OHID vs Shape Shift

[DeJoker]

I was presented with the following and told that the OIHID (Only In Hero Id) effect allows a character to look different enough that no one would recognize them in their hero id because they took the OIHID and applied its "special effects" to allow them to look different.

Cost Power Description
12 Body of Steel: Armor (6 PD/6 ED) (18 Active Points);
Visible (-1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)
10 Body of Steel: Armor (6 PD/6 ED) (18 Active Points);
Visible (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4),
Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4)
7 Body of Steel: Density Increase
(100 kg mass, +5 STR, +1 PD/ED, -1" KB),
Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points)

I said to do that you would need to take Shape Shift and they said basically that: They didn't need shape shift because the alterred appearance is just a special effect. For Instance: take Spider-Man. He hides his identity behind a costume and mask. This character changes into a metal person. I don't see any difference. It's not shape shifting because it's a special effect into one shape: the character's metal one. Plastic Man who can change into any one or anything needs shapeshift. Remember, Champions works on effects. If I want a character to take NO damage from ranged attacks because I say they are super tough, I could buy them scads of Armor. But I could also buy Missile Deflection and say that the attacks bounce off their chest (even though the power is called Missile Deflection). Its all about effect. The limitation OIHID comes from (and its only -1/4) the fact that the character transformation can be interrupted, its not instant, etc... Something to be roleplayed, like most 1/4 limitations.

Okay is this true --- I mean would you allow someone to do this with the OIHID limitation? I mean can you get a 20 Active Point power by using the Special Effect of a disadvantage? I know they say that Special Effect of a Power can sometimes get you up to an extra 10 Active Points but a disadvantage?

Note I asked Steve Long and his answer was rather ambiguous, so I am posting here to see what the general consensus would be.

[BlackSword]

I don't think there is a hard and fast answer, it depends on the style of the game. If you are playing in a game where a domino mask or pair of glasses can perserve a secret identity, then I too would balk if I had to pay 20 points for shapeshift just to retain my secret identity while Batman got his cowl for free. If the game is more realistic and a perception roll can break through a disguise, then Shapeshift may be more appropriate.

[DocSamson]

It's a good question. As a full-time GM, I allow OIHID to obscure the character's identity if the player wishes. Examples in comics I would reference include characters like Thor (Donald Blake version), Sasquatch, Captain Marvel (DC), Firestorm, ect. IMHO requiring Shape Shift (or even Transform for a costume change) is overkill.

[Tonio]

I don't think having OIHID should ever obscure the character's identity. Having a "HID" (a Heroic ID) does. OIHID just means that you can only use that power when in your Heroic ID. It does not give you a Heroic ID.

[boomer]

So he can become metal...ala Colossus? If so, then that's shapeshift or even a transform of some kind. OHID is usually reserved for characters with a focus that allows them to transform into their Hero ID. Take my Energy Projector El Sol. He found wristbands of a priest of Huichilobos (most likely spelled wrong sorry). When he utters the command "Yo Soy El Sol" and clashes those wristbands together he becomes an avatar of the Aztec God of the Sun. Complete with traditional dress, Mask, etc. They used to call that "Instant Change" but now that's considered a form of "transform". All his powers though are OIHId because they are just wristbands unless you perform the gesture and incantations.

[DocSamson]

While the GM has the right to require shape-shifting or a body alteration ability, I would like to point out that the example powers on pg. 302 of 5ER do not include such.

[Kenn]

So he can become metal...ala Colossus? If so, then that's shapeshift or even a transform of some kind. OHID is usually reserved for characters with a focus that allows them to transform into their Hero ID.

It isn't necassarily "reserved". All "Only in Hero ID" means is that he has a heroic identity that is somehow distinct from his civilian idenity and that the power with the limitation is only available to the former, not the latter. For it to be worth points, there has to be some reason why the individual can't just change identities at any moment (which would make the power available all the time). But what that reason is should be between the player and the GM in a case-by-case basis.

