portional speed

[The Rose]

Hello everyone,

I was wonderng if anyone out there allows someone to buy there speed to anything other than a whole number? By this I mean, could I, assuming my character has 15 Dex, be allowed to buy 10 points of speed so that I would have a 3.5 speed or would it be limited to being bought to 3 Or 4.

When it comes to speed I would allow people to buy it up to less than whole numbers. This comes in beneficial if you have powers set up to boost dex by just a little but you want to simulate a fairly major change. An example of this is with a character I have been writting up, that is a metamorph of sorts. In a multipower she has bought various physical stats that she can switch to to fit the mood at the time. One such slot has +5 dex. I don't have enough room in the MP to fit an additional +5 Dex to boost the speed (nor can I given Characteristic / CV maximums for the campaign) or even a +1 Spd. But I do easily have the points to buy a 3.5 Spd that will become a 4 while that slot is active. There are a dozen examples out there were it would be nice to buy Spd fractionaly but it isn't alowed typically and I was wondering if I am the only one who thinks it should.

Thanks in advance,
La Rose

[Trebuchet]

Hello everyone,

I was wonderng if anyone out there allows someone to buy there speed to anything other than a whole number? By this I mean, could I, assuming my character has 15 Dex, be allowed to buy 10 points of speed so that I would have a 3.5 speed or would it be limited to being bought to 3 Or 4.

When it comes to speed I would allow people to buy it up to less than whole numbers. This comes in beneficial if you have powers set up to boost dex by just a little but you want to simulate a fairly major change. An example of this is with a character I have been writting up, that is a metamorph of sorts. In a multipower she has bought various physical stats that she can switch to to fit the mood at the time. One such slot has +5 dex. I don't have enough room in the MP to fit an additional +5 Dex to boost the speed (nor can I given Characteristic / CV maximums for the campaign) or even a +1 Spd. But I do easily have the points to buy a 3.5 Spd that will become a 4 while that slot is active. There are a dozen examples out there were it would be nice to buy Spd fractionaly but it isn't alowed typically and I was wondering if I am the only one who thinks it should.

Thanks in advance,
La RoseWhile there are technically no increments to SPD, I can't see any reason not to allow it for purposes of Adjustment Powers. So if a character with a 15 DEX gets an additional 5 DEX, I can't see any reason his SPD wouldn't increase to 3.

[The Rose]

While there are technically no increments to SPD, I can't see any reason not to allow it for purposes of Adjustment Powers. So if a character with a 15 DEX gets an additional 5 DEX, I can't see any reason his SPD wouldn't increase to 3.


oops you cuaght a mistake of mine. I didn't clairify my my point. The character in this case has a 3 speed being that I have bought the 5 points worth of speed to raise it up to that limit already. My point is that I want to buy it to 3.5. By the baseline rules you only buy Spd to a whole number, and as such I couldn't technically buy it to 3.5 only 3 or 4. Hope this clairifies my point. Sorry.

La Rose

[Trebuchet]

oops you cuaght a mistake of mine. I didn't clairify my my point. The character in this case has a 3 speed being that I have bought the 5 points worth of speed to raise it up to that limit already. My point is that I want to buy it to 3.5. By the baseline rules you only buy Spd to a whole number, and as such I couldn't technically buy it to 3.5 only 3 or 4. Hope this clairifies my point. Sorry.It would be a GM call anyway. What does your GM say?

[The Rose]

It would be a GM call anyway. What does your GM say?

Oh I know it is GM call on it and I never brought it up, although I imagine it would be okay. I was just thinking about this as being set up a suggestion to Steve for 6th edition. But I wanted to see what others thought about it.

La Rose

[Trebuchet]

Oh I know it is GM call on it and I never brought it up, although I imagine it would be okay. I was just thinking about this as being set up a suggestion to Steve for 6th edition. But I wanted to see what others thought about it.What would be the game effect of having a 3.4 SPD vs. a 3.3?

[The Rose]

What would be the game effect of having a 3.4 SPD vs. a 3.3?

