10 points of PSs? Really?

[David_Prophet]

So the Bard package deal in Fantasy Hero suggests that he should choose 10 points of PSs pertaining to music.

Isn't that a bit much?

How many PSs does one really need in music?

Isn't PS: Musician enough? At very most, perhaps "PS: Lute Player" and "PS: Singer"?

I think 10 points is just too much.

[mayapuppies]

3pts PS: Singer 11-
5pts PS: Singer 12-
7pts PS: Singer 13-
9pts PS: Singer 14-
etc.

And that's not including the Skill Maxima option that I use and that I would never allow a single skill to cover an entire industry. So the skills above only assume that the person knows how to make a bit of coin as a singer. now we need to get PS: Singing to actually be able to use those vocal chords.

But that's just me. Using the same skill to cover all of that, you still cut through 10 points very quickly to get a decent skill level.

[ghost-angel]

Depends on how you play the game.

Some games PS: Bard is all you'll ever need.
Some games want to add some more detail and differentiate between types or styles of Bard.

And on the other hand, as mayapuppies stated - that could be 10pts in 1 Skill. They may be a Very Good Bard.

[Michael Hopcroft]

So the Bard package deal in Fantasy Hero suggests that he should choose 10 points of PSs pertaining to music.

Isn't that a bit much?

How many PSs does one really need in music?

Isn't PS: Musician enough? At very most, perhaps "PS: Lute Player" and "PS: Singer"?

I think 10 points is just too much.

The traditional medieval Bard would have a PS in singing, a PS in his chosen instrument (possibly two, like a stringed instrument and a wind one), a PS: Songwriting and KS: Current Affairs (as one of his main functions is to spread news from place to place). Not that hard to send ten points on those.

Of course, the news you got from a Bard would be filled with poetic license. That's one reason the nobility wet out of their way not to offend bards -- people could be laughing derisively at you all over the kingdom in very short order, and heaven help you if you actually harmed one or locked one up.

[David_Prophet]

Interesting. The scope of the PS skills seems to be where the question truly exists for me. I've been regarding it as a much more general skill than some of you. PS: Musician struck me as the way to go to represent the ability for the Bard to make a living playing music. As such, PS: Dancer, Poet, and Storyteller might all work too.

I'm not sure what purpose breaking it down into smaller scoped skills serves. PS: Harp, PS: Songwriting, PS: Singing... all pretty much wrap up into PS: Musician. Makes it easier to call for a roll without having to figure out which specific scope a given situation falls into. And since it's a Background Skill - I think general and easy are more desirable than specific and cumbersome.

[ghost-angel]

Generally... I would consider the following PS the most useful:

PS: Bard
PS: Dancer
PS: Musician
PS: Singer

A Bard would be the most broad, in terms of Mechanics. If a PS: Bard roll where made by 3 while they were attempting to play an instrument vs a PS: Musician who made it by 3 the Musician would have the better performance.

On the other hand, PS: Storyteller is covered by Oratory, with PS: Bard as a Complimentary Skill. (Telling the story and working the audience respectively).

Even if you distill it down to
PS: Musician
PS: Dancer

10 points could be spent very quickly (3pts to base + 2pts to bring each up to levels).

The only time 10pts becomes a lot is when you've decided bards need only PS: Bard in your campaign, in which case i'd translate a good number of the PS: points to various KS: to differentiate different types of Bards.

[Chris Goodwin]

3pts PS: Singer 11-
5pts PS: Singer 12-
7pts PS: Singer 13-
9pts PS: Singer 14-
etc.


Point of information:

2 points: PS Singer 11-
3 points: PS Singer 12-
4 points: PS Singer 13-
5 points: PS Singer 14-

Still: 10 points can be taken up by 2-3 PS's. And were I the GM, I'd say it should be 10 points worth of PS and/or KS, not just PS.

[braincraft]

It depends on how much emphasis is given to the skill. If you can reasonably expect to call for a roll on four different skills pertaining to the same field on a regular basis, and for having breadth and depth of knowledge and ability in that field to be involved and specific, and for minute details in skill selection to be usefully differentiated, then go ahead and buy PS: Singing, PS: Mandolin, PS: Flute, PS: Mongolian Poetry, PS: Hoop-Juggling...

