Question about Velicoty based Hero

[jammer_smith]

My group has just recently started using the Hero system. So there are some aspects to the rules we are still hazy on. One of our group decided to play a speedster, and after a few sessions it seems that his character is far more powerful than the rest of ours with the same number of points put into the build.

He has put almost all his points into movment and damage reduction. He bought a large portion of his damage reduction with the disadvatage that it only protects him from damage dealt to himself by his move attacks. So with this build he is able to deal massive damage with his move bys and move through with no risk of hurting himself due to his damage reduction. It seems to me that we must be missing somthing. The only thing in my view that balanced the velocity based hero was that they hurt themselves with their attacks, but with this build there is no flaw. Maybe it is just a really good build, but I don't think a game this popular would be that unbalanced, becuase looking through the book, it seems to me that is you wanted to be a hard hitting character, there is no reason NOT to be a velocity based hero with damage reduction. The only shortcomming of the build is that he is easily damaged, but as long as he ends his move path a good distance away from the enemy, there is only a slim chance that he will be attacked unless the game master targets him directly. And we all know how lousey it feels as a Game Master to have to pick on one player becuase their build is too good and they unbalance the encounters.

[Steve Long]

I think this is intended as a Discussion topic or request for general help/advice, rather than being a rules question per se, so I've moved it.

[Hyper-Man]

Speedsters are one of the most complex character types to construct and play without upsetting a campaigns balance.

It can be done however.

[archermoo]

Why would there be only a slim chance that he would be attacked? Bad guys should have the ability to act tactically, and taking out someone as potentially effective as this character is sounds like a good tactical move.

As to not wanting to "pick on" a character, they chose to build the character the way they did. If the character is easily hurt, that doesn't mean you as a Ref should avoid attacking the character.

And for that matter, one bad guy with a Martial Throw and the ability to go first (whether by taking a delay, having a higher DEX, whatever) will likely seriously cramp the speedster's style. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Martial Throw as Archermoo notes. Reserving an action until the speedster comes close, then throwing an (area effect) attack. Tossing a force wall or Continuous AoE in his way. Firing a long-range attack at him. There are lots of ways to deal with such a character.

By the way, I don't remember for sure, but isn't rule is that a character doing a move through can't move any further afterwards than the knockback he inflicted? The velocity modifier to OCV for a move through is pretty painful as well.

My first question, however, would be "why is he only resistant to impact when he creates the impact?" Just putting a mechanical ability down doesn't cut it. Tell me what it simulates and why that's the best build for it.

[Lord Liaden]

Remember the rules for acceleration and deceleration. A character needs to have at least 1 hex of space for every 5" of Movement velocity he wants to accelerate up to. So fighting within a limited space, or amidst a crowd of opponents, will really crimp a speedster's style.

Hugh Neilson is more or less correct about Move Through; there's a limit to how far a character can continue to move after performing one. And the OCV and DCV modifiers for that are pretty significant.

In general, an Area Of Effect attack is the bane of speedsters, since any DCV advantage they have due to DEX, distance from the target, or movement velocity is negated. Moreover, if your PC speedster has significant Defenses that only apply to his own Movement damage, he'll be much more vulnerable on Segments when he's not moving, if an opponent has a Phase on one of those Segments.

Most speedsters don't spend many points on raw STR, so an AOE Entangle will often immobilize them for a Phase or two without a lot of Active Points spent on it. If they're dependent on Movement to do most of their damage you can englobe them in a 1-Hex Force Wall, and they won't have enough acceleration room to break out of it. :eg:

[sbarron]

Maybe it is just a really good build, but I don't think a game this popular would be that unbalanced...HERO can be totally unbalanced. In order to simulate such a vast range of abilities, HERO has given its players the ability to create practically any power for any setting. The only thing that stands between every character being a tweaked-out munchkin build is the players themselves and the GM.

HERO is not plug and play, unfortunately. It is only marginally pre-balanced to prevent one character from dominating play. There are countless builds that exploit the system, just surf around these boards for a while and you'll find plenty. The trick is for the GM to make sure characters that will unbalance play aren't allowed into the game. It sounds like the GM dropped the ball on this one. The good news is, its an easy fix.

