Origin 'Disadvantages'

[Mr Reasonable]

Here's something for you to consider. In a given campaign you can have a number of specific origin types. You could, for instance, have mutants, aliens, magical creatures, undead, highly trained humans and super science.

One thing that always niggles me a little about Hero is the lack of consistency; magical creatures should have some things in common - perhaps they cannot pass magical barriers (even if they should be strong enough to break through) and can be banished (at least temporarily) by a dispel (summon).

Mutants might all be light sensitive and have white eyes.

The details are up to the GM.

Now, the idea is simply this; create a set of parameters for each origin. This might include both in-game effects (all undead are susceptible to direct sun light, perhaps) and meta-game effects (highly trained humans cannot exceed 8DC of damage unless they purchase a focus, for example).

Each new character is required to specify their campaign origin, and they take a 50 point disadvantage. This reflects the limitations that the character has both in build and play, which will be in part at least, game world knowledge - an opponent with the right KS who realises you are an alien will know that you are vulnerable to cold attacks, for example.

Ideally all origins should be balanced to 50 points, but they could vary if that proved impractical. Disadvantages are rarely precisely point balanced anyway; this is basically a disadvantage package deal.

This won't work for every campaign, but it might well inject a little structure into some games which will provide a framework for building characters, and also allow the players to make certain assumptions about characters they meet. It could be a lot of work to set up, and some people will rail against the restrictions on their liberty.

[Alibear]

Many campaigns will start off with package deals for PC's but for many campaigns the GM just won't have the time or the forsight to list all this stuff.

Sure It would be nice and as a campaign developes you can start to add that sort of stuff but I persoanlly wouldn't and couldn't invest the time needed for that off the bat.

I've noticed though that as I GM I make a decision about something and usually stick with that and build an internal consistancy that way instead of making loads of decisions up front.

In my Fantasy campaign world Vampirism is just a very specific form of magic use following very, very strict guidelines & costums. No-one but the original Vampire/ Necromancer, Vlad Hann von Hannenheim, knows this. Not any other magicians alive and not the player characters or players themselves have put the pieces together yet. I've hinted at it and left a few clues but nobody has made the leap yet.


Published campaign worlds by HERO do have this kind of detail I notice.

[NestorDRod]

I was going to say, what you're describing sounds pretty much like Package Deals. Or at least what they were designed to address.

The trick is to make sure the PDs are not so restrictive you end up with "cookie-cutter" builds.

I remember having a discussion like this some time back when talking about the Brave New World RPG, with its use of power archetypes, and converting the campaign concept into Hero. Each archetype could be defined using a PD that a player would use when creating his or her character.

[Tonio]

The thing with HERO is... it's not a game, it's a toolkit. It's not inconsistent in its treatment of "origins" or "backgrounds"... it doesn't deal with those, at all. Rather it gives the GM the tools to do that. What you're describing is a great way to handle it. You could probably extend it to actual Package Deals (all Magical Creatures intrinsically know about the Magical World (KS: Magical World), all Undead are resistant to Mental attacks (MD), etc.).

[Sean Waters]

I'm psychotic enough to hand out characters I've built to players, so they tend to be consistently built and choice is not an issue. I'm often thoroughly confused when a GM writes a game and THEN the players come up with characters; clearly there is no overall plan involved, there can't be any interaction between teh characters and the game - it was done the wrong way round. Sure a great GM can adapt to pretty much anything and invent on the fly, but the guy is already doing the majority of the work. Perhaps it is up to great players not to get prissy about creative rights.

I've obviously been away taking bitter lessons.

[Killer Shrike]

Here's something for you to consider. In a given campaign you can have a number of specific origin types. You could, for instance, have mutants, aliens, magical creatures, undead, highly trained humans and super science.

One thing that always niggles me a little about Hero is the lack of consistency; magical creatures should have some things in common - perhaps they cannot pass magical barriers (even if they should be strong enough to break through) and can be banished (at least temporarily) by a dispel (summon).

Mutants might all be light sensitive and have white eyes.

The details are up to the GM.

Now, the idea is simply this; create a set of parameters for each origin. This might include both in-game effects (all undead are susceptible to direct sun light, perhaps) and meta-game effects (highly trained humans cannot exceed 8DC of damage unless they purchase a focus, for example).