I know my Captain Marvel pastiche, Captain Miracle, was very nearly killed in his Christian Cameron identity once, because the circumstance was such that he didn't want to blow his double identity and he believed his teammates would save him.

[ghost-angel]

Aw heck - I've played in games where you don't even need OIHID to change shape. Just turning on Powers is enough to do that.

It does come down to game play style.

On a pure Mechanic Level, when you factor in SFX - you do not need Shapeshift to change your shape.

FREX: HKA defined as Large Clawed Hand can be defined:
1) Your hand Always looks that way (In some game that even qualifies as a Distinctive Feature).
2) Your hand looks normal until you use your Claws and then it instantly goes from Normal Hand to Large Clawed Hand (no Disad, no Limitation, just turn Power on/off)
3) You have to take a moment to bring out your claws (Only In Hero ID Limitation).
4) You have to physically change shape from Normal Human to Human With Large Clawed Hand (Shapeshift:Touch).

So... to answer your question: Yes, No, And Then Some.

[CrosshairCollie]

I look at it this way.

Colossus merely activates his powers (Visible Armor linked with visible Life Support, extra Strength). Since virtually nothing can stop him from going from Peter to Colossus, he gets no point break. Also in this category is the Human Torch (Johnny Storm).

Captain Marvel (Billy Batson) has Only In Hero ID. He can be prevented from transforming into his heroic identity (he can be gagged). Thor (back in the day) had the same, because he could only change from Dr. Blake to Thor if he was holding his cane.

The Hulk (classic green or grey) has Multiform. His personalities, minds, and skill-sets are completely different in his two forms. Wolfsbane would also have Multiform, because her full-wolf form has significantly different capabilities than her human/hybrid forms (no hands, no speech).

[Trebuchet]

Our group's take on this is that if a character has abilities (especially defensive ones) in his Heroic ID that he lacks in his civilian ID, then it's worth the -1/4 OIHID Limitation. Clearly that's not as good as having it on all the time (like Superman does).

[casualplayer]

Only in Hero ID (please be renamed in 6th Ed to something without genre bias) would be called Obvious, if that wasn't already taken, or should be called Apparent or something similar. What it means is that whenever the applicable power is in effect, active or being used that any observers get gifted a successful PER Roll to go "Holy Smokes! That guy has superpowers!" It's like having a conditional Distinctive Feature: Abnormal Person tied to your powers. It makes it ridiculously hard to use your powers without blowing your secret id to bits, some might say impossibly so. It also has to have some sort of drawback to being in Hero ID so that the character doesn't just stay that way all the time.

I think you might mean Multiform rather than Shape Shift. The Hulk, Thor, Ben 10 and Captain Marvel have Multiforms. It's primarily used when the character's various forms have differences extensive enough to warrant seperate character sheets.

In case you did actually mean Shape Shift, that power is only required if the character wants versatility in form and the ability to manipulate form by choice.

[The Rose]

Aw heck - I've played in games where you don't even need OIHID to change shape. Just turning on Powers is enough to do that.

It does come down to game play style.

On a pure Mechanic Level, when you factor in SFX - you do not need Shapeshift to change your shape.

FREX: HKA defined as Large Clawed Hand can be defined:
1) Your hand Always looks that way (In some game that even qualifies as a Distinctive Feature).
2) Your hand looks normal until you use your Claws and then it instantly goes from Normal Hand to Large Clawed Hand (no Disad, no Limitation, just turn Power on/off)
3) You have to take a moment to bring out your claws (Only In Hero ID Limitation).
4) You have to physically change shape from Normal Human to Human With Large Clawed Hand (Shapeshift:Touch).

So... to answer your question: Yes, No, And Then Some.

Nicely said.

OHID has many good uses. To answer your friend though, it doesn't neccisarily give anyone the ability not to be recognized. That is entirely up to the GM, and the game setting. If for example it is a fairly comic booky setting them just putting on a pair of glass makes you entirely unrecognizable. If it is grounded more in real life then it is up the GM on how perceptive the NPC are.

