How to quantify a super's superiority over normals?

[Trebuchet]

It's easy to calculate how much stronger (STR) or faster (SPD) a superhuman is than a normal with stats in the 8-10 range, but how do you calculate how much better a superhuman's abilities are when the ability is more esoteric? For example, how much better are the reflexes of a super with a 23 DEX than a normal human's with an 8 DEX? Is it as simple as 23/8 = 2.87, and therefore the superhuman's reflexes are 287% better than normal? Is a superhero with a 20 EGO possessed of more than twice as much willpower as a normal?

How would you calculate such a thing? Any ideas?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
It's easy to calculate how much stronger (STR) or faster (SPD) a superhuman is than a normal with stats in the 8-10 range, but how do you calculate how much better a superhuman's abilities are when the ability is more esoteric? For example, how much better are the reflexes of a super with a 23 DEX than a normal human's with an 8 DEX? Is it as simple as 23/8 = 2.87, and therefore the superhuman's reflexes are 287% better than normal? Is a superhero with a 20 EGO possessed of more than twice as much willpower as a normal?

How would you calculate such a thing? Any ideas?

The structure is logarithmic. Every 5 points reflects s doubling of the attribute. Your 23 DEX character is 15 points higher than the 8 average, so he's 8 times better.

This is easiest viewed in the STR charts where each 5 points STR doubles lifting capacity.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
The structure is logarithmic. Every 5 points reflects s doubling of the attribute. Your 23 DEX character is 15 points higher than the 8 average, so he's 8 times better.

This is easiest viewed in the STR charts where each 5 points STR doubles lifting capacity. Each +5 STR does not, however, double leaping or throwing distance. So on that basis alone I have to at least question that rationale. Nor have I ever seen any other place in HERO where 5 points represents "twice as good" except the STR chart. 5 points (23 DEX vs 18 DEX, for instance) certainly doesn't double one's percentage chance of performing a DEX-based task successfully. It only improves it incrementally. So that method seems to fall short.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Each +5 STR does not, however, double leaping or throwing distance. So on that basis alone I have to at least question that rationale. Nor have I ever seen any other place in HERO where 5 points represents "twice as good" except the STR chart. 5 points (23 DEX vs 18 DEX, for instance) certainly doesn't double one's percentage chance of performing a DEX-based task successfully. It only improves it incrementally. So that method seems to fall short.

Double the Duplicates, double the Summoned creatures, double the vehicles, double the Followers, double the non-combat velocity, double the different Multiforms, double the number of identical systems/foci (controversial), double the Change Environment area, double the folks in the Mind Link, double the Clairsentience range, double the Density Increase increased density, double the Teleport or EDM extra mass, double the Growth mass, double the (non-combat) Stretching stretching.

It's not an unusual mechanic.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Jeff
Double the Duplicates, double the Summoned creatures, double the vehicles, double the Followers, double the non-combat velocity, double the different Multiforms, double the number of identical systems/foci (controversial), double the Change Environment area, double the folks in the Mind Link, double the Clairsentience range, double the Density Increase increased density, double the Teleport or EDM extra mass, double the Growth mass, double the (non-combat) Stretching stretching.

It's not an unusual mechanic. Yes, but every one of those examples you cited were for 5 Active Points. 5 more DEX isn't 5 Active Points, it's 15. 5 more Active Points isn't even 1 more SPD, even though a 3 SPD character is 50% faster than a 2 SPD one but a 4 SPD character is only 33% faster than a 3 SPD. So it's not internally consistent.

Based on that scale, the difference between an 8 and a 23 DEX is 128 times, which I have a hard time buying, particularly since it's only a +3 to any DEX-based skill. Lots of good athletes would have DEX in the 20s, but I don't by that they are 100 times more dexterous.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Yes, but every one of those examples you cited were for 5 Active Points. 5 more DEX isn't 5 Active Points, it's 15. 5 more Active Points isn't even 1 more SPD, even though a 3 SPD character is 50% faster than a 2 SPD one but a 4 SPD character is only 33% faster than a 3 SPD. So it's not internally consistent.

Based on that scale, the difference between an 8 and a 23 DEX is 128 times, which I have a hard time buying, particularly since it's only a +3 to any DEX-based skill. Lots of good athletes would have DEX in the 20s, but I don't by that they are 100 times more dexterous.

Okay. What does "100 times more dexterous" mean? It looks to me like a place not to expect satisfying quantification.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Yes, but every one of those examples you cited were for 5 Active Points. 5 more DEX isn't 5 Active Points, it's 15. 5 more Active Points isn't even 1 more SPD, even though a 3 SPD character is 50% faster than a 2 SPD one but a 4 SPD character is only 33% faster than a 3 SPD. So it's not internally consistent.

