Mental Powers, Senses, and Presence Attacks [Archive]

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Chris Goodwin

Mar 17th, '08, 10:42 AM

First, I'm starting this thread with Steve Long's express permission. I have posted these elsewhere, but I'm pulling them together here (and removing them from the other threads) in order to have discussion in one place.

Edited 4/29/08: A lot of the things in this posting are superseded by later discussion. Still, I'm leaving it here for historical purposes and further discussion.

Edited 5/11/08, late: Following is the most current version of this, also found in (as I write this) my latest posting to the thread.

Skills:

Interaction Skills

Acting should be broken up into Performance and Deception. Performance is the ability to give a convincing performance on stage, and can be helped along with various PS's (PS: Actor, PS: Musician, PS: Guitarist, and the like). Deception is the ability to lie, straight up.

New Interaction Skills:

Command: This is the Skill used to get someone to do something you tell them to do, just because you have told them to do it. Common among, and actually taught to, police and military officers; also common among parents.

Interview: This is the Skill used to get information out of a willing target (as opposed to Interrogation, which is used to get information out of an unwilling target, and Conversation, which is used to get information out of an unknowing target).

Intimidation: This is the ability to make a threat and convince someone that you intend to carry it out. Whether you actually intend to or not is irrelevant (and it can be sad when you actually intend to carry it out but fail your roll...)

Leadership: This is the ability to convince someone that their goals align with yours, and then to work to achieve those goals.

Enhanced Senses

DETECT TABLE

COST ITEM
3 A single thing (an uncommon object or phenomenon, one that
has little or no effect on combat). Examples: the direction one is
currently facing, the current time, the range to nearby objects,
Necromantic Magic, Denebians, or Gold

5 A class of things (a common object or phenomena, or any object
or phenomenon that significantly affects combat). Examples: Magic,
Aliens, Metals, or Minds

10 A large class of things (very common or abstract objects or
phenomena). Examples: Life Energy, Physical Objects, or Enemies

+5 Each extra thing or class of things (requires the GM's permission)

var +1 to PER Roll with Detect for each +1 Character Point

Transmit:

2 A Single Sense (Target Must Have Same Sense)

5 A Single Sense Group (Target Must Have Sense In Group)

+5 Can Transmit To Target Without Same Sense

Sense:

2 Turns Detect into a Sense (doesn't require a Half-Phase Action;
can be set off by contact at any time)

Range of senses: This is GM determined based on common sense, dramatic sense, and special effects. The rule of thumb is 1-10 kilometers, depending on a variety of factors, ultimately up to the GM.

Needle In A Haystack: The rules given in 5e/r under Mind Scan for sensing a target among a large number are hereby generalized for sensing a single target in a crowd. PER penalties are equal to the ECV penalties given there. In other words: it's -2 to pick out a single target in a crowd of 10, and an additional -2 per x10 individuals in the crowd.

Important Note: Simulated Senses apply the strengths and weaknesses of the Sense Group to the individual Senses. So, our Senses are bought Simulated Sense: Mental Sense Group, which provides Range but nothing else. In the case of the Mental Sense Group, the Range is Line Of Sight (LOS). It is necessary for a character to either buy one Mental Sense with Range and the Line Of Sight and No Range Modifier Adders, at +10 points each, or to buy these as naked Sense Modifiers. The sample Mental Powers builds below assume this has already been done, and therefore don't include these Adders.

Selectivity of Targets: Senses may be purchased as either Selective or Nonselective, per the Area Of Effect Modifiers. As Senses normally affect an area and aren't normally applied at range, they don't require an Attack Roll to target the area, but it is necessary to make an Attack Roll against the targets within it. Nonselective is a -1/4 Limitation, while Selective is a +5 point Adder; these both work exactly as described under Area Of Effect. (Thanks to Mini-Nukette for this suggestion.)

Adders:

Clairsentience:

Clairsentience is a straight adder to the Sense, allowing you to put your sensory point somewhere outside of you.

You can define the Sense Group the Clairsentience senses in, as well as optionally defining how the information gets to you (typically, the latter is as a Mental Sense, but others are possible; Radio can be used to represent listening devices or bugs).

Clairsentience has a range of 10 kilometers (unless the GM decides otherwise), and can be bought up from there with MegaScale.

The GM might decide that all Powers (including Senses) with the Psionics special effect have a planetary range, and can affect anyone the character can see with no Range Modifier, or through Mind Scan anywhere the mentalist can sense.

If a Sense (including Clairsentience Senses) works with another Power based on distance or range, whether by mechanics (e.g. Linked) or simply by being defined as working together, the Sense's maximum range is the same as the other Power. So, if you had Clairsentience to tell you whether a spot was safe to Teleport to, the Clairsentience is limited to the distance of your Teleport Power, whether that's 10 meters or MegaScaled to 100 kilometers. There's no Advantage or Limitation associated with this.

A Clairsentience point can be "set" to follow a moving target, in which case it follows that target at a fixed distance, regardless of how fast the target goes, without any effort required from the user. The user can move it at up to 6" per Phase, following the 5e rules for this part.

To hit a specific spot with a Clairsentience point requires an OCV vs. DCV roll to hit the hex.

Characters who buy Indirect on an Attack Power can attack from their Clairsentience point, tracing LOS from that point to the target, and attack as if they were standing at the Clairsentience Point.

Clairsentience:

+5 Clairsentience for one Sense
+10 Clairsentience for one Sense Group

+5 Twice as many simultaneous Perception Points

+2 Mobile Perception Point, any speed, no control over movement of Perception Point
+5 Mobile Perception Point up to 6" per Phase, character has control over movement
+5 2x Speed

Lock-On: A Sense with Lock-On automatically maintains perception against a target, even if the target moves. If the Sense is built as Clairsentience, the Clairsentience must be built with Mobile Perception Point. If the target can break the lock by merely breaking Line of Sight, the cost is +5 points; for +10 points, the GM and player can define a method other than breaking LOS to break the lock (this is required for Senses that are N-Ray, or otherwise sense through solid objects that wouldn't break the lock if they break LOS).

Lock-On:

+5 Target can break lock by breaking LOS
+10 Requires other defined method to break lock

Tags: (These really deserve a better name.) Tags are either permanent or temporary "sensory spots". Primarily but not exclusively intended for Clairsentience. Based on Teleport fixed and floating locations, they have the same cost (for one Sense, 1 point for fixed, 5 for floating; for a Sense Group, 2 points for fixed, 10 for floating); to get more you can either buy them at their single cost or pay 5 points for 2x, and you can mix and match them for however works better for you (so you could buy 10 fixed for 10 points, and pay another 5 to double that to 20).

They function similarly to fixed and floating Teleport locations; with a temporary tag, it takes one Turn to "memorize" a new target. Permanent tags, of course, don't change. Permanent and Temporary simply refer to how long a tag is associated with a particular target.

Having a tag means you don't have to roll OCV vs. DCV to target a Clairsentience or Active Sense "paint" attempt, nor do you have to make a Perception roll to sense the target, as long as the target is within your sensory range.

You can tag a location, Vehicle, or character.

If a Sense with Tags is built with the Physical Manifestation Limitation, the Tags become physical objects that may be placed and stop working if destroyed. This represents the total amount of Tags a character can have; if one is destroyed, he can create another through some means.

Tags can be used to represent things like a permanent Mind Link with a loved one, a radio bug placed on a car, a crystal ball tuned to follow a particular hero, a character who can pluck out his own eyes and ears and leave them behind to see and listen, etc.

Through Time:

The Sense can be used to sense through time. It's up to the GM what kind of information can be gathered using this method. This is most commonly used with Clairsentience to represent a precognitive or retrocognitive ability, but can also be used as a Danger Sense to represent the ability to sense danger that might occur in the future.

+0 Past Only
+10 Future Only
+15 Future And Past

+3 One Segment
+5 One Phase

+5 Every two levels down the Time Chart

Limitations:

Single Target: A Sense bought either Selective or Nonselective can be bought to affect a single target only; the Limitation value for this is -1. The amount of targets can be doubled by reducing the Limitation value by Â¼ per doubling; there is no corresponding Advantage or Adder once the Limitation reaches -0, as at that point any number of targets can be Sensed. (The player may, if he wishes, define a maximum number of targets higher than 9, the value at which -0 would ordinarily be reached, for no cost.) With Selective, the user of the Power has control over which targets are affected; with Nonselective, it affects the closest targets by default (the player and GM may, if they wish, decide together on some other standard method for determining who is affected). Cost: -1 for one single target; -3/4 for 2 targets; -1/2 for 3-4 targets; -1/4 for 5-8 targets; and no Limitation for 9 or more targets.

Mental Defense Adds To EGO: This -1/2 Limitation was originally suggested for use with Mental Paralysis (i.e. Entangles built Based On ECV with Resisted By EGO and myriad other Modifiers). The target's Mental Defense adds to his Ego for purposes of resisting the Entangle. This Limitation may be applied to Mental Powers defined with Senses, and is strongly recommended for this purpose. Cost: -1/2.

Reduced Arc of Perception: 60 Degrees: -1/2 Limitation.

Requires A Skill Roll: Progressive: This is an additional modifier to the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation. The Power to which this Modifier is applied may not always be used at its full Active Points; instead, the amount of the Power that may be used is based on how successful the Skill Roll is.

Up to 4 Active Points of Power per point roll made by: -1/2
From 5-8 Active Points of Power per point roll made by: -1/4
9 or more Active Points of Power per point roll made by: -0

This assumes a successful roll including all penalties for Active Points used.

It should go without saying, but in case it doesn't: this maxes out at the amount of Active Points bought. In other words, a character can't gain more of a bonus than what he has bought by succeeding at his Skill Roll by a greater amount.

(Example: Guy with Images buys -5 in additional PER Roll penalties with Requires A Skill Roll and Progressive: 3 Active Points of Power per point. He pays (15 / 1.5) = 10 points for the additional penalties.)

Cost: -1/2 for up to 4 Active Points of Power per point the Skill Roll is made by; -1/4 for 5-8 Active Points per point the Skill Roll succeeds by; and -0 for 9 or more Active Points per point.

(The purpose for this Limitation being included in here is that it could easily be applicable to Resistance penalties bought by the user of a Mental Power; he could buy it with this Limitation to effectively provide additional penalties based on a Skill Roll.)

Sample Power Builds:

Telepathy: Detect Thoughts (5 Base Points), Active, Simulated Sense: Mental Sense Group. Adders: Discriminatory (+5), Targeting (Mental Powers And Senses Only, -1/2) (+3), Transmit To Targets Without Same Sense, One At A Time (+7), Selective (+5). Active Cost: 25. Limitations: Costs END, Only To Activate (-1/4); Single Target (-1). 11 Real Points.

Mind Link: Detect Thoughts (5 Base Points), Active, Simulated Sense: Mental Sense Group. Adders: Discriminatory (+5), Targeting (Mental Powers And Senses Only, -1/2) (+3), Transmit To Targets Without Same Sense, One At A Time (+7), Selective (+5). Active Cost: 25. Limitations: Single Target (-1); Communication Only (-1/2); Voluntary Targets Only (-1/2). 8 Real Points

Options:

Only To Those With Mind Link: Change Transmit To Targets Without Same Sense (+7) to Transmit (+2). Active Cost: 20; Real Cost: 6.
Increase Number of Targets: Reduce or remove Single Targets Limitation. 2 Targets: 9 Real Points; 4 Targets: 10 Real Points; 8 Targets: 11 Real Points; 9 or more targets, 12 Real Points.
Psychic Bond: Change to Detect Single Person's Thoughts (3 Base Points), plus one Tag (that person). 23 Active Points, 8 Real Points.

Mind Scan: Detect Minds (5 Base Points), Active, Simulated Sense: Mental Sense Group. Adders: Analyze (+5), Discriminatory (+5), Lock-On (+10), Targeting (+10). 35 Base Points. Advantages: MegaScale: Range, (10,000km) (+3/4). 61.25 Active Points. Limitations: Target Can User And Attack With Appropriate Powers (-1) 31 Real Points.