Or, if you don't feel like making a huge to-do about it, just buy PS: Bard and one or two skill levels, and be covered.

Likewise, science skills or business skills or whatever. If it's agreed that being the best day trader on the planet requires merely that you take the PS: Stockbroker at 18-, do it and go home. If it's agreed that you'll need dozens of points of very specific KSes, PSes, and SS: Macroeconomics, expect to spend a lot of game-time on brokering stocks... or else feel very cheated when you realize that all that cost and effort was a crock to satisfy your GM's detail-fetish.

[Vondy]

3pts PS: Singer 11-
5pts PS: Singer 12-
7pts PS: Singer 13-
9pts PS: Singer 14-
etc.

And that's not including the Skill Maxima option that I use and that I would never allow a single skill to cover an entire industry. So the skills above only assume that the person knows how to make a bit of coin as a singer. now we need to get PS: Singing to actually be able to use those vocal chords.

But that's just me. Using the same skill to cover all of that, you still cut through 10 points very quickly to get a decent skill level.

This is the third time I've seen you reference your skill maxima. I bite. What is it?

[mayapuppies]

This is the third time I've seen you reference your skill maxima. I bite. What is it?
Nope. Gotta wait until the 4th time... :sneaky:


It's in the Ultimate Skill.
It works exactly as a Characteristic Maxima but for skills. I have mine set at 13-, so whenever a skill is raised beyond 13- it costs twice as much.

[mayapuppies]

Point of information:

2 points: PS Singer 11-
3 points: PS Singer 12-
4 points: PS Singer 13-
5 points: PS Singer 14-

Still: 10 points can be taken up by 2-3 PS's. And were I the GM, I'd say it should be 10 points worth of PS and/or KS, not just PS.
Sorry, I was assuming the version of the skill being based on a Characteristic. I mandate that in my games.

[Vondy]

Nope. Gotta wait until the 4th time... :sneaky:


It's in the Ultimate Skill.
It works exactly as a Characteristic Maxima but for skills. I have mine set at 13-, so whenever a skill is raised beyond 13- it costs twice as much.

Gotcha.

[Vondy]

Likewise, science skills or business skills or whatever. If it's agreed that being the best day trader on the planet requires merely that you take the PS: Stockbroker at 18-, do it and go home. If it's agreed that you'll need dozens of points of very specific KSes, PSes, and SS: Macroeconomics, expect to spend a lot of game-time on brokering stocks... or else feel very cheated when you realize that all that cost and effort was a crock to satisfy your GM's detail-fetish.

Well, I guess I'm some sort of deviant. I generally want a high Professional Skill to be butressed by a supporting knowledge, science, or adventuring skill. If its a middlin' skill roll I don't care, but once you start telling me "my character is the best [profession] in the world," then I start thinking maybe a supporting skill or two are called for. I really don't like unsupported professional skills when they weigh in at world class levels. I don't expect a laundry list of supporting skills, but I do want something there. Physician 20- probably merits at least having SS: Medicine and Pharmacology. And, if a supporting skill isn't likely to come up, I make them gimmes. Cost it at 0 and spend a hero point on the eventuality it comes up as a plot point - and odds are it will come up at least once as a plot point [in my campaigns].

[Outsider]

Has anyone else thought about handling musical skills like weapon skills?

The character buys familiarities for 1 point per instrument, or 2 points per instrument group. Some instruments are unusual enough to not fit in any group.

Example :
Common plucked Instruments
___Lute
___Banjo
___Guitar
___Harp
Common Bowed Instruments
___Violin
___Cello
___Bass
Common Percussion Instruments
___Drum
___Cymbal
___Chime/Bells
Uncommon Instruments (no group purchase allowed)
___Bagpipes
___Accordion
___Voice

(etc)


Familiarity gets him a DEX or PRE based roll, depending on the instrument. Increasing skill is also done like weapon skills, but would probably cost less unless you're playing 'Bard HERO'.

1 point : Increase skill with a single musical skill (ie clarinet only)
2 points : Increase skill with a tight musical group (ie all woodwinds)
3 points : Increase all musical skills

[mayapuppies]

Has anyone else thought about handling musical skills like weapon skills?

The character buys familiarities for 1 point per instrument, or 2 points per instrument group. Some instruments are unusual enough to not fit in any group.