Based on that scale, the difference between an 8 and a 23 DEX is 128 times, which I have a hard time buying, particularly since it's only a +3 to any DEX-based skill. Lots of good athletes would have DEX in the 20s, but I don't by that they are 100 times more dexterous.

The difference between 8 and 23 is 8 times (3 increases of 5 characteristic points each)

Figured characteristics generally don't follow the same rules (I'd consider 3.5 PD/ED to be doubled as it offsets 1 more die, 5 points of STR or EB).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Jeff
Okay. What does "100 times more dexterous" mean? It looks to me like a place not to expect satisfying quantification.

A difference of about 33 DEX points (2x2x2x2x2x2 = 64; 2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 128), so a spectacular difference - need a 41 DEX. Say reaction times reduced to 1% of the base dexterity?

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Nor have I ever seen any other place in HERO where 5 points represents "twice as good" except the STR chart.

Hmmm. Interesting. . . this topic of conservation sounds somehow familiar.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I ever seen any other place in HERO where 5 points represents "twice as good" except the STR chart. 5 points (23 DEX vs 18 DEX, for

An analysis I did of KE of guns vs. DC (in 4E) showed a very close correlation to +1 DC = x2 muzzle energy.

As Warp9 said - this has already been discussed in detail. Suffice it to say that the +5 AP = x2 RW effect is well established.

BTW, +5 STR IS +5 AP. Unless you put an Advantage on STR (very unusual).

[J4y]

For example, how much better are the reflexes of a super with a 23 DEX than a normal human's with an 8 DEX?

23 dex is a 14 roll, 8 dex is 11. For doing things of "normal" difficulty 8 dex is 62.5%, 23 dex is 90.7%. So for "normal" tasks 23 dex is about 150% as good as 8 dex... Obviously with the way 3d6 work, the harder the task the better the 23 dex will be compared to the 8 dex. Beating the result by 5 for instance is about 3 times more likely with 23 dex as it is for 8 dex. :D

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
A difference of about 33 DEX points (2x2x2x2x2x2 = 64; 2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 128), so a spectacular difference - need a 41 DEX. Say reaction times reduced to 1% of the base dexterity? I actually have a character with a 43 DEX. Are you saying her reflexes are better than 128 times superior to "normal"? Certainly that doesn't work out in play; while she is hard to hit she still gets tagged on a fairly regular basis even with hand-to-hand attacks by villains with DEXs of 23.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
The difference between 8 and 23 is 8 times (3 increases of 5 characteristic points each)The actual difference between a DEX of 8 and 23 is 15 DEX points, or 45 Active Points (23 - 8 = 15; 15 x 3 = 45; 45 / 5 = 9 doublings). That's 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2=512; which by your method equals twice as good for each 5 Active Points.

I'm not prepared to say that a 23 DEX character's reflexes are 512 times (51200%) better than a normal humans's. Are you? :eek:

[Osprey]

It was Trebuchet who insisted that ACTIVE points be used for calculating.
and it works for powers.

But with Characteristics: I say use the 2xBetter for 5 points rule, but calculate using the actual CHA points.
(a 20 DEX is 8xbetter that a 10 DEX.)

This only applies to the Primary CHA.
I would use simple math for the figured stats.
(6 SPD is twice better than 3)

That's how i'm explaining it to my kids:D

[Keneton]

Well this might be opening another can of worms, but is Dex just a measure of reflexes or is it something much more. Is it raw combat ability, agility, flexibility. . .?

Comparing such things to the real world for strength ie lifting ability seems realtively mundane, but for characteristics like Int, Dex, Con, and or Body things aren't so clear cut.

Example: Psiren, one of my mentalist charcters is a small 130# woman. Although slight as compared to the team martial artist her Body of 15 is equal to his. Her Body represent will to live as she has a huge ego wheras his is conditioning and muscle.

For special effects purposes it is best to describe a characters reflexes and speed as beeing multiples of something by power OUTPUT. Then equate Special Effects to determine a ratio. This is genrally done for favor anyways, so a hard and fast rule like x2 for 5 is not totally relevant (even though in most cases marginally accurate). An example of this sort of thing is thata 6 Speed guy with a 30 Dex would appear to a normal to be at least 3 times faster than normal with unbelievable refles far exceeding those possesd by any known athlete by a factor of 2 to 4.



:)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I actually have a character with a 43 DEX. Are you saying her reflexes are better than 128 times superior to "normal"? Certainly that doesn't work out in play; while she is hard to hit she still gets tagged on a fairly regular basis even with hand-to-hand attacks by villains with DEXs of 23.

Exactly 128 times better (2 to the 7th power; 43 = 8 + (7x5)).

But 16 times better than a 23 DEX character.