Note: The base range of a Sense here is assumed to be 10km; three levels of MegaScale will raise that to 10,000km.

Mind Control: Detect Thoughts (5 Base Points), Active, Simulated Sense: Mental Sense Group. Adders: Discriminatory (+5), Transmit To Targets Without Same Sense, One At A Time (+7). Active Cost: 17. Limitations: Discrete Targets: Single Target (-1); Communication Only (-1/2); Only For Sending Commands (-1). 5 Real Points. Plus Command Skill at +3 (9 Base Points). Advantages: Based On ECV (+1). 18 Active. Limitations: None. 18 Real Points. Total Active Cost: 35, Total Real Cost: 23.

Non-Sensory Mental Powers:

Using Interaction Skills As Mental Powers

First, decide what Skills you want to use. Command is the most common Skill used (to represent Mind Control), but others can be used as well. Buy the skill Based On ECV (a +1 Advantage).

The Skill is used directly, through the appropriate Transmit senses. (An unenhanced human ordinarily uses, for instance, Command through his Normal Hearing Transmit (Normal Speech) Sense; a mentalist would use it through his Telepathy.) Doing so provides no inherent bonus or penalty to the Skill Roll, though the mentalist could buy Skill Levels with this Special Effect.

Replacing Mental Illusions with Images

(Note: I'm not satisfied with this. I'm thinking that there needs to be a separate Mental Illusions Power, perhaps with its cost and structure based on Images.)

Images can be bought with the -1/2 Single Target Limitation. In this case, only a single target is affected by the Images. Using it this way means the user needs to target the Power using an OCV vs. DCV roll (or, optionally, and specifically for our purposes, an OECV vs. ODCV roll). When using it mentally, the target uses EGO Rolls rather than PER Rolls to "break out", and Mental Defense provides a bonus (or, perhaps, a penalty to the initial application of Images).

In order to harm a target with illusionary attacks, buy attack Powers with Invisible and BOECV Does BODY plus Requires Images At +5 Or Better Margin; in this case, the +5 refers to the margin of the Images bonus minus the amount by which the target makes his EGO roll. (In this case, Images is bought with bonuses rather than penalties, at the same cost.)

It is recommended to buy Images in this manner with Requires A Skill Roll: Mental Illusions, and to allow the Mental Illusions Willpower Skill to act as Complementary to the Images, for Â¼ less on the Limitation (which means that failing the RSR Roll means the target gets a bonus to see through the illusion). (Potentially: the user can buy additional Images penalties with RSR.)

To remove a target entirely from interaction with the real world, use the Command Skill, Based On ECV, and give the target two commands: Unquestioningly Accept This As Real, and Only Interact With This Mentally. (The user can, if he wishes, buy two Command Skills with Single Command Only (-2).)

Note that Images effectively includes a type of Transmission component by default; it is therefore not necessary to use any Sense to Transmit information about the illusion to the target.

Presence Attacks:

Since we're doing away with the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20, etc. mechanic, we're changing Presence Attacks as well. A Presence Attack is a straight PRE Roll vs. PRE Roll; the defender may use an EGO Roll, and the attacker may substitute an Interaction Skill if appropriate. The most commonly used Interaction skills with Presence Attacks are Command, Intimidation, Leadership, Oratory, and Persuasion.

General conversion for CHA+X to Skill/CHA roll success:

(This part is subject to change.)

CHA 0-2
CHA+10 3-5
CHA+20 6-8
CHA+30 9-11

+10 +3
+20 +6

These numbers represent the amount you need to make your Skill Roll by to achieve the desired effect.

Mental Powers As Interaction Skills / Using Them Through Senses

Under ordinary circumstances, Interaction Skills require some way to, well, interact with the target. This can be provided by any Sense with Transmit, as long as the target can receive the Transmission. Interaction Skills gain no particular bonus due to the method of Transmission being a Mental Sense.

The Ultimate Skill gives guidelines for comparing the use of Interaction Skills to Mental Powers, and there's a pretty straight across comparison. It also gives guidelines for maintaining the use of the skill over time. The Ultimate Mentalist also gives guidelines for using Mental Powers to beef up Interaction Skills; we're going to use those as well, substituting Skill Levels for Power.

When buying Interaction Skills as Mental Powers, they are bought based on EGO rather than PRE. Also, any use of them is reduced by the target's Mental Defense; -1 to the roll per point of Mental Defense.

A target with Mental Defense gains some protection against Mental Senses: -1 to others' PER Rolls per 3 points of Mental Defense.

At some point, we will have to reconcile The Ultimate Skill with The Ultimate Mentalist. There's a core here which they both approach but don't quite reach.

New Powers:

Penalize:

Penalize gives direct penalties to an opponent's Skill or Characteristic rolls. The penalty applies when the target is doing something to the user of the Power, or to an object to which the Power is applied. Penalize is Persistent and has no Endurance cost, no Range, and is Self Only; it never provides any defenses or applies in combat. Cost is as follows:

Cost Penalty
2 -1 to one Skill
-1 to one fairly narrowly defined function of one Characteristic Roll
-1 to Perception Rolls for one non-Targeting Sense

3 -1 to a narrowly defined group of Skills
-1 to a narrowly defined group of functions of one Characteristic Roll,
or -1 to two to three similar functions of multiple Characteristic
Rolls
-1 to Perception Rolls for one Targeting Sense
-1 to Perception Rolls for one non-Targeting Sense Group

5 -1 to group of similar Skills
-1 to a group of broadly defined functions of one Characteristic Roll
-1 to Perception Rolls for one Targeting Sense Group
-1 to Perception Rolls for two non-Targeting Sense Groups

8 -1 to all Skill Rolls
-1 to a Characteristic Roll for all non-Skill related functions
-1 to all Perception Rolls

10 -1 to all Skill, Characteristic, and Perception Rolls

Where applicable, the penalties from the Penalize Power apply to uses of the Power Skill. At the GM's option, Penalize may be similarly applied to Powers that take a Characteristic Roll or have a Skill Roll type mechanic associated with them by default, such as Missile Deflection. Penalize does not apply to Activation Rolls unless the GM specifies otherwise, though it does apply to Required Skill Rolls where Powers take that Limitation.

(I'm including this here as it is directly applicable to Mental Powers; a character can buy Penalize to apply to all, some, one, or none of his Mental Powers, separately or not as desired.)

Edited 5/12/08 am: Removed "spoilered" stuff.

dsatow

Mar 17th, '08, 01:23 PM

Enhanced Senses
What's the advantage of doing it this way, especially with the reduction in arcs and the ability to target? I just don't see a cost/benefit in this major change. For 95% of the people, senses work just fine as is. About the only complaint I ever see is because of a sense's special status, you can't make super sensing person easily.

Clairsentience
I kind of agree that clairsentience should be logically folded into the senses groups. What I don't know if the costs are quite right. Maybe instead of just using ranged and indirect, since sight is already "ranged", you might want to create an adder +10 single sense detached, +20 sense group detached.

Mental Powers As Interaction Skills / Using Them Through Senses
i don't know if I subscribe to this. It changes the basic concept of mental attacks especially in the role of comic books which is HERO's major audience. I think though a simpler mechanic of +1 per every 5 points above the minimum effect would give low levels of mental powers in heroic games use while not hurting too badly the higher level games.

EX: a mystic with 5d6 mind control says "These are not the boys you are looking for." He gets 18 pts which gives him +3 on his persuasion.

EX: Mind Mauler see thier dream date. On 15d6 mind control, MM says "You love me!". At 53 effect, that is +10 to MM's seduction. While MM is very seductive, the target refuses MM's advances. MM's comeliness is -10, MM should have just mind controlled the target.

Replacing Mental Illusions with Images
The only problem here is mental illusions ability to actually do related damage. Your example requires a mental illusionist to have an entangle for illusionary entangles, KA for illusionary killing attacks, Flashes for illusionary flashes. Soon, it would end up where all illusionists will have a VPP, not a place I'd personally like to go.

Presence Attacks:
While I like getting rid of COM, I not quite sure what you are getting at here. What's the benefit? I can see expanding skills that are social to have a better defined action reaction definition.

Side note: Personally, I'd like to see Martial Arts for Mental Powers (mentatics if you will). Each maneuver would be good for only one mental power(telepathy, mind control, etc.) but could be bought with Usable with adders like Martial Arts does with weapons. Extra Damage classes could be also done in a similar vein at +1d6 per 4DC with a note that dispelling/surpressing mental powers in this situation only has to surpress the base power. Thus if you have 2d6 telepathy with mentactics at +10d6, they'd only have to surpress the 2d6 telepathy to prevent you from using it. Sort of like draining strength.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 17th, '08, 01:42 PM

Enhanced Senses
What's the advantage of doing it this way, especially with the reduction in arcs and the ability to target? I just don't see a cost/benefit in this major change. For 95% of the people, senses work just fine as is. About the only complaint I ever see is because of a sense's special status, you can't make super sensing person easily.

I may have misread the rules on arcs. Primarily, it's to give some additional options, and to work with the "Mental Powers As Enhanced Senses" rules.

Clairsentience
I kind of agree that clairsentience should be logically folded into the senses groups. What I don't know if the costs are quite right. Maybe instead of just using ranged and indirect, since sight is already "ranged", you might want to create an adder +10 single sense detached, +20 sense group detached.

Agreed. I haven't worked this one up yet; that was basically an afterthought.

Mental Powers As Interaction Skills / Using Them Through Senses
i don't know if I subscribe to this. It changes the basic concept of mental attacks especially in the role of comic books which is HERO's major audience. I think though a simpler mechanic of +1 per every 5 points above the minimum effect would give low levels of mental powers in heroic games use while not hurting too badly the higher level games.

EX: a mystic with 5d6 mind control says "These are not the boys you are looking for." He gets 18 pts which gives him +3 on his persuasion.

EX: Mind Mauler see thier dream date. On 15d6 mind control, MM says "You love me!". At 53 effect, that is +10 to MM's seduction. While MM is very seductive, the target refuses MM's advances. MM's comeliness is -10, MM should have just mind controlled the target.

Presence Attacks:
While I like getting rid of COM, I not quite sure what you are getting at here. What's the benefit? I can see expanding skills that are social to have a better defined action reaction definition.

It's not intended to be a huge change; I'll have to go into more detail on how they work. The intent is to do away with the things that are based on CHA+10, CHA+20, etc. Essentially, a mentalist (or high-PRE character) should still be able to do the things he could do before.

Replacing Mental Illusions with Images
The only problem here is mental illusions ability to actually do related damage. Your example requires a mental illusionist to have an entangle for illusionary entangles, KA for illusionary killing attacks, Flashes for illusionary flashes. Soon, it would end up where all illusionists will have a VPP, not a place I'd personally like to go.

If Mental Illusions currently act as a VPP, then maybe the character should be charged accordingly. (I'm about characters paying for what they get and getting what they pay for.)

Vondy

Mar 17th, '08, 03:11 PM

Chris Goodwin

Mar 17th, '08, 03:29 PM

I replaced the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20 with an MoS based system and a little chart that equated to the levels. The Mental Power roll was an opposed roll against the targets ego, which could be modified by relevant combat levels, or resistance defined as such (which costs the same as mental defense, anyways). I will see if I can dig up a few power constructs and the chart.

I'd love to see them. What I posted above was quick 'n dirty, based on a quick read of the relevant sections in The Ultimate Skill and 4e Ultimate Mentalist.

Telepathy was built as a sense with its own modifiers and was costed so that a 20- roll came out at about 50 points (I don't remember exactly). I costed mind control and mental illusions similiarly. I never got around to doing claristience this way, but always wanted to. A frequent complaint about this approach is that it would be "too cheap," but setting the costs is a part of creating the powers (esp. the ones that aren't specifically sense based).

I'm not that worried; you can get a Sense up to 30-40 points easily, once you're getting up to the range where you can read minds, especially if you're using the extra modifiers I've added.