Now to respond to your friends Character build I would have to ask him to explain what is taking place that requires time for him to activate his powers, and how can it be reasonably stopped? OHID is to represent powers that a character doesn't have access to at all times, not that he doesn't want to use them, but that he CAN"T. Superman and Spiderman are both examples to this, in that they have full access to there abilities and powers at ALL times whether wearring a costume or not. Afterall how many times have you seen Clark Kent stop a crook, or Peter narrowly avoid something while neither wore there costumes. Having a Secret ID and not wanting to be caught is a Social Disadvantage not a power limitation.

OHID represents a means by which you can stop a character from getting access to his powers at all by preventing the change.Take for example CrosshairCollie's examples of Cap Marvel and Thor. Neither can uses there fantastic abilities witout saying the magical works, no mater how badly they want too. Colussus on the other hand doesn't have any trouble activating his powers in any situation.

To further expand on this, and to show its differance compared to Multiform I have to character ideas that I wrote up once that use OHID. First was a guy that suffered from a form of multiple personality disorder. Anytime he wore his mask, his inhibitions went away and he didn't hold back on using his abilities. Although he had access to the powers in the sense that they were part of him and he didn't have to become someone new to have them exist. Rather there was some strong force inside him that was afraid of using them and as such didn't allow him to activate them. Becuase of this duality in his existance he had a mental breakdown and developed a split personality, and the alter ego wasn't afraid. The reason it was OHID was that untill he put his mask on he couldn't use his powers at all, no mater the reason. The players reason for this build was to RP through him learning to come to grips with his true nature and overcome his alter ego, and doing this buy becoming accustomed to his abilities and buying off the OHID.

Another common use of OHID is for those who wear Power Armor. It is one of those lims you should check with your GM before putting on Power armor since it is already bought with Focus, and might make the cost to cheep. But the reason (special F/X reason that is) you would put OHID on a suit of power armor is because untill you put on that suit you were as useless as a normal person. The game mechanic reason is that without OHID it could be concievable to use the power armor's powers without ever putting it on. After all Focus doesn't say you have to wear your Focus just possess it.

In the End if his powers works like Peter's (Colossus) then OHID isn't appropriate since there is no way to prevent him from achieving his powers. If his reason for having them w/ that is becuase it takes time to activate them (OHID requires a minimum of half phase or full phase, i forget, before you can use it) then just have him put on Extra time. But in the end I think Visible is the only appriopriate limitation on it. And no OHID doesn't make you incappable of being percieved as being person X, but rather the GM does that bases on the SpF/X of your powers, and how that relates to his NPCs.

Hope that didn't confuse the issue,
La Rose.

[SteveZilla]

Another common use of OHID is for those who wear Power Armor. It is one of those lims you should check with your GM before putting on Power armor since it is already bought with Focus, and might make the cost too cheap.

"A power cannot take both OIHID and a Focus Limitation. However, you can use OIHID to simulate characters who seem to have a Focus, but somehow never lose it." (5er, p302).


But the reason (special F/X reason that is) you would put OHID on a suit of power armor is because untill you put on that suit you were as useless as a normal person. The game mechanic reason is that without OHID it could be concievable to use the power armor's powers without ever putting it on. After all Focus doesn't say you have to wear your Focus just possess it.

But the Special Effects say that the suit of armor (Focus) must be worn to use the power bought though the focus. And a Focus has to be in your possession -- not back at the base locked in your personal safe. The only exeption I know of is when you buy a Teleportation Floating Location (the 5 pt one) with Focus to represent a "marker" you can place somewhere (or give to someone) and later teleport to that marker. It's not in your possession, yet that Location is useable.

[CrosshairCollie]

Our group's take on this is that if a character has abilities (especially defensive ones) in his Heroic ID that he lacks in his civilian ID, then it's worth the -1/4 OIHID Limitation. Clearly that's not as good as having it on all the time (like Superman does).

