So, How do you take over organised crime in Huson City?

[Shoutybloke]

I want to run a Dark Champions Vigilante crime fighting campaign based on a Crimelord trying to expand his territory, but I can only think up phase one of his plan, which goes:

1a: Revenue: Go all out to get money. Hire mercenery villains to commit high revenue crimes, set up drug suppy lines ect
1b: Recuit- Hire goons. Get dagger or someone to train them.
1c: Supply: Set up smuggling routes to bring guns and equipment into the city.

But then I'm stuck. How do you move in on the lesser crimelors territories? (I already worked out you should leave Card Shark for last)
Any help would be greatly apprecieted, thanks.

[bubba smith]

pick the weakest crimelord and take over his territory first

[Shoutybloke]

Yes, but what exactly do you need to do to take over a crimelords turf? That's the problem I'm having

[L. Marcus]

Guns and ruthlessness. :bounce:

[Clonus]

Start by looking for a vacancy. Batman is a mixed curse. Sure, he's liable to take you down, but that means you can always look for an open territory where the last guys to attract his attention used to be. Then you can look for the weak mobster to move in on.

Offer to help him. He's weak and presumably losing ground unless things are quiet. If they are quiet, shoot someone important without letting anyone know there's a new player in town until later. That'll fix that. Offer, in return for a slice of his action to take down his threatening neighbour. That way, you've got both his territory and his neighbour's territory. Moving into the neighbour's territory you have two approaches. Massacres are appealing, but probably attract too much attention at this early point in the game. Instead you should rough up his street operators, show them that you are bigger and badder. At this point you want a show of force, but not an all-out war. Push them to the brink of war, then arrange a meeting between the three of you in which you negotiate new boundaries and make marketing and franchising deals that leave you on top. If you've got more firepower this gives you the upper hand, but firepower between gangs as between nations is better used as a threat than as an actuality. Cops, feds, vigilantes and bigger fish will all be attracted by the smell of blood. When a vigilante does show up however, it's important to take him or her down, particularly if they have the kind of gunslinger rep that will intimidate your colleagues because if you kill them, or even take them out of action for a while their rep becomes your rep. Eventually someone will decide enough is enough. A bigger fish will take notice of you, or a smaller one will refuse to see reason. Assuming that you aren't prepared to settle for less than the whole city, whack their top man and see if you can't deal with their successor. If they're cohesive and out to avenge their boss, it's massacre time.

[Shadowsoul]

Clonus pretty much has it down I think. Not much to add.

I'd note that criminal empires aren't just built on territory but also on who controls which rackets. So you go around a particular area convincing shop owners and the like that they should be more afraid of your gang than they are of others, when opposing enforcers turn up intimidate or beat them until they back off. A ruthless criminal might want to make a few examples of businessmen who are slow to accept the change in their 'owners', kidnapping, breaking fingers, trashing shops etc.

Recruit smaller gangs wholesale, they will of course benefit

You can also muscle in on other people's deals. Offer drug's smugglers a higher rate to sell to you or make sure that other buyers never make it to the pick up point. Bribe corrupt cops to only look the other way when presented with your operations. And buy yourself some eyes and ears in opposing organisations.

There's also that comic book staple of a new gang acquiring a new edge. Maybe assembling a new team of villains, getting hold of a new weapon or unleashing a new drug on the streets.

But inciting a war between rival gangsters is probably the best way forward and one that vigilantes are going to take the most notice of.

One more thing. The crime lord may be hard at work creating a positive public persona. Giving money to charity, work with underpriveliged kids and problem teenagers, (a good way to quietly recruit new blood as well), setting up legitimate businesses, even providing information to the police about rivals.

[Shoutybloke]

Thanks guys. that's been very helpful.
I might try adapting Retros plan from Hudson city blues so it doesn't involve a huge plot device, and use that as well.

[moquif]

Clonus has a good idea. For my own two cents I suggest making an alliance with a rival boss's lieutenant and have him wack his boss in return for running his new turf. Repeat until you have enough new bosses in your back pocket to make a move on the ones you can't take down this way.

Oh and blackmail is always useful. Even if you don't use it or reveal you have it, it's a good back up in case one of your new puppets decides to strike out on his own. Plus it's a great plot hook for the PCs. (The new capo will tell them what they want to know if they can destroy the blackmail evidence.)

[Eosin]

Take a look at the backstories of Cardshark, Speargun, El Azteca, Buckshot, & Strad. Those guys are all trying to grow and expand their business.

Obviously, Retro is a great example and as a "victim" of Hudson City Blues I can say that it was one of the most impressive gaming experiences ever... period. Funny enough, the technology is even more feasible now than it was 10 years ago. Read up on the Omega Team adventures against the Hudson City Blues module for a feel of what it can be like (see Edsel's sig line or hop over to Killer Shrikes site for the full campaign log).