One thing we did that varied the way it worked was that mind control and telepathy could be affected by either the attacker or defender. Break outs were paralleled by attempts to get a higher level of effect. These additional contests could result in increasing, decreasing, or terminating the powers effect. It also had potential big fails for both attacker and defender that would give their opponent bonuses (in ego combat) for the rest of the scene.

That's kind of how I'm seeing this going. It seems like I'm reinventing your wheel, and yours has the added advantage that it's been driven on. I'd love to see yours.

Vondy

Mar 17th, '08, 03:32 PM

I'd love to see them. What I posted above was quick 'n dirty, based on a quick read of the relevant sections in The Ultimate Skill and 4e Ultimate Mentalist.

I'm not that worried; you can get a Sense up to 30-40 points easily, once you're getting up to the range where you can read minds, especially if you're using the extra modifiers I've added.

That's kind of how I'm seeing this going. It seems like I'm reinventing your wheel, and yours has the added advantage that it's been driven on. I'd love to see yours.

I'll dig. Right now I have to hit the sack. More Later.

GamePhil

Mar 17th, '08, 04:33 PM

Hugh Neilson

Mar 18th, '08, 05:52 AM

Enhanced Senses

Besides Sense Groups, each Sense is classified as Normal, Enhanced, or Unusual. A Normal Sense is one possessed by unenhanced humans. An Enhanced Sense is defined as a Sense not possessed by normal humans, but bought to work under one of the Standard Sense Groups. An Unusual Sense has the meaning it currently has.

In the current rules, Senses work in a 120 degree arc by default. They can be bought up to 240 and 360. I propose that they can be bought down to 60 and Single Target only (or possibly just to Single Target Only).

An Active Sense bought to Single Target requires the user to "paint" the target with an OCV vs. DCV roll. This uses all standard OCV and DCV modifiers for combat maneuvers and other reasons. Yes, you can Brace and Set to improve your chances of "painting" the target. Yes, you lose OCV for being unable to perceive your target. If the target is Invisibile to the sense in question it means he can't be painted. Painting a target has no ill effects; specifically, you can't Flash him with your Active Sense, though you can buy Flash linked to it. Painting a target can be performed as part of an Abort.

An Active Sense not bought to Single Target can still be used to paint the target.

Once you have painted the target, you still need to make a PER roll to gather any information about it. (Though, if the Sense is bought Targeting, you can attack the target immediately with another Power, without having to make a PER roll.)

If you lose a "painted" target you need to go through the whole process again to acquire them (OCV vs. DCV roll, followed by PER roll to find out anything).

(Need something in here about a painted target who breaks LOS. Per source, it should break the "lock". We need a modifier for being able to maintain the lock out of LOS. N-Ray? Indirect?)

How about Persistent? Isn't that what gets applied to Usable By Others to have it continue if the target leaves my LOS? Perhaps the better answer is to remove that effect from Persistent, and have a specific "Continues if LOS Lost" advantage for this, UBO and any other relevant power.

A painted target can, at the GM's option, be detected by anyone using the same or similar Sense (either a Passive version of the Active Sense, or by whatever Sense can detect use of the Active Sense).

Active Senses can be detected by a Normal Sense by default (this defaults to the same Sense, but can be defined otherwise by the player at the time the Sense is built). If it can only be detected by an Enhanced Sense, it costs +5 points, and if it can only be detected by an Unusual Sense, it costs +10 points.

Transmit Senses can by default transmit to and receive from a single Sense (the same kind by default, but it can be defined otherwise by the player at the time the Sense is built). If it can transmit to another Enhanced Sense (besides itself), it costs +5 points, and if it can transmit to a Normal Sense, it costs +10 points. (Potentially: if it can transmit to a Normal Sense, it costs +5 points.)

Traversing: The Sense can automatically traverse by up to 120 degrees per Phase. This is a 0-Phase Action and can be performed as part of an Abort. You can buy this up; in fact, maybe you can automatically traverse up to whatever your normal sensory arc is.

Overall, I'mnot certain how well this would work, but it merits some analysis.

Clairsentience:

I propose that Clairsentience be folded into Enhanced Senses. To an extent, it acts as Enhanced Senses; you can buy "Clair" Senses that you don't actually possess. I recommend using Ranged and Indirect (and/or Transdimensional) to represent Clairsentience.

Given we now have Megascale, this seems a reasonably workable approach.

Mental Powers As Interaction Skills / Using Them Through Senses

An Active Mental Sense bought to Single Target uses an OECV vs. DECV roll to paint the target. This effectively turns an Active Mental Sense into a Mental Power.

Consider Mind Scan to be Detect Mind, Active, Targeting, N-Ray, and Telepathy to be Detect Thoughts, Active, Transmit, Single Target. Potentially it could be Targeting, if you can use other abilities through the link.

In this system, Mental Powers are more or less Interaction Skills bought through (Mental, Active, Transmitting) Senses.

The Ultimate Skill gives guidelines for comparing the use of Interaction Skills to Mental Powers, and there's a pretty straight across comparison. It also gives guidelines for maintaining the use of the skill over time. The Ultimate Mentalist also gives guidelines for using Mental Powers to beef up Interaction Skills; we're going to use those as well, substituting Skill Levels for Power.

When buying Interaction Skills as Mental Powers, they are bought based on EGO rather than PRE. Also, any use of them is reduced by the target's Mental Defense; -1 to the roll per point of Mental Defense.

This makes Ego even more useful to the mentalist, as it beefs up the likelihood his mental attacks will succeed. I suspect it also boosts Mental Defense dramatically. It would cost me +5 for 1 level with all Ego Skills, I assume. My opponent can subtract 5 from my skill for the same cost. Perhaps the -1 needs to be per some number of Mental Defense.

Mental Defense also provides penalties to PER Rolls with Mental Senses: -1 per point of Mental Defense.

Now mental defense impacts both hitting and harming, making it yet more valuable. I think this is far excessive value for mental defense.

A character with high Active Point Mental Powers could buy either PER bonuses (for Mind Scan and/or Telepathy) or Skill Levels with Interaction Skills, potentially Linked to a Sense.

All characters have a Normal Mental Sense, namely the ability to sense their own thoughts. Two-way Telepathy would take the Normal Sense modifier (effectively, a telepath can transmit to the "Normal Mental Sense"). A Mind Scan can, by default, be detected by this same Sense.

How does the ability to transmit my own thoughts translate into the ability to read others' deep subconscious thoughts just by slapping Ranged on it?

Stealth and Concealment are Everyman Skills; it seems reasonable that Mental Stealth and Mental Concealment should be as well. If bought up they are EGO-based Skills; and essentially work as the basic Skills do, against Mental Senses.

Mental Awareness: Detect Mental Powers, Passive, Discriminatory, Range. Option: Targeting, Discriminatory, Analyze.

Do we need Mental Awareness when the other Mental Powers are now senses?

Mind Link: Detect Thoughts, Active, Discriminatory, Range, Single Target, Transmit, Communication Only (-1/2), Voluntary Targets Only (-1/2).

The LoS requirement needs to be eliminated, and its range significantly expanded, to duplicate the present ability to maintain the link anywhere on the same dimension.

Mind Scan: Detect Minds, Active, Analyze, Discriminatory, Range, Targeting, N-Ray.

Telepathy: Detect Thoughts, Active, Discriminatory, Range, Single Target, Transmit.

So if I just want to read their minds, I don't buy Transmit? This would need fleshing out to access surface vs deep vs memory vs subconscious thoughts. Mind you, most of it needs some fleshing out. I;d also like to see it costed out to show how it would work, and cost, for heroic-level and superheroic level characters

Using Interaction Skills As Mental Powers

The Skills are used directly, through the appropriate Transmit senses. (An unenhanced human ordinarily uses, for instance, Seduction through his Normal Hearing Transmit (Normal Speech) Sense; a mentalist would use it through his Telepathy.)

This basically makes a mentalist without telepathy unworkable, doesn't it? Would he normally use it through Mind Scan?

Replacing Mental Illusions with Images

Images can be bought with the Single Target Limitation. In this case, only a single target is affected by the Images. Using it this way means the user needs to target the Power using an OCV vs. DCV roll (or, optionally, and specifically for our purposes, an OECV vs. ODCV roll). When using it mentally, the target uses EGO Rolls rather than PER Rolls to "break out", and Mental Defense provides a bonus (or, perhaps, a penalty to the initial application of Images).

Extrapolating from this, perhaps the "optional rule" that mental powers may target with ECV rather than OCV needs to be brought within the core rules for all powers. If a mentalist can target Images with Ego, why not also telekinesis and/or energy blast (Mind Bolt)?

In order to harm a target with illusionary attacks, buy attack Powers with Invisible and BOECV Does BODY plus Requires Mental Images At +5 Or Better Margin; in this case, the +5 refers to the margin of the Images bonus minus the amount by which the target makes his EGO roll. (In this case, Images is bought with bonuses rather than penalties, at the same cost.)

(Images seems to be the odd man out here; it doesn't take a roll. So when you use it against a target, they're the ones who have to roll; rather than it being a Skill vs. Skill type of thing. Not sure how to deal with that or even if it's necessary.)

How do I use this new approach to remove my target's interaction with the real world entirely? I think there are substantial differences between the effects of Images and Mental Illusions at present.

Presence Attacks:

Since we're doing away with the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20, etc. mechanic, we're changing Presence Attacks as well. Add an Intimidation (Interaction) skill as an Everyman, though what used to be Presence Attacks (which might still keep the name) are now handled through Interaction Skills. The two most common Skills for Presence Attacks would be Intimidation and Leadership. Intimidation would be used to frighten someone, threaten them, essentially get them to do what you want through fear, while Leadership would be used to rally the troops, to get them to follow you. Oratory and Acting might easily have similar effects on crowds, while Persuasion and Seduction would be used on an individual.

I assume this is an Everyman 9+CHA/5 skill. Otherwise, PRE only boosts PRE attacks if you also pay for the skills. Already, high PRE characters lose the automatic ability to inspire. Can I buy PRE with a limitation "not to intimidate", since it now does so by default? If so, what is the limitation? There are certainly characters who are far more inspiring than frightening, or vice versa.

General conversion for CHA+X to Skill/CHA roll success:

(This part is subject to change.)

CHA 0-2
CHA+10 3-4
CHA+20 5-6
CHA+30 7-8

+10 +2
+20 +4

These numbers represent the amount you need to make your Skill Roll by to achieve the desired effect.

Overall, I think this needs to be heavily playtested to ensure its costing and balance are accurate, although I find it an interesting idea. Chris, I'd like to see three types of examples - a typical heroic character (eg. a fantasy Enchantress), a typical Super mentalist (maybe rebuild a sample character) and a couple of characters designed for a game focused on mentalists (ie how will this work when almost every credible opponent possesses both mental powers and mental defenses).

Hugh Neilson

Mar 18th, '08, 05:55 AM

I'd like to point out an alternative point of view I've been thinking about: Folding Mental Powers and Presence Attacks into Damage. In much the same way as EBs do Stun, and Stun is reduced to 0, -10, -20, and -30 points, you apply them against the appropriate Characteristic and "reduce" it to those points. The advantage would be using a similar system for more forms of attack. What would need to be done at that point is more clearly define instant vs. "instant but continuing" (what Mental Powers currently are) vs. cumulative effects, whether Breakout Rolls are appropriate, and a few other things not coming to mind.

I kind of like the idea of an unconscious person (mainly PCs or major bad guys) getting a roll to break out of unconsciousness (or, more accurately, getting a Recovery at low levels).

Not that I disagree with anything you're saying here, just thinking out loud.

I like this approach as well. Chris, under your system,. how does one build the equivalent of a Cumulative mental power? I liked this addition in 5e. The default mental powers are all or nothing, so you might take a target out in a single attack, but it's tough to accomplish. Cumulative made mental powers work in a more conventional attack model of "it takes a few hits to take the target out of the fight". Shifting to "sense & skill" seems to eliminate this possibility.

I'd also have to say that GamePhil's approach has the significant advantage of making the combat mechanics much more similar to physical combat for PRE and Mental attacks. A "one system" approach definitely has advantages over having one rule set for physical combat and another for psychic combat.

