The Old Softy GM

[Blue]

I was reading the thread in the Champions forum about "Worst gaming experiences" and monster NPCs who are there to keep the characters alive when I started to think about games I've been in where the GM finds a way to keep you alive or seems to fudge rolls for about ten minutes in order to get you out of a jam.

There seems to be three factors going on: 1) The GM has woefully misjudged either the party's capability or his monster's, and now is trying to fix the problem mid-fight. 2) The player has made a bad choice and is paying the ultimate price. Rather than bring in another PC they desperately want to keep you alive or bring you back to keep things moving. 3) The classic lucky shot. The foe just got in an impossible shot and you are history. Can happen anytime.

In the last year I the first two happen.
1) A werewolf was unleashed on a brand new party of Vampire PCs. With no special weapons, no time to react, and no plan for it, I was going to be toast--as the brawler who had to step up front and intercede while everyone got their act together. Mysteriously the GM missed a bunch of rolls or rolled really bad damage.
2) A giant turned my PC into a smudge on the mountainside. I shouldn't have been that close to him, but in truth I didn't have a lot of choice but had one opportunity to pull back. But it was my fault for not getting out of there in the first round.

Kinda why I like champions. It's pretty hard to kill a guy unless you are really trying, and generally villains only "try" when they're berserk, but then they are clumsy about it.

[tkdguy]

I use the HERO system for that reason too. It's easy to say "your STUN is at zero; you're unconscious" than to do ridiculous things to keep the characters alive when it's not convenient to kill them. I just began GMing a campaign where only one out of my three players has played HERO before, and he hasn't done so in many years. Killing them all in the first game would have demoralized them and maybe discouraged them from learning the system.

On the other hand I consider it perfectly justifiable to fudge rolls to make a scene more dramatic. As the GM, it's my duty to make the game enjoyable for the players. Of course, not everyone is pleased when I use my dramatic licence, but I guess you can't please everyone all the time.

[JohnTaber]

I agree with both of you guys. That is why there are GM screens right??? ;)

[Tech]

Originally posted by JohnTaber
I agree with both of you guys. That is why there are GM screens right??? ;)

I fudge rolls here & there but when I do, nobody ever knows about it.

[Killer Shrike]

I practically never fudge rolls. The one area where I kind of gloss over rolls is Perception checks....if I want someone to notice something to further the story along or even just to see how that particular character would react (due to PsyLims I want to see if theyll play, or just morbid curiosity on my part), then they just notice it -- I just drop three dice behind the screen and autopass the PER check, nod my head reflectively, and either tell them or pass a note depending on the exclusivity of the info.

In combat though, dice as they land. I dont set out to kill party members, but I dont pull punches either. The situation is what it is, and the players decisions have ramifications. I also dont overly medianize the opposition. NPCs are as powerful as they logically should be. so most people are total chumps, and of the antagonists some are below the PCs, some are above, and others are WAY above. I use primary antagonists that can provide a challenge to the PCs, but if they decide to go haring off to smite down Dr. Destroyer or all the Crowns of Krim at once, or some equivalent scenario in other settings, then they are going to get both barrels. I give them thier due; they might catch the good doctor by surprise at first for example, but once he breaks thier initiative, he would pull out the stops and try make an example out of them.

I think a GM should be impartial -- neither antagonistic nor altruistic. Lay the scene and then carry it out to the end. If players get the feeling that you'll pick up after them and break out the bactine and bandaids to patch up thier boo-boos, all sense of challenge will depart the game and players will just start taking ridiculous risks because they think the GM will adapt the threat to shelter them from thier own foolhardiness.

IMHO YMMV Etc :D

[Dr Lucky]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
I regularly kill PC's.

My characters had died so many times in his games. It's certainly not like I've ever brought it on myself though. ;) In my opinion, he's killed my PC far more times than my PC has killed other PCs, so its probably unfair. I think a one for one ratio would be about right, an eye for an eye.

I guess it has been a while since I've had a character die... I'm probably due. Especially now that I called him out. :D

[Tim]

Well , him killing you is your own fault. After all, aren't we supposed to "Kill Dr. Lucky" like the game says?

