Using N-ray vision to read a book on a shelf

[vanAdamme]

Hey guys,

I am a newcomer to the Hero System and am planning on starting a 1920's Chicago-style low-level hero campaign. I have two players whose characters are down on their luck detectives.

One of my players wants to be blind, but with the ability to clairvoyantly see in a 360 degree range, with x-ray vision giving him the ability to read books on shelves without moving.

Firstly, I assume that all of this means he cannot get any points back from taking 'blind' as a disadvantage.

Secondly, how would the sight power work? I've taken:

Increased Arc of Perception (360) with Sight Group - 10 points
N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) - 10 points

I'm assuming though that this means he can see all around him, but only in straight lines like normal sight, so he could only read the pages of a book that were facing him.

Any advice would be great!

Cheers,
vanAdamme

[Thia Halmades]

Hey guys,

I am a newcomer to the Hero System and am planning on starting a 1920's Chicago-style low-level hero campaign. I have two players whose characters are down on their luck detectives.

One of my players wants to be blind, but with the ability to clairvoyantly see in a 360 degree range, with x-ray vision giving him the ability to read books on shelves without moving.

Firstly, I assume that all of this means he cannot get any points back from taking 'blind' as a disadvantage.

Secondly, how would the sight power work? I've taken:

Increased Arc of Perception (360) with Sight Group - 10 points
N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) - 10 points

I'm assuming though that this means he can see all around him, but only in straight lines like normal sight, so he could only read the pages of a book that were facing him.

Any advice would be great!

Cheers,
vanAdamme

First, and foremost: WELCOME TO HERO!!

Now that the formalities are out of the way, I am the Lord Captain Thia Halmades. I claim no authority here whatsoever, but I've done "some work," as I'm fond of saying. In regards to your query:

First and foremost, well done. You've already realized that he is in fact not blind at all, but sees infinitely better than anyone around him and seemingly without any penalty. You CAN come up with nifty disads for how his 'sight' is disrupted, but yeah. If brother can read a book, brother can see just fine.

The book thing is not, and should not be, covered by this power. He has N-Ray vision, all well and good. That's fine. But that doesn't mean he can read text sideways, that just doesn't make sense. I would use the talent, "Speed Reading," (on p.92 of 5th Revised) and then add an advantage, "Reading via Osmosis," at +1 or so (doubling the cost). Thus he can speed read by seeing 'into' the text. The best way, IMO, is to make this two separate powers.

Be advised that things like 360o vision have possible game-breaky consequences. That power isn't nearly as easy to handle as you may think it is. Just remember that if you want any element of surprise, you'll have to make some of that character's PER rolls on your own, otherwise you wind up with the meta-game element "I'm on my guard!" Although you could very well trust your PCs to not be punks like that. Up to you. ;)

[vanAdamme]

Awesome response, thank you!

The book thing was more of an example of he wants to be able to do. I think he'd also like to be able to look into drawers and under tables and stuff like that. Could that be written as up a weird version of stretching perhaps? Have it range limited, applied only to sight, doesn't cross intervening space...

[Thia Halmades]

Awesome response, thank you!

The book thing was more of an example of he wants to be able to do. I think he'd also like to be able to look into drawers and under tables and stuff like that. Could that be written as up a weird version of stretching perhaps? Have it range limited, applied only to sight, doesn't cross intervening space...

Now you're back to typical N-Ray vision, i.e., he can see into things that you normally couldn't see into; he doesn't need Stretching for that, it just has to be perceivable (and you can use the Range Modifiers as PER modifiers if he's trying to discern something further away with accuracy; you can also add in size modifiers and "real life" or "dramatic life" examples (i.e., tell me when you can no longer discern this is a bag of flower)). Most people would rule (myself included) that if he's right up on a drawer, whatever, he can perceive into it.

Things to bear in mind: Know what stops him from seeing things. if he takes reputation, OTHER people have a chance of knowing it. That's the way it goes. If he doesn't, then use your common sense. Most drawers aren't lead lined.

Some paint, however, is, especially in older areas, tenements and the like. So if the element is 'lead' or a similar heavy metal, go nuts. Also, don't be too lenient; "gold" is far too uncommon, as is silver. The book gives good examples as well, but that's a critical piece. But he should be able to 'perceive normally' through most objects and see what's inside. That's what he paid points for.

Oh, yeah, big deal in HERO: When the PC pays points for something, don't nerf it on the back side. Let the thing he paid points for work. If it gets out of hand, talk to the player! PLEASE! Don't just start having "lead show up everywhere" or something else absurd. Common & dramatic sense, as we say.

If you would like some additional advice, I'd make sure that his N-Ray vision costs END to use, preferably a LOT of END so he has to be judicious with it. You might even throw in a side effect, "Cannot use power for at least X time," and then once you're comfortable with him getting clever with it, you may pull up off the limitations a bit, but remember: It's infinitely simpler to REMOVE limitations and give people more wiggle room than it is to ADD limitations because something isn't working.

[vanAdamme]

Thanks again, Thia. I will take all of this into consideration. I was already considering making the vision stuff cost END to use, that way he would actually be blind for most of the time (and could take it as a disadvantage, although a lesser one than standard blindness) and only really use it in emergencies.