[Lord Liaden]

Why would there be only a slim chance that he would be attacked? Bad guys should have the ability to act tactically, and taking out someone as potentially effective as this character is sounds like a good tactical move.

As to not wanting to "pick on" a character, they chose to build the character the way they did. If the character is easily hurt, that doesn't mean you as a Ref should avoid attacking the character.



My first question, however, would be "why is he only resistant to impact when he creates the impact?" Just putting a mechanical ability down doesn't cut it. Tell me what it simulates and why that's the best build for it.

These excellent points highlighting something to keep in mind: a role playing game shouldn't just be a mechanical exercise. The internal logic of the game world has to be considered as well. Once you and your players have agreed on the rationale behind how your game world works, you as GM have a responsibility to maintain consistency and balance. A player character should not have any ability he wants just because he wants it and has the points to pay for it. He should have a rational, Special Effects-based, game-world justifiable explanation for why his character would have it. And if it turns out to be unbalanced so that his character is dominating the rest of the PCs, you have a responsibility to talk this over with him and try to negotiate a better redesign. (Discovering after the fact that a character has an unexpectedly abusive build is a very common pitfall for new HERO GMs. With a system as open-ended as this, there's lots of potential for overly effective combinations of abilities.)

OTOH, the reality of the game world also has an impact on how characters should expect to be treated by NPCs over time. If one hero has a particularly devastating attack, and this becomes known to the villains, he's sure to be specially targeted by opponents anticipating meeting him. Similarly, if he's known to be especially vulnerable to a certain type of attack, those opponents will make a point to have that attack waiting for him. That's not the GM "picking on" the player, it's just good tactical sense by the villains in the game world. Villains in comics exploit known weaknesses of heroes all the time, or concentrate on the one they consider the biggest threat. In a game this encourages the player to make an unbalanced character more balanced, either by rewriting him or by adding Experience. (That is, if the GM explains the situation in an encouraging, constructive manner.) :)

[dsatow]

My group has just recently started using the Hero system. So there are some aspects to the rules we are still hazy on. One of our group decided to play a speedster, and after a few sessions it seems that his character is far more powerful than the rest of ours with the same number of points put into the build.

He has put almost all his points into movement and damage reduction. He bought a large portion of his damage reduction with the disadvatage that it only protects him from damage dealt to himself by his move attacks. So with this build he is able to deal massive damage with his move bys and move through with no risk of hurting himself due to his damage reduction. It seems to me that we must be missing something..

Assuming a Str 10, 30" movement, 5 PD, 3/4 PD Reduction Resistant.
He should on the average do 5" knock back on a move through and take 4 stun. If your numbers do not match, then yes, you are doing some calculation wrong.

Tips on speedsters. When judging whether a speedster is abusive or not, treat them like martial artists and calculate damage as if a move through was a offensive strike and a move by a defensive strike. Also, if he didn't buy the movement as running (i.e. flight), check his turn mod. Note that advantages to flight for turn mod make it more effective and thus should count as part of the active point of the attack.

Strategies against the speedster.

The obvious delay and throw the character. A martial throw generally adds to the damage based on the velocity of the target. Also a martial throw is generally used as a sort of block against speedsters.
The martial block works just as well against speedsters as it does against other melee people.
Damage shields are useful against all sorts of melee people but in 5th the costs make thier effectiveness low. Still a 1d6 entangle damage shield can ruin a lot of weak strength melee artists plans.
A combo move in a team is great for taking out a speedster/high DCV martial artist. The first person sets up the victim a DCV reducing move such as entangle, flash, or knock back. The second person finishes the target off at the reduced DCV.
Against move through artists, bracing against knockback with strength is a common move by GMs where I played. Its basically the manuever you see in comics where the brick leans into the attack and the ground suffers beneath him.
Knockback resistance ruins many move throughs. Just 6 points can do wonders.
AoE entangle sticky is the fly paper against move by/through artists.
Remember, you can always abort to go desolid or teleport away. This is effectively useful if they are trying to do a suicide run into a wall with you in between.

