Guns in Fantasy

[Evil Steve]

Has anyone added Blackpowder weapons to a Fantasy game with success?

I'm thinking about adding them to mine, but I thought I should hear from experience first.

Some of the factors I'm considering: Raw Damage-How much hurt should they deliver? Should it be AP, semi-AP or just RKA? Cost?-How much for a pistol? Musket? Rifle? Should I even have Rifling? Magic compatability?-can one enchant guns? Bullets?

Help appreciated.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Black powder weapons are written up in Fantasy Hero.

And they work just fine. As for enchanting them, there's a reason that everyone knows that silver bullets kill werewolves. People have been enchanting bullets for as long as there have been guns.
I don't think it actually works in the real world, but there isn't any compelling reason a priori that it shouldn't work in your campaign.

[Shadowsoul]

Certainly you can have black powder weapons in fantasy, they form a rather large part of the campaign I've been runnning this year and posting on the Gunpowder, Reason and Plot thread.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59941


Early Firearms have been discussed here. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28792&highlight=black+powder

Here. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20821&highlight=black+powder

And here. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4895&highlight=black+powder

From looking at what other people have done it seems that if you want a reasonably realistic version of early black powder weapons your characters will have to expend quite a lot of points on penalty skill levels if they want to be at all accurate with these weapons and they will still have to reload them. I used Spence's stuff as a jumping off point and kept Captain Obvious' ideas in mind as well, (must remind my players that they can double shot etc).

As for using rifling, with the long reloading times rifles aren't going to outclass bows but they can seriously outdo muskets in a ranged battle. One of my PC's is a rifleman and he is easily the most lethal member of the party because he is terrifyingly and consistently accurate, even large monsters with damage reduction start to suffer when their opponent's can head shot them every other phase. (To be fair it took a while for him to get to that level, he put a lot of points in skill levels and penalty skill levels with rifles).

You also have to bear in mind that if a lot of the party are wielding black powder weapons their first reaction to a threat is to pepper it with lead, enemies need to be tough and agile enough to survive this initial volley.

[steamteck]

I've played an age of sail fantasy game for over ten years morphed from a regular fantasy game we started around 1980. We've used HERO for it for the last 5 years. It sometimes wanders into steamteck. Lots of fun bit radically different from standard fantasy.

The black powder weapons are far from overwhelming because of their low rate of fire. Enemies can get around the guns fairly easily but they do provide a good equalizer sometimes for magic. One of my players is an Allen Quartermain type and he is deadly in his long distance shots but the long reload time means the rifle shots are often far and far between. Bow fire faster which often is a problem for gunmen. Still things seem to come down to hand to hand combat most of the time.
My group wears little armor beyond a few chain mail vests as its more of a swashbuckling environment. Very fun time but very different than normal middle ages stuff but not so much to be unrecognizable although some sessions seem more like Pirates of the Carribean

[Curufea]

Fantasy does not equal "must only be medieval".

[CTaylor]

I don't care for guns or tech in fantasy, but it can be done fairly well. It just loses the fantasy feel to me if people have six shooters. It seems like too many fantasy games feel the overwhelming compulsion to add sci fi into their mix, aliens and ray-guns with wizards and dragons. It's a mistake in my opinion, and certainly a dull cliche by this point.

[tkdguy]

I've used flintlock guns in my fantasy campaign. They worked out all right. Healing got to be a problem, however, since I was running a nonmagical fantasy campaign.

[Outsider]

Given how superior bows are to muskets in HERO system, its surprising that armies adopted them at all before cartridge arms were available.

HERO system mechanics are why.

1) HERO doesnt reflect the difference in training time required to gain skill enough to use the weapons effectively. 1 point WF for a bow, 1 point WF for a gun.

2) HERO system SPD increases rate of fire with the bow, since it loads on the phase scale, but not with the guns, since they load on the turn scale.

3) HERO system movement/SPD interaction make it much easier to close with an opponent while he is reloading for characters with higher SPD.