Vondy

Mar 18th, '08, 07:47 AM

Chris, under your system,. how does one build the equivalent of a Cumulative mental power? I liked this addition in 5e. The default mental powers are all or nothing, so you might take a target out in a single attack, but it's tough to accomplish. Cumulative made mental powers work in a more conventional attack model of "it takes a few hits to take the target out of the fight". Shifting to "sense & skill" seems to eliminate this possibility.

I'm rewriting the system I used for this method as we type. It won't be ready for a day or two as I have to reconstitute the powers and do some tweaking. Cummulative is possible to model because the levels of effect are still in place. Its just a question of how to do it. I doubt, with some thought, that it would be all that difficult.

BIG EDIT!!!

I am going to retract what I said above. Cummulative isn't necessary under this system. Here's why: the current system requires you to exceed EGO + MENTAL DEFENCE by X to get effect. As the number of dice increases you curve flattens. As a result, either you've got enough dice for the level of effect you want or you don't. In this system you are making opposed rolls and your target's MoS changes every time. As a result, you don't have a static number you are trying to overcome. Cummulative would only be neccessary for mental transforms, which don't fall into the "levels of success" system.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 18th, '08, 08:13 AM

First: Hugh, a lot of good points, and a few I haven't thought of. I'm quoting my own post and yours, hoping things don't get munged in the process; apologies if they do.

Enhanced Senses

Besides Sense Groups, each Sense is classified as Normal, Enhanced, or Unusual. A Normal Sense is one possessed by unenhanced humans. An Enhanced Sense is defined as a Sense not possessed by normal humans, but bought to work under one of the Standard Sense Groups. An Unusual Sense has the meaning it currently has.

In the current rules, Senses work in a 120 degree arc by default. They can be bought up to 240 and 360. I propose that they can be bought down to 60 and Single Target only (or possibly just to Single Target Only).

An Active Sense bought to Single Target requires the user to "paint" the target with an OCV vs. DCV roll. This uses all standard OCV and DCV modifiers for combat maneuvers and other reasons. Yes, you can Brace and Set to improve your chances of "painting" the target. Yes, you lose OCV for being unable to perceive your target. If the target is Invisibile to the sense in question it means he can't be painted. Painting a target has no ill effects; specifically, you can't Flash him with your Active Sense, though you can buy Flash linked to it. Painting a target can be performed as part of an Abort.

An Active Sense not bought to Single Target can still be used to paint the target.

Once you have painted the target, you still need to make a PER roll to gather any information about it. (Though, if the Sense is bought Targeting, you can attack the target immediately with another Power, without having to make a PER roll.)

If you lose a "painted" target you need to go through the whole process again to acquire them (OCV vs. DCV roll, followed by PER roll to find out anything).

(Need something in here about a painted target who breaks LOS. Per source, it should break the "lock". We need a modifier for being able to maintain the lock out of LOS. N-Ray? Indirect?)

How about Persistent? Isn't that what gets applied to Usable By Others to have it continue if the target leaves my LOS? Perhaps the better answer is to remove that effect from Persistent, and have a specific "Continues if LOS Lost" advantage for this, UBO and any other relevant power.

Hmmm, good idea. Maybe. I'm going to quote the bits on Clairsentience here, because they might end up being related....

Clairsentience:

I propose that Clairsentience be folded into Enhanced Senses. To an extent, it acts as Enhanced Senses; you can buy "Clair" Senses that you don't actually possess. I recommend using Ranged and Indirect (and/or Transdimensional) to represent Clairsentience.

Given we now have Megascale, this seems a reasonably workable approach.

It could be that whatever we end up using for Clairsentience will deal with the LOS issue as well.

Mental Powers As Interaction Skills / Using Them Through Senses

An Active Mental Sense bought to Single Target uses an OECV vs. DECV roll to paint the target. This effectively turns an Active Mental Sense into a Mental Power.

Consider Mind Scan to be Detect Mind, Active, Targeting, N-Ray, and Telepathy to be Detect Thoughts, Active, Transmit, Single Target. Potentially it could be Targeting, if you can use other abilities through the link.

In this system, Mental Powers are more or less Interaction Skills bought through (Mental, Active, Transmitting) Senses.

The Ultimate Skill gives guidelines for comparing the use of Interaction Skills to Mental Powers, and there's a pretty straight across comparison. It also gives guidelines for maintaining the use of the skill over time. The Ultimate Mentalist also gives guidelines for using Mental Powers to beef up Interaction Skills; we're going to use those as well, substituting Skill Levels for Power.

When buying Interaction Skills as Mental Powers, they are bought based on EGO rather than PRE. Also, any use of them is reduced by the target's Mental Defense; -1 to the roll per point of Mental Defense.

This makes Ego even more useful to the mentalist, as it beefs up the likelihood his mental attacks will succeed. I suspect it also boosts Mental Defense dramatically. It would cost me +5 for 1 level with all Ego Skills, I assume. My opponent can subtract 5 from my skill for the same cost. Perhaps the -1 needs to be per some number of Mental Defense.

Mental Defense also provides penalties to PER Rolls with Mental Senses: -1 per point of Mental Defense.

Now mental defense impacts both hitting and harming, making it yet more valuable. I think this is far excessive value for mental defense.

True. I haven't run this through a rigorous game design process yet, and definitely no playtesting; it's kind of spitballing at the moment.

A character with high Active Point Mental Powers could buy either PER bonuses (for Mind Scan and/or Telepathy) or Skill Levels with Interaction Skills, potentially Linked to a Sense.

All characters have a Normal Mental Sense, namely the ability to sense their own thoughts. Two-way Telepathy would take the Normal Sense modifier (effectively, a telepath can transmit to the "Normal Mental Sense"). A Mind Scan can, by default, be detected by this same Sense.

How does the ability to transmit my own thoughts translate into the ability to read others' deep subconscious thoughts just by slapping Ranged on it?

Good point. Bears more thought; perhaps Discriminatory and/or Analyze (and/or maybe Rapid) is necessary to get deeper.

Stealth and Concealment are Everyman Skills; it seems reasonable that Mental Stealth and Mental Concealment should be as well. If bought up they are EGO-based Skills; and essentially work as the basic Skills do, against Mental Senses.

Mental Awareness: Detect Mental Powers, Passive, Discriminatory, Range. Option: Targeting, Discriminatory, Analyze.

Do we need Mental Awareness when the other Mental Powers are now senses?

I more or less included it for completeness. I think Mental Awareness is built, now that I think on it; let me check the book when I can.

Mind Link: Detect Thoughts, Active, Discriminatory, Range, Single Target, Transmit, Communication Only (-1/2), Voluntary Targets Only (-1/2).

The LoS requirement needs to be eliminated, and its range significantly expanded, to duplicate the present ability to maintain the link anywhere on the same dimension.

Good point. I'll work on it some more.

Mind Scan: Detect Minds, Active, Analyze, Discriminatory, Range, Targeting, N-Ray.

Telepathy: Detect Thoughts, Active, Discriminatory, Range, Single Target, Transmit.

So if I just want to read their minds, I don't buy Transmit? This would need fleshing out to access surface vs deep vs memory vs subconscious thoughts. Mind you, most of it needs some fleshing out. I;d also like to see it costed out to show how it would work, and cost, for heroic-level and superheroic level characters

True.

Using Interaction Skills As Mental Powers

The Skills are used directly, through the appropriate Transmit senses. (An unenhanced human ordinarily uses, for instance, Seduction through his Normal Hearing Transmit (Normal Speech) Sense; a mentalist would use it through his Telepathy.)

This basically makes a mentalist without telepathy unworkable, doesn't it? Would he normally use it through Mind Scan?

He could if he had bought Transmit on it.

Replacing Mental Illusions with Images

Images can be bought with the Single Target Limitation. In this case, only a single target is affected by the Images. Using it this way means the user needs to target the Power using an OCV vs. DCV roll (or, optionally, and specifically for our purposes, an OECV vs. ODCV roll). When using it mentally, the target uses EGO Rolls rather than PER Rolls to "break out", and Mental Defense provides a bonus (or, perhaps, a penalty to the initial application of Images).

Extrapolating from this, perhaps the "optional rule" that mental powers may target with ECV rather than OCV needs to be brought within the core rules for all powers. If a mentalist can target Images with Ego, why not also telekinesis and/or energy blast (Mind Bolt)?

Good point. I've mentioned elsewhere the notion that Ego Blast needs to be removed and replaced with Energy Blast BoECV.

In order to harm a target with illusionary attacks, buy attack Powers with Invisible and BOECV Does BODY plus Requires Mental Images At +5 Or Better Margin; in this case, the +5 refers to the margin of the Images bonus minus the amount by which the target makes his EGO roll. (In this case, Images is bought with bonuses rather than penalties, at the same cost.)

(Images seems to be the odd man out here; it doesn't take a roll. So when you use it against a target, they're the ones who have to roll; rather than it being a Skill vs. Skill type of thing. Not sure how to deal with that or even if it's necessary.)

How do I use this new approach to remove my target's interaction with the real world entirely? I think there are substantial differences between the effects of Images and Mental Illusions at present.

Another good point. It could be that some of the functionality of Mental Illusions gets folded into Images, or it could be that that gets simulated with another Power entirely (Entangle, maybe). Bears further thought.

Presence Attacks:

Since we're doing away with the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20, etc. mechanic, we're changing Presence Attacks as well. Add an Intimidation (Interaction) skill as an Everyman, though what used to be Presence Attacks (which might still keep the name) are now handled through Interaction Skills. The two most common Skills for Presence Attacks would be Intimidation and Leadership. Intimidation would be used to frighten someone, threaten them, essentially get them to do what you want through fear, while Leadership would be used to rally the troops, to get them to follow you. Oratory and Acting might easily have similar effects on crowds, while Persuasion and Seduction would be used on an individual.

I assume this is an Everyman 9+CHA/5 skill. Otherwise, PRE only boosts PRE attacks if you also pay for the skills. Already, high PRE characters lose the automatic ability to inspire. Can I buy PRE with a limitation "not to intimidate", since it now does so by default? If so, what is the limitation? There are certainly characters who are far more inspiring than frightening, or vice versa.

I was thinking Everyman on 8-, because not everyone really knows how to intimidate, but it could certainly be Everyman at full 9+CHA/5 for player characters.

General conversion for CHA+X to Skill/CHA roll success:

(This part is subject to change.)

CHA 0-2
CHA+10 3-4
CHA+20 5-6
CHA+30 7-8

+10 +2
+20 +4

These numbers represent the amount you need to make your Skill Roll by to achieve the desired effect.

Overall, I think this needs to be heavily playtested to ensure its costing and balance are accurate, although I find it an interesting idea. Chris, I'd like to see three types of examples - a typical heroic character (eg. a fantasy Enchantress), a typical Super mentalist (maybe rebuild a sample character) and a couple of characters designed for a game focused on mentalists (ie how will this work when almost every credible opponent possesses both mental powers and mental defenses).

Absolutely. I will work up some example characters when I can and have time. It might take some further fleshing out of this whole subsystem before I can, but I will try to.

I'd like to point out an alternative point of view I've been thinking about: Folding Mental Powers and Presence Attacks into Damage. In much the same way as EBs do Stun, and Stun is reduced to 0, -10, -20, and -30 points, you apply them against the appropriate Characteristic and "reduce" it to those points. The advantage would be using a similar system for more forms of attack. What would need to be done at that point is more clearly define instant vs. "instant but continuing" (what Mental Powers currently are) vs. cumulative effects, whether Breakout Rolls are appropriate, and a few other things not coming to mind.

I kind of like the idea of an unconscious person (mainly PCs or major bad guys) getting a roll to break out of unconsciousness (or, more accurately, getting a Recovery at low levels).

Not that I disagree with anything you're saying here, just thinking out loud.