The effect would only be noticed in ajustment powers or buying characteristics as powers. (edit) a 3.4 or 3.9 is still a spd 3 for all accounts (end edit) But as I was saying above It would allow for things like the +5 dex to act upon the fractional spd that you buy intentionaly, to boost spd. While at the same time not requiring you to buy the full +10 dex or the +1 spd. Thus allowing a design to be a tad more flexible in write up so as to fit a more dynamic design for a character.

La Rose

[Trebuchet]

The effect would only be noticed in ajustment powers or buying characteristics as powers. (edit) a 3.4 or 3.9 is still a spd 3 for all accounts (end edit) But as I was saying above It would allow for things like the +5 dex to act upon the fractional spd that you buy intentionaly, to boost spd. While at the same time not requiring you to buy the full +10 dex or the +1 spd. Thus allowing a design to be a tad more flexible in write up so as to fit a more dynamic design for a character.That's how it already works. If a character has a 4 SPD, he has to be Drained all the way down to "SPD 3.0" before he slows down. As long as he's got SPD 3.1 from his normal 4, he can act as a SPD 4.

[Gary]

What would be the game effect of having a 3.4 SPD vs. a 3.3?

An interesting idea might be to allow fractional speed for real. If you have a 3.4 SPD, you roll a d10 each Turn. A 1-4 or less means you act on 4 Spd and a 5-10 means you act on a 3 Spd for that Turn.

This would allow FAR greater granularity between characters, especially at the lower end of the Spd chart.

[The Rose]

That's how it already works. If a character has a 4 SPD, he has to be Drained all the way down to "SPD 3.0" before he slows down. As long as he's got SPD 3.1 from his normal 4, he can act as a SPD 4.


I wasn't in referance to ajustment powers that act to lower spd but rather those that act to increase. If I buy up to a spd 4, and want to have a power increase it I need to do it either buy a standard ajustment power that adds a FULL 10pts of spd or buy +1Spd or +10Dex. What I am suggesing is to allow a character to buy a fraction speed that way if later on he wants to increase his spd in a given situation using a power he doesn't have to do a full 10pts worth of effect but rather do the remainder of it. IE I have been allowed to buy 4.5 spd (for all accounts I am a spd 4), and buy in a multipower +5dex. When ever I switch to that slot in the multipower I will become a Spd 5. Or by absorbtion only has to do 15 active points of effect an not 30pts of effect to get me to the next level.

Also when it comes to drains if I was allowed to buy my spd to 4.9, Then the drain would have to do 19points of effect before my character notices it.

la Rose

[Alibear]

I've encountered this before in my fantasy campaign. One player was buying up his speed slowly bit by bit.

I decided that him with 15 dex 3.2 speed went before 15 dex 3 speeders.

Also if and when if was speed drained he'd have a few points buffer. It never ever came up in play but it was a rule we made just in case. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

I've encountered this before in my fantasy campaign. One player was buying up his speed slowly bit by bit.

I decided that him with 15 dex 3.2 speed went before 15 dex 3 speeders.

Also if and when if was speed drained he'd have a few points buffer. It never ever came up in play but it was a rule we made just in case. ;)

Rather than have a 3.3 Speed, I'd rather buy +1 SPD, Act 8-. At PS 12, you roll, and on an 8- you have a 4 SPD next turn. I have a character buying his SPD up in this fashion.

[Maur]

I wasn't aware that you couldn't have a portional speed. Just that it didn't do any good in regards to where you moved on the SPD chart as you truncate off the fraction to determine your real speed. So, if you didn't buy any speed and bought Dex up to 15, then you would have a SPD of 2.5 and act at the same speed as SPD 2 people.

[archermoo]

I wasn't aware that you couldn't have a portional speed. Just that it didn't do any good in regards to where you moved on the SPD chart as you truncate off the fraction to determine your real speed. So, if you didn't buy any speed and bought Dex up to 15, then you would have a SPD of 2.5 and act at the same speed as SPD 2 people.