[Chris Goodwin]

Illiterate peasants can be trained to load and shoot a firearm. There's an old saying about, if you want to train a longbowman, you start by training his grandfather.

[Ternaugh]

My last game setting had matchlocks and wheel locks from the start. It took about 13 years of running the game before a player decided to use a firearm as their primary weapon for their character. He built his character as a mage, with two wheel lock pistols and a wheel lock long gun (it was not rifled). That effectively meant that he had two shots in most combats, before he had to rely on something else. His character never reloaded during any combat, due to the time penalties.

The firearms that we were using in the game were based primarily on the stats from the ICE Campaign Classics book, Pirates, with modifications to take them into 4th edition (and then 5er). The guns tended to be a bit more accurate than the current FH designs. Reloads were calculated in Phases, but still averaged a full turn for most characters. Firearms were usually treated as AP vs conventional armor as a house rule. Another house rule increased the encumbrance costs associated with armor, due to the climate of the region. The ultimate goal of both of these was to get an environment where fencers could actually use real fencing weapons effectively, and to model a 1550s feel to the arms and armor.

This emphasis on a light fighter environment ended up meaning that mages tended to be the primary "artillery" in the PC party. Most physical fighting was done with swords, not bows, though a few Dwarven repeating crossbows were carried at various points by a few characters. And though these had a lower damage, their increased rate of fire and reload made them generally superior to most black powder firearms.

JoeG

[Cancer]

For extra fun, remember that personal firearms evolved at the same time as artillery pieces, too. The latter have an even lower rate of fire, but can have a profound effect in a siege environment.

[Ternaugh]

For extra fun, remember that personal firearms evolved at the same time as artillery pieces, too. The latter have an even lower rate of fire, but can have a profound effect in a siege environment.

Oh, we had that, too. It really made a mess in several contested cities, including one the that the PC group had to flee in a hurry. Oh, good times!

JoeG

[AmadanNaBriona]

I have black powder arms in my campaign world (Mostly because I love cannon battles on ships, and the technology logically wouldn't stop there).

Besides many of the already mentioned ideas (boostable charges for loading heavy and having the guns AP versus "real" armor) I also gave them extra DC's, and in some cases extra Stun Mods reduced by range to represent the extra "point and blank" impact, as in most of the old armament lists distinctly note at what range "proof" armors start reliably stopping hits.

I also haven't seen much mention of Snaphaunce locks, which predated doglocks by some 70 odd years if memory serves. They were invented sometime around 1530 in the low countries and gained a certain amount of popularity in certain regions, mostly where good wheellock makers were rare and local weather made matchlocks unreliable. European's pretty much dropped the Snaphaunce in favor for a couple of improved versions like the doglock before shortly settling on the fairly enduring flintlock mechanism. The design lasted a lot longer in the middle east and africa tho... Hit any decent antique dealer and you're likely as not to stumble across an old afgani snaphaunce jezzail. got to shoot a restored one once.
It was neat :P

[The Weapon]

Of course everyone knows that things that use burning sulfur release demons right? So obviously these new "fire weapons" will curse the crops, cause plague etc. True/false?

You could always go the unexpected route and tell players that some guys have long hollow sticks with fiery demons in them that leap out and bite people when a little lever is pulled. Then when they're expecting guns hit them with long hollow sticks with demons.

[Shadowsoul]

Of course everyone knows that things that use burning sulfur release demons right? So obviously these new "fire weapons" will curse the crops, cause plague etc. True/false?

You could always go the unexpected route and tell players that some guys have long hollow sticks with fiery demons in them that leap out and bite people when a little lever is pulled. Then when they're expecting guns hit them with long hollow sticks with demons.

Amusing idea.

I have heard that there was a belief in medieval Europe that guns could not harm demons because they used the element of fire/hellfire to work.

Fortunately for my players I haven't used the idea.