:D

(couldn't resist)

[Killer Shrike]

Evil chuckle......

Talk about askin for it

Actually, you havent had a PC die that often. Lets see:

Villix (Cleaved by Orcs after he jumped out alone despite other PCs attempts to stop the 80 year old wizard from certain death, yes?)

Farad (Blown to smithereens by Plasma Grenades while desolid (affected by energy fields))

Thats only twice.

Your friendly fire kill ratio:

Orbahn
Orbahn again
All of Orbahn's gear
Orbahn a third time
Sister Marifa
Your Dwarf Ranger
Jake's psionicist
Travis's Ranger
Travis's Ranger's cohort
Tragor
Elessa
a handful of allied NPCs

Other collateral damage:
Tobias was killed by a surprise attack at night because Villix, the great and powerful wizard, couldnt be bothered with spells like Alarm.

Got Tragor captured by "gerbil balling" him with a Resilient Sphere -- and he was tortured to death in captivity

Later blew up Tragor & Elessa's corpses while in the process to recovering them -- although to be fair that was actually Tobias fumbling his Open Lock check and failing to Disarm the magic trap. But I still hold you accountable -- a simple Dispel Magic and a Knock spell would have done the trick, but Villix was too busy whipping Chain Lightning and other spells that grant Reflex saves versus mid-level monks with Improved Evasion :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And of course the tac-nuke Staff of Power breaking that caused a good deal of the deaths listed above, obliterating many of your fellow PCs at -400 or so hitpoints, including your little pal Tobias's previously resurretionable corpse. And all thier equipment. And everyone elses too. In fact, that was a common enough occurance to rate its own entry.

Consistently blew up, fried, wilted, and otherwise rampantly destroyed salvagable gear and magic items on the corpses of both enemies and allies with endless AoE damage spells. Kept the party beggared because they could never replace thier ephemeral magic items, and it was only a matter of time before they got knocked unconscious in a fight only to get nuked by thier own wizard, thus loosing at least some of thier magic items and mundane equipment in the process.

Completely electrocuted beyond a shadow of medical assistance a Mr. Johnson you were supposed to get information out of, detonating his Robo-dog and nearly killing most of your team.

Electrocuted a Yakuza cyber-samurai who was only doing his job as a body guard of a crime lords cherished daughter because you were too crazy to just apologize and walk away, thus starting a massive fight causing the team to have to kill 5 more cyber-samurai, with the entire team almost dying right there -- at one point everyone except Wyatt was out cold and bleeding to death from katana strikes, and only a math error on his part kept him on his feet long enough to allow the group to recover.

This of course caused the Yakuza to mark you all for death, and totally derailed the campaign, with headhunters and Yakuza squads messing up the party at every turn (and whacking Farad, the offending character).

Then your replacement character gets off on the right foot by order policemen shot to death, trying to run over small girls in urban assault vehicles, and giving away the teams hiding place trying to work a better deal for selling them out.

Finally, as the team tries to press on and come out on top of it all, you hose up the mission plan 1 second into it -- and it was your own plan! Thus causing your other teammates to almost get killed by a killer full-conversion borg with a mini-gun who was fully alerted to your presense 1 step in the door.

Hmm.....i'd say youve gotten the better of the deal so far. The thing that amazes me is that your fellow players dont kill you and hide the body. And I dont mean your characters; I mean you :D

[Tim]

I'm glad I'm not his fellow pc.

[Killer Shrike]

Its all good for laughs :D

My favorite Ron quote: "Id like to be the leader, but people seem to think I have poor decision making skills." :D :rolleyes: :D

[WilyQuixote]

Yeah now that I think of it I do believe that I'm the only player in the group who's character has not been killed by Dr. Lucky. Thats usually because I keep my characters as far away from him as possible.;)

One thing is for sure, the games are NEVER dull with Dr. Lucky around.:)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by WilyQuixote
Yeah now that I think of it I do believe that I'm the only player in the group who's character has not been killed by Dr. Lucky. Thats usually because I keep my characters as far away from him as possible.;)

One thing is for sure, the games are NEVER dull with Dr. Lucky around.:) John's characters havent been killed by him yet, or any of the new players.

