Size of the Rulebook

[Balabanto]

A number of game store owners in my area have suggested to me this.

Mike...you sort of know these guys and freelance for Digital Hero. Please tell them this:

The book needs to be smaller. There are many people who are intimidated by the rulebook the size of an algebra textbook. There needs to be a way to make things smaller, compact, and more understandable.

Another way to do this might be to release the "Hero System Player's Guide."

Then, deal with the gm's side of the rules in a larger book that also contains character generation. This is what I've been told by multiple game store owners.

[Lord Liaden]

As I understand it, current plans are to divide Sixth Edition into two books, with all the Character Generation stuff (including Powers) in one book, and the game mechanics, play examples, and prebuilds in the other. So, each book is likely to be noticeably smaller than either version of Fifth Edition. :)

In the meantime, perhaps you could suggest to those game store owners that they order a few copies of Sidekick. ;)

[Beast]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

[Lord Liaden]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

A HERO System Basic book a la Sidekick is indeed planned for Sixth Edition. On the proposed 2009 publication schedule, it's the first book due for release after 6E.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Something that can easily be left out of the new book is advice on converting and "grandfathering" characters from the previous edition. In a modern world, such information belongs on a website, not in a book.

In 5e, Talents have write-ups that tell how they are constructed from Powers. I also find that information unnecessary for most players.

I also believe that many of the Power descriptions can be shortened considerably without losing information. Two pages in 5e for e.g. Force Wall seems overly long - in 4e, it wasn't much more than one column. Extra-Dimensional Movement has also grown from less than one column to a full page (IN M&M2, it's just 11 lines!). Entangle has grown from one page to 2½ pages. These are just random samples. I wouldn't be surprised if the Power descriptions have grown again in 5er.

Detailed descriptions on how the general advantages and limitations are applied to a specific Power suggests a lack of confidence in the intelligence and imagination of the GM and the players. Does it matter that every single group plays every single Power-advantage combination the exact same way? No.

There is such a thing as too much support, I think. Players new to the system (and some that are familiar) will be put off by these lengthy descriptions: "Do I have to read all that for every single power? Forget it, let's play M&M instead!" (This is what both my old Champions groups have decided to do).

In addition to shortening the Power descriptions, some streamlining of the system will help as well. I think this can be done without losing flexibility - in some cases it may even add to flexibility. See e.g. my suggestion for a simple Power Framework (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1569328&postcount=293), which replaces Elemental Control, Multipower and Variable Power Pool and at the same time adds more flexibility than it takes away.

Armor and Force Field can easily be combined into a single Power. Killing Attacks can be an advantage on normal attacks, getting rid of a die-roll type that isn't used elsewhere in the game. Persistant and Uncontrolled are similar enough to be combined. Etc., etc.

To quote Antoine de Saint-Exupery: "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Hugh Neilson]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

Yeah, I can't see any game selling if you need two $30 books to play it. I bet no one would ever play this game:

first required book (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217367200)

second required book (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217367200)

third required book (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217507200)

No smaller intro book I can see, but you can get all three together (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/222127600) for a price only marginally greater than the sum of its parts.

The fact is that the hobby has evolved over the years, and players now do tend to value all that extra explanation. Part of this is the need to attract the CCG crowd, and they're very familiar with the concept of formal rulings as to how various combinations interact. We gamers who still believe in GM Judgment are dinosaurs to some extent.

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

You only need the character generation book to generate characters. That's true of Hero and that no-name system I doubt anyone's ever heard of that I link to above.

[Hugh Neilson]

The fact is that the hobby has evolved over the years, and players now do tend to value all that extra explanation. Part of this is the need to attract the CCG crowd, and they're very familiar with the concept of formal rulings as to how various combinations interact. We gamers who still believe in GM Judgment are dinosaurs to some extent.

ADDENDUM: We're also unlikely to be the target demographic of any "for profit" game company. Gamers who are OK with using their own group or GM judgment don't need to buy a bunch more books expanding on areas that aren't detailed in the main rules, because they can simply rely on judgment to resolve these issues. If you were a game company, would you rather target guys who can get by happily on just the core rules, or gamers that want every issue answered for them?

HINT: Which group will buy more books?

[Balabanto]

The idea of a single power framework is nice, but the truth of the matter is that the system is mathematically designed to NOT work that way. Unless Steve changes ALL the math, you will never get that system.