I like this approach as well. Chris, under your system,. how does one build the equivalent of a Cumulative mental power? I liked this addition in 5e. The default mental powers are all or nothing, so you might take a target out in a single attack, but it's tough to accomplish. Cumulative made mental powers work in a more conventional attack model of "it takes a few hits to take the target out of the fight". Shifting to "sense & skill" seems to eliminate this possibility.

I'd also have to say that GamePhil's approach has the significant advantage of making the combat mechanics much more similar to physical combat for PRE and Mental attacks. A "one system" approach definitely has advantages over having one rule set for physical combat and another for psychic combat.

Good points again. I'm thinking that my system sort of handles Cumulative; Von D-Man pointed out to me that this can give a feel of back-and-forth, the mentalist trying to improve his rolls while his target tries to break out by improving his. I'm not sure it's precisely Cumulative, though.

(This might be the wrong time to point out that I'm not that fond of Cumulative Mental Powers :) But I can see them from a certain standpoint... that feel might be better emulated with a Drain EGO.)

Vondy

Mar 18th, '08, 08:46 AM

Good points again. I'm thinking that my system sort of handles Cumulative; Von D-Man pointed out to me that this can give a feel of back-and-forth, the mentalist trying to improve his rolls while his target tries to break out by improving his. I'm not sure it's precisely Cumulative, though.

(This might be the wrong time to point out that I'm not that fond of Cumulative Mental Powers :) But I can see them from a certain standpoint... that feel might be better emulated with a Drain EGO.)

See my edit above on cummulative.

Some other thoughts:

1) I recommend not using skills for presence attacks, but rather, using them as complimentary rolls for presence attacks.

2) Most of these powers won't need transmit as you aren't really sending thoughts (except mind link).

3) Mental Awareness can remain a specialty sense for detecting the use of mental powers. I don't think the average character needs it. It can be assumed "a target knows he's under attack [as well as what he is thinking]"

4) Mental Defense should be relegated to Ego Attacks, Ego Adjustment Powers, and Ego Transforms. Its already super-cheap, and the disparity in dice between the previously mentioned powers and level of effect powers means that, if you buy enough mental defense to protect from the level of effect powers, you've neutered the other powers that are more expensive per die. Its one defense that works against two different scales (already). The use of mental defense for level of effect powers in an MoS based system would completely neuter these powers as the curve for opposed rolls can be dramatically affected by a few points. My system uses Resistance with relevant special effects for level of effect powers and Mental Defense for Ego Attack and BOECV powers.

5) I don't see line of sight as being a serious issue. Telepathy, Mind Control, Mental Illusions, Ego Attack, and BOECV powers do work on line of sight, but we have Mind Scan, which is intended to allow those powers to function when the target is not in LOS. Why would that need to change? They can still purchase Mind Scan to go with their mental powers. We just have to decide what needs to be done to build it as a sense. I just built it as an exotic targeting sense. If that breaks down for some reason we can create a special adder, or a special advantage, or tack megascale onto it to give it an extended range beyond LoS. Its not a problem. Its an opportunity for creative tinkering.

Vondy

Mar 18th, '08, 12:17 PM

RELATIVE MOS MECHANIC FOR PRESENCE ATTACKS AND MENTAL POWERS

Note: I don't have the Ultimate Skill. The first section may be covered there.

The Driving Mechanic:

The driving mechanic behind this system is the opposed characteristic-skill roll, with the determinate factor being the Relative Margin of Success (MoS) on the die roll. In the current system an opposed characteristic-skill roll has three potential results: Win (MoS 1+), Tie (MoS 0), or Lose (MoS -1 or greater). This is insufficient for mental and presence attacks, which currently has five possible outcomes: Fail, Characteristic+0, Characteristic+10, Characteristic+20, Characteristic+30.

Usage Note: For the rest of this post I will refer the four potential levels of success as Levels 1-4. I.e. Level 1 (L1) is Characteristic+0, Level 2 (L2) is Characteristic+10, Level 3 (L3) is Characteristic+20, Level 4 is Characteristic+30.

To provide the necessary granularity for opposed rolls we rely on the Relative Margin of Success. That is, the MoS for the contest is derived from the variance between the attacker and defender's respective Margins of Success.

Attacker's MoS – Defender's MoS = Relative MoS.

Example: Scary Man has a Presence Roll of 15-. He makes a presence attack on Pencil Necked Geek (3d6) and gets a 9, which provides an MoS of +5. Pencil Necked Geek has a Presence Roll of 11-. He also rolls a 9, which gives him an MoS of +2. The Relative MoS is (+5 - +2 = +3) 3.

Results Note: It may look like the MoS results in the example above are off by 1. Its important to remember that a roll equal to your characteristic or skill roll is MoS 0.

Once we have the relative MoS we have determined the results of the contest, which are:

Relative MoS 0- Fail
Relative MoS 1-3 Level 1 (Characteristic+0)
Relative MoS 4-5 Level 2 (Characteristic+10)
Relative Mos 6-7 Level 3 (Characteristic+20)
Relative MoS 8+ Level 4 (Characteristic+30)

So, in our example Scary Man got a Relative MoS of 3, which is L1 (Characteristic+0). Pencil Necked Geek is starting to get the heebie-jeebies.

The reasoning: Initially, I allowed MoS 0 to achieve Level 1 because the current lowest level of effect for Presence Attacks and Mental Powers is Characteristic+0. However, this proved problematic. First, it created dissonance as a tie in an opposed characteristic-skill roll goes to the defender or results in a roll off. Second, the mechanic was used for Presence Attacks and it was felt MoS 0 should go to the defender as most modifiers went to the attacker's advantage. And third, mentalists tend to have rolls allowing fairly consistent mid-level success against most targets.

This is the driving mechanic. If you've got this you've got the whole resolution system that follow. As is written, “the rest is commentary.”

PRESENCE ATTACKS

Presence Attacks are handled as simple Presence vs. Presence or Presence vs. Ego contests with the relative MoS determining the level of effect (see above). The the defender may use whichever characteristic roll is better.

Attacker Modifiers: the attacker's presence roll can be modified by situational modifiers (see current presence attack rules), an appropriately defined reputation perk, the complimentary use of relevant interaction skills, or presence skill levels.

Defender Modifiers: the defender's roll is modified by Resistance [if the special effect is relevant] or presence skill levels.

On Resistance: In terms of effectiveness, 1 level of resistance equates to +5 Presence (Defense Only -1) in the current system. As Resistance is normally more narrowly defined than “Presence Defense” its cost of 1:1 balances out pretty well. However, if the player wants to define a broad special effects that affects all presence attacks the cost should be increased to 2:1.

Note: In the case of situational modifiers and reputation +1d6 = +1 (and -1d6 = -1).

Example: Impact, a massive gray-alien-hybrid brick has PRE 30 (Roll 15-) and wants to intimidate Anthem. He picks up a car and bounces it off the pavement and screams in fury beating his chest, gaining +3 for a suitably impressive action. He rolls 3d6 with a modified presence roll of 18- and gets a 13. His MoS is +4. Anthem has an EGO 19 (Roll 13-) and has Resistance [non-plussed] +4. He rolls 3d6 with a modified presence roll of 17- and gets and 11. His MoS is +5. The Relative MoS is +4 - +5 = -1. Anthem asks “You done?” Impact says: “Yep.”

Weird Results Lasting Longer Than One Phase: the effects of presence attacks are fairly transient. Unless the attacker is continuing to make presence attacks the defender may make an unopposed Ego roll with resistance and/or relevant combat skill levels to recover in the rare event effects lasted beyond a single phase.

Ongoing Presence Contests: An option, though not one I recommend, is to use the breakout and lockdown rules (see mental powers, below) to simulate ongoing presence contests. This could lead to abuse, especially against mooks, and I recommend gamemasters think real hard before allowing it.

“I'm a haughty!” (ahem...): An option for comeliness friendly gameasters is to allow the attacker make Comeliness attacks in lieu of Presence attacks where logical.

MENTAL POWERS

Mental Powers results are resolved with Power Roll vs. Ego contests with the relative MoS determining the level of effect (see above).

Attacker Modifiers: the attacker's presence roll can be modified by relevant combat skill levels or power specific modifiers noted in the power write-up.

Defender Modifiers: the defender's roll is modified by Resistance [if the special effect is relevant] or relevant combat skill levels.

Resistance Notes: Resistance is purchased vs. mental powers with level based effects at a cost of 2:1. It is not purchased against Ego Attacks or other BOECV Powers. Also, some players may want to combine their resistance vs. presence attacks with their resistance vs. mental powers. The cost of resistance bought this way is 3:1 or 4:1 depending on how broad a spectrum of presence attacks the resistance protects against (gamemaster's call).

Breakout: the defender has the option of trying to break off mental combat by initiating an Ego vs. Power contest. If the defender's Relative MoS is a negative number the attempt fails. If the Relative MoS is 0+ the lock is reduced by the number of levels indicated on the Level of Effect Table. A 0 is treated as a “1” for this purpose. The defender's breakout roll uses the Breakout modifiers specified in 5ER or situational modifiers as deemed apropos by the GM.

Lockdown: the attacker may attempt to increase his Level of Effect by making an additional power roll on an available phase. If the MoS is 1+ the Level of Effect is increased by the number of levels indicated on the Level of Effect Chart (Maximum Level: 4). However, if the relative MoS is 0, or the defender wins the contest, the Level of Effect is reduced by the amount indicated on the Level of Effect Table.

Breakout-Lockdown Comments: the breakout and lockdown mechanics favor the defender (slightly) by considering a Relative MoS of 0 a win for the defender. This was done as a result of experience during play. In most contests the mentalist has a higher roll to start with, giving them a natural advantage.

Ego Attack and Mental Defense: since ego attack has always functioned with different effects than the “level of effect” mental powers it – and mental defense – are not a part of this rule-set. I would add, mental defense is already super-cheap and the “level of effect” powers have traditionally operated at a 2:1 ratio in terms of dice compared to ego attack. As a result, characters with enough MD to defend against “level of effect” powers tended to be unassailable by ego attack. Since MD works against ego based adjustment powers and ego transforms it remains a good buy even if it doesn't affect the level based powers.

SAMPLE POWER CONSTRUCTS

Mental Powers are constructed using the sense rules, or with sense-like constructs. The powers that follow were put together fairly slapdash so we would have some very general examples to illustrate the overall concept. These powers would need full write ups and options in a final product and would need to be tweaked, but that would be Steve's job and isn't within the scope of this post.

Note: I couldn't remember the Unusual Sense Group cost off the top of my head so I assumed it was +5. This is included in all the power constructs that follow.

Mental Awareness

Is used for detecting the use of mental powers you are not being targeted with – in other words, mental powers (or relevant phenomena) in your vicinity. It can, of course, take adders and advantages relevant to sense powers.

Telepathy

Telepathy is the ability to sense other people's thoughts. The construct below represents a typical telepathy build, but adders could be added or removed to change the function. Telepathy is assumed to cost endurance.

Detect: Thoughts, Analyze +5, Discriminatory +5, Ranged +5, Targeting +10, Roll 11-. Cost: 33 Points.

Additional +1 to Roll: 2 Points.
Additional Class of Minds: +5 Points.
Other sense adders could be used to simulate other effects; as could relevant advantages and limitations.

As a benchmark: A 20- telepathy roll would cost 51 points.

Mind Control

Mind Control isn't really a sense, but it makes use of the general sense framework. Mind Control is assumed to cost endurance. The base cost is intended to be the same as telepathy (8 Points). Instead of having telepathic as an advantage I converted it into an adder.

Mind Control, Ranged (+5), Targeting (+10), Telepathic (+10), Roll 11-. Cost: 33 Points.

Additional +1 to Roll: 2 Points.
Additional Class of Minds: +5 Points.
Other sense adders could be used to simulate other effects; as could relevant advantages and limitations.

As a benchmark: A 20- Mind Control roll would cost 51 points.

Mind Scan

Mind Scan lets you make mental contact – and use mental powers – with targets outside your LOS. Its base cost is the same as telepathy and mind control. It is assumed to cost endurance.