Example :
Common plucked Instruments
___Lute
___Banjo
___Guitar
___Harp
Common Bowed Instruments
___Violin
___Cello
___Bass
Common Percussion Instruments
___Drum
___Cymbal
___Chime/Bells
Uncommon Instruments (no group purchase allowed)
___Bagpipes
___Accordion
___Voice

(etc)


Familiarity gets him a DEX or PRE based roll, depending on the instrument. Increasing skill is also done like weapon skills, but would probably cost less unless you're playing 'Bard HERO'.

1 point : Increase skill with a single musical skill (ie clarinet only)
2 points : Increase skill with a tight musical group (ie all woodwinds)
3 points : Increase all musical skills
Yup, covered in the Ultimate Skill.

[Vondy]

Has anyone else thought about handling musical skills like weapon skills?

The character buys familiarities for 1 point per instrument, or 2 points per instrument group. Some instruments are unusual enough to not fit in any group.

Example :
Common plucked Instruments
___Lute
___Banjo
___Guitar
___Harp
Common Bowed Instruments
___Violin
___Cello
___Bass
Common Percussion Instruments
___Drum
___Cymbal
___Chime/Bells
Uncommon Instruments (no group purchase allowed)
___Bagpipes
___Accordion
___Voice

(etc)


Familiarity gets him a DEX or PRE based roll, depending on the instrument. Increasing skill is also done like weapon skills, but would probably cost less unless you're playing 'Bard HERO'.

1 point : Increase skill with a single musical skill (ie clarinet only)
2 points : Increase skill with a tight musical group (ie all woodwinds)
3 points : Increase all musical skills

I think most skills could break down this way. Its Steve's sneaky Gurpsification of the system. Which is not to say its a bad idea. Its one of the few things about Gurps I really like. On the other hand, why not go whole hog in that regard and have it be an actual skill "musician" with categories like animal handler, gambler, and whatnot? In fact, a skill entitled whatnot might not be a bad idea. :D

[ghost-angel]

Sorry, I was assuming the version of the skill being based on a Characteristic. I mandate that in my games.

Per the RAW Characteristic Based KS/PS/etc Skills still progress at 1/+1.

If you have a house rule you need to make that more clear in your initial posts :)

[David_Prophet]

Well, I guess I'm some sort of deviant. I generally want a high Professional Skill to be butressed by a supporting knowledge, science, or adventuring skill. If its a middlin' skill roll I don't care, but once you start telling me "my character is the best [profession] in the world," then I start thinking maybe a supporting skill or two are called for. I really don't like unsupported professional skills when they weigh in at world class levels. I don't expect a laundry list of supporting skills, but I do want something there. Physician 20- probably merits at least having SS: Medicine and Pharmacology. And, if a supporting skill isn't likely to come up, I make them gimmes. Cost it at 0 and spend a hero point on the eventuality it comes up as a plot point - and odds are it will come up at least once as a plot point [in my campaigns].

This makes a lot of sense to me.

To me - the PSs are almost as much about knowing how to make a living at doing something as they are about the thing itself.

I'll use myself as an example. I'm a System Admin. This means my character sheet should contain the appropriate PS (PS: System Administrator). This skill is gonna cover general skills used in the doing of the job. Understanding what is expected of me, how to go about planning and executing the specific elements of my job, as well as some general Sys Admin skills. How to change a password. How to join a computer to a domain, etc.

However, my character sheet almost certainly lists a few other related skills. Computer Programing: Computer Networks, PCs, and Mainframes as well as some KSs to parallel those. These are the active, specific skills that I know and that I would use in "real time" when I'm trying to get something important done.

When it comes to "making a living" or "knowing about the biz", I roll my PS and might use my KS as a complimentary skill (or vice versa in some cases). When it comes to reprogramming a downed Cisco switch so that the admin staff can get their budget proposals out before the deadline on the last day... that's gonna take some Computer Programming rolls.

So, in the end, I think I'll allow that 10 points of PSs but add he can use some of them for related KSs. In the case of the Bard, Oratory would be the equivalent to Computer Programming in my example because it is the immediate, active skill that he'll be rolling to get stuff done.

[Killer Shrike]

This makes a lot of sense to me.