[Lord Mhoram]

AoE entangle sticky is the fly paper against move by/through artists.


Terminal Velocity my speedster in our New Champions game hates this. Our second or third adventure the supervillian had a huge glue gun. Man that shut me down hard. :)

[SteveZilla]

Moreover, if your PC speedster has significant Defenses that only apply to his own Movement damage, he'll be much more vulnerable on Segments when he's not moving, if an opponent has a Phase on one of those Segments.

This sounds like you are presuming all characters come to a complete standstill in the segments between their Phases. That isn't automatically true. A Football Running Back doing an 80 yard (say 40") kickoff return isn't moving 8" on each of his 4 Phases and just standing there on the other 8 Segments.


If they're dependent on Movement to do most of their damage you can englobe them in a 1-Hex Force Wall, and they won't have enough acceleration room to break out of it. :eg:

Unless they try that "Globe of Death" motorcycle stunt to build up speed...

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/01/06/photos/xprs-sphere-dark.jpg

[Vondy]

Martial trip. :sneaky:

High velocity, no move through, no damange reduction, lost skin on pavement.

[Vondy]

That said, while the character sounds unbalanced, that's a double edged sword. The player deisgned a character with a point-intensive shtick: high velocity move throughs and the ability to withstand the damage that comes from them. He had to pay a significant chunk of points for that (and his DEX-SPD). That means those points weren't spent elsewhere and that he's vulnerable. While I might not allow the character [that's an experience and judgement issue and you learn these things the way your group is now] I don't think he's an insurmountable problem. In fact, I think he's an opportunity to teach the player not to make one-trick ponies. He's very limited and that could not only be exploited [as many have pointed out], but might find himself situationally impotent depending on what the GM decides to throw at the group. I'm not saying the player should be picked on - I'm against that - but a shrewd GM can make a point over a few months without being ruthless or mean spirited. I am a big advocate of the GM's right to say no when something abusive crops up, but sometimes the issue isn't abuse, but rather balance. In those cases, unless the player sees how they've shot themsleves in the foot on their own, it can be hard to educate without a demonstration. It may be that the demonstration should be done via an out of game test run, but it can be done in game as well if your level headed and fair-minded about it and what you want to accomplish.

[Lord Liaden]

This sounds like you are presuming all characters come to a complete standstill in the segments between their Phases. That isn't automatically true. A Football Running Back doing an 80 yard (say 40") kickoff return isn't moving 8" on each of his 4 Phases and just standing there on the other 8 Segments.

All I was presuming was that an avowed Move By/Through combat specialist, like the one described by the OP, will come to a stop after performing one of those Combat Maneuvers. Which, by the rules, is what happens. :)



Unless they try that "Globe of Death" motorcycle stunt to build up speed...

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/01/06/photos/xprs-sphere-dark.jpg

A 2-meter diameter globe wouldn't allow much running room. Besides, by the rules you can't use a Force Wall as a bridge, so it's questionable that you can run along its inner surface.

But I have no control over the generosity of any other GM. ;)

[SteveZilla]

All I was presuming was that an avowed Move By/Through combat specialist, like the one described by the OP, will come to a stop after performing one of those Combat Maneuvers. Which, by the rules, is what happens. :)

Ah. I wasn't aware of that detail of the Move By/Though rules. It must be a game-balance rule, as the person doing the Move-Though (-By?) has the option of either stopping at the point of impact or moving with the target.

If you keep moving with the target after the impact, why would one come to a stop at some possibly arbitrary point in the future?


A 2-meter diameter globe wouldn't allow much running room. Besides, by the rules you can't use a Force Wall as a bridge, so it's questionable that you can run along its inner surface.

But I have no control over the generosity of any other GM. ;)

Actually, there are rules for how much weight a horizontal Force Wall can bear -- wouldn't that be a bridge?

And if the Speedster has either Flight - Only Along A Surface or Clinging to achieve a simiar effect, why wouldn't the Force Wall count as a surface? ;)

[Hyper-Man]

...