Of course, its probably only a matter of time.....

[Dr Lucky]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Evil chuckle......

Talk about askin for it

Actually, you havent had a PC die that often. Lets see:

Villix (Cleaved by Orcs after he jumped out alone despite other PCs attempts to stop the 80 year old wizard from certain death, yes?)

Farad (Blown to smithereens by Plasma Grenades while desolid (affected by energy fields))

Thats only twice.

Your friendly fire kill ratio:

Orbahn
Orbahn again
All of Orbahn's gear
Orbahn a third time
Sister Marifa
Your Dwarf Ranger
Jake's psionicist
Travis's Ranger
Travis's Ranger's cohort
Tragor
Elessa
a handful of allied NPCs

I might have to argue a few points... Villix was killed more than once, two or three times IIRC.
I wasn't the one who killed my Dwarf Ranger, that was you. I don't think either of us really wanted him around any more though, so I don't really blame you.
I'm pretty sure I didn't ever kill Sister Marifa.
While I may have indirectly been responsible for Tragor's death, I don't think I ever actually killed Elessa.

That's it, I think. On the other hand, Champions has been treating me well so far.

[Killer Shrike]

Jay and I confered on the matter and can only remember Villix actually dying the one time. He came close a few times, but someone (Tragor or Marifa) jerked him back from death's door IIRC.

You got Marifa and Elessa in the Staff of Power, along with several of the allies that were helping you guys out. I thought Raaargh the Dwarf bought it at the same time--pretty sure anyway.

Champions has been treating you well because its much more difficult to actually kill someone in the HERO System.

Although Jay did have to fudge the dice to keep you from killing Black Diamond -- she has a Vulnerability to gravitational attacks IIRC, Mr Continuous-Uncontrolled-Gravity-based-Killing-Attacks Man. I wouldnt have -- I would have had you run up for manslaughter and let your lawyers try to beat the rap. Goodby Secret ID, Hello Rep: Villain Killer. :cool:

[lemming]

Hmm. I think one of the reasons my characters tend to buy extra Body and rdef is due to how many Champions characters I've lost or killed.

There was the infamous Thanksgiving Massacre where ~14 characters died. Mostly due to "woo. nice roll there." Not a good time for Martial Artists. Lots of low to hit rolls followed by high rolls on the killing attack.
I think there were eight games with four different GMs. (1985?)

[Tim]

Originally posted by WilyQuixote
Yeah now that I think of it I do believe that I'm the only player in the group who's character has not been killed by Dr. Lucky. Thats usually because I keep my characters as far away from him as possible.;)

One thing is for sure, the games are NEVER dull with Dr. Lucky around.:)

Not to mention that Willy Coyote never dies, he just gets beaten to a pulp and comes back for more. One of these days he'll catch that Road Runner.
:p

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tim
Not to mention that Willy Coyote never dies, he just gets beaten to a pulp and comes back for more. One of these days he'll catch that Road Runner.
:p Yes, but this is Wily QUIXOTE, so he mostly just spends his time finding new idiotic ways to tilt at windmills......

[Tim]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Yes, but this is Wily QUIXOTE, so he mostly just spends his time finding new idiotic ways to tilt at windmills......

LOL :)

[Tech]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
I practically never fudge rolls.

etc etc

I think a GM should be impartial -- neither antagonistic nor altruistic. Lay the scene and then carry it out to the end. If players get the feeling that you'll pick up after them and break out the bactine and bandaids to patch up thier boo-boos, all sense of challenge will depart the game and players will just start taking ridiculous risks because they think the GM will adapt the threat to shelter them from thier own foolhardiness.

Well, here's where we disagree and I don't think this is a bad thing - it's merely a difference of playing style. Fudging rolls can be very useful in assisting the game. I can think of one game (which all my friends still remember years later) where the entire episode was futile in terms of rolling well. I have yet to see the equal of rolled 18's, missed Block manuevers and attack rolls, bad damage dice and so on. Even the GM felt bad for us. It wasn't a particularly hard episode; just one of those days for the entire group!

