Exploding Dice

[JohnTaber]

Hi Fellow Hero Gamers: I'm working on a new FH campaign that I will be starting in roughly a year. One of the things I am thinking about is how to add exploding dice into Hero. Exploding dice are used in Savage Worlds and other systems. The idea is pretty simple in those games. Lets say you roll 1d8 damage. If you roll an 8 then you pick up the dice and roll it again. You continue until you stop rolling 8.

NOW...

With Hero you have RKA and normal attacks that damage. You also have a lot more dice for normal attacks.

Any idea how I can get this effect in Hero? :stupid:

[Shadowsoul]

I suppose you could give all attacks the advantage, + x amount of damage only when the player rolls a six or whatever.

But I'd say you have to actually adapt the rules system itself.

So with all the attacks if you roll a 6 on any of the dice then you get to re-roll that dice and add it. If that's too powerful you could say that every roll of a 1 cancels out a roll of 6.

So with a 4d6 RKA (ouch :nonp:) if you were to roll 2, 2, 5 and 6 you would be able to re-roll the six and add it to the result. If however you rolled 1, 2, 5 and 6 then you would not be able to re-roll the 6.

If you wanted to get really complicated you could allow a full re-roll if the dice come up with an average of higher than five. So you add all the numbers rolled together and divide by the number of dice, if the result is higher than 5.0 then your dice have exploded and you get a re-roll. This would make exploding dice more likely for Killing Attacks and low powered attacks however.

[BobGreenwade]

I'd treat it as a custom Disadvantage.

Building it, I'd start at +1, since rolling an additional die and adding it to the original is basically just like buying an additional die (1d6 with a +1 Advantage has the same cost as 2d6, assuming no other Advantages).

But since it only kicks in if the first die rolls a 6, it's worth one-sixth the value, or the equivalent of a -5 Limitation. There's currently no such thing as a +1/6 Advantage, but you can make it a +1/4, especially considering the fact that (if I'm understanding your description correctly) a 6 rolled on the additional die would mean yet another reroll.

So an Exploding Dice Advantage would be +1/4.

Alternately, you could just build it directly as I described: +Xd6 of damage, with a -5 Limitation Limited To 1d6 Per 6 Already Rolled On The Dice.

[Wulf]

Just take one dice, no matter how many sixes you've rolled.
If you're roll another six with that dice, re roll that dice again and add the results.
For example:
You roll a 1,3,3,5,6, you re roll the six.
You roll a 1,3,6,6,2, you re roll one of the sixes.

So you can increase some results, but keep them on a reasonable level.



Wulfi , where`s my cheese ?

[JohnTaber]

Just take one dice, no matter how many sixes you've rolled.
If you're roll another six with that dice, re roll that dice again and add the results.
For example:
You roll a 1,3,3,5,6, you re roll the six.
You roll a 1,3,6,6,2, you re roll one of the sixes.

So you can increase some results, but keep them on a reasonable level.


I am leaning towards this idea...or possibly something very close to it. Here are my reasons and my idea for a slight tweak.

I like this idea because I plan to make this a standard campaign rule. This is not something that will be a new optional advantage. I also think this option is fairest for RKA and normal attack. A 6 is less likely when less dice are rolled but if it does come up on a RKA it would be more powerful. Since this will be a standard rule for at least the good guys I also like the simplicity of this idea.

What about something like what Wolf says but what if this happens only if CERTAIN dice roll a 6. What if 1 out of every 3 dice that is rolled is a different color then if that dice only comes up a 6 you get to roll it again? For example,
Setup - 6d6. 4 of the dice are blue. 2 of the dice are red.
#1 Blue: 2,3,5,6 Red: 1,4 <- No reroll.
#2 Blue: 2,3,5,6 Red: 2,6 <- Reroll the 6.
#3 Blue: 2,3,5,6 Red: 6,6 <- Reroll BOTH 6's.

Thoughts?

[incrdbil]

I've played quite a few systens with exploding dice. About the only system where I didnt regret it was DC heroes (where it exploded on doubles..except for double 1)--mainly because it only used two dice.

With d6..those exploding results come up 1 in 6 on each dice rolled--this really makes the large dice damage dealers outclass the small and mid dice damage dealing guys. Pure big dice attacks will have an edge over smaller dice attacks with advantages.

Toss some dice, a lot, for comparison purposes, and see what it does.

My thoughts: normal dice attacks will suddenly replace killing attacks. Haymakers get a lot more popular.

[Cancer]

Exploding dice makes for substantial alteration of the probability distribution. Bob Greenwade probably has the suggestion so far that's most congruent with existing HERO rules, but I suspect that +1/4 is too cheap.

