being able to mix and match elements of the setting from past and present to get the kind of world I want to play in. Despite differences in editions of the game they're all still fundamentally HERO, so making them work together is much easier than adapting something from another game.

[CorpCommander]

...And keep in mind that just because 6th edition comes out that doesn't mean that all of the 5th edition books are suddenly obsolete...

That was true for Champions to 5th edition, but, 5th to 6th edition is a remarkable departure with several fundamental changes. No "build" will survive. Basic concepts are changing or even going away. Some I could care less about (like COM) - others are much more disruptive.

Book of the Machine sounds like it will have a lot of character and equipment builds in it. I would assume they would target designs for 6th and give stats in an appendix for 5th. For the first color book I would expect that especially if it is a harbinger of what is to come. I would want it to be 6th edition centric because I think the changes proposed are fantastic and I want the company to show equal enthusiasm. Even though 6th edition is not out yet it will be. Let's face it: Steve Long is a Remorseless Writing Robot.

From what I can tell, of the changes as discussed, all of the books of vehicles, characters, powers and equipment are all essentially in need of reworking by me, the consumer, to use them in the new edition. To me that means obsolete. Maybe you have a different definition - which is fine. If I have to do work to get them to be useful I have no other word than obsolete to describe them.

I can make anything in those older books just from a description (ah the power of the Hero System.) I have them because they save time. Since I intend on going to 6th edition I am not going to buy new books that won't help me save time. For me their value is pretty simple and very profound: I have very limited time which means my free time is very valuable. If I have to invest 3+ hours of time to convert the data to 6th edition then that is a big loss to me.

[ghost-angel]

That was true for Champions to 5th edition, but, 5th to 6th edition is a remarkable departure with several fundamental changes. No "build" will survive. Basic concepts are changing or even going away. Some I could care less about (like COM) - others are much more disruptive.

Nothing is set in stone and you cannot take anything you read in the 6E forums as "Fact" or "Actual Changes"

To do so is a grievous mistake of the tallest order. Steve hasn't even started writing the new edition yet.

So no, the Book Of The Machine is not written for 6 with stats for 5 in the back or anything even remotely close. It's written with the 5th Revised Rules FOR the 5th Revised Rules.


I swear, where people come up with some of this stuff boggles me.

[Lord Liaden]

Book of the Machine sounds like it will have a lot of character and equipment builds in it. I would assume they would target designs for 6th and give stats in an appendix for 5th. For the first color book I would expect that especially if it is a harbinger of what is to come. I would want it to be 6th edition centric because I think the changes proposed are fantastic and I want the company to show equal enthusiasm. Even though 6th edition is not out yet it will be. Let's face it: Steve Long is a Remorseless Writing Robot.

That he may be, but he's also made it clear that BOTM will be statted for Fifth Edition, not Sixth. Based on his comments, I'm not sure Steve has even started reading the 6E feedback threads. He definitely hasn't started writing the new rules, though.

[CorpCommander]

I swear, where people come up with some of this stuff boggles me.

I'm voicing a concern - seriously, what bad manners. This is an open forum. Too bad you don't like what I have to say. So take your boggled mind and march off.

I would bet many of those changes discussed will become reality. The fact is, even with all the discussion mayhem, most of them make sense.

2nd - Steve's been at this for a year now. 6th edition is not years away - the man is a writing machine. Every time he's had one of these discussions it was not long after that a new book was out.

My concern is with the new edition is coming a new direction and I don't want to invest in something that isn't going to support it. That is not unreasonable. I found your comment rude and unjustified. :mad:

[Teflon Billy]

I'm voicing a concern - seriously, what bad manners. This is an open forum. Too bad you don't like what I have to say. So take your boggled mind and march off.

I would bet many of those changes discussed will become reality. The fact is, even with all the discussion mayhem, most of them make sense.

2nd - Steve's been at this for a year now. 6th edition is not years away - the man is a writing machine. Every time he's had one of these discussions it was not long after that a new book was out.

My concern is with the new edition is coming a new direction and I don't want to invest in something that isn't going to support it. That is not unreasonable. I found your comment rude and unjustified. :mad:Well, your post was a bit sweeping and how you said it was not that you were airing a concern but were speaking from accepted facts.

G-A was correct, 6th hasn't been written, nothing has been publicly made open as to what is changing, and you were flat out wrong in your description on what Book of the Machine was going to contain.

TB

[ghost-angel]

I'm voicing a concern - seriously, what bad manners. This is an open forum. Too bad you don't like what I have to say. So take your boggled mind and march off.

I would bet many of those changes discussed will become reality. The fact is, even with all the discussion mayhem, most of them make sense.