Well, by the rules you cannot have a fractional SPD. In the case of someone with a 10 DEX, buying a 3 SPD would cost them 10 points. If they then buy their DEX up to 15, the 3 SPD now only costs 5 points. The only place that fractional SPD comes into play is in how much it costs to buy that first point of extra SPD from your base. Someone with a 10 DEX who hasn't spent any points on SPD has a 2 SPD. If they wanted to buy a 3 SPD it would cost 10 points. Someone with a 15 DEX who hasn't spent any points on SPD also has a 2 SPD. However it only costs them 5 points to buy a 3 SPD.

[Captain Obvious]

Well, by the rules you cannot have a fractional SPD. In the case of someone with a 10 DEX, buying a 3 SPD would cost them 10 points. If they then buy their DEX up to 15, the 3 SPD now only costs 5 points. The only place that fractional SPD comes into play is in how much it costs to buy that first point of extra SPD from your base. Someone with a 10 DEX who hasn't spent any points on SPD has a 2 SPD. If they wanted to buy a 3 SPD it would cost 10 points. Someone with a 15 DEX who hasn't spent any points on SPD also has a 2 SPD. However it only costs them 5 points to buy a 3 SPD.

That's not how I read it. The "no fractional SPD" rule, to me, says that there's no functional difference between 3 and 3.x, except where adjustment powers come in. It also says that you can't spend 5 points on SPD and round it up to the next whole number...IIRC earlier editions let you do that.

Looking back, though, we may not be as off as I originally thought. Are you saying that an existing character, after receiving enough XP to buy his DEX to 15, then gets back 5 XP to bring his SPD back down to 2.0? Because that's how I first interpreted this post.

[archermoo]

That's not how I read it. The "no fractional SPD" rule, to me, says that there's no functional difference between 3 and 3.x, except where adjustment powers come in. It also says that you can't spend 5 points on SPD and round it up to the next whole number...IIRC earlier editions let you do that.

To the best of my recollection SPD has always rounded down.


Looking back, though, we may not be as off as I originally thought. Are you saying that an existing character, after receiving enough XP to buy his DEX to 15, then gets back 5 XP to bring his SPD back down to 2.0? Because that's how I first interpreted this post.

Well, they don't get 5 XP "back". Their SPD no longer costs as much, so the points of the character rebalance.

[Captain Obvious]

To the best of my recollection SPD has always rounded down.



Well, they don't get 5 XP "back". Their SPD no longer costs as much, so the points of the character rebalance.

I'm still not clear here.

Let's say a character starts out his adventuring career with 10 DEX and 3 SPD. He's spent 10 points on SPD. Later, after several adventures, he spends 15 points to raise his DEX to 15. This alters his SPD to (3.5 rounded down =) 3, ie no change.

I say those extra 5 points do nothing except make Aiding SPD easier and Draining it harder.

Are you saying that those extra 5 points of SPD just get reallocated to make the DEX cheaper or what?

[archermoo]

I'm still not clear here.

Let's say a character starts out his adventuring career with 10 DEX and 3 SPD. He's spent 10 points on SPD. Later, after several adventures, he spends 15 points to raise his DEX to 15. This alters his SPD to (3.5 rounded down =) 3, ie no change.

I say those extra 5 points do nothing except make Aiding SPD easier and Draining it harder.

Are you saying that those extra 5 points of SPD just get reallocated to make the DEX cheaper or what?

I'm saying that they go from their DEX and SPD in total costing 10 points at 10/3 to costing 20 points at 15/3.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm saying that they go from their DEX and SPD in total costing 10 points at 10/3 to costing 20 points at 15/3.

Hmm...I'll take that as a yes, then.

[archermoo]

Hmm...I'll take that as a yes, then.

Take it how you will. It means exactly what it says.

Having a 10 DEX and 3 SPD costs 10 points. Having a 15 DEX and 3 SPD costs 20 points. It doesn't matter if they were purchased when the character was first created or bought up later via XPs. The fact remains that a 10 DEX with a 3 SPD costs 10 points, and a 15 DEX with a 3 SPD costs 20.