To me - the PSs are almost as much about knowing how to make a living at doing something as they are about the thing itself.

I'll use myself as an example. I'm a System Admin. This means my character sheet should contain the appropriate PS (PS: System Administrator). This skill is gonna cover general skills used in the doing of the job. Understanding what is expected of me, how to go about planning and executing the specific elements of my job, as well as some general Sys Admin skills. How to change a password. How to join a computer to a domain, etc.

However, my character sheet almost certainly lists a few other related skills. Computer Programing: Computer Networks, PCs, and Mainframes as well as some KSs to parallel those. These are the active, specific skills that I know and that I would use in "real time" when I'm trying to get something important done.

When it comes to "making a living" or "knowing about the biz", I roll my PS and might use my KS as a complimentary skill (or vice versa in some cases). When it comes to reprogramming a downed Cisco switch so that the admin staff can get their budget proposals out before the deadline on the last day... that's gonna take some Computer Programming rolls.

So, in the end, I think I'll allow that 10 points of PSs but add he can use some of them for related KSs. In the case of the Bard, Oratory would be the equivalent to Computer Programming in my example because it is the immediate, active skill that he'll be rolling to get stuff done.

A few points:

A) If you get right down to it, there is no true difference between KS, PS, and SS other than connotation / topical grouping. They all cover broad groups of learned / tacit / resident knowledge, covering both core competencies and also related "intangibles". So, if you want to read 10 pts of PS's as 10 pts of professional knowledge (whether that be KS PS or SS) then you are certainly well grounded in doing so. You could also translate 3 of those points as an appropriate Skill Enhancer for similar effect and not be out of line.

B) Packages aren't absolute anyway, unless you as the GM choose to "lock" or mandate them to be so. By default they are merely suggestions / examples / recommendations. The true determinant of what is and isnt important in your games is you you as the GM. If you run a skill heavy game and make nuances in skills matter then 10 points in core competency skills may be insufficient; if you run a combat heavy game where such "soft" skills are irrelevant then 10 points might be a criminal waste.

The better measure for you specifically is if you look at a character with such a package and think "Wow, this character is totally weak and will get creamed; if only I had 5 more points for at least a +1 DCV!" then you are probably more combat oriented and can safely adjust the package to 5 points in PS / KS / whatever.

On the other hand if you look at it and think "Only 10 points? That's ridiculous! Bard's should be much more knowledgeable than that or else they'll look like idiots compared to even a moderately well educated character!" then you are probably running a more skill / rp based campaign and will either want to up the points in the package or else emphasize that 10 points is the bare rock bottom entry level minimum and that any REAL Bard worth the name had better scare up some more points for such things electively.

C) You should seriously consider getting the Ultimate Skill book. It is, in my calculated and carefully considered opinion, the single best, most important supplement for the HERO System -- even more so than my looooooooooong time favorite the Ultimate Martial Artist. It has a bewildering array of extensions and improvements and in depth discussion of all things skill related, but for the current topic's purpose it has lengthy coverage on the scoping of KS / PS / SS's and detailed charts on how characters can apply similar / overlapping skills of this sort for more marginal uses -- like a character that has PS: Marine Biology using their skill at a penalty for a general Biology purpose or vice versa, and etc.

D) You may (or may not) find some use in the many Bard packages and related materials that I provide here: Bard Packages (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/professionPackage.aspx?profession=bard)

[Vondy]

A few points:

A) If you get right down to it, there is no true difference between KS, PS, and SS other than connotation / topical grouping. They all cover broad groups of learned / tacit / resident knowledge, covering both core competencies and also related "intangibles". So, if you want to read 10 pts of PS's as 10 pts of professional knowledge (whether that be KS PS or SS) then you are certainly well grounded in doing so. You could also translate 3 of those points as an appropriate Skill Enhancer for similar effect and not be out of line.


In this vein, when I write up characters these days, I drop the prefix for background skills and name it in such a way that it fits on the character's skill list in an orderly alphabetical fashion.

[mayapuppies]

Per the RAW Characteristic Based KS/PS/etc Skills still progress at 1/+1.

If you have a house rule you need to make that more clear in your initial posts :)
No house rules, just way too much reliance on Hero Designer and making the assumption that PS's had the same progression as KS's for the sake of consistency.