Throwing together a quick little monte carlo script:

In 10000 rolls of 3d6,
average roll was 12.653,
std dev was 5.779.
median roll was 11
there were 1438 rolls giving more than 18
largest roll was 49

So exploding dice biases the average roll up by about 2 for 3d6, and there's a substantial tail to very large values. That's more than a half die of damage; frankly, I'd probably price "Exploding Dice" as a +1 or maybe more Advantage, and I'd need to think carefully whether I'd allow it at all.

[teh bunneh]

Shouldn't be too hard. I'd take a fairly large die (at least 16mm). You're going to want to use a solid color, not a crystal or even one of those neat speckled or marbled dice, for reasons which will become apparent later.

Use a dremmel to drill a hole into the center of the die and hollow it out as much as you can. I would recommend drilling directly through one of the pips (probably the pip in the center of the "5"). If you can't get the hole big enough (there are specialized tools to make a larger internal hole, but they aren't easy to find), you can drill through several faces. Drill it as deep as you can, but don't drill all the way through!

Now take a black cat (you've still got some left over from last July 4, right?), and carefully cut it open. Pour out the silver powder into a small container. Make sure you save the fuse!

Now, using a tiny funnel, pour the powder into the hollow die. Insert the fuse as deeply as you can into the powder. Clean off any powder residue left on the surface of the die. Seal the hole with some melted candle wax of the same color as the die, then sand the wax down so it's even with the face of the die. Be careful not to get wax on the fuse. Trim the fuse so it doesn't stick out more than... oh, about 1cm from the die should be about enough.

And voila! You've got your exploding dice! :bounce:








What? What's everyone looking at me like that for? :confused:

[JohnTaber]

I've played quite a few systens with exploding dice. About the only system where I didnt regret it was DC heroes (where it exploded on doubles..except for double 1)--mainly because it only used two dice.

With d6..those exploding results come up 1 in 6 on each dice rolled--this really makes the large dice damage dealers outclass the small and mid dice damage dealing guys. Pure big dice attacks will have an edge over smaller dice attacks with advantages.

Toss some dice, a lot, for comparison purposes, and see what it does.

My thoughts: normal dice attacks will suddenly replace killing attacks. Haymakers get a lot more popular.

Thanks for your comment on liking exploding dice. I have NOT played a lot of systems with exploding dice but I thought that feel would be fun for this campaign.

Good idea to toss lots of dice to determine the impact. Note that I am not concerned about tossing a lot of dice because this is for FH. I'm expecting lower dice pools. Yeah a brute with a club can dish out a fair amount of normal dice but I think that is likely going to be the exception not the rule.

That did make me think of something though...with small dice pools would I always want exploding? For example, what if I am throwing a 1.5d6 KA which might be pretty normal for FH. Should the whole d6 explode? My instinct is yeah but I need to play with it a bit...that might be too gross. Humm...

Any other thoughts? Great stuff folks! :thumbup:

PS Love your Petrelli avatar BTW.

[BobGreenwade]

Oops... I said "custom Disadvantage" earlier, and I meant "custom Advantage." But hopefully you figured that out already.

[voodoo54]

I thought you were talking about something you buy at a gag store.:D

[The Weapon]

I'd say multiple 8- activation rolls as the odds of getting 8- are approximately the same as getting 6 on a d6. Don't actually roll the activation roll just use the rolling 6 on the damage roll. e.g.
Base/Real Description
15/15 1d6 RKA
15/5 1d6 RKA act. roll 8- (-2)
15/3 1d6 RKA act. roll (SFX shares roll with above) 8-, 2nd act. roll 8- (-4)
15/2 1d6 RKA act. roll (SFX shares roll first roll above) 8-, 2nd act. roll 8-
(SFX shares roll 2nd roll) act. roll 8- (-6)
etc.

[Roter Baron]

Add some Plastique to the dice.

And hide under the tabel while rolling.

Make sure that you game in somebody else's house and that the tabel is made of steel or granite.

Another question: What do you need "exploding dice" for in HERO? Just an optional rule for crits? Or what real world effect are you trying to simulate? Or is it just for some unstable magic?

[Wulf]

Add some Plastique to the dice.

And hide under the tabel while rolling.

Make sure that you game in somebody else's house and that the tabel is made of steel or granite.

Gotta try this one :eg:
So where did I leave my portable steelplate


Wulfi, perception roll failed

[Maur]

While nitroglycerin would be that touchy, plastique is very safe and stable. You can beat on it with a hammer and not set it off.

[JohnTaber]

Another question: What do you need "exploding dice" for in HERO? Just an optional rule for crits? Or what real world effect are you trying to simulate? Or is it just for some unstable magic?