I think the GM should not be impartial, at least to an extent. IMHO, the game is for the players to have fun and the GM is there to set the stage for that. If the game starts to become anything other than fun for the players, why play it? Fun can be a difficult adventure, a covert episode, a silly one, a dangerous mission or whatever. Regardless of what the GM lays down for the players, if they're not having fun, I again say 'why play it?' Get together and watch tv, watch a movie, play basketball, go swimming, whatever, if the game(s) aren't enjoyable. Paraphrasing another post: your game should be more fun than the same amount of time watching tv (or something like that).

[Killer Shrike]

Append all with "In my humble opinion" :)

Without work, vacation is meaningless. Without darkness, what is light, etc etc etc

If the GM disney-fies the game to protect the party from thier own screwups, and even just bad luck, then where's the fun when things are going well? There is no difference in fact. You can never be sure if you succeeded bcs you did well or because the GM waved his wand and just "fixed it" so you'd come out on top. Personally, I wouldnt play in a game like that -- once I knew that the GM was doing this, Id not come back to thier game.

Personally I think GMs that run a "Candyland" game where everything is glossed or slanted for the PCs benefit are just encouraging very lazy roleplaying. Players dont have to try or take anything seriously because they know the GM is going to take up the slack and retcon thier actions and inactions to keep things moving along.

The heroicness and fun to my mind comes from surmounting odds that you know to be "real" or perhaps "enforced" is the better term in this context. You know that its on you and when you pull it off despite the resistance, thats when the feeling of accomplishment and a job well done sets in.

The reward is inversely measurable by the effort expended to attain it.

But, as you say, this is just a preference thing.

[Tech]

My humblest apologies on the last post. So, I start this one with:

In my humble opinion...

I don't recall saying anything about Disney-fying (new word?), sugarcoating, Candylanding (another new word! :) ) or making every episode easy. Nope, never said that. I did however, emphasize that there are times when a GM should step in to help the adventure along, and (as I've run into) generally are not due to players making dumb moves or trying to protect them. When the dice are totally against the players, give them a nudge. When the players (not PCs) are becoming frustrated, it's no longer fun and they will stop playing. It's happened once or twice in a game I was in and it wasn't pretty.

This doesn't mean that the players are acting like babies, it means they're human. Sometimes as a GM, our plots are so obvious to us, but unfortunately are like a stone wall to the players. Sometimes the dice hate us and it's just one of those days. Maybe a player's tired and can't think, etc etc etc.

My point regardless, is that the game be fun for the players. If a GM's helping it here and there makes it fun, so be it. If your players do fine by themselves and have fun, great. If the game just isn't going well and a GM says 'Sink or swim, I'm not helping.', I'd think the GM would pick up their friends/players as a Hunted. Killer Shrike, so you know, I do agree with you, at least in part. However, we don't see eye-to-eye on this and that's cool: it means we have different players with different mentalities who enjoy two different GM styles. Whether one GM steps in and another one doesn't is fine - all so long as everyone enjoys themselves at the game session. As I've said before 'If you're not having fun, why play?'

[Dr Lucky]

As much as I gave Killer Shrike crap about my PC deaths, I know that I had them coming. I don't remember ever seeing a PC die i one of his games (HERO, D&D, or other) unless they did one of two things: Made a poor decision, or wandered to close to my character (Which is really a type or poor decision.)

Historically, KS's players seem to have been generally poor decision makers. I remember a story where the one competant player in KS's group was allowed to take another PC as a DNPC, simply because this other player made so many poor decisions. This was before I joined the group, so I missed out on him, but I can totally see it happening.

I can understand where Shrike's attitude of punishing stupidity has come from, and I think that I've learned from my mistakes, though I don't know about some of the others. I'm away from the group for the summer, but I hear we got a big crop of new players. Hopefully, they're doing better than some in the past have.