Edit: And this is one of the many reasons that I'm really hoping that Figured Characteristics stop being figured in 6e. :)

[The Rose]

Hmm...I'll take that as a yes, then.


The basic idea of buying up your dex later with EXP is that if you also keep your SPD consistant (meaning not letting it increase, even if by a fraction) then your dex equiviantly cost 2pts rather than 3 becuase you skim off a point spent to increase your speed so that it stays even. If you have HD at all try this and it will easily display what Archermoo and I are explaining.

Again I was wondering who agrees that you should be able to buy fractional spd values. I personally am not talking about buying a way for your character to possibly act more often or faster than what there spd rounds to. Rather that it becomes possible to have a spd ending with a fraction so that ajustment powers or characteristics, can act upon it later. Be it that it takes longer to drain becuase of the fraction, or becuase that a small aid or absorbtion will boost you up quickly while keeping the Aid/Absorbtion small in there active point cost.

La Rose.

[Killer Shrike]

As you note this is not technically legal, and also HD wont allow it. However you as the GM can allow it as it causes no harm in general. You can track it in HD w/ a 5 point Custom Power or Talent if you prefer.

[SSgt Baloo]

If I were to allow fractional speed, I might do something like .5 up to .9 extra allows the character to act at the next higher speed on alternate turns.

[Maur]

HD seems perfectly willing to let me buy up my Dex and it moves the SPD up just fractionally. If I buy SPD it only does whole numbers and pays the difference.

[Killer Shrike]

HD seems perfectly willing to let me buy up my Dex and it moves the SPD up just fractionally. If I buy SPD it only does whole numbers and pays the difference.
Yes, but it wont let you buy fractional SPD after you round off the original figured, which is what the OP is saying he wants to allow for purposes of benefiting from adjustments later.

In other words, he wants a character with say DEX 20 and SPD 3.5

Normally, that .5 SPD does nothing (and isn't even legally doable), but if the character had say Absorption to SPD or Aid to SPD or Succor to SPD (or an ally does), that .5 points would help the character hit 4 SPD easier. Incidentally (and relatively unimportantly) it would also act kind of like a ablative Power Defense vs a few points of Transfers and Drains vs their SPD.


I've seen characters before where it would be convenient from a design perspective to have a couple of fractional points of SPD like this to benefit from an Adjustment synergy; and its well within the GM's purview to allow it if they feel that it isn't unbalancing / unfair.

[Alibear]

If you have already bought down a figured characteristic it would be illegal to buy down speed as Dex was purchased. ;)

[Captain Obvious]

If you have already bought down a figured characteristic it would be illegal to buy down speed as Dex was purchased. ;)

Does Hero Designer follow this? Someone try dropping a point of END or STUN and then bump up DEX so that it adds fractional SPD.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you have already bought down a figured characteristic it would be illegal to buy down speed as Dex was purchased. ;)

It would be legal to buy your DEX "No Figured Characteristics" for exactly the same cost, though.

In any case, I would suggest that a character who has a 10 DEX and a 3 SPD, who then buys +5 DEX is not buying down his SPD - he's still paying 5 points on it. If he had a 20 DEX and a 3 SPD, then I could see a case that bumping up to 23 DEX for 6 points included a sellback of SPD. But then I just buy DEX with No Figured.

[Alibear]

It would be legal to buy your DEX "No Figured Characteristics" for exactly the same cost, though.



I should have seen that before I posted :(

[archermoo]

If you have already bought down a figured characteristic it would be illegal to buy down speed as Dex was purchased. ;)


Does Hero Designer follow this? Someone try dropping a point of END or STUN and then bump up DEX so that it adds fractional SPD.

Per the rules you cannot buy down any fractional SPD you have from your base SPD. I.e. if you have a 22 DEX you can't sell back .2 SPD to have a straight 3 SPD. If you sell your SPD down to 2, you get 10 points back. Not 12. This is also the way that HD handles it.

As I've said before (and as 5ER says on p38) fractional SPD only exists to reduce the cost of buying up your first point of extra SPD if your DEX isn't a multiple of 10.