The odd thing is, Armor and Damage Resistance (if we can assume these are the defensive powers Superman would have) could be turned off. I'm kind of thinking there's a -0 version of Always On there, which has the tradeoff of sometimes messing up one's Secret ID ("Okay, this guy's about to punch me in the chin, I have to remember to flinch." or "Must not flip the burgers with my bare hand.") vs sometimes getting caught with your invulnerable pants down.

[Trebuchet]

The odd thing is, Armor and Damage Resistance (if we can assume these are the defensive powers Superman would have) could be turned off. I'm kind of thinking there's a -0 version of Always On there, which has the tradeoff of sometimes messing up one's Secret ID ("Okay, this guy's about to punch me in the chin, I have to remember to flinch." or "Must not flip the burgers with my bare hand.") vs sometimes getting caught with your invulnerable pants down.Oh, absolutely. There are a lot of Powers and Talents (and Characteristics for that matter) that even if technically invisible would endanger a Secret ID if publicly displayed. Even a superhuman DEX could cause problems.

In our campaign, we've always assumed that my character Zl'f cannot pass as a normal when she's in her OIHID DEX 43 SPD 9 mode. She simply doesn't move like a normal human at that point; and it's impossible to disguise it unless she literally doesn't move.

[Killer Shrike]

I was presented with the following and told that the OIHID (Only In Hero Id) effect allows a character to look different enough that no one would recognize them in their hero id because they took the OIHID and applied its "special effects" to allow them to look different.

I said to do that you would need to take Shape Shift

You're wrong, they are right. Shape Shift is about sensory deception not looking distinctive; i.e. you use Shape Shift to fool people not to look cool.


i.e. -- Mystique has Shape Shift, Colossus does not.

That's not to say that Colossus necessarily has OIHID however. He might. He might also have something as simple as VISIBLE (-1/4) applied to a Power Construct built on Armor. Armor is not normally Visible as it is a 0 END Persistent Power. Having metal skin on the other hand is visible and thus can take the appropriately named Visible Lim. There are other more esoteric ways to build Colossus as well; the point is anyway you slice it he usually works out rating a point discount from somewhere because unlike some other supers who are super all the time, he isn't (at least, old school Colossus).

[Killer Shrike]

So he can become metal...ala Colossus? If so, then that's shapeshift or even a transform of some kind. OHID is usually reserved for characters with a focus that allows them to transform into their Hero ID. Take my Energy Projector El Sol. He found wristbands of a priest of Huichilobos (most likely spelled wrong sorry). When he utters the command "Yo Soy El Sol" and clashes those wristbands together he becomes an avatar of the Aztec God of the Sun. Complete with traditional dress, Mask, etc. They used to call that "Instant Change" but now that's considered a form of "transform". All his powers though are OIHId because they are just wristbands unless you perform the gesture and incantations.

This is categorically incorrect. Focus is the Focus Lim. OIHID is a wholly distinct and separate Lim. They are two different things; you might want to read the relevant sections of the book and refamiliarize yourself with them.

[boomer]

This is categorically incorrect. Focus is the Focus Lim. OIHID is a wholly distinct and separate Lim. They are two different things; you might want to read the relevant sections of the book and refamiliarize yourself with them.

Thanks KS...will do. It's been awhile since I created that character. I did make his wristbands as Foci and built his EC-Sun Powers based on them. Although I believe I added OIHID as a limitation on the EC....but not on the Foci. Was that a correct build? It seemed logical at the time.

"A power cannot take both OIHID and a Focus Limitation. However, you can use OIHID to simulate characters who seem to have a Focus, but somehow never lose it." (5er, p302).

Just noticed this item from Stevezilla's post. So then how should I have built my wristband foci then? The endow the wearer with Environmental Control-Sun Powers; these include: Flight, EB, FF and Transform (Instant change from normal person to avatar of the Aztec Sun God). But until the person says the incantation and uses the gesture (smashing the two bands together) then undergoes the transformation, the powers are inert. So they are OIHID..........help me correct this guy......