Instead of creating custom adders or tacking megascale onto the power to simulate its range we just use the penalties for numbers of minds in the area being scanned, and the familiar-unfamiliar mind penalties, that exist in the current Mind Scan power write up.

I chose this method because its simple and it requires a high power roll for large areas / numbers of minds, or scads of PSLs (GM Option). This meant it didn't need range base advantages or adders to be costed correctly. After all: its just a long range target lock that you use in tandem with another power.

Option: we could use adders that were defined by the numbers of minds being scanned and do away with the need for a high roll and/or PSLs.

Detect: Mind, Analyze +5, Discriminatory +5, Ranged +5, Targeting +10, Roll 11-. Cost: 33 Points.

Additional +1 to Roll: 2 Points.
Additional Class of Minds: +5 Points.
Other sense adders could be used to simulate other effects; as could relevant advantages and limitations.

As a benchmark: A 20- Mind Scan roll would cost 51 points.

Mind Link

Mind Link creates a voluntary telepathic link for communication purposes. It is assumed to cost endurance. Whether or not analyze-discriminatory are necessary for a voluntary sharing of thoughts is an interesting question. For my game I didn't require it. I also didn't use the “one specific mind/group of minds/any mind” levels because, built as it is, it does “any one mind” by default. Its assumed to be LOS unless the range adders are purchased.

Detect: Thoughts, Ranged +5, Roll 11-. One Specific Mind -1. Cost: 7 Points.

Detect: Thoughts, Ranged +5, Planet +15. Cost: 28 Points.

Detect: Thoughts, Ranged +5, Planet +15, All Senses +22. Cost: 50 Points.

Additional +1 to Roll: 2 Points.
Additional Class of Minds: +5 Points.
X2 Minds In Link: +5 Points.
Continent: +5 Points.
Hemisphere: +10 Points.
Planet: +15 Points.
Any Distance: +20 Points.
Add sight group: +8 Points.
Add hearing group: +5 Points.
Add taste, smell, touch groups: +3 Each.
One Specific Mind -1
Specific Group of Minds -½
Other sense adders could be used to simulate other effects; as could relevant advantages and limitations.

Mental Illusions

Note: Oddly, this power didn't show up often in my game and was never used in this kind of configuration. The current cost is unbalanced compared to the other powers. I am unsure what other adders would be appropriate, or what advantages and limitations are unique to the power that would pump the price up. One might be classes of illusions that can be made. This powers NEEDS TO BE FIXED. I include it here for completeness, and to let other minds make suggestions.

Mental Illusions allows you to plunge your target into a world of illusion so convincing that, at the higher levels of effect, they may take damage. It is assumed to cost endurance. Its base cost is the same as the other powers (8).

Mental Illusions, Ranged +5. Roll 11-. Cost: 13 Points.

Additional +1 to Roll: 2 Points.
Additional Class of Minds: +5 Points.

Other sense adders could be used to simulate other effects; as could relevant advantages and limitations.

As a benchmark: A 20- Mental Illusions roll would cost 31 points.

One Simple Solution: raise the base cost so that it weighs in around the same price range as the other level based mental powers.

A NOTE FROM OUR SPONSOR ABOUT RESISTANCE

At present a character with a 10d6 Mental Power (equitable to a 20- roll cost-wise) can expect an average roll of 35. In a campaign where the average character has an Ego of 10-20 this means they can expect an average result of characteristic+15-25 without mental defense coming into play. Even with mental defense, most characters ony have a moderate amount, and they can still expect to get Characteristic+0 against such opponents, it not Characteristic+10. While players tend to want the big levels, subtle minded individuals can put those levels of effect to good use.

As such, a character with telepathy 20- should be hoping to get similiar results on an average roll (10-11). But resistance is cheap. Even at 2:1 Resistance is a good buy. Gamemaster's should consider putting a cap on it, or at least auditing it to ensure it doesn't completely neutralize mental powers. In my games there is a general cap of +4 with more requiring GM permission. I recommend guaging the ratios carefully and setting them at an appropriate level for the campaign.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 18th, '08, 01:05 PM

1) I recommend not using skills for presence attacks, but rather, using them as complimentary rolls for presence attacks.

Sounds like a better idea than where I was going. I think I was trying to make "everything a Skill" as far as Presence Attacks went. The only difference I can see is I'd recommend allowing an Interaction Skill to be used instead of a Presence Roll.

2) Most of these powers won't need transmit as you aren't really sending thoughts (except mind link).

Classic Telepathy is two-way, and using Persuasion (which we might think about renaming, in line with Cloak, Facade, Veil, and other skills from The Ultimate Mentalist) would almost require a two-way connection of some kind. Images I'll grant.

3) Mental Awareness can remain a specialty sense for detecting the use of mental powers. I don't think the average character needs it. It can be assumed "a target knows he's under attack [as well as what he is thinking]"

Sure, but I like the idea of "Choose a Sense to which you can Transmit (which may be "Normal Mental")" as a generalization for Senses. Partly because I think you can get some cool expansions of the Sense rules, and partly because I hate saying "Here's how these rules work, but only if you're using (thing X)".

4) Mental Defense should be relegated to Ego Attacks, Ego Adjustment Powers, and Ego Transforms. Its already super-cheap, and the disparity in dice between the previously mentioned powers and level of effect powers means that, if you buy enough mental defense to protect from the level of effect powers, you've neutered the other powers that are more expensive per die. Its one defense that works against two different scales (already). The use of mental defense for level of effect powers in an MoS based system would completely neuter these powers as the curve for opposed rolls can be dramatically affected by a few points. My system uses Resistance with relevant special effects for level of effect powers and Mental Defense for Ego Attack and BOECV powers.

True, but maybe Mental Defense is too cheap? The reason I want to use it is that historically it is what stops the other Powers, not just EGO Attack. Given that, for the other Powers, one point of Mental Defense is the same as one point of EGO, EGO Defense easily becomes "+1 EGO, Only Vs. Mental Powers (-1)". Which doesn't hold true for Ego Attack, grrr. But it's a close enough approximation.

5) I don't see line of sight as being a serious issue. Telepathy, Mind Control, Mental Illusions, Ego Attack, and BOECV powers do work on line of sight, but we have Mind Scan, which is intended to allow those powers to function when the target is not in LOS. Why would that need to change? They can still purchase Mind Scan to go with their mental powers. We just have to decide what needs to be done to build it as a sense. I just built it as an exotic targeting sense. If that breaks down for some reason we can create a special adder, or a special advantage, or tack megascale onto it to give it an extended range beyond LoS. Its not a problem. Its an opportunity for creative tinkering.

True enough. See also my response to #3.

Question about Mental Powers going all the way out to LOS: Is this how it commonly works in the source material? I've seen it all over the map, I think. 4e TUM notes that you can target Mental Powers if you can sense who you're hitting with a Targeting Sense; if they're way out on the horizon, you might have some penalties (up to and including being at half OECV). At any rate, it sounds like Perception leaking into OECV the same way it does into OCV.

(This may be one of the sacred cows to be slaughtered, the idea that Mental Powers are somehow so much better than the others that they can work, for instance, anywhere in the same dimension. Certainly they could work that way, but perhaps forcing them to is unduly applying SFX to the system's basic mechanics.)

I'll respond to your next post when I can, which isn't right at the moment. I'll quickly say that it looks like either we were drawing from the same source (you don't have any iterations of The Ultimate Mentalist, do you?) or at least both reinventing a wheel that rolled through TUM and TUS.

Vondy

Mar 18th, '08, 01:25 PM

Sounds like a better idea than where I was going. I think I was trying to make "everything a Skill" as far as Presence Attacks went. The only difference I can see is I'd recommend allowing an Interaction Skill to be used instead of a Presence Roll.

I think that is an excellent option.

Classic Telepathy is two-way, and using Persuasion (which we might think about renaming, in line with Cloak, Facade, Veil, and other skills from The Ultimate Mentalist) would almost require a two-way connection of some kind. Images I'll grant.

I agree its normally send-receive. The problem is, the power is set up as receive only in its current form with Mind Link being used as the actual communication based form of telepathy. In truth, telepathy in the current system should probably be named "probe" because that's the effect. I would argue, if we were to have telepathy with transmit, we should drop mind link altogether, or create a "mind link" adder for telepathy that turns it into a communication link with forcible proble potential. If we want to really be radical: why is mind-scan a separate power: its just a telepathic search for a target-mind. That could be folded into telepathy as well.

Sure, but I like the idea of "Choose a Sense to which you can Transmit (which may be "Normal Mental")" as a generalization for Senses. Partly because I think you can get some cool expansions of the Sense rules, and partly because I hate saying "Here's how these rules work, but only if you're using (thing X)".

It could be assumed people have access to the mental sense group, but no mental sense powers - ergo "psychic potential."

True, but maybe Mental Defense is too cheap? The reason I want to use it is that historically it is what stops the other Powers, not just EGO Attack. Given that, for the other Powers, one point of Mental Defense is the same as one point of EGO, EGO Defense easily becomes "+1 EGO, Only Vs. Mental Powers (-1)". Which doesn't hold true for Ego Attack, grrr. But it's a close enough approximation.

We aren't far off the mark. When you get through my other post you'll see my thoughts on this. I think mental defense is WAY TOO CHEAP in its current form.

Question about Mental Powers going all the way out to LOS: Is this how it commonly works in the source material? I've seen it all over the map, I think. 4e TUM notes that you can target Mental Powers if you can sense who you're hitting with a Targeting Sense; if they're way out on the horizon, you might have some penalties (up to and including being at half OECV). At any rate, it sounds like Perception leaking into OECV the same way it does into OCV.

(This may be one of the sacred cows to be slaughtered, the idea that Mental Powers are somehow so much better than the others that they can work, for instance, anywhere in the same dimension. Certainly they could work that way, but perhaps forcing them to is unduly applying SFX to the system's basic mechanics.)

I say murder it. Kill it good. Trample it under foot.

Mental Powers already work against an exotic defense and BOECV is expensive enough that a lot of powers are prohibitive when you try to build them. Without LOS you could go so far as to streamline all attacks at 5 points per die targeting one of three equal defenses PD/ED/MD. I can already decide whether my EB affects PD/ED carte blanche based on SFX. Why can't I purchase Energy Blast with a special effect "mental bolt" and declare it vs. MD. The only difference (without LOS) is that you don't get Ego/5 Mental Defense as a figured characteristic. Even for high-ego characters that tends to be no more than 5-6 points total difference.

If people want LOS they can buy no range modifiers at + 1/2 - like they do for every other attack power.

I'll respond to your next post when I can, which isn't right at the moment. I'll quickly say that it looks like either we were drawing from the same source (you don't have any iterations of The Ultimate Mentalist, do you?) or at least both reinventing a wheel that rolled through TUM and TUS.

No TUM for me. But there is an underlying unifying set of mechanics in the system. Its probable that we're intuiting the same underlying structure and digging at it.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 18th, '08, 01:46 PM

Note to self:

Things to do:

* Finish up the sense effects chart (aka what you can buy and what you pay for it)

* Sample builds of some Mental Powers

* Interaction Skills renamed/optimized for Mental usage

* Unify the tables from TUM and TUS with Von D-Man's post. (Von D-Man: I suspect I'll end up leaning more toward those than yours, but I think I'm going to look at your modifiers. I'm definitely going to keep your post in mind, and perhaps try to find a way to generalize some of your modifiers out to non-Mental Senses.)

* More in-depth work on how to either use Images to represent Mental Illusions, or fold those troublesome-ly missing aspects into Images, or just say that the Power that lets you fool people's Senses lets you fool their senses, period, and you need other mechanics to do other things. (Seriously, we have two Powers that let you fool other people's Senses; they both have, in a manner of speaking, SFX applied to them; and they both bring in baggage from those SFX that neither of them needs. Better to unify them into one Power, IMO.)

Hugh Neilson

Mar 18th, '08, 08:29 PM

Mind Control, Ranged (+5), Targeting (+10), Telepathic (+10), Roll 11-. Cost: 33 Points.[/INDENT]

Additional +1 to Roll: 2 Points.
Additional Class of Minds: +5 Points.
Other sense adders could be used to simulate other effects; as could relevant advantages and limitations.