[Markdoc]

For extra fun, remember that personal firearms evolved at the same time as artillery pieces, too. The latter have an even lower rate of fire, but can have a profound effect in a siege environment.

Or even in the field - the string of french victories that ended the hundred year's war often featured light field artillery. The English tactic of "stand on defence with archery support" didn't work so well when your opponent could stand out of archery range and lob 12 pound stone balls into your massed ranks. Move into open order or try to retreat whilst under fire and you got ridden down by the knights standing in reserve. Even one or two field pieces could have a major effect.

cheers, Mark

[SSgt Baloo]

Amusing idea.

I have heard that there was a belief in medieval Europe that guns could not harm demons because they used the element of fire/hellfire to work.

Fortunately for my players I haven't used the idea.

And they smelled of brimstone! Another thing I read was that at one time the Pope ruled that rifled firearms were instruments of the devil, and good Christians could not use them without risking their eternal soul. It was believed that demons rode the bullets from rifled firearms. As proof of demonic guidance, the whining sound bullets from rifled weapons made when they riccocheted (as from a rock) was explained as the demon screaming in pain.

[assault]

Or even in the field - the string of french victories that ended the hundred year's war often featured light field artillery.

In fact, the French army at the Battle of Castillon (1453) was commanded by Jean Bureau, the French King's Master of Artillery, who appears to have been a mercenary commoner, rather than a nobleman.

Of course it was a combined arms victory - the French cavalry rode down the English after the infantry and guns had thrown them into disarray.

Funnily enough, battles like Castillon, Formigny and those of the relief of Orleans aren't as well known in English speaking countries as Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt. I wonder why? ;)

[Curufea]

And they smelled of brimstone! Another thing I read was that at one time the Pope ruled that rifled firearms were instruments of the devil, and good Christians could not use them without risking their eternal soul. It was believed that demons rode the bullets from rifled firearms. As proof of demonic guidance, the whining sound bullets from rifled weapons made when they riccocheted (as from a rock) was explained as the demon screaming in pain.

Amusing idea. But it depends on the culture - in Europe, demons are associated with the smell of sulphur/brimstone. Elsewhere, it's the smell of cinnamon.

[Shadowsoul]

In fact, the French army at the Battle of Castillon (1453) was commanded by Jean Bureau, the French King's Master of Artillery, who appears to have been a mercenary commoner, rather than a nobleman.

Of course it was a combined arms victory - the French cavalry rode down the English after the infantry and guns had thrown them into disarray.

Funnily enough, battles like Castillon, Formigny and those of the relief of Orleans aren't as well known in English speaking countries as Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt. I wonder why? ;)

Because battles that the French won with fiendish tricks such as 'superior technology' and 'better strategy' don't count!

And because remembering all the things that the French stole from the English people, (such as France), is depressing and only causes friction between our two great nations.


On a more relevant note if anyone would like to include black powder weapons in their campaign they might want to note some of the exotic guns that Early Modern Europeans came up with.

Ducksfoot pistols - pistols with five barrels that were intended to hit groups of foes or increase the chance of hitting in a confined space.

Boarding guns - enlarged versions of the Ducksfoot.

Hilt Pistols.

Pistols with dagger bayonets.

Rockets.

Axe-guns.

Lorenzoni repeaters - Insanely dangerous repeating flintlocks based on a 'roman candle' principle.

[AmadanNaBriona]

remembering all the things that the French stole from the English people, (such as France)
Not to mention England.
Of course, the Saxons stole it first.
Well, actually the Cymri stole it first, then the Romans, then the Saxons, then the French (Normans), but hey, who's counting?


On a more relevant note if anyone would like to include black powder weapons in their campaign they might want to note some of the exotic guns that Early Modern Europeans came up with.

Ducksfoot pistols - pistols with five barrels that were intended to hit groups of foes or increase the chance of hitting in a confined space.

Boarding guns - enlarged versions of the Ducksfoot.

Hilt Pistols.