Absent levels, etc. your DCV is 14, and the 23 DEX character has an 8. That means they need a 3 to hit you. If they are able to hit the character with 16 times greater reaction speed with any consistency, they must have an edge offsetting the diference in reaction time (such as skill levels which can be seen as either anticipating your use of superior reaction time or as improving their reaction time with that attack when they work at it (ie place levels in OCV)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
The actual difference between a DEX of 8 and 23 is 15 DEX points, or 45 Active Points (23 - 8 = 15; 15 x 3 = 45; 45 / 5 = 9 doublings). That's 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2=512; which by your method equals twice as good for each 5 Active Points.

I'm not prepared to say that a 23 DEX character's reflexes are 512 times (51200%) better than a normal humans's. Are you? :eek:

Not ACTIVE points, DEX points. It costs more to be twice as fast than it does to be twice as strong. It costs less to be twice as good looking.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Osprey
But with Characteristics: I say use the 2xBetter for 5 points rule, but calculate using the actual CHA points.
(a 20 DEX is 8xbetter that a 10 DEX.)

This only applies to the Primary CHA.
I would use simple math for the figured stats.
(6 SPD is twice better than 3)

That's how i'm explaining it to my kids:D

Um...20 is 4x better.

And you're right - it doesn't work for figured char.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by J4y
For example, how much better are the reflexes of a super with a 23 DEX than a normal human's with an 8 DEX?

23 dex is a 14 roll, 8 dex is 11. For doing things of "normal" difficulty 8 dex is 62.5%, 23 dex is 90.7%. So for "normal" tasks 23 dex is about 150% as good as 8 dex... Obviously with the way 3d6 work, the harder the task the better the 23 dex will be compared to the 8 dex. Beating the result by 5 for instance is about 3 times more likely with 23 dex as it is for 8 dex. :D

Using chance of success, your results will depend first on how hard the task is and also on whether you believe "improvement" is reflected by better success chances or lower failure risk.

For an easy task (DEX roll +5), 8 DEX succeeds 95.37% and 23 succeeds 99.54%. 23 makes success marginally more likely. Failure, however, is 87 times more likely at 8 DEX, so arguiably the 15 point spread is an 87x improvement. Is it a slight .05x better, or 87 times? Make it -5, and success chances change radically, but failure chances do not.

This comes down to the law of diminishing returns. Success or failure at any given task involves more than "how much better is the stat". Once you have a certain reaction time, being faster no longer improves your chance of success at any given task, or improves it only marginally. Other factors are always relevant, right down to blind luck (no luck factor? Get rid of rolls!).

The doubling per 5 CHAR points is a nice elegant feature for a system where some characters are hundreds, or even thousands, of times better than the norm. No "8,000 STR" required!

[It was quite interesting when Mayfair introduced a log scale for their DC Heroes game some years ago and the discussion read like they had discovered fire or nuclear power. Champions had been using the same thing for years, with finer gradations since Mayfair used +1 stat = twice as good.]

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Osprey
It was Trebuchet who insisted that ACTIVE points be used for calculating. and it works for powers.Actually, it was Jeff who stated that 5 Active Points = Twice as good with his examples of same. I haven't advocated any method. Heck, if I knew a good method I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. But my inherent conservatism makes me wary of methods that don't seem to be reflected in actual game play, and I simply don't see enough performance difference between an 18 DEX and a 33 DEX for me to easily accept that a 33 DEX is 32 times more agile than an 18. It just doesn't seem to pan out in actual play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
But my inherent conservatism makes me wary of methods that don't seem to be reflected in actual game play, and I simply don't see enough performance difference between an 18 DEX and a 33 DEX for me to easily accept that a 33 DEX is 32 times more agile than an 18. It just doesn't seem to pan out in actual play.

The catch is that you're trying to measure something pretty intangible through indirect methods. I approach this from the other aspect. I know 5 STR makes you twice as strong because the "dead lift" doubles. Similarly, based on "5 points doubles", I would rule that +5 DEX halves reaction time. The game rules tell us how much impact that has on ability to perform certain skills, and on combat. The "+5 CHAR doubles" is simply convenient for the types of comparisons you want to make - "when is someone twice, 10 times, 100 times as good as someone else". This was the official measure in prior editions; I'm not sure it's still in place officially in FREd.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
The catch is that you're trying to measure something pretty intangible through indirect methods. I approach this from the other aspect. I know 5 STR makes you twice as strong because the "dead lift" doubles. Similarly, based on "5 points doubles", I would rule that +5 DEX halves reaction time. The game rules tell us how much impact that has on ability to perform certain skills, and on combat. The "+5 CHAR doubles" is simply convenient for the types of comparisons you want to make - "when is someone twice, 10 times, 100 times as good as someone else". This was the official measure in prior editions; I'm not sure it's still in place officially in FREd. I'm not faulting your logic or reasoning; I just happen to disagree with it. :)

The problem is that there is no "reaction time" in the game, there is DEX and SPD. Nor are there objective measurements for agility, comeliness, etc. It seems to come down to "How much prettier is Kathy Ireland than Elle McPherson?" If one of those supermodels has a COM of 24 and the other has a 20, then it appears the correct answer is "Four more COM points prettier," which doesn't really tell you anything.