[The Weapon]

Yes, but what exactly do you need to do to take over a crimelords turf? That's the problem I'm having

Go to youtube and check out the TV series "Underbelly" about the Melbourne drug wars. The king is dead, long live the king.

[assault]

A key element at all stages is: gather information.

Knowing who is who and what is what is useful.

Another thought: a lot depends on exactly which rackets you are trying to take over.

Product supply rackets like guns and drugs are different from service rackets like gambling and prostitution (although the two can overlap). In the first example, access to sources is important.

Then, of course, there are things like protection, which rely on you having nastier thugs than any would be competitors. (There are also sidelines like "standover" work, where you extort/torture money out of other criminals). You could probably lump in organised theft/bank robberies etc into this category.

[GloryFox]

Taking over something is easy once you understand the theory.

Step 1: Create a problem. This problem can be real, imagined, or theoretic.
Step 2: Create opposition to the problem. Fear, panic, mass hysteria, lack of supply, lack of guns, loosing money etc.
Step 3: Create a Solution to the problem. Higher taxes, clean supply lines, more controls into people lives, etc. (here sign your life over to me I'll help you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis

From here you should be able to find examples and arguments on how it works.

[GloryFox]

Now here is how to apply the stratagy stated above.

Find out how the mafia or "guy in charge" does illegal business.
Step 1: Create a problem for the mafia, (Batman, lack of drugs, lack of revenue from underlings, etc)
Step 2: Offer your services to solve the problem by lending "philanthropy" or donating something you can offer to solve the above problem.
Step 3: Make the mafia dependent on you for a continuing solution to the problem.

You don't have to own the mafia, just control it.

That is how you take over another mob family.

[Killer Shrike]

Take a look at the backstories of Cardshark, Speargun, El Azteca, Buckshot, & Strad. Those guys are all trying to grow and expand their business.

Obviously, Retro is a great example and as a "victim" of Hudson City Blues I can say that it was one of the most impressive gaming experiences ever... period. Funny enough, the technology is even more feasible now than it was 10 years ago. Read up on the Omega Team adventures against the Hudson City Blues module for a feel of what it can be like (see Edsel's sig line or hop over to Killer Shrikes site for the full campaign log).

Omega Team (http://www.killershrike.com/TheOmegaTeam/OmegaTeam.aspx)

[assault]

Taking over something is easy once you understand the theory.

Political ranting aside, this "theory" has never actually been put into practice.

[Teflon Billy]

In a criminal organization whoever makes the most money rises to the top.

That and whoever isn't dead.

My recommendation for a credible plan:

1. Kill. Kill people until you are on top of the heap.
2. Kill anyone that could possibly threaten your hold on power.
3. Profit!

So it basically boils down to does the group that you want to rise to the top have the grit and muscle to spill the blood needed to get there?

TB

[GloryFox]

posted by assault
Political ranting aside, this "theory" has never actually been put into practice.

Actually its used on a daily basis, ever buy insurance you did not need? Ever give up something because you thought it was bad for you only to discover there was nothing wrong with it in the first place? Ever question the motivation of popular beliefs that turned out to be false?

If you just open your eye's you can see it on a daily basis. The mafia, and other organized crime influences use this method daily. Why not use it against them?

Furthermore you can apply this process to mafia cartel drug trade. (Your goal is to control the drug trade so the mafia works for you rather than the other way around.)
Step 1: Mafia needs more more drugs to provide for a growing population.
Step 2: Decrease the supply of Drugs available for street sale or eliminate the competition so that your drug supply is the only one. (This can be done by force or by trade control at the docks. Ever wonder why the docks are so important to the mob?)
Step 3: Force dependence upon your supply, so that you control the economic forces of supply and delivery. (Never mind or dismiss the fact that your supply is so large because you stole or killed to gain control of the drug commodity in the first place.)

[GloryFox]

posted by Teflon Billy
My recommendation for a credible plan:

1. Kill. Kill people until you are on top of the heap.
2. Kill anyone that could possibly threaten your hold on power.
3. Profit!

The main problem here is that by killing the infrastructure you slow down the amount of profit you can potential earn. Instead if you can use a busniess model even if that busniess is the busniess of vice, you can maximize your profits. Killing would be for those who do not get a clue and get behind your plan as they should. Usually only as a way of influencing others.

Please don't misunderstand the mafia and organized crime does kill people but busniess & profit almost always come first.

[Eosin]

The main problem here is that by killing the infrastructure you slow down the amount of profit you can potential earn. Instead if you can use a busniess model even if that busniess is the busniess of vice, you can maximize your profits. Killing would be for those who do not get a clue and get behind your plan as they should. Usually only as a way of influencing others.

Please don't misunderstand the mafia and organized crime does kill people but busniess & profit almost always come first.

That's why Retros plan is such a flaming brilliant one. All the street vendors remain in place while the executives get 86'd or assimilated.

[GloryFox]

That's why Retros plan is such a flaming brilliant one. All the street vendors remain in place while the executives get 86'd or assimilated.

I disagree.