As a benchmark: A 20- Mind Control roll would cost 51 points.
************************************************** ********
A NOTE FROM OUR SPONSOR ABOUT RESISTANCE

At present a character with a 10d6 Mental Power (equitable to a 20- roll cost-wise) can expect an average roll of 35. In a campaign where the average character has an Ego of 10-20 this means they can expect an average result of characteristic+15-25 without mental defense coming into play. Even with mental defense, most characters ony have a moderate amount, and they can still expect to get Characteristic+0 against such opponents, it not Characteristic+10. While players tend to want the big levels, subtle minded individuals can put those levels of effect to good use.

As such, a character with telepathy 20- should be hoping to get similiar results on an average roll (10-11). But resistance is cheap. Even at 2:1 Resistance is a good buy. Gamemaster's should consider putting a cap on it, or at least auditing it to ensure it doesn't completely neutralize mental powers. In my games there is a general cap of +4 with more requiring GM permission. I recommend guaging the ratios carefully and setting them at an appropriate level for the campaign.

I've hopefully left enough that my comment makes sense. Bump the attack from 50 points to 60 points, and now the roll is 25-. In other words, the margin of success increases by 1-2 levels for 10 points, where the old system would see an increase in average roll of 7 points, raising MoS by 0-1 levels. You've mentioned the low cost of Resistance, which carries a similar issue.

My point?

I think the cost of admission (the base power) is too high and the cost of enhancing the ability (roll bonuses) is too low. As a consequence, it seems like these abilities will be competetive (neither overwhelming nor useless) in only a very narrow range of point costs.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 18th, '08, 11:24 PM

Some more things have occurred to me in the meantime. None of them are on my to-do list, unfortunately.

Mental Skills:

The following Skills can be based on EGO, and have their effects through or versus Mental Senses-as-Mental-Powers. (Mental Skills is a new Skill Group, ranking with Intellect Skills, Agility Skills, and Interaction Skills.)

Acting
Analyze
Animal Handler
Bribery
Bugging
Bureaucratics
Computer Programming (vs. Computers or some machine intelligences)
Concealment
Conversation
Disguise
Gambling
High Society
Interrogation
Mimicry
Oratory
Persuasion
Seduction
Shadowing
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Streetwise
Tracking

In particular, Animal Handler and Computer Programming can be used against Animal and Computer minds, respectively.

A more in-depth list will follow with some further information on how to handle them.

Clairsentience:

Clairsentience is a +5 point Adder to a Sense.

Through Time (one direction) is +20 points; both directions is +40 points. Into a single dimension is +10 points; into a related group of dimensions is +20 points.

Clairsentience will be a straight adder to the Sense, allowing you to put your sensory point somewhere outside of you.

You can define the Sense Group the Clairsentience senses in, as well as optionally defining how the information gets to you (typically, the latter is as a Mental Sense, but others are possible; Radio can be used to represent listening devices or bugs).

Range of senses: This is mostly common sense, dramatic sense, and special effects.

Rule of thumb: 1-10 kilometers, depending on a variety of factors.

Clairsentience has a range of 10 kilometers (unless the GM decides otherwise), and can be bought up from there with MegaScale.

The GM might decide that all Powers (including Senses) with the Psionics special effect have a planetary range, and can affect anyone the character can see with no Range Modifier, or through Mind Scan anywhere the mentalist can sense.

If a Sense (including Clairsentience Senses) works with another Power based on distance or range, whether by mechanics (e.g. Linked) or simply by being defined as working together, the Sense's maximum range is the same as the other Power. So, if you had Clairsentience to tell you whether a spot was safe to Teleport to, the Clairsentience is limited to the distance of your Teleport Power, whether that's 10 meters or Megascaled to 100 kilometers. There's no Advantage or Limitation associated with this.

A Clairsentience point can be "set" to follow a moving target, in which case it follows that target at a fixed distance, regardless of how fast the target goes, without any effort required from the user. The user can move it at up to 6" per Phase, following the 5e rules for this part.

To hit a specific spot with a Clairsentience point requires an OCV vs. DCV roll to hit the hex.

Characters who buy Indirect on an Attack Power can attack from their Clairsentience point, tracing LOS from that point to the target, and attack as if they were standing at the Clairsentience Point.

Tags: (These really deserve a better name.) Tags are either permanent or temporary "sensory spots". Primarily but not exclusively intended for Clairsentience. Based on Teleport fixed and floating locations, they have the same cost (for one Sense, 1 point for fixed, 5 for floating; for a Sense Group, 2 points for fixed, 10 for floating); to get more you can either buy them at their single cost or pay 5 points for 2x, and you can mix and match them for however works better for you (so you could buy 10 fixed for 10 points, and pay another 5 to double that to 20).

They function similarly to fixed and floating Teleport locations; with a temporary tag, it takes one Turn to "memorize" a new target. Permanent tags, of course, don't change. Permanent and Temporary simply refer to how long a tag is associated with a particular target.

Having a tag means you don't have to roll OCV vs. DCV to target a Clairsentience or Active Sense "paint" attempt, nor do you have to make a Perception roll to sense the target, as long as the target is within your sensory range.

You can tag a location, Vehicle, or character.

If a Sense with Tags is built with the Physical Manifestation Limitation, the Tags become physical objects that may be placed and stop working if destroyed. This represents the total amount of Tags a character can have; if one is destroyed, he can create another through some means.

Tags can be used to represent things like a permanent Mind Link with a loved one, a radio bug placed on a car, a crystal ball tuned to follow a particular hero, a character who can pluck out his own eyes and ears and leave them behind to see and listen, etc.

Vondy

Mar 19th, '08, 01:51 AM

I've hopefully left enough that my comment makes sense. Bump the attack from 50 points to 60 points, and now the roll is 25-. In other words, the margin of success increases by 1-2 levels for 10 points, where the old system would see an increase in average roll of 7 points, raising MoS by 0-1 levels. You've mentioned the low cost of Resistance, which carries a similar issue.

My point?

I think the cost of admission (the base power) is too high and the cost of enhancing the ability (roll bonuses) is too low. As a consequence, it seems like these abilities will be competetive (neither overwhelming nor useless) in only a very narrow range of point costs.

That's a costing question [how much it costs], rather than a concept question [does the concept work]. At the same time, its a very good point. The cost of all the powers I built can be adjusted pretty easily. First, I doubt the +5 I charged for "unusual sense group" is correct, and whether "detect thoughts" actually needs Analyze, Discriminatory is a question of interpretation. One might argue, thoughts are thoughts and that the distinction between thought, emotion, and memory is unecessary (valid, but unecessary - the current telepathy power doesn't make such a distinction without limitations applied). Between those two things alone you could drop 15 points off the buy-in cost bringing it down to 23 points. And, the cost of increasing the power could be raised to 3:1.

Would that fix it?

In truth, as much as I like the sense method, I had considered modelling most telepathy related powers as high skills used in conjunction with mind-link / mind-scan like construct that required a skill vs. ego test. Chris' earlier comment got me fiddling.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 19th, '08, 10:11 AM

Question: We can either try to adapt existing Skills to use through Senses to replace the diced/leveled Powers, or we can create new Skills to represent them (or Skill-like Powers, if you want to get technical). Which is better?

I know it's a bit late for me to add a poll to this thread, and I think Steve would probably frown on it :) So I'm asking in the thread.

Pros of using existing Skills: Most of the work is already done for us, including the adaptation to long term use (TUS).

Cons: People might see them as "only" Skills and not as "real" as using, for instance, a Mind Control Power.

Pros of using new Skills: We can define them a bit better.

Cons of using new Skills: We have to do the work to define them.

Vondy

Mar 19th, '08, 10:51 AM

I think the extant skills with a few new ones to fill niche effects for specific powers is the way to go. It would be a waste not to leverage extant mechanics.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 19th, '08, 01:13 PM

I think the extant skills with a few new ones to fill niche effects for specific powers is the way to go. It would be a waste not to leverage extant mechanics.

A data point in their favor is that TUM gives a few extra Skills, namely Cloak, Veil, and Facade, which are essentially mental versions of Stealth, Concealment, and Disguise. But I probably won't do more than write up a list of mental Skills and their physical world equivalents.

Vondy

Mar 19th, '08, 03:06 PM

Tags: (These really deserve a better name.) Tags are either permanent or temporary "sensory spots". Primarily but not exclusively intended for Clairsentience. Based on Teleport fixed and floating locations, they have the same cost (for one Sense, 1 point for fixed, 5 for floating; for a Sense Group, 2 points for fixed, 10 for floating); to get more you can either buy them at their single cost or pay 5 points for 2x, and you can mix and match them for however works better for you (so you could buy 10 fixed for 10 points, and pay another 5 to double that to 20).

They function similarly to fixed and floating Teleport locations; with a temporary tag, it takes one Turn to "memorize" a new target. Permanent tags, of course, don't change. Permanent and Temporary simply refer to how long a tag is associated with a particular target.

Having a tag means you don't have to roll OCV vs. DCV to target a Clairsentience or Active Sense "paint" attempt, nor do you have to make a Perception roll to sense the target, as long as the target is within your sensory range.

You can tag a location, Vehicle, or character.

If a Sense with Tags is built with the Physical Manifestation Limitation, the Tags become physical objects that may be placed and stop working if destroyed. This represents the total amount of Tags a character can have; if one is destroyed, he can create another through some means.

Tags can be used to represent things like a permanent Mind Link with a loved one, a radio bug placed on a car, a crystal ball tuned to follow a particular hero, a character who can pluck out his own eyes and ears and leave them behind to see and listen, etc.

Why not use the same nomenclature as teleportation: fixed and floating location?

Chris Goodwin

Mar 19th, '08, 03:14 PM

Why not use the same nomenclature as teleportation: fixed and floating location?

I think I had a good reason at the time for why not, but at the moment I can't remember what that reason might have been.

Vondy

Mar 19th, '08, 10:14 PM

Chris Goodwin

Mar 19th, '08, 11:45 PM

I think senses allow you to purchase multiple perception points at present (don't have the rules with me). The notion seems to fit security cameras and the like, but you could tack that option onto claristience as a sense. If that doesn't cover the idea well enough maybe the terms fixed and floating perception points would suffice.

I myself don't know if they do, but they should.

I'm not sure if you're talking about multiple simultaneous perception points, but (in case you're not) the rules should support them also. The notion of multiple (simultaneous) perception points works very well for many different SFX, including for Mind Link with more than one person. Fixed and floating points aren't quite intended for that (mainly they're for things like a permanent Mind Link, a location or person you can Clair on at will, and the like). "Memorized locations," for Senses. But if you had simultaneous targets, with multiple perception points you could look in on more than one of your Tags at the same time. For example, take a whole wall of security monitors with feeds coming in simultaneously; say you had 16 Tags with Physical Manifestation, representing 16 cameras you had around, but 4 simultaneous perception points, representing four monitors in the bank. That should be doable in our system with a relatively simple build.

Vondy

Mar 20th, '08, 07:41 AM

I myself don't know if they do, but they should.

I'm not sure if you're talking about multiple simultaneous perception points, but (in case you're not) the rules should support them also. The notion of multiple (simultaneous) perception points works very well for many different SFX, including for Mind Link with more than one person. Fixed and floating points aren't quite intended for that (mainly they're for things like a permanent Mind Link, a location or person you can Clair on at will, and the like). "Memorized locations," for Senses. But if you had simultaneous targets, with multiple perception points you could look in on more than one of your Tags at the same time. For example, take a whole wall of security monitors with feeds coming in simultaneously; say you had 16 Tags with Physical Manifestation, representing 16 cameras you had around, but 4 simultaneous perception points, representing four monitors in the bank. That should be doable in our system with a relatively simple build.

I think it should be handled similiarly to designing a focus: whether its breakable or not is something you decide at the outset that doesn't affect cost. Its a concept issue. So too this: you should design when making the power whether its one or more at a time.