What I'm looking for is a non-game mechanics way to describe a Champions character to someone who doesn't play HERO. If you had to describe Menton's willpower to your dad, how would you explain a 30 EGO in terms a non-RGPer would understand?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
What I'm looking for is a non-game mechanics way to describe a Champions character to someone who doesn't play HERO. If you had to describe Menton's willpower to your dad, how would you explain a 30 EGO in terms a non-RGPer would understand?

Well, since I no longer have to provide any explanation in terms of game mechanics, he's either "vastly more strong-willed and mentally tough than a normal person" or he's "over 20 times as strong-willed and mentally tough than a normal person"

I'd use the former, as we have no measure for strength of will in the real world anyway. The "+5 doubles" measure is convenient shorthand to allow characters to be significantly "better" in abstract terms without 4 digit stats.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Well, since I no longer have to provide any explanation in terms of game mechanics, he's either "vastly more strong-willed and mentally tough than a normal person" or he's "over 20 times as strong-willed and mentally tough than a normal person"

I'd use the former, as we have no measure for strength of will in the real world anyway. The "+5 doubles" measure is convenient shorthand to allow characters to be significantly "better" in abstract terms without 4 digit stats. That seems reasonable.

And I do appreciate your input. It was thoughtful and intelligent, even if I didn't agree with all of it. :)

[Osprey]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Um...20 is 4x better.

And you're right - it doesn't work for figured char.

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Actually, it was Jeff who stated that 5 Active Points = Twice as good with his examples of same. I haven't advocated any method.
I stand corrected on both counts!


Originally posted by Trebuchet
Heck, if I knew a good method I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. But my inherent conservatism makes me wary of methods that don't seem to be reflected in actual game play, and I simply don't see enough performance difference between an 18 DEX and a 33 DEX for me to easily accept that a 33 DEX is 32 times more agile than an 18. It just doesn't seem to pan out in actual play.

How so?
It seems to work in my view. Where do you see a problem?

--------------------------------------------------------
If it wasn't for Hero, I wouldn't do any math :D

[Osprey]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
The problem is that there is no "reaction time" in the game, there is DEX and SPD.
Sure there is!
Say a character is taking a Reaction Test.
1. A system shows something for him to react to. (Perception roll).
2. He reacts by quickly pressing a button (Dex Roll).
The system computes his reaction time.

Nor are there objective measurements for agility It's Called "DEX" :)


What I'm looking for is a non-game mechanics way to describe a Champions character to someone who doesn't play HERO. If you had to describe Menton's willpower to your dad, how would you explain a 30 EGO in terms a non-RGPer would understand?

OH! NOW I GET IT!!!

Well, you could put a normal and your hero through a series of tests (like above, or olympic trials, etc)
But that would take a while.

Someone with a LOT of time on there hands could do this, and form a chart that relates to stats...

[TaxiMan]

DEX's primary use to to determine a character's CV. So, I figured "let 'em duke it out". "Normal" in all respects except DEX (using 10 for all other base characteristics), here's how two combatants fare in a slug-fest. Now, this is REALLY simplified, to do it right you'd do a Monte-Carlo simulation (easy enough, but this is easier).

When punching, a 10 STR hit does 2d6 STUN, we'll say it's always 7. PD is 2, so 5 STUN gets through on each punch. A Normal has 20 STUN, so he's out after 4 punches get through (I'm ignoring REC - told you it was simplified!). Here's how long it takes for a high-DEX fighter to KO a Normal, and how much damage he can expect from the generic 10-DEX Normal during a no-recoveries fight.

Entries are of this format
DEX, Time to KO (seconds), Damage Taken During Fight

10, 38 seconds, 20 STUN (! double KO)
11, 32, 14 (he's hurt, but still standing)
12, 32, 14
13, 32, 14
14, 29, 9
15, 29, 9
16, 29, 9
17, 26, 6
18, 26, 6
19, 26, 6
20, 17, 2 (the fighter now has a SPEED of 3!)
21, 17, 2
22, 17, 2
23, 16, 1
24, 16, 1
25, 16, 1
26, 16, 1
27, 16, 1
28, 16, 1
29, 16, 0
30, 12, 0 (this is ridiculous, and SPEED=4)

Does that explain DEX to someone in real terms?