All of Hero is based around having offense, defense, and movement. If you have only a single framework, it is impossible to properly allocate or balance the numbers. It took me ten years to codify how I wanted the numbers balanced for Hero, in a technical, clear form, and I'm happy with it.

The thing is that the math in Hero is designed to support the frameworks that it has. If you change the frameworks, you have to change ALL the math.

[Klaus Mogensen]

The idea of a single power framework is nice, but the truth of the matter is that the system is mathematically designed to NOT work that way. Unless Steve changes ALL the math, you will never get that system.

All of Hero is based around having offense, defense, and movement. If you have only a single framework, it is impossible to properly allocate or balance the numbers. It took me ten years to codify how I wanted the numbers balanced for Hero, in a technical, clear form, and I'm happy with it.

The thing is that the math in Hero is designed to support the frameworks that it has. If you change the frameworks, you have to change ALL the math.
The single framework in question is designed to closely mimic the cost of existing frameworks. There are some differences; some things will be a bit more expensive, other things a bit cheaper, but rarely more than a few points.

I really doubt that it will require changing "all the math". If anything, it will mean that it won't take new players 10 years to codify the numbers, since there is just a single framework rather than three different ones that are used for more or less the same thing.

- Klaus

[CTaylor]

I think that complaining about book numbers and costs with how willing people are to buy D20 books by the cartload is a bit odd.

[Narthon]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I bought 5th edition books by the cartload too...

Anyway, I really like my impressive 5th edition core books. I hope 6th is just as big.

[Vondy]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge


I tend to agree. If you include all skills, powers, and frameworks in sidekick and print it you have the ideal core rule book. Examples and advice can be put in the Big Book of Long, or GMs handbook, or whatever. Its too big and too verbose at present, and two rule-books will make it harder to sell than having it all in one. Just my 2AP.

[GeekySpaz]

I think a system that actually handled this well is the 4th edition of GURPS. All character creation and a very basic version of the combat rules are in the first book which is the only book that the players need and the second book contained all the advanced rules for combat and advanced rules for character creation. Only GMs need the second book.

If all players need to buy is a single 30-40$ smaller book I think that will be less intimidating and with the advanced stuff included in a GM book could include all the options to satisfy the toolkiters out there.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I think the book can be made much thinner if the descriptions of powers and skills are made less verbiose. Powers that took half a page to explain in 4e typically takes 1-2 pages in 5e, and it's not because the Powers have changed that much.

4e: 64 Powers; 39 pages in Powers chapter.
5e: 65 Powers; 89 pages in Powers chapter.
Haven't got 5er, but I think the ratio is even worse there.

If the length of the descriptions can be cut to one-third or less, I don't mind a little elasticity in interpretation. After all, Hero should be a tool for creativity, not a barrier against it.

- Klaus

[Trebuchet]

I think the book can be made much thinner if the descriptions of powers and skills are made less verbiose. Powers that took half a page to explain in 4e typically takes 1-2 pages in 5e, and it's not because the Powers have changed that much.

4e: 64 Powers; 39 pages in Powers chapter.
5e: 65 Powers; 89 pages in Powers chapter.
Haven't got 5er, but I think the ratio is even worse there.

If the length of the descriptions can be cut to one-third or less, I don't mind a little elasticity in interpretation. After all, Hero should be a tool for creativity, not a barrier against it.I think the expanded explanations were an excellent idea; and were done primarily to answer common questions and give sufficient explanation of each Power.

They might be streamlined slightly, but cutting them by 2/3 would be another step in the wrong direction.

[Vondy]

I think the expanded explanations were an excellent idea; and were done primarily to answer common questions and give sufficient explanation of each Power.

They might be streamlined slightly, but cutting them by 2/3 would be another step in the wrong direction.

Tightening the prose would probably cut their length by about 10%. I think thats about all you could do without gutting them. On the other hand, the organization of the current version struck me as counter-intuitive. It makes sense after you work with it for a while, but out of the starting gate its a bit disorienting.

[Lord Liaden]

I think a system that actually handled this well is the 4th edition of GURPS. All character creation and a very basic version of the combat rules are in the first book which is the only book that the players need and the second book contained all the advanced rules for combat and advanced rules for character creation. Only GMs need the second book.

If all players need to buy is a single 30-40$ smaller book I think that will be less intimidating and with the advanced stuff included in a GM book could include all the options to satisfy the toolkiters out there.