2nd - Steve's been at this for a year now. 6th edition is not years away - the man is a writing machine. Every time he's had one of these discussions it was not long after that a new book was out.

My concern is with the new edition is coming a new direction and I don't want to invest in something that isn't going to support it. That is not unreasonable. I found your comment rude and unjustified. :mad:

Teflon Billy covered the situation pretty clearly - your entire post presented as fact (not opinion or concern) a number of simply wrong things.

Steve has said many times in many places that he will not start writing 6E until this spring. None of the books created to date have ever once mentioned using supposed 6E rules. He's made it abundantly clear that the 6E Forums are ideas, thoughts, suggestions and non-official.

You aren't the first, and likely won't be the last, person on these boards to assume something about 6E that's based completely on non-fact and conjecture. It should be avoided, it just causes problems and confusion.

[Peregrine]

As to changes in the 5e CU to 6e, there are a couple that I would anticipate, on the assumption that the 6e CU wont be backdated from the real calendar:

1. The plot from DEMON. Either the date changes, or thwarting it is a major quest in the MMO
2. The end of Magic in 2020 and the beginning of Cyber Hero. It might be presumptuous for Cryptic to anticipate the MMO to be actively running in 11 years, but there's no good reason to set an expiration date on the game, either.

[Lord Liaden]

The background for Mind Slayer that Cryptic put on their website makes no mention of the destruction of PSI described in Champions Universe: News Of The World. Mind Slayer is still working for PSI, so I'm guessing they'll be in business at the start of the MMO. I for one am glad of this, as I consider a whole organization of malevolent mentalists to be too interesting a concept not to use. :cool:

Steve Long has already mentioned elswhere that in the MMO, the "real" Doctor Destroyer has not returned; Cryptic's "Shadow Destroyer" has been the Dr. D of the new millennium, having first appeared in 2001 in the new continuity.

[Lord Mhoram]

You aren't the first, and likely won't be the last, person on these boards to assume something about 6E that's based completely on non-fact and conjecture. It should be avoided, it just causes problems and confusion.

Well Steve has said in interviews (and / or podcasts) that he will kill figured characteristics, change movement to meters. So those are likely a done deal.

I am waiting for 6th to see exactly what changes are made. But those two are fairly certain.

[bubba smith]

The background for Mind Slayer that Cryptic put on their website makes no mention of the destruction of PSI described in Champions Universe: News Of The World. Mind Slayer is still working for PSI, so I'm guessing they'll be in business at the start of the MMO. I for one am glad of this, as I consider a whole organization of malevolent mentalists to be too interesting a concept not to use. :cool:

Steve Long has already mentioned elswhere that in the MMO, the "real" Doctor Destroyer has not returned; Cryptic's "Shadow Destroyer" has been the Dr. D of the new millennium, having first appeared in 2001 in the new continuity.
a copycat criminal, too bad mr long wants to keep champions and dark champions seperate but equal otherwise dark champions tas would have the perfect suspect the villian COPYCAT

[archermoo]

Well Steve has said in interviews (and / or podcasts) that he will kill figured characteristics, change movement to meters. So those are likely a done deal.

I am waiting for 6th to see exactly what changes are made. But those two are fairly certain.

Yup. It is a good bet (though not certain) that anything Steve presented as "I will be doing this unless convinced otherwise" will be done. There is always the chance that he will be convinced otherwise, but the ones he labeled as such are ones that he has done a lot of thinking about already.

As to 6th edition, it should be released at GenCon this year. No books released before the 6th edition rules are released will be written using the 6e rules. All of the ones after will be. Pretty straightforward.

[Volcilord]

The early 1980's Champions encouraged saving power points by buying STR and CON instead of the equivalent figured characteristics, but fifth edition rules favors style in The Champions Universe over power point use efficiency. Tuala Morn spell cost removes the need for power point efficiency to develop an effective magic system. A sixth edition champions universe needs to encourage the use of elemental control and other game elements that add flavor to the game like Tuala Morn magic, without draining starting characters of too many power points to do so.

[The Main Man]

a copycat criminal, too bad mr long wants to keep champions and dark champions seperate but equal otherwise dark champions tas would have the perfect suspect the villian COPYCAT

Not to get too off-topic, but I think that DC:TAS makes for the perfect bridge between Champions and Dark Champions.Similarly (and even further off-topic), I think that it would be interesting to see rules for seamlessly bridging the gap between Heroic and Superheroic campaigns.

[lemming]

And heck, those worried about sweeping changes, I don't see anything really that sweeping more than what went on before.

[Sean Waters]

I'm all for sweeping changes: after all you would not want dusty changes.