Actually, there are rules for how much weight a horizontal Force Wall can bear -- wouldn't that be a bridge?

And if the Speedster has either Flight - Only Along A Surface or Clinging to achieve a simiar effect, why wouldn't the Force Wall count as a surface? ;)


Actually, there are rules for determining how much crushing damage an object can do by mass & gravity alone. That can then be extrapolated to determine how much weight a surface, roof or Force Wall can bear.

Steve Long's comments on the subject in the Force Wall rules seems like a GM preference rather than a reasoned response. But that's just my opinion.
:D

[Lord Liaden]

Ah. I wasn't aware of that detail of the Move By/Though rules. It must be a game-balance rule, as the person doing the Move-Though (-By?) has the option of either stopping at the point of impact or moving with the target.

If you keep moving with the target after the impact, why would one come to a stop at some possibly arbitrary point in the future?

Exhausted momentum, I always figured. Move By/Through are Combat Full Moves, with a defined beginning and end point. Even if you continue to move with the target, eventually the target comes to stop, too, when the limit of Knockback done is reached.



Actually, there are rules for how much weight a horizontal Force Wall can bear -- wouldn't that be a bridge?

And if the Speedster has either Flight - Only Along A Surface or Clinging to achieve a simiar effect, why wouldn't the Force Wall count as a surface? ;)

Again, my apologies. I don't have 5ER with more clarifications of Force Wall, and I failed to search to relevant area of the FAQ.

If you as GM would allow a character to do this in that limited space, that's your right. :)

[SteveZilla]

Exhausted momentum, I always figured. Move By/Through are Combat Full Moves, with a defined beginning and end point. Even if you continue to move with the target, eventually the target comes to stop, too, when the limit of Knockback done is reached.

It works in the vast majority of situtaions. But IMO doesn't work for vastly different sized/massed objects/combatants. Like a train vs a car (or a car vs a bicyclist). Nothing in physics makes the train stop after hitting a car...

While I can see the "cleanness" of the exhausted momentum (conservation of momentum?), that's real-world physics. Also, the characters aren't click-clacks. ;) When a billiard ball strikes another, it and the one it hits can keep moving (by using topspin).

But being that the stoppage is (IMO) a game-balance rule, I'm not advocating getting rid of it. It just had that "doesn't quite fit" feel to me. :)


Again, my apologies. I don't have 5ER with more clarifications of Force Wall, and I failed to search to relevant area of the FAQ.

If you as GM would allow a character to do this in that limited space, that's your right. :)

I don't have my 5ER with me at the moment, but I recall (hopefully correctly) that horizontal Force Walls are allowed at GM's Option, and to determine if they can support a certain weight, find the STR needed to lift that weight and apply that (possibly using the average) against the Force Wall.

Weight applied to the "top" of the Force Wall englobing something would be handled the same way IMO.

But a running round-n-round inside to build up speed -- I'd possibly allow it as a Power Skill stunt if the Player came up with it. ;) but it would partly depend upon how the Speedster's powers are built.

[Killer Shrike]

The speedster move-thru specialist is a powerful archetype in supers, but not unstoppable by any means. At a higher level there are lots of things they CANNOT do, due to the distribution of their points being so specialized. As a GM you can challenge them by producing challenges that don't easily cater to their strong points (as is true of any character). As far as in combat, there are a number of types of power builds that hose this type of character, but even characters that lack a specific power to do so can take out speedsters with good timing, tactics, and if need be teamwork.

Here are a couple of articles on tactics and action advantage that might help you in a general sense:

HERO System Tactics (http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HERO5CombatTactics.htm)


Action Advantage (http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HERO5ActionAdvantage.htm)

[AThousandYoung]

Your character is basically heavy cavalry without the mass. Depending on the specific build, spears should kill him, throws should beat him, people that fly/teleport/cling and have range beat him, pits beat him, illusionary terrain over cliffs beats him, invisibility, desolid, etc all can beat such a character.

One problem is Damage Reduction. My GM won't allow it. He says only Godzilla type characters can have it. There's a little ! next to it in the book.

[CGlied]

What about Ego attacks?