When I read Steve's description of how the 6E material would be divided, it reminded me of GURPS 4E. Probably another example of the long-time synergy between these games.

[IndianaJoe3]

I can see 6e as incorporating two rulebooks - the Basic Toolkit and the Advanced Toolkit. The Basic book would cover Characteristics, non-genre-specific Skills (perhaps in a simplified fashion), the basic Talent list (without construction notes), the full Power list, and the basic lists of Advantages, Limitations, and Frameworks, and the basic list of Disadvantages. It would cover combat in enough detail to run it, and explain how to build equipment. There would also be a short section on running a campaign.

The Advanced book would expand on everything in the Basic book, incorporating some material from the Ultimate series. It would have the complete lists of Skills, Talents, Advantages, Limitations, and Disadvantages. It would explain (with math :eek:) how to build new Powers, Talents, Advantages, Limitations, and Disadvantages. The combat system would be expanded, and different methods of combat (dogfighting, "social combat", etc) explored. There would be an expanded list of equipment. Finally, there would be the full section on running a campaign, and several sample campaigns.

Continuing the toolkit metaphor, the genre and Ultimate series would be like specialized sets of tools for dealing with specific settings or types of character. The setting books function as full-blown demonstrations of how the various pieces can fit together.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I think the expanded explanations [from 4e to 5e] were an excellent idea; and were done primarily to answer common questions and give sufficient explanation of each Power.

They might be streamlined slightly, but cutting them by 2/3 would be another step in the wrong direction.

I must ask those of you who've been with Hero long enough to have played 4e: Did you generally (i.e., apart from a few exceptions) feel that the powers, advantages, limitations, and skills were grossly underexplained in 4e?

There's nothing wrong with support, but there is such as thing as too much support. As the saying goes, if you make something foolproof, only a fool will want to use it. Cutting things out in cardboard is at best tiresome, at worst patronizing.

These days, we have FAQs on webpages to handle things that a few people may have trouble understanding, but most people understand just fine. No need to burden the core book with that.

- Klaus

[Beast]

no I mean a book that is more akin to the 4e Hero system book
one that has ALL the powers,skills,perks,etc
it was less than 1/2 the BBB soft cover
now the book I would love to see would be in between the 4ed Hero system book and Sidekick revised
and be around 30$

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

[Beast]

I did not have a problem with 4ed at all
I thought the 4ed Hero system was just fine for size
I'm not against a huge book like FRed,BBB
I like it I would just prefer to have a book like 4ed HS
I feel that size would work best

I must ask those of you who've been with Hero long enough to have played 4e: Did you generally (i.e., apart from a few exceptions) feel that the powers, advantages, limitations, and skills were grossly underexplained in 4e?

There's nothing wrong with support, but there is such as thing as too much support. As the saying goes, if you make something foolproof, only a fool will want to use it. Cutting things out in cardboard is at best tiresome, at worst patronizing.

These days, we have FAQs on webpages to handle things that a few people may have trouble understanding, but most people understand just fine. No need to burden the core book with that.

- Klaus

[Lord Liaden]

I must ask those of you who've been with Hero long enough to have played 4e: Did you generally (i.e., apart from a few exceptions) feel that the powers, advantages, limitations, and skills were grossly underexplained in 4e?

There's nothing wrong with support, but there is such as thing as too much support. As the saying goes, if you make something foolproof, only a fool will want to use it. Cutting things out in cardboard is at best tiresome, at worst patronizing.

These days, we have FAQs on webpages to handle things that a few people may have trouble understanding, but most people understand just fine. No need to burden the core book with that.

- Klaus

Well, I can tell you that before Fifth Edition, and before Steve Long started answering rules questions on these forums, the hair-splitting debates among HEROphiles over precise meanings of words in the 4E rulebook, and what the "logical" interpretation of a ruling should be, were legion, interminable, and sometimes rancorous. HERO seems to draw fans who like to plum the depths of rules possibilities, and are imaginative, creative, and *ahem* opinionated. ;)

When Steve opened his Rules Questions forum, even he seem surprised by the volley of questions he received - I think he believed Fifth Edition would be clear enough to deal with most of that. Before 5E Revised came out the FAQ (something of a misnomer, since many of the questions were obscure rather than frequent) had grown to fill a 200-page PDF. Steve incorporated much of that material into 5ER, and the remaining FAQ still makes for a PDF of 100 pages. And it's still growing, albeit much more slowly now.