Pistols with dagger bayonets.

Rockets.

Axe-guns.

Lorenzoni repeaters - Insanely dangerous repeating flintlocks based on a 'roman candle' principle.
And thats just the icing on the cake. I luv me some nice weird early experimental guns.
I've always liked the breach loading Pistol/shields Henry VIII had made for his elite guards

[SSgt Baloo]

Amusing idea. But it depends on the culture - in Europe, demons are associated with the smell of sulphur/brimstone. Elsewhere, it's the smell of cinnamon.

Yeah, but I was talking about Europe. I suspect the Pope had little authority in, say, China or India at that time. Despite Papal disapproval, rifled weapons remained in development and production.

[Savinien]

Links for these experimental guns with pics preferably?

[Shadowsoul]

Links for these experimental guns with pics preferably?

Well, since you asked so nicely.

You can find pictures of the ducksfoot and Lorenzoni guns here http://www.esnips.com/web/VintageGuns?docsPage=1#files (The Lorenzoni is on the second page).

Pistol swords are mentioned here http://www.answers.com/topic/pistol-sword

There are some more extensive web pages about early firearms but I'll have to ask Bismark to remind me where they are.

[Captain Obvious]

How did these Lorenzoni thingies work? It's a flintlock, so despite there being a couple of cartridges in the picture with it, it can't use them...it has to have powder exposed to the sparking of the hammer as it falls. How was it set up to put powder and ball in place after firing a shot?

[SSgt Baloo]

How did these Lorenzoni thingies work? It's a flintlock, so despite there being a couple of cartridges in the picture with it, it can't use them...it has to have powder exposed to the sparking of the hammer as it falls. How was it set up to put powder and ball in place after firing a shot?

http://www.geocities.com/ssgtbaloo/RepeatingFlintlock.jpg

See that long crank handle? The butt contains reservoirs for both shot and powder. Turning the crank in the correct direction witrh the barrel pointing down rotates the breechblock and allows first powder, then a ball, to be gravity-fed into the chamber. When the crank is in the firing position, the chamber is once ahain lined up with the barrel. All that remains is to charge the flashpan, close the frizzen, cock and fire. And, of course, hope like hell that hot gases don't leak into the butt and cause the pistol to explode. http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/shock.gif

I tried like heck to find an illustration of the mechanism but my google-fu seems weak today.

[Roter Baron]

One thing that is usually not considered in Fantasy campaigns featuring black-powder weapons is the devating effect of fire-based spells on musketeers.
One little ball of fire and you can see the enemy's ranks go up in colourful explosions of their own!
Also works on pesky pc-shootists ...

[Ternaugh]

One thing that is usually not considered in Fantasy campaigns featuring black-powder weapons is the devating effect of fire-based spells on musketeers.
One little ball of fire and you can see the enemy's ranks go up in colourful explosions of their own!
Also works on pesky pc-shootists ...

The wizard-musketeer in my last game had a number of spells that were used in creative ways. He had one that allowed him to "keep his powder dry", effectively allowing him to ignore penalties in light rain, and reduce them in a heavy downpour. He could also create a penetrating mist that increased misfire in the weapons carried by his opponents.

Additionally, barrels of gunpowder amongst the ranks of the bad guys were frequent targets of lightning or fire-based spells throughout the campaign. This was perhaps another reason that nobody played a musketeer until quite recently. I'm guessing that they did the calculations, and figured that at some time, they would be on the receiving end. (Though to be fair, the casks that the PCs were blowing up were substantially bigger, given that they were for the cannons).

JoeG

[AmadanNaBriona]

One thing that is usually not considered in Fantasy campaigns featuring black-powder weapons is the devating effect of fire-based spells on musketeers.
One little ball of fire and you can see the enemy's ranks go up in colourful explosions of their own!
Also works on pesky pc-shootists ...