As for the HD test, I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. As you add DEX your base SPD goes up. But you aren't buying SPD down unless you are taking it down a full point. I.e. if you have a 22 DEX, your base SPD is 3.2, and your SPD is 3. If you want to buy your SPD down, you have to buy it down to 2 and get 10 points. Or to 1 for 20 points. If you raise your DEX up to 28, your SPD (barring having bought it up by itself) is still 3. The base SPD is 3.8, and it would only cost 2 points to buy it up to 4. But your SPD is still 3.

Hero doesn't make a differentiation between things purchased before play and things purchased with XP after play starts. Unlike games like GURPS there isn't any difference bewteen the two in Hero. A 20 DEX and 4 SPD costs 40 points. It doesn't matter if you started with it or if you buy it up later, it still costs the same 40 points. And a 25 DEX and 4 SPD costs 55 points, again whether you started with it there or bought it up later. It doesn't cost an extra 5 points just because you started with a 20 DEX and 4 SPD.

[Alibear]

I didn't grok that.

If I have dex 15 and 3 speed and then buy up my dex to 17 how many points does that cost me to make that leap?

[archermoo]

I didn't grok that.

If I have dex 15 and 3 speed and then buy up my dex to 17 how many points does that cost me to make that leap?

DEX 15 and SPD 3 costs 20 points. DEX 17 and SPD 3 costs 24 points. So the later costs 4 more than the former.

[Silbeg]

My experience has been (in versions prior to the rule being codified) that fractional speeds are easily taken abused. While the player may claim that it is as a defense against drains (which, if true, should be bought as a limited Power DEF), in reality there will soon come along an Aid (or Succor) to SPD...

Amazing, that the character happened to have "4.4 SPD", and the SPD booster just happens to be 2d6 Aid to SPD, Standard Effect (suitably limited, or in a convenient VPP).

Now, the character ends up always working with a 5 SPD, since he is always getting boosted prior to fighting.

No, I fully agree with the "No fractional SPD" rules.

And, to answer the many questions about increasing DEX while keeping a purchased SPD the same, I would say that purchased DEX is effectively bought "NO Figured Characteristics".

I say effectively, because that isn't really true... actually you are removing 1 point spent on SPD per +1 DEX bought. If you do end up buying so much DEX that it would have an effect on the SPD of the character, then just buy the additional DEX with "No Figured...", pay the cost to increase the SPD, or just take the loss. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

[Alibear]

DEX 15 and SPD 3 costs 20 points. DEX 17 and SPD 3 costs 24 points. So the later costs 4 more than the former.

Okay I do grok that, thanks. I think. :thumbup:

[Hugh Neilson]

My experience has been (in versions prior to the rule being codified) that fractional speeds are easily taken abused. While the player may claim that it is as a defense against drains (which, if true, should be bought as a limited Power DEF), in reality there will soon come along an Aid (or Succor) to SPD...

Amazing, that the character happened to have "4.4 SPD", and the SPD booster just happens to be 2d6 Aid to SPD, Standard Effect (suitably limited, or in a convenient VPP).

And he paid 4 points for +0.4 SPD instead of putting a 3.5d6 Aid with standard effect, suitably limited or in a convenient VPP and still always having a 5 SPD. I think the problem here, if there is one, does not rest with the fractional SPD.

[The Rose]

Per the rules you cannot buy down any fractional SPD you have from your base SPD. I.e. if you have a 22 DEX you can't sell back .2 SPD to have a straight 3 SPD. If you sell your SPD down to 2, you get 10 points back. Not 12. This is also the way that HD handles it.

As I've said before (and as 5ER says on p38) fractional SPD only exists to reduce the cost of buying up your first point of extra SPD if your DEX isn't a multiple of 10.

As for the HD test, I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. As you add DEX your base SPD goes up. But you aren't buying SPD down unless you are taking it down a full point. I.e. if you have a 22 DEX, your base SPD is 3.2, and your SPD is 3. If you want to buy your SPD down, you have to buy it down to 2 and get 10 points. Or to 1 for 20 points. If you raise your DEX up to 28, your SPD (barring having bought it up by itself) is still 3. The base SPD is 3.8, and it would only cost 2 points to buy it up to 4. But your SPD is still 3.