Hi Roter Baron: Good question. :)

Essentially I want a more dramatic feel to the campaign where chance plays a larger role. By adding exploding dice I'm hoping to capture a wilder feel without greatly altering the existing damage/defense balance on every roll. For example, I don't want to simply give the PC an extra 2 damage classes or something...I want it to be given by chance.

There is also a concept for a magic system that I want to pair with exploding dice that will strongly back up this wilder feel...watch for another post on that topic soon. ;)

[Gary]

I'd treat it as a custom Disadvantage.

Building it, I'd start at +1, since rolling an additional die and adding it to the original is basically just like buying an additional die (1d6 with a +1 Advantage has the same cost as 2d6, assuming no other Advantages).

But since it only kicks in if the first die rolls a 6, it's worth one-sixth the value, or the equivalent of a -5 Limitation. There's currently no such thing as a +1/6 Advantage, but you can make it a +1/4, especially considering the fact that (if I'm understanding your description correctly) a 6 rolled on the additional die would mean yet another reroll.

So an Exploding Dice Advantage would be +1/4.

Alternately, you could just build it directly as I described: +Xd6 of damage, with a -5 Limitation Limited To 1d6 Per 6 Already Rolled On The Dice.

It'd be worth more than +1/4. Remember in Hero terms, the last dice in any attack are generally way more valuable than the first few dice. That's because the first few dice are soaked up by defenses. If the target has 20 defenses for example, then any dice after the first 6 or 7 are essentially NND dice.

I'd say a +1/2 or possibly +3/4 Advantage. I'd have to do some calculations to determine the proper pricing.

[Gary]

I just did a quick calculation. 1 'exploding die' averages 4.2 per d6. This is 20% more damage with a significantly greater chance of a "home run" roll.

Based on this, +1/4 might not be out of line after all. Although it gets troublesome like many Hero Advantages if you set it at +1/4 and then you stick other Advantages on the attack.

[LordGhee]

Bunny:
I tried cutting open a black cat but I did not get silver powder. . . . . .


"snicker"
waiting for Treb to faint

Lord Ghee

[teh bunneh]

Bunny:
I tried cutting open a black cat but I did not get silver powder. . . . . .
"snicker"

A "black cat" firecracker, not a ...

:idjit:

Hoo boy. You are in trouble now. :nonp:





;)

[incrdbil]

Essentially I want a more dramatic feel to the campaign where chance plays a larger role. By adding exploding dice I'm hoping to capture a wilder feel without greatly altering the existing damage/defense balance on every roll.

Perhaps you might want to look at adding damage Classes based on the to hit roll. +1 DC for every 2 or three points the roll is made by, for example.

That reduces the amount of time you have to spend rolling dice, but still adds in that chance factor, and it doesnt favor large buckets of normal dice that much over small numbers of KA dice.

[JohnTaber]

Perhaps you might want to look at adding damage Classes based on the to hit roll. +1 DC for every 2 or three points the roll is made by, for example.

That reduces the amount of time you have to spend rolling dice, but still adds in that chance factor, and it doesnt favor large buckets of normal dice that much over small numbers of KA dice.

Wow...that is an interesting idea and kinda puts weapon users on par with what I am planning for the magic system. See the "Spirit Whim" thread. Drat...now which idea do I use... :thumbup:

[Roter Baron]

Hi Roter Baron: Good question. :)

Essentially I want a more dramatic feel to the campaign where chance plays a larger role. By adding exploding dice I'm hoping to capture a wilder feel without greatly altering the existing damage/defense balance on every roll. For example, I don't want to simply give the PC an extra 2 damage classes or something...I want it to be given by chance.

There is also a concept for a magic system that I want to pair with exploding dice that will strongly back up this wilder feel...watch for another post on that topic soon. ;)

I see. But if it is the "way of the world" and thought to capture a certain feeling in the campaign I would just say:

"That's it, folks! In Whoop-Ass-and-Watch-dat-Spell!-World, we got us some exploding dice. Comes with a wave and a shake and a I-say-so - no point breaks (get off my back, you moochers) or extra costs either( yes, me generous). - Got that? Then let the table shake with explosions!"

Don't waste time with calculating extra limitations or advantages. ;)

Or is this a hint that you want your name into 6th edition as the "inventor of exploding dice in HERO". If so - CONTINUE! :D :thumbup: :king:

[JohnTaber]

I see. But if it is the "way of the world" and thought to capture a certain feeling in the campaign I would just say:

"That's it, folks! In Whoop-Ass-and-Watch-dat-Spell!-World, we got us some exploding dice. Comes with a wave and a shake and a I-say-so - no point breaks (get off my back, you moochers) or extra costs either( yes, me generous). - Got that? Then let the table shake with explosions!"