My game uses a variation of the magic system from L.E Modesitt Jr.'s Recluse series, so in general gunpowder weapons are VERY dangerous to the users if there is a mage about. In order to have something resembling peace of mind the weapons have to be infused with Order magic at creation (rendering them effectively "antimagic" and resistant to interference), in a location that is by it's very nature inherently damping on fire/chaos magic (such as over deep water), or being actively protected by another mage (which means you're banking on your mage being stronger than the opponents mage). This lets me have my shipboard cannons, but keeps land based warfare somewhat gunpowder light, because of the rarity and/or expence of protected weapons

[DusterBoy]

Terry Pratchett's "Men At Arms" offers an interesting variation on "mediaeval" firearms. The "gonne" in question has a rifled barrel ("I had to make quite a complicated tool for that," said Leonard [da Quirm]) and operates on the flintlock principle although it fires self-contained metallic cartridges held in clips of six. The clip is fitted into the breach and moves sideways as the rounds are fired.

However, this IS the Discworld, and technology there is . . . idiosyncratic, to say the least. The "gonne" is a bodge of tech levels and was devised by the local equivalent of Leonardo da Vinci who is subject to "inspirations".

It is also sapient and has two distinctive character traits. It actively tries to prevent its own destruction and takes control of anyone who comes into contact with it. For Capt Vimes, for example, it tries to get him to shoot the Assassins, since Vimes despises Assassins and thinks the Disc would be a cleaner place without them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I'll repost this pic, originally from the "Cool Guns for your games" thread


A volley gun, on a field carriage

the same basic style with a single point pintle mount would occasionally replace a swivel gun in boarding actions on ship

[AmadanNaBriona]

I've seen pictures of examples of some of the other tricksty handguns, but they're hard to come by. My google-fu isn't quite up to par this AM, but here are a few over glitzy non firing reproductions I imagine most folk have stumbled across at novelty stores or Ren Faire vendors

A 3 barreled revolving flintlock, a double barreled model, and a pistol dagger

[Markdoc]

I can't do anything right now, because I fly back to the US tomorrow morning, but if you remind me of this thread in a couple of months. I'd be happy to go the national museum here in Copenhagen and take some photos in the "odd weapons" room. They have gun/bucklers, gun/swords, gun/spears, gun/daggers, gun/maces, gun/axes, multi-barreled flintlocks, wall guns, punt guns (like a wall gun, but boat mounted), etc.

Basically, any HTH weapon you can imagine had a gun built in at some point.

cheers, Mark

[SSgt Baloo]

Terry Pratchett's "Men At Arms" offers an interesting variation on "mediaeval" firearms. The "gonne" in question has a rifled barrel ("I had to make quite a complicated tool for that," said Leonard [da Quirm]) and operates on the flintlock principle although it fires self-contained metallic cartridges held in clips of six. The clip is fitted into the breach and moves sideways as the rounds are fired.

Truth is stranger than fiction. I hereby present the Harmonica Gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica_gun).

[The Weapon]

Illiterate peasants can be trained to load and shoot a firearm. There's an old saying about, if you want to train a longbowman, you start by training his grandfather.

Who is almost certainly an illiterate peasant. :) And quite likely a poacher if he wants to get really good with a bow. :eek:

[SSgt Baloo]

Truth is stranger than fiction. I hereby present the Harmonica Gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica_gun).

And here's a breechloading design that could have worked as a flintlock: the Burnside Carbine (http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/burnside.htm).

[Captain Obvious]

The Ferguson Rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_rifle) was another flintlock breechloader.

[AmadanNaBriona]

The Ferguson Rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_rifle) was another flintlock breechloader.

Yeah, I was gonna mention the ferguson

Rep for beating me to the punch

[Killer Shrike]

Yes, it works fine mechanically. It all just depends on if you like mixing tech and magic.

[Markdoc]

Illiterate peasants can be trained to load and shoot a firearm. There's an old saying about, if you want to train a longbowman, you start by training his grandfather.