Hero doesn't make a differentiation between things purchased before play and things purchased with XP after play starts. Unlike games like GURPS there isn't any difference bewteen the two in Hero. A 20 DEX and 4 SPD costs 40 points. It doesn't matter if you started with it or if you buy it up later, it still costs the same 40 points. And a 25 DEX and 4 SPD costs 55 points, again whether you started with it there or bought it up later. It doesn't cost an extra 5 points just because you started with a 20 DEX and 4 SPD.

I wasn't talking about buying your SPD down below its starting value at any point in my post. I was talking about buying it up though. And in referance, if I have a dex 10 SPD 3 character and buy +1 Dex (yes this is using HD) it cost the character 2pts not three becuase HD never allows you to have a fractional SPD value after you have bought or Sold off SPD. Now I never actually knew about the buying it down thing where you don't get points back for that fraction you lose and I think that should change as well since it essentaily cost the character more for less.


My experience has been (in versions prior to the rule being codified) that fractional speeds are easily taken abused. While the player may claim that it is as a defense against drains (which, if true, should be bought as a limited Power DEF), in reality there will soon come along an Aid (or Succor) to SPD...

Amazing, that the character happened to have "4.4 SPD", and the SPD booster just happens to be 2d6 Aid to SPD, Standard Effect (suitably limited, or in a convenient VPP).

Now, the character ends up always working with a 5 SPD, since he is always getting boosted prior to fighting.

No, I fully agree with the "No fractional SPD" rules.

Now I believe I understand your concern and that is something every GM should consider, just like every other possible power build, or anything else purchases by PCs. Now I would ask if there was a SPD cap in the game you refered to? And if so was 5 above it? IF not I would say that, the build would be perfectly legal in my game (barring other conditions, beyond a strick SPD value). The reason why is becuase the characters is legimitly paying for something out of character points he has. As GM I should consider him buying fractional SPD every bit as carefully has him buying an extra DC of HKA. If I think it will be unbalancing I don't allow that exact build, I however don't forbid him and everyone one else from buying only whole amounts of HKA(ie 3DC or 1D6), or only Full values of SPD, but rather judge each build on its own merits. After all the rules are there to enable the characters to do the best they can, the GM is there to make sure everyone stays in step with eachother.

La Rose.

PS.: One die of Aid is equal to +1Spd. He is spending 24pts, in your example, for a +1spd rather than buying +1 spd straight for 10pts. That is 240% more costly and doesn't automatically work sine aid still needs to hit and roll enought effect. Also Aid requires and action to use, and a basic +1Spd doesn't. So really is it that much of an advantage to the PC?

[archermoo]

I wasn't talking about buying your SPD down below its starting value at any point in my post. I was talking about buying it up though. And in referance, if I have a dex 10 SPD 3 character and buy +1 Dex (yes this is using HD) it cost the character 2pts not three becuase HD never allows you to have a fractional SPD value after you have bought or Sold off SPD. Now I never actually knew about the buying it down thing where you don't get points back for that fraction you lose and I think that should change as well since it essentaily cost the character more for less.

You might not have mentioned buying SPD down, but the posts that I was replying to did.

And yes, in most circumstances if you are increasing DEX while keeping SPD the same, the DEX effectively costs 2 CP per +1. Or more accurately the +1 DEX costs 3 points, but your SPD gets 1 point cheaper.

[SteveZilla]

Rather than have a 3.3 Speed, I'd rather buy +1 SPD, Act 8-. At PS 12, you roll, and on an 8- you have a 4 SPD next turn. I have a character buying his SPD up in this fashion.

Activation Rolls are supposed to be rolled each Phase the character wants to use or maintain the power (5ER, 283). That means that Mr. SPD 3, +1 SPD, Act 8- would have to make that roll on every one of his (now) 4 Phases to maintain that SPD throughout his Turn.