Cheers,
vanAdamme

[Thia Halmades]

Absolutely, but don't let him take an END Battery. ;)

[Captain Obvious]

Absolutely, but don't let him take an END Battery. ;)

An END Battery? I thought you said you were a 5th Edition convert. "END Battery" hasn't been used since 3rd Edition.

What is Halmades up to?

[Thia Halmades]

An END Battery? I thought you said you were a 5th Edition convert. "END Battery" hasn't been used since 3rd Edition.

What is Halmades up to?

What am I up too indeed? :eg:

[Kenn]

What if the N-Ray vision can't see through glass?

[Susano]

Also realize that N-Ray might give foggy or fuzzy images and thus allow you to keep it under control -- mean the PC can look through objects next to him, but can examine an entire building from the street outside.

Just a suggestion.

[GreyGuardian]

If you only wanted to be able to speed read books (even when closed and on a shelf in a dark room) you might also build it as a detect written words, with sense, discriminatory, analyze, and rapid (probably a lot of rapid). You can do a lot of funky things with detects that are not tied to an existing sense. You can also create game (or plot) breaking powers.

[schir1964]

You could also look at it from a different perspective.

Let's take an example that uses normal sight. Let's say there is 10 foot chameleon on the side of a large redwood tree.

The chameleon is in plain sight, however, due to the nature of the chameleon it may or may not be noticed by the character. So what we are talking about here is simply perception and what bonuses and penalties one receives to "notice" the chameleon.

Now how would this apply to N-Ray Vision.
First, for the concept of N-Ray Vision to work, the character must be able to recognize objects (perception) beyond the object that is being seen through., so there must be some translation of what is being seen on the other side of the object that the mind can recognize.

Second, simply being able to see through objects doesn't grant any additional bonuses or mitigate other penalties imposed by standard perception rules.

So while one with N-Ray Perception might be able to see through to the middle of a book, it doesn't grant any additional bonuses for reading the book beyond that and thus all the requirements for normal reading apply.

Thus:
Orientation: If the book isn't oriented for normal reading then the standard penalty should apply. So if the character can't read a page of text looking on edgewise normally, then N-Ray Vision won't help with this either.

Range: Range penalties aren't mitigated by have N-Ray Vision.

Discrimination: Keeping track of where you are reading requires discrimination if one doesn't have a physical marker such as a finger or bookmark. So without additional bonuses it may take much longer to read since the character would have to find each new page he intends to read.

Hope this helps.

- Christopher Mullins

[Sociotard]

I would not use N-ray!

Reason from effect. He wants to be able to do read a lot of stuff fast. That's rapid.

He wants to be able to sit in a chair and read books from anywhere in the room. Print is pretty small from accross the room, so he'll need microscopic. A little math says that if he has 100X microscopic, he can read comfortably at 18 feet. (I didn't go with telescopic because that's vs. range modifiers. Range doesn't even add modifiers until 39 feet.)

He doesn't need Detect: Print because normal people can already see print just fine. (yeah, he's blind, but I think he'll still get 25 points worth of problems from being blind. I'd allow this, anyway) He does need to be able to do this detecting without anybody seeing him. Since normally you could see a person pick up and open a book and normally you could hear them flip pages, this power needs to be +1/2 invisible power effects (unusual for a sensory power)

Okay, wrapping all that up for you sir, Rapid (1000X): +9, Microscopic (100X): +10 = 19
+ Invisible Power Effects (+1/2) = 28 active points.

- Concentration, 1/2 DCV (+1/4) - Text Only (+1) = 12 Real Points.

Bear in mind that this is NOT a targeting power. He can't just see the business card in an opponents jacket and use it to shoot for the heart. Oddly enough, it also doesn't work in the dark or in smokey rooms. A normal person would have to be able to read in the environment. Otherwise he does have to add Detect: Text.

[vanAdamme]

Thanks for all the great replies!

Bear in mind though that as I said to Thia the book idea was just an example. Ultimately he would be able to look around a room as if from any angle. So if he was sitting at a desk he'd be able to look under the desk as if he were lying on the floor. Almost like he had a pair of invisible eyes which could fly around seeing for him.

[Sociotard]

If he can look around a room as if at any angle, that's Clairvoyance, pure and simple. N-ray is just for one direction through things.

[schir1964]

If he can look around a room as if at any angle, that's Clairvoyance, pure and simple. N-ray is just for one direction through things.
Ditto. Clairvoyance is what you are really looking for.

- Christopher Mullins

[Thia Halmades]

Well, again, let's keep the entire character in mind.

First, he has Clairvoyance; "mobile eye sight," which is in and of itself, NOT N-Ray vision (although you could certainly build them as a compound power if you were so inclined, giving you game-breaky mobile N-Ray vision... ew). Additionally, he'll still want a separate power to speed-read books.

Me? I'd chuck the lot and give him Danger Sense and Detect Auras. But that's me. :eg:

[Tonio]

It should, obviously, be done with XDM: To A Dimension Where I Can Read Closed Books From Across The Room, And Also Look At Stuff From Any Direction, And Also Look Through Stuff, Too.

[Susano]

It should, obviously, be done with XDM: To A Dimension Where I Can Read Closed Books From Across The Room, And Also Look At Stuff From Any Direction, And Also Look Through Stuff, Too.

Perfect!!! :thumbup: