Pimp Cane Problems [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

Dr Lucky

Jul 31st, '03, 04:22 AM

HERO Designer 1.47 seems to be doing the math wrong for certain combinations of Limitations on powers. Specifically, it seems to be rounding differently depending on which equal value limitations are used. Here's the Pimp Cane I was building when I first noticed the problem:

<table border=1><tr><td bgcolor="white"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"> Cost  </td><td> Power</td><td align="right"> END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">   </td><td> Jeweled Cane I, all slots: OAF (-1), Powers Cannot Be Pushed: Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top"> 4  </td><td> 1) KA I: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 0d6 +1 (plus STR) (vs. PD), Penetrating (x2; +1) (10 Active Points); Linked to Drain I (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"> 1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top"> 6  </td><td> 2) Drain I: Drain COM 0 1/2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Week) (+1 3/4) (14 Active Points); Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Effect Anyone Wearing A Protective Helmet Or Mask: Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"> 1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">   </td><td>  </td><td valign="top" align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">   </td><td> Jeweled Cane II, all slots: OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"> </td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top"> 4  </td><td> 1) KA II: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 0d6 +1 (plus STR) (vs. PD), Penetrating (x2; +1) (10 Active Points); Linked to Drain II (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"> 1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top"> 5  </td><td> 2) Drain II: Drain COM 0 1/2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Week) (+1 3/4) (14 Active Points); Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Effect Anyone Wearing A Protective Helmet Or Mask: Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"> 1</td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 19</td></tr></table>

Why does the Drain in the first Jeweled Cane cost one more real point that the Drain in the second Cane? The only difference is one limitation placed on the entire list, in one case the Real Weapon limitation (-1/4) and in the other case the Limited Power limitation set to a value of -1/4. They should round out the same. This has happened to me a few times while making very complex power constructs, usually with Advantages and Limitations on both the Framework or List, as well as the individual power, and, if I recall correctly, always when using the Limited Power limitation. I wish I remembered what the other instances were, but this one stuck out because I had been creating a silly, joke power to cost very few points, and that one point really got my attention. I attached the HD file in case it helps.

Simon

Jul 31st, '03, 04:36 AM

Because in the first list, the "Limited Power" Limitation on the slot ("Does Not Effect Anyone Wearing A Protective Helmet Or Mask: Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness ") replaces the Limited Power Limitation on the list itself ("Powers Cannot Be Pushed: Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness ").

This is true of (almost) any Modifier placed on a List: the slot will override the List's Modifier if it takes the same one.

If you want to apply Limited Power twice (and your GM allows it), then use a Custom Modifier rather than Limited Power for the slot itself.

Dr Lucky

Jul 31st, '03, 04:40 AM

Sounds good. This all makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the quick reply, especially this early in the morning.

Killer Shrike

Jul 31st, '03, 07:02 AM

As far as I can tell in fact there is never a reason to use Limited Power. Ive lately taken to just using Custom Modifiers instead of Limited Power -- its easier to get to (on the power form itself) and not as verbose, taking less space on the character sheet (or preventing me from having to delete the "Power looses X of its usefulness bit and type something else".

By the way Ron, I thought ECHO was a done deal; you tweaking him some more?

Blue

Jul 31st, '03, 07:06 AM

I find myself using limited power to get the approximate worth of something (Does this limit it to 1/3 it's effectiveness? How much is that worth?), then making the custom mod (because the description is shorter) to replace it.

Talon

Jul 31st, '03, 07:46 AM

I never use Limited Power myself; it seems to cause more problems than it solves.

Killer Shrike

Jul 31st, '03, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Blue
I find myself using limited power to get the approximate worth of something (Does this limit it to 1/3 it's effectiveness? How much is that worth?), then making the custom mod (because the description is shorter) to replace it. Right; the limitation value is the same. The Limited Power description "Power is 1/3 as useful" --or whatever -- is immaterial, and Custom Mods are easier to get at AND are correctly stackable.

Really, "Limited Power" the Limitation is really just "Some other Limitation we didnt list specifically" and probably should have been called "Custom Limitation" or something along those lines in FRED IMO. "Limited Power" is confusing to noobs bcs any power with any Limitation on it is a Limited Power, but then you have a subclass of Limitations specifically called that. 1 term with two meanings should be avoided in rules systems IMO.

:D

rjcurrie

Jul 31st, '03, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
I never use Limited Power myself; it seems to cause more problems than it solves.

Same here.

MisterVimes

Jul 31st, '03, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
As far as I can tell in fact there is never a reason to use Limited Power. Ive lately taken to just using Custom Modifiers instead of Limited Power -- its easier to get to (on the power form itself) and not as verbose, taking less space on the character sheet

Preach on brother! Custom Mods are the best feature of the software

Chris Goodwin

Aug 1st, '03, 07:06 PM

It wasn't until very recently that I realized Limited Power was in there.