Need to acutally pay attention to the costs instead of my point total. LOL

[mayapuppies]

C) You should seriously consider getting the Ultimate Skill book. It is, in my calculated and carefully considered opinion, the single best, most important supplement for the HERO System -- even more so than my looooooooooong time favorite the Ultimate Martial Artist. It has a bewildering array of extensions and improvements and in depth discussion of all things skill related, but for the current topic's purpose it has lengthy coverage on the scoping of KS / PS / SS's and detailed charts on how characters can apply similar / overlapping skills of this sort for more marginal uses -- like a character that has PS: Marine Biology using their skill at a penalty for a general Biology purpose or vice versa, and etc.

As a long time KS sycophant I find that I have to agree with all of his previous points but even if I hated KS, I would second the quoted text as gospel.

[ghost-angel]

No house rules, just way too much reliance on Hero Designer and making the assumption that PS's had the same progression as KS's for the sake of consistency.

Er, they do have the same progression. Both are 1pt for +1 Skill Roll.

As for altering Package Deals; the last Bard I played I only used 5 of the suggested 10 PS points - all on PS: Bard. I felt for the game KS's worked better to represent what they could do (KS: Stories & Tales; KS: Songs were the two that they based their career off of)

[mayapuppies]

Yup, if I ever lose access to HD, I am thoroughly screwed.

[Chris Goodwin]

Sorry, I was assuming the version of the skill being based on a Characteristic. I mandate that in my games.

Which, for Background (Knowledge, Profession, Science) Skills, is 3 points for 9+(CHA/5), and 1 point for +1.

Edit: Sorry for repetition and redundancy; after I posted I realized someone else pointed this out. Still, leaving this here for completeness' sake.

[Vondy]

Which, for Background (Knowledge, Profession, Science) Skills, is 3 points for 9+(CHA/5), and 1 point for +1.

Edit: Sorry for repetition and redundancy; after I posted I realized someone else pointed this out. Still, leaving this here for completeness' sake.

The difference in costing schemas between background and regular skills has irked me for years.

[Chris Goodwin]

The difference in costing schemas between background and regular skills has irked me for years.

I wouldn't say it's ever bothered me; I've always thought of them as different types of Skills. OTOH, I'm not sure the game wouldn't be improved by settling on one schema; I prefer 2 for 11-, 3 for 9+CHA/5, 1 per +1.

[Vondy]

I wouldn't say it's ever bothered me; I've always thought of them as different types of Skills. OTOH, I'm not sure the game wouldn't be improved by settling on one schema; I prefer 2 for 11-, 3 for 9+CHA/5, 1 per +1.

That would be a good method. I have been allowing skills, be they regular or background skills, to be purchased using either method. I would prefer to streamline it. And you can set a skill maxima if you want to increase costs of skills past a certain point.

[Shaft]

10 pts in a group of skills related to one's profession is not unreasonable.

To use some non-bard equivalents, a pilot doesn't just take combat piloting: he needs navigation, PS: pilot (covers all the skill like protocol for landing at an airport, how to file a flight plan, a little bit of meteorology, etc...) and systems operations to do instrument flying. That's about 10 pts worth of skills. Some GMs would allow all of this to be covered by the combat piloting, but others would not.

A knight needs mroe than just WF: sword, WF: lance and riding. He needs High Society, KS: Chess, and a whole list of court-related skills.

A lawyer would have PS: Lawyer, KS: Type of Law (Criminal, Civil, Corporate, etc...), plus Oratory, Bureaucratics, Conversation, etc...

A black belt martial artist needs more than just the 10 pt in maneuvers: he needs the KS: martial arts plus the relevant skills such as acrobatics or breakfall as dictated by his art.

A bard's job is a variety of musical entertainment. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that the character spend 10 pts in relevant skills. It just so happens that the Bard's skills are very background skill heavy.

This is all my humble opnion of course...

[JmOz]

I wouldn't say it's ever bothered me; I've always thought of them as different types of Skills. OTOH, I'm not sure the game wouldn't be improved by settling on one schema; I prefer 2 for 11-, 3 for 9+CHA/5, 1 per +1.

I agree, except for what I mentioned in 6th about what CHAR for skills,