James Gillen

Mar 21st, '08, 09:44 PM

I'm rewriting the system I used for this method as we type. It won't be ready for a day or two as I have to reconstitute the powers and do some tweaking. Cummulative is possible to model because the levels of effect are still in place. Its just a question of how to do it. I doubt, with some thought, that it would be all that difficult.

BIG EDIT!!!

I am going to retract what I said above. Cummulative isn't necessary under this system. Here's why: the current system requires you to exceed EGO + MENTAL DEFENCE by X to get effect. As the number of dice increases you curve flattens. As a result, either you've got enough dice for the level of effect you want or you don't. In this system you are making opposed rolls and your target's MoS changes every time. As a result, you don't have a static number you are trying to overcome. Cummulative would only be neccessary for mental transforms, which don't fall into the "levels of success" system.

Plus which, don't skills get Extra Time mods?

JG

Chris Goodwin

Mar 21st, '08, 09:52 PM

Plus which, don't skills get Extra Time mods?

JG

Good point, and rep. That's gotta work in somehow.

Hugh Neilson

Mar 22nd, '08, 06:59 AM

Plus which, don't skills get Extra Time mods?

JG

In fairness, mental attacks effectively get time mods. If you have unlimited time, you can keep rolling until you achieve the desired result. And many such abilities in the source material do seem to have greater effect over time - telepathic interrogation, long-term mental domination and pulling the terget into a separate world by mental illusions all seeming to take place more often when the mentalist has the target prisoner or otherwise helpless to resist over time.

Perhaps that becomes the effective "cumulative" under this system.

Vondy

Mar 22nd, '08, 10:41 AM

Plus which, don't skills get Extra Time mods?

JG

You are correctamundo!

I hadn't thought about it, but its a good buttressing point.

James Gillen

Mar 22nd, '08, 08:36 PM

In fairness, mental attacks effectively get time mods. If you have unlimited time, you can keep rolling until you achieve the desired result. And many such abilities in the source material do seem to have greater effect over time - telepathic interrogation, long-term mental domination and pulling the terget into a separate world by mental illusions all seeming to take place more often when the mentalist has the target prisoner or otherwise helpless to resist over time.

Perhaps that becomes the effective "cumulative" under this system.

That's my point. You don't get that effect in the xd6 system unless you use Cumulative Advantage or some of the conditional modifiers in the Ultimate Mentalist books.

jg

Hugh Neilson

Mar 23rd, '08, 06:29 AM

That's my point. You don't get that effect in the xd6 system unless you use Cumulative Advantage or some of the conditional modifiers in the Ultimate Mentalist books.

I'd like to see 6th Ed consider making Cumulative the default for mental powers. Perhaps we bump their cost to 10 points per d6, but they are cumulative without limit. 6d6 with a limit of 144 seems basically unlimited anyway. A 144 point effect will achieve an Ego +30 effect on a 40 Ego target with a -14 to the breakout roll anyway.

If you want this attack - or any other - to be all or nothing, you take a limitation.

Transform has evolved to this structure. I see no reason mental powers should not be modified to be consistent in this regard.

James Gillen

Mar 23rd, '08, 08:56 PM

I'd like to see 6th Ed consider making Cumulative the default for mental powers. Perhaps we bump their cost to 10 points per d6, but they are cumulative without limit. 6d6 with a limit of 144 seems basically unlimited anyway. A 144 point effect will achieve an Ego +30 effect on a 40 Ego target with a -14 to the breakout roll anyway.

If you want this attack - or any other - to be all or nothing, you take a limitation.

Transform has evolved to this structure. I see no reason mental powers should not be modified to be consistent in this regard.

That's a good way to do it if Steve's not going to use Chris' model.

JG

Vondy

Mar 23rd, '08, 09:50 PM

I'd like to see 6th Ed consider making Cumulative the default for mental powers. Perhaps we bump their cost to 10 points per d6, but they are cumulative without limit. 6d6 with a limit of 144 seems basically unlimited anyway. A 144 point effect will achieve an Ego +30 effect on a 40 Ego target with a -14 to the breakout roll anyway.

If you want this attack - or any other - to be all or nothing, you take a limitation.

Transform has evolved to this structure. I see no reason mental powers should not be modified to be consistent in this regard.

Transform has effects that can last months (dependent on recovery rates) or are conditionally permanent. Mental powers are not intended to behave this way with the exception of mental transforms. They are intended to be transitory. They last for a scene at best.

Hugh Neilson

Mar 24th, '08, 06:05 AM

Transform has effects that can last months (dependent on recovery rates) or are conditionally permanent. Mental powers are not intended to behave this way with the exception of mental transforms. They are intended to be transitory. They last for a scene at best.

Regardless of how successful the mind control is, the victim gets a breakout roll every time increment (gradually increasing unless the mentalist continues spending END). As such, the mental power will end at some point.

This approach can be simulated with an ordinary mental power under the current model. Just buy it Cumulative and apply it multiple times. Once the breakout roll is a 3 (say a -13 to the breakout roll), the target will be trapped for a while. With that 144 maximum (6d6, cumulative, x4 maximum), a 30 Ego target can be at a +30 effect with -13 to the breakout roll, so he needs a 2- for the first roll, a 3- after a turn, a 4- after a minute, a 5- after 5 minutes, 6- after 20 minutes, 7- after an hour, 8- after 5 hours, 9- after a day and 10- after a week. He has to make it eventually, but he's likely to be under for some time. Especially if the mentalist makes a habit of reinforcing the effect on a regular basis.

To get that effect, our Mentalist needs an average of 7 hits (6.86; more if the target had mental defense). A 4d6 Mental Transform would require an average of 5 hits (4.29 actually), more if the target has Power Defense, and applies no breakout roll (unless that's the recovery condition). Are the two so differently powered that the former needs to be ruled out of the game?

"That's not the way these powers presently work" doesn't bother me at all when we're proposing changes for a new edition, with the proviso that there are no sacred cows. Let's change the way it works. The source material is full of stories where mental powers accumulate over time and/or have significant long-term ramifications. That's not to say examples of short-duration effects are uncommon either, but those are achieved by applying the "all or nothing" limitation. Or, perhaps, we have two different types of mental powers, 5 points per die for the current "all or nothing" and 10 points for the proposed "accumulating". That would keep AP manageable and avoid requiring a full rewrite for short term mental powers.

Vondy

Mar 24th, '08, 06:23 AM

Regardless of how successful the mind control is, the victim gets a breakout roll every time increment (gradually increasing unless the mentalist continues spending END). As such, the mental power will end at some point.

This approach can be simulated with an ordinary mental power under the current model. Just buy it Cumulative and apply it multiple times. Once the breakout roll is a 3 (say a -13 to the breakout roll), the target will be trapped for a while. With that 144 maximum (6d6, cumulative, x4 maximum), a 30 Ego target can be at a +30 effect with -13 to the breakout roll, so he needs a 2- for the first roll, a 3- after a turn, a 4- after a minute, a 5- after 5 minutes, 6- after 20 minutes, 7- after an hour, 8- after 5 hours, 9- after a day and 10- after a week. He has to make it eventually, but he's likely to be under for some time. Especially if the mentalist makes a habit of reinforcing the effect on a regular basis.

To get that effect, our Mentalist needs an average of 7 hits (6.86; more if the target had mental defense). A 4d6 Mental Transform would require an average of 5 hits (4.29 actually), more if the target has Power Defense, and applies no breakout roll (unless that's the recovery condition). Are the two so differently powered that the former needs to be ruled out of the game?

"That's not the way these powers presently work" doesn't bother me at all when we're proposing changes for a new edition, with the proviso that there are no sacred cows. Let's change the way it works. The source material is full of stories where mental powers accumulate over time and/or have significant long-term ramifications. That's not to say examples of short-duration effects are uncommon either, but those are achieved by applying the "all or nothing" limitation. Or, perhaps, we have two different types of mental powers, 5 points per die for the current "all or nothing" and 10 points for the proposed "accumulating". That would keep AP manageable and avoid requiring a full rewrite for short term mental powers.

I am against having cummulative being the default. I understand your general notion of mental powers being point for point less effective than other powers, but in practice this will swing the pendulum all the way the other way. Also, while some players may want to be able to achieve those levels of effect regularly, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is a good idea in an actual play sense, or that they will want to have the same mechanic turned on them. Sometimes concept does not equate to workable in a game sense, or fun. There will be no character even a relatively low number of dice can't totally dominate eventually and knock out of an entire scene. That should not be a carte blanche implementation of all mental powers. It should be a case by case GM approval option.

Chris Goodwin

Mar 24th, '08, 07:39 AM

Though I'm in agreement with Von D-Man, I'd like to keep this thread focussed on using Senses, Skills, and/or CHA Rolls to eliminate the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20, etc. effects from Mental Powers and PRE Attacks. I think the discussion of Cumulative Mental Powers ought to be taken back to the main threads.

ajackson

Mar 25th, '08, 04:24 PM

Some thoughts:

a) If you're going to simulate mental powers as skills and senses, I'd go all the way and toss Ego from the formulation. Telepathy is a normal Per roll (resisted by Ego) or possibly an Interrogation roll, Mind Control is a Pre skill. All the 'mental power' descriptor is doing is saying that you're sending the message via telepathy, rather than sending the message audibly.
b) The margin of success numbers you have are probably overly lenient; it's trivial to get a skill of 21-. I'd go with -5 to your skill per +10 level of effect, so if you want a 'strongly opposed' task, you'd be rolling at -15. It's also worth capping skill levels based on the active point level, probably 9 + (AP cap)/5.
c) For a cumulative task, I'd say 'Increase control by one level' is 5 points easier than getting control directly; thus, to go from none to max is Skill +0 (gets +0 control), Skill +0 (gets +10 control), Skill -5 (gets +20 control), Skill -10 (gets +30 control). If you want to do it faster, you can roll at -5/-5/-10 or just at -10/-10.

Vondy

Apr 1st, '08, 08:23 AM

Any progress?

Chris Goodwin

Apr 1st, '08, 08:27 AM

I apologize, but there hasn't been. My wife's work schedule has gotten insane lately (twice annually she works essentially 60 hour weeks, and this is one of the periods) and I haven't had any spare time to put into it.

Vondy

Apr 1st, '08, 08:49 AM

Not a problem. Just curious.

Chris Goodwin

Apr 6th, '08, 10:04 PM

Just a quickie... potential new Adder for Senses: Lock-on, either +5 or +10 points. A Sense with Lock-on automatically continues to perceive a target, once the target has already been "acquired" (perceived with the Sense), unless the target breaks Line of Sight, or unless the character chooses to break the lock. At the GM's option there may be other ways of breaking the lock as well (especially if the Sense is N-Ray, Clair, or otherwise indirect).

I will go into more detail later about how this works (especially, once I figure it out for myself -- suggestions are welcome). It would replace the earlier notions I had about a sense locking on absent this Adder.

Edit: Some potential uses: additional OCV levels that require a sensory lock; a Seeking or Homing attack that requires a sensory lock in order to function; a by-the-book Mind Scan would have this as well as would, potentially, Mind Link.

Chris Goodwin

Apr 6th, '08, 10:12 PM

Another quickie: in the current rules (or maybe I'm remembering a 4th-editionism that may not have made into 5e?) if a character had a Mental Power with Damage Shield, it would automatically affect any other character using a Mental Power on the character. I'd like to keep this, and generalize it out to Sense-Affecting Powers; if you're perceiving a character, and that character has a Flash Damage Shield that affects the Sense you're using, you are automatically Flashed.

Chris Goodwin

Apr 8th, '08, 11:35 PM

My recent post on the 5e Rules Questions forum has clarified and somewhat altered some of the ideas I had around Transmit. There's nothing in the rules to suggest a normal human has any kind of default Mental Sense, which would leave one unable to sense a Mental Sense Transmission. It would be akin to attempting to use a Normal Hearing Transmit (speech) to communicate to someone with Physical Limitation: Deaf.

So, since I'm partly looking at replicating Mind Link, I decided to look there for inspiration. Mind Link has a -1 Limitation: Only With Others Who