In a pyramid situation (most drug dealers work on a pyramid scheme) this secretive society runs on relationships. If I kill mob boss Fiorello and don't know Fiorello's contracts what's the point in killing him. However if I can alter Fiorello's supply lines I can control Fiorello and his contacts. No one died except perhaps the original supplier. Fiorello's dealers are happy and the customers are happy. This is why controlling the source is so very important.

Fiorello's pays me instead of his former boss Tony and the other boss Tony eventually goes into debt, I offer to pay off Tony's debt (philanthropy) on the condition Tony works for me now.

Anyone else see how this works?

I now control Tony, Fiorello, and anyone else in the pyramid. Anyone who disagrees ends up at the bad end of a busniess decision. :bmk:

[Eosin]

I disagree.


Just out of curiosity, have you read HC Blues?

[GloryFox]

Yes and I happen to be a big fan of Hudson City and mafia themed adversaries for years. I was heavily inspired by a D&D game I was in many years ago where the chief antagonist of the players was an organization called Evil Temps. It was one of the best well run RPG drag out Thief guild scenario's I was ever in and the G.M. used tactics such as the Hegelian dialectic as a backdrop and boy was it just bloody vicious near the end. Since that time my Mafia style games have only improved.

The busniess of vice and destroying lives is simply evil in its purest form. After that killing is easy.

[bubba smith]

Could We Get Back On Topic Please?

[Manic Typist]

Back on topic:

Make them more afraid of your wrath than anyone else's?

[Manic Typist]

So, he was making a hypothetical example. His point about how the process of fooling people is more or less valid (whether or not the example he chose to use is an actual example of the process is irrelevant), at least as much as any another abstract theory that you haven't proven yourself.

Seriously, can we move on?

[Supreme Serpent]

I don't see how discussions about Global Warming or the Hegelian Dialectic really apply to the topic at hand. Gun Control as a plot device certainly has a place in Dark Champions - but it's not really being discussed as a plot device here.

Take it all to NGD.

[bubba smith]

i'm with supreme serpent lets get back on topic please

[Basil]

There's a quote, usually (falsely) pinned on Lenin, which fits here.

"If you have five enemies, first ally yourself with four of them to destroy the one that is the most dangerous to you. Then ally yourself with three to destroy the fourth, and so on until you have only one enemy left, and you can take care of him yourself."

Should work in with criminal gangs as well as with nations. Just look out for when the alliance falls apart. :sneaky:

[Shaft]

The big thing with crime organizations is the fact that they do not all get along. Someone is always vying to get ahead by any means neccesary.

The Mafia is not united. It can be 5 or 6 different families all pretending to be united while holding daggers behind their backs looking for an opening to stab their "buddies". These fractured units have to also deal with Yakuza, Vory, Tongs, Motorcycle gangs, Posses, Mexican Mafia, corrupt cops, honest cops, unscruplulous corporations and terrorists who have managed to set up in the homeland. Factions of one group will ally with factions as the opportunities present themselves. The alliances usually turn upon themselves.

I've always liked to use the following pneumonic for criminal motivations: RICE: Resources, Idealogy/Insanity, Compromise and Ego. Resources is the first one that comes to mind: who doesn't want to have more money, power and influence? But some villains may act our of a sense of their own honour, to right a perceived wrong or to seek vengeance. Sometimes their ideals are warped. The Joker may have different reasons for taking over a territory than the Kingpin.

Compromise is what causes a lot of these unstable alliances. A corrupt CIA team may not like dealing with the Tongs to get their drugs from Asia into the US to pay for their shadow operations, but they don't ask questions. Eddie the Fist may not enjoy working with the Black Harlequin, but the Clown gets results.

Ego is a good motivator, though it may overlap with Insanity. Never underestimate the value of vanity in determing a motive. A criminal may have to end goons to a fight that will cost him dearly only to save face. He can't be perceived as weak. Also reputation is another big one: being the guy who took down the BatMan does a great deal for bargaining power the next time the bigwigs meet.

The Hudson City crime scene is already filled with great personalities. If you want to introduce one of your own, make him have clawed his way to the top of an existing group and aspire to expand it beyond the defined boundaries in the Dark Champions supplements.

[Shoutybloke]

right, thanks to everyone who helped out. I've got my plot, got some players, and I'll post how it goes in another thread.

[bubba smith]

you're quite welcome

[Roter Baron]

Stay out of the way of the Harbinger of Justice.

Try to make sure that he gets to know where all your competitors live.

After he is done with them invited him to a cup of tea.

Poison the tea, blow up the building and have 100 rough-neck mercenaries with a death with "clean up" after the explosion while you are on a plane to God-knows-where-but-noone-else-does.

That will give you a chance - or at least a headstart if the plan does not work for poisoned tea, exploding houses and 100 drug-crazed killers with machine-guns tend to irritade the Harbinger Bloke slightly ...

Just my two cents. Actually I wouldn't even jaywalk in Hudson City, less "taking over crime".