[Netzilla]

I must ask those of you who've been with Hero long enough to have played 4e: Did you generally (i.e., apart from a few exceptions) feel that the powers, advantages, limitations, and skills were grossly underexplained in 4e?

In the majority of cases, no. There were a handful of things that could use extra explanation (Linked, the affect of Adjustment Powers on Frameworks, etc) but not every single power/skill/advantage, no.

There's nothing wrong with support, but there is such as thing as too much support. As the saying goes, if you make something foolproof, only a fool will want to use it. Cutting things out in cardboard is at best tiresome, at worst patronizing.

These days, we have FAQs on webpages to handle things that a few people may have trouble understanding, but most people understand just fine. No need to burden the core book with that.

I think that what has happened was that Steve Long got tired of being asked various corner-case questions all of the time. The 5ed FAQ was a monster. So, he incorporated those FAQ rulings into the main rules for 5-revised. The problem was that for the majority of players out there, those corner-cases never came up and most groups could come to a good consensus. Thus, they didn't need the over-explanation of powers we get now.

Ideally, the way this would work, would be to have a way of keeping track of how often an issue comes up. If it comes up more than X times in Y months, then it's a good candidate for inclusion in the rules. Less than that, and it can safely be left out.

For the record, I would prefer that the core book come in at 250-300 pages for a price tag of $30-40 (depending on what games books are going for next year). This would reduce the 'intimidating text-book' factor and keep the buy-in cost for players equal to that of most other systems. This would help to increase the player base which benefits all of us players and DOJ both.

Keeping the size of the core book as large as it is actually scares off many potential players, no matter how many times you explain that the page count of PH + DMG + MM is easily just as bad and costs more $$. The counter-argument is that the players only need the PH. The rest is only needed by the DM (or can be a group purchase).

[Kenn]

We should remember in what field Steve received his scholastic training...

Have you ever seen a legal brief that really was brief?

[BlackSword]

When Steve opened his Rules Questions forum, even he seem surprised by the volley of questions he received - I think he believed Fifth Edition would be clear enough to deal with most of that. Before 5E Revised came out the FAQ (something of a misnomer, since many of the questions were obscure rather than frequent) had grown to fill a 200-page PDF. Steve incorporated much of that material into 5ER, and the remaining FAQ still makes for a PDF of 100 pages. And it's still growing, albeit much more slowly now.
Which pretty much proves the point that 'more' will not answer all the questions. The ruling can be defined for 999 out of 1000 instances and people will still ask (and argue) about the last 1 out of 1000 instances. Most of the time this seems less about being detail oriented and more about rules-gaming. I think Netzilla has a good handle on it, the rules are getting to the point where it is defining rule interpretations for a small percentage of players and special circumstances, and that ultra-fine detail turns away people who are not in that small category.

[Chris Goodwin]

Which pretty much proves the point that 'more' will not answer all the questions. The ruling can be defined for 999 out of 1000 instances and people will still ask (and argue) about the last 1 out of 1000 instances. Most of the time this seems less about being detail oriented and more about rules-gaming. I think Netzilla has a good handle on it, the rules are getting to the point where it is defining rule interpretations for a small percentage of players and special circumstances, and that ultra-fine detail turns away people who are not in that small category.

Sure, but that one person in 1000 will post a question here, and just because one person in 1000 doesn't understand it doesn't mean that the other 999 don't have more than 1000 opinions between them.

Shoot, any five posters here can scare up 1000 opinions between them on any given topic. (Case in point: 6th edition.)

[Klaus Mogensen]

Sure, but that one person in 1000 will post a question here, and just because one person in 1000 doesn't understand it doesn't mean that the other 999 don't have more than 1000 opinions between them.

Shoot, any five posters here can scare up 1000 opinions between them on any given topic. (Case in point: 6th edition.)
However, I don't think anybody's arguing that we should put this forum in a book. ;)

More to the point, we should remember that the book will not be made for people on this forum. We hardly represent a typical cross section of Hero players. We are the kind that likes to nitpick. I think most gamers will say: "What difference does it make? Let's just play the f*****g game!"

- Klaus

[Steve Long]

Issues of presentation and format aren't appropriate for this forum. If and when we want more feedback on these subjects, don't worry, I'll open up a thread over on Company Questions. ;)