[Tonio]

I look at it this way.

Colossus merely activates his powers (Visible Armor linked with visible Life Support, extra Strength). Since virtually nothing can stop him from going from Peter to Colossus, he gets no point break. Also in this category is the Human Torch (Johnny Storm).

The Human Torch gets OIHID, not because he can be prevented from using his power, but because his power is only usable while in his Heroic ID. Moreover, being in his Heroic ID can cause problems (stuff burns around him, he can't shake someone's hand without hurting them, etc.), therefore he gets a cost break for it. Some OIHIDs might not be worth any points, specifically if they don't inconvenience the character. In these cases, it might not even be worth the trouble to write it down on the character sheet.

Basically, if you can only use a power in your Heroic ID, you can take OIHID. If this presents some sort of problem, you get a cost break out of it. Compare, for example, Always On. Sure, you can take Always On on your Life Support: Self-contained Breathing. But you won't get any points from it (it'd be a -0 Limitation).

Additionally, having a power with OIHID doesn't give you a Heroic ID. OIHID is really a specific case of Conditional Power. "Conditional Power: Only At Night" doesn't give you the ability to make day into night... OIHID doesn't give you the ability to go into your Heroic ID.

[CrosshairCollie]

The Human Torch gets OIHID, not because he can be prevented from using his power, but because his power is only usable while in his Heroic ID. Moreover, being in his Heroic ID can cause problems (stuff burns around him, he can't shake someone's hand without hurting them, etc.), therefore he gets a cost break for it. Some OIHIDs might not be worth any points, specifically if they don't inconvenience the character. In these cases, it might not even be worth the trouble to write it down on the character sheet.

That's just having his Damage Shield up, which he can simply turn off. He can't be prevented from flaming on unless he's underwater (see: Not When Immersed In Water limitation). If for some reason he *had* to have his Damage Shield on to use any of his powers, which last I knew he doesn't, he might qualify for such. As is, the only power he can't use without being aflame is Flight (which would have the Linked limitation).

[Mr Reasonable]

OIHID is a limitation. It presents you with some difficulty in activating your powers. It does not cause a change of appearance.

Activating a power CAN be defined as changing your appearance. Generally I am happy to let people be more or less unrecogniseable in 'hero id', although people who know them well or have studied them might discern clues. What power activation cannot do, in my book, is make you look like someone specific - i.e. the only way it can be used to fool someone is to make them think that secret ID you and hero ID you are not the same person - apparently.

Shapeshift allows you to fool people. Rather unfortunately the basic version only allows a single other shape - which is why this problem arises. What I would say is this though - if you activate a power you might well look different but it is obvious that you are using powers. I would not allow power activation to simply change you into another person; if you use shapeshift to look like someone else then it isn't obvious that you are using a power (well, TECHNICALLY there should be visible sfx for shapeshift, but I largely ignore that as silly).

I think we can often do without OIHID. If you need a magic word to transform, pick your biggest power that wil always be in use, buy it with incantations, then link everything else to it. If you need a magic ring to tranform, take a focus limitation on the same basis, but halve it as you only need the focus to tranform. If it just takes a while, take extra time to activate on one power, and link the rest to it.

[Tonio]

That's just having his Damage Shield up, which he can simply turn off. He can't be prevented from flaming on unless he's underwater (see: Not When Immersed In Water limitation). If for some reason he *had* to have his Damage Shield on to use any of his powers, which last I knew he doesn't, he might qualify for such. As is, the only power he can't use without being aflame is Flight (which would have the Linked limitation).

Ah ok. I was basing my argument on his Heroic ID requiring his Damage Shield. Or actually BEING his Damage Shield.

[boomer]

OIHID is a limitation. It presents you with some difficulty in activating your powers. It does not cause a change of appearance.