You are probably thinking of crossbows :D

Early guns were very expensive and initially the exclusive property of nobles. Later - as they came to dominate the battlefield - they were mostly used by professional mercenaries (who often cost more to hire per head than landless knights). The real advantage of early guns was not ease of use (matchlocks are far harder to use reliably than bows and to get a decent rate of fire required lots of training), and it certainly wasn't accuracy. It was firepower. Late medieval armies that faced a lot of bow-armed opponents had evolved to use cavalry more often dismounted and the increase in mass-production of plate armour meant that heavily-armoured foot was also more common. In that situation, the longbow became largely ineffective (it's why in England over the 15th century, the archers used were more and more often provincial levies: professional soldiers - even commoners - were abandoning the bow for plate armour and a heavy polearm).

The gun put an end to that. At medium range, guns could scythe through any sort of troops, regardless of how heavily armoured and at close range, they were devastating. Team them up with pikemen to prevent a rapid cavalry charge sweeping your gunners away whilst unprepared and you have a winning combination. Also - not coincidentally, you have the army form that ushered out the middle ages.

So, I don't use gunpowder weapons in my fantasy games, but if I did, they'd likely be AP, a DC up from the heaviest bows and -1 range mod.

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

You are probably thinking of crossbows :D

Ahhhh... you're right. My statement is true of modern, mass produced firearms... and of crossbows.

[DusterBoy]

Truth is stranger than fiction. I hereby present the Harmonica Gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica_gun).

Wow. That's eerie. I wonder if Terry knew about it when he wrote "Men At Arms"?

Thanks for posting it, Staff. :thumbup: (In the British Army, "Staff" is an accepted abbreviation for Staff Sergeant.)

[AmadanNaBriona]

If I can't find my Early Firearms for HERO notes I may just have to reconstruct them.

I agree with what MarcDoc said.

I'm a bit more than a bit of an ancient firearms geek.
I've shot basically everything from a match-fired handcannon up through percussion cap revolvers. I have a deep and abiding love affair with 16th & 17th century guns. I've built a variety of the buggers, matchlocks, flintlocks, cannon...

That said I'm also a pretty damn good archer, so I can do a decent comparison.

I think the rules I came up with pretty well showed why black powder would eventually change the face of war. The rate of fire is the biggest limitation.

In early tech levels/fantasy games I tend to give guns the "exhibiting a power" or "Violent actions" PRE attack bonus, while volley fire gets "Extremely violent action".
The first time I was downrange from a cannon battery trying to charge it, even KNOWING they were shooting blanks the urge was VERY strong to grab dirt. While the "hail of death" slithering of a volley of arrows speeding home can be very creepy, it doesn't hold a candle to the "holy FRACK" factor of being in the concussion zone of a 4 pound field piece.

Some other points I've pondered on this topic...
Smoke.
Probably best as a semi-useful side effects (like jet exhaust or blowback from a rocket launcher). Black powder makes a LOT of smoke. Some period tactics discussions factor this into play. It was a big deal with naval warfare because of how it interacted with wind. Volley fire effectively creates a smokescreen in front of your troops. Part of why Pike & Shot squares are so scary to attack.. all that smoke is full of pointy bits you can't see.

Sure, It messes with your ability to aim too... but you're busy reloading, right?

I'm also pretty inclined to give guns a +1 Stun Mod, especially if Slings get this too.

bullets are also more likly to cause infected wounds from carrying foreign matter into the wound site, but now we're getting out of the scope of what's usually covered in Hero...

[ThothAmon]

Have a quick peek here for pictorial inspiration:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_combo.php

[Old Man]

"Shield with sword blade, gauntlet, sword catchers, and lantern"

Good thing they had the lantern in there, otherwise it'd have been too specialized.

[assault]

"Shield with sword blade, gauntlet, sword catchers, and lantern"

Good thing they had the lantern in there, otherwise it'd have been too specialized.

It was used by the Renaissance Green Lantern.

"In brightest day, in blackest night, ..."