Don't waste time with calculating extra limitations or advantages. ;)

Or is this a hint that you want your name into 6th edition as the "inventor of exploding dice in HERO". If so - CONTINUE! :D :thumbup: :king:

I guess I was not clear enough in my initial post...this is exactly what I intend to do...I really don't care about a limitation value. I plan to consider this a campaign rule. I just wanted to figure out how to impliment it. I think people misread the tag..."How Do I Build It"...my fault for choosing that one. :)

[Doc Democracy]

Hmmm.

If it is simply a matter of implementation then you are looking for a way to make the God of Chance intervene.

Lots of players dont like wild dice (as they were called in D6 Star Wars) possibly because they throw up lots of wild events, things that you cannot plan for and, like any other critical system, work against PCs in the long term if everyone has access to them.

Now. If the system has no drawbacks (such as lots of ones cause bad things to happen) and only the heroes and named villains can explode their dice then I think the players are more likely to buy into it - no-one wants their Hero PC taken down by a rock thrown by an exceptionally lucky peasant....

I would be careful in the implementation that it doesn't happen too often that it becomes just another part of rolling damage - it should be special and deliberate (though the effects would be open to chance).

What about having the PCs have a 'free' disad of 'Noticed by the Gods'. This disad would allow them to invoke the name of the God of Chance and allow him to influence the results of their contest.

So the PC would normally roll 1D6K for his dagger. He invokes the God of Chance when he hits. In a competitive system then he would roll 1 black dice and one white dice - subtract the black from the white to get the number to add to the BODY damage. In a non-competive system roll a normal damage dice (1-2 BODY) if the BODY damage is a 6 and add the normal die's BODY as killing.

For a 2D6 attack roll two dice rather than one as above, for 3D6 roll 3 etc etc

The non-competitive system is obviously as likely to be bad for the invoker as it is good and while as the dice number increases the extremes get larger they also become less likely to occur.

You may also want to use the competitive system as a way of using 'bennies'. If you disburse bennies for good playing then those bennies can be used to remove black dice from the competitive system...


Doc

[JohnTaber]

Hi Doc: Nice thread. :)

More data that is influencing this...from a campaign that I am running now...

I am currently using a meta gaming bennie concept similar to fan mail from Primetime Adventures in a Fudge based Victorian horror game. For some reason my players are having a hard time getting into the meta gaming mechanic. Thus my thought is to avoid a mechanic of any kind that relies on judgements of other PC actions. Yours idea do not do this but I wanted to give mpore background.

Lots of players dont like wild dice (as they were called in D6 Star Wars) possibly because they throw up lots of wild events, things that you cannot plan for and, like any other critical system, work against PCs in the long term if everyone has access to them.

Now. If the system has no drawbacks (such as lots of ones cause bad things to happen) and only the heroes and named villains can explode their dice then I think the players are more likely to buy into it - no-one wants their Hero PC taken down by a rock thrown by an exceptionally lucky peasant....

I am planning the later. There would essentially be no drawback AND it would be a mechanic only for the PC and key NPC who are "blessed by spirits".


I would be careful in the implementation that it doesn't happen too often that it becomes just another part of rolling damage - it should be special and deliberate (though the effects would be open to chance).

Why should I be careful making this just another part of rolling damage? What is the drawback? To me is seems like this would be an advantage...

Again...great reply...thanks! :thumbup:

[Doc Democracy]

Why should I be careful making this just another part of rolling damage? What is the drawback? To me is seems like this would be an advantage...

Again...great reply...thanks! :thumbup:

I was talking about how the players relate to the mechanic rather than the practicalities of it.

If it is something that is invoked and special to the player then it is more likely to invoke some special feel for the game as well. So if you are going to add to the administration side of the game you want to ensure it ties in with the feel of the game thus justifying the extra bit of admin and, hopefully, making the players look forward to invoking it rather than thinking that this just makes a long combat system that bit longer.

:)

Did I explain that clearly - just dashing out of the office....

Doc

[JohnTaber]

I was talking about how the players relate to the mechanic rather than the practicalities of it.

If it is something that is invoked and special to the player then it is more likely to invoke some special feel for the game as well. So if you are going to add to the administration side of the game you want to ensure it ties in with the feel of the game thus justifying the extra bit of admin and, hopefully, making the players look forward to invoking it rather than thinking that this just makes a long combat system that bit longer.

:)

Did I explain that clearly - just dashing out of the office....

Doc

Gotcha. Now I understand. Good thought...hummm...I'll have to decide how I want to proceed. Thanks again! :)