Activating a power CAN be defined as changing your appearance. Generally I am happy to let people be more or less unrecogniseable in 'hero id', although people who know them well or have studied them might discern clues. What power activation cannot do, in my book, is make you look like someone specific - i.e. the only way it can be used to fool someone is to make them think that secret ID you and hero ID you are not the same person - apparently.

Shapeshift allows you to fool people. Rather unfortunately the basic version only allows a single other shape - which is why this problem arises. What I would say is this though - if you activate a power you might well look different but it is obvious that you are using powers. I would not allow power activation to simply change you into another person; if you use shapeshift to look like someone else then it isn't obvious that you are using a power (well, TECHNICALLY there should be visible sfx for shapeshift, but I largely ignore that as silly).

I think we can often do without OIHID. If you need a magic word to transform, pick your biggest power that wil always be in use, buy it with incantations, then link everything else to it. If you need a magic ring to tranform, take a focus limitation on the same basis, but halve it as you only need the focus to tranform. If it just takes a while, take extra time to activate on one power, and link the rest to it.

Your last part answered my question. So I can do without the OIHID on the wristbands and just keep the Incantations and Gestures.......

[SteveZilla]

Thanks KS...will do. It's been awhile since I created that character. I did make his wristbands as Foci and built his EC-Sun Powers based on them. Although I believe I added OIHID as a limitation on the EC....but not on the Foci. Was that a correct build? It seemed logical at the time.

"A power cannot take both OIHID and a Focus Limitation. However, you can use OIHID to simulate characters who seem to have a Focus, but somehow never lose it." (5er, p302).

Just noticed this item from Stevezilla's post. So then how should I have built my wristband foci then? The endow the wearer with Environmental Control-Sun Powers; these include: Flight, EB, FF and Transform (Instant change from normal person to avatar of the Aztec Sun God). But until the person says the incantation and uses the gesture (smashing the two bands together) then undergoes the transformation, the powers are inert. So they are OIHID..........help me correct this guy......

There are a couple of ways this could be built. You could make the Aztec Sun God Avatar a form using Multiform, then buy the Multiform power with OIF, Gestures (to start power), and Incantations(to start power). This is especially appropriate if there are significant personality/knowledge differences between the two (to the point of needing different Psych and Social Limitations).

Or you can treat the armbands and the whole Avatar as OIHID (along with the Gestures & Incantations to start). The Armbands, while *appearing* to be a focus, are only a special effect (I.e., they don't get taken away or damaged nearly as often as something built with Focus would).

I think most GM's wouldn't object to this sort of build, though it's not as technically correct as the Multiform. For instance, if the Heroic ID has a Constant Power (like Force Field, for instance) that is OIHID, Gestures to start, Incantations to start, what happens if the character is stunned? While he doesn't revert to normal ID, the force field would turn off. Then technically, to start it again, he'd have to do the Gestures & Incantations again, even though he was still in OIHID.

[boomer]

There are a couple of ways this could be built. You could make the Aztec Sun God Avatar a form using Multiform, then buy the Multiform power with OIF, Gestures (to start power), and Incantations(to start power). This is especially appropriate if there are significant personality/knowledge differences between the two (to the point of needing different Psych and Social Limitations).

Or you can treat the armbands and the whole Avatar as OIHID (along with the Gestures & Incantations to start). The Armbands, while *appearing* to be a focus, are only a special effect (I.e., they don't get taken away or damaged nearly as often as something built with Focus would).

I think most GM's wouldn't object to this sort of build, though it's not as technically correct as the Multiform. For instance, if the Heroic ID has a Constant Power (like Force Field, for instance) that is OIHID, Gestures to start, Incantations to start, what happens if the character is stunned? While he doesn't revert to normal ID, the force field would turn off. Then technically, to start it again, he'd have to do the Gestures & Incantations again, even though he was still in OIHID.

No constant powers......and if he's stunned he doesn't revert nor would he need to do gestures and incantations...that's only to transform into El Sol. The rest sounds good though. Thank you Sir.