Each new character is required to specify their campaign origin, and they take a 50 point disadvantage. This reflects the limitations that the character has both in build and play, which will be in part at least, game world knowledge - an opponent with the right KS who realises you are an alien will know that you are vulnerable to cold attacks, for example.

Ideally all origins should be balanced to 50 points, but they could vary if that proved impractical. Disadvantages are rarely precisely point balanced anyway; this is basically a disadvantage package deal.

This won't work for every campaign, but it might well inject a little structure into some games which will provide a framework for building characters, and also allow the players to make certain assumptions about characters they meet. It could be a lot of work to set up, and some people will rail against the restrictions on their liberty.

The idea is if you want such a set up for one or more of your settings, _you_ make them to suit your preferences. Other people want different things (or nothing like that at all) and the game supports them too.

If you want to do Origins (http://www.killershrike.com/Metacyber/MetaCyberCharacters_Origins.aspx) for a particular campaign, then feel free to define them. If you want to do templates just make some Packages (and / or use the ones in supplements or provided by others online).

The HERO System is just that -- a SYSTEM of mechanics. You use it to express the concepts that are right for the campaigns you want to run.

[Doc Democracy]

I've obviously been away taking bitter lessons.

Welcome back Mr Waters, I've missed your distinct contribution to our diversity...

As for the matter in hand, I do think that the most conscientious of GMs will spend a month or so pre-game putting in place the important things that should make his/her life easier in the future.

In reality, most of us muddle through making decisions on the fly that we codify later, when we have time.

It is not a bug in the Hero System, it is a definite feature and one that is necessary for the system to do what it is intended to do.

So if, in your game, you want all magical creatures to be susceptible to a dispel ritual that may be performed by anyone with the relevant knowledge then you insist on that feature for anyone creating a magical PC - obviously you will include that in all the magical creatures you create.

There is no need to do the math - this is a baseline from which everything is built - simply stipulate what the rules are.

Players may want to build a magical creature that cannot be dispelled in this fashion. In that case they buy a defence to it - which would cost the same points that the physical limitation would have if it had been written on the character sheet. They are buying off that limitation just as someone who wants a character that is essentially human but can breathe under water buys the ability to do so.

Player characters are special, they break the rules but in Hero they pay points to do so....

:D


Doc

[Sean Waters]

Thank you, thank you. I'll try to be constructively diverse.

The Hero Mechanics System is indeed a whole lot of possibility, but without some parameters that is not a whole lot of use, hence we have origin books and such. They provide a structure.

Now to build a particular character type we have traditionally used package deals (which are no longer 'deals', and should just be called packages). I think the idea here is that we could use up some of that flapping disadvantage allowance by defining an origin which then sets parameters for the character. You'd create a character within the parameters you have decided. No 'positive purchases', no required skills or abilities, just a common basis of parameters: it would be nice, as a player, to be able to comment; someone that strong has either got to be a demi-god or a mutant...to actually have some reference within a game.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the mechanics system should be so constrained, but it is useful shorthand for defining a campaign setting, and thus a useful tool and Hero is, above (or to the right of) everything, a toolkit.

[Chris Goodwin]

Here's something for you to consider. In a given campaign you can have a number of specific origin types. You could, for instance, have mutants, aliens, magical creatures, undead, highly trained humans and super science.

One thing that always niggles me a little about Hero is the lack of consistency; magical creatures should have some things in common - perhaps they cannot pass magical barriers (even if they should be strong enough to break through) and can be banished (at least temporarily) by a dispel (summon).

Mutants might all be light sensitive and have white eyes.

The details are up to the GM.

This is as it should be, because there is no one HERO System definition for mutants, aliens, magical creatures, undead, etc. etc. etc.

Nor is there any one HERO System definition for what is an appropriate amount of Disadvantages to apply.

All of these will differ from GM to GM.


Ideally all origins should be balanced to 50 points, but they could vary if that proved impractical. Disadvantages are rarely precisely point balanced anyway; this is basically a disadvantage package deal.

In my opinion, a package shouldn't spend more than about 1/3 of a character's points. But that's just my opinion; others may vary.