[tkdguy]

Make the players sweat, but remember to give them a break. It's okay if you kill a character or two once in a while, but don't go out of your way to do so. Also, don't have a set script from which the playes may not deviate. On the other hand, don't just plop the characters in your world and leave them without an adventure hook to get them started. I know a few people whose games I will not join because they do these things.

I see the game as a play or a movie. The GM is the producer, the director, the head writer, the props designer, and the supporting cast. The players are the stars, the assistant writers, and the audience. The goal is to entertain the players. Play by the book, but feel free to fudge a couple of rolls if doing so tells a good story.

Case in point, I once ran a Castle Falkenstein game, where I introduced a villain. After the big battle, the villain attempted to make his escape. One of the heroes chased after him. After a long and convoluted chase scene, the villain was nowhere in sight. Realistically, the villain should not have had the stamina to evade the hero. But it created drama. And the player, disappointed though he was at not catching the villain, enjoyed the scene anyway. And I had a villain who would return to torment the heroes in the future.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by lemming
Hmm. I think one of the reasons my characters tend to buy extra Body and rdef is due to how many Champions characters I've lost or killed.

There was the infamous Thanksgiving Massacre where ~14 characters died. Mostly due to "woo. nice roll there." Not a good time for Martial Artists. Lots of low to hit rolls followed by high rolls on the killing attack.
I think there were eight games with four different GMs. (1985?)

Actually, I think my PC died due to reentry and terminal velocity...

I think it was 1986.

[Blue]

I haven't been back to read this thread since I started it. That was highly entertaining :D

I find that among our group, the #1 Cause of PC Death: Other players and "intense roleplaying". It's pretty common to have one character turn on another for personality conflicts.

The #2 Reason (my main means of death): Boredom. Yup. Boredom. In two cases I played warriors. Because we were fighting things way the hell over our heads, it all required subtlety and spell-casters. When it finally (FINALLY!) got down to a fight I could participate in, instead of letting the mages do everything, I was out-classed, but I just didn't care anymore. Splat! Mop 'im up with a sponge.

When it comes to the GM killing characters in our group that's rare. Mostly because they do fudging when it comes down to it. And in Champions it hasn't even been an issue, so far.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

If the GM disney-fies the game to protect the party from thier own screwups, and even just bad luck, then where's the fun when things are going well? There is no difference in fact. You can never be sure if you succeeded bcs you did well or because the GM waved his wand and just "fixed it" so you'd come out on top. Personally, I wouldnt play in a game like that -- once I knew that the GM was doing this, Id not come back to thier game.


Again IMHO....

I look at it just the other way. I play for fun, and for characterization, not for puzzle solving or to use tactics in combat. The fun for me is to feel the emotions my character is feeling. We watch movies like Die hard... we know John McClain insn't going to fail, we know he will win, the fun is how. Conversely to your point- If my dice hate me that session, and I lose, or worse a character dies just because of bad die rolls, a character I spend tens or hundreds of hours on, where is the fun in that. If I had a GM who let things like that happen, I'd likely leave.

I have plenty of challenges to overcome in the real world, things I have to work at.. I don't want to surmount odds in my gaming. I want to slip on this other persona, and enjoy his life- total escapism. Sure I'll work up a sweat for an emotional reaction, but there does not have to be a challenge for that, just the situation to react to.

[Killer Shrike]

My favorite movies are the ones where you are not entirely sure who's going to make it till the end. It heightens suspense. Shoot em up action movies like Die Hard dont really do it for me bcs its difficult to be sympathetic to a character that is obviously going to win. I prefer a movie like the Usual Suspects or LA Confidential where main characters get offed unexpectedly.

Its why I prefer writers like Gemmel, Feist, and Martin -- bcs you never know who is going to die or when.


IMO if game-fixing is going on, you might as well just script your actions. Sit down with the GM and write a collaborative book together in other words. Where's the fun in that?

No-risk games just leave me cold. If I dont think that my character is really in any risk, it robs him of his heroism. Without the chance of death or defeat, there is nothing for my character to actually surmount, and therefore there is no bravery or heroism involved. For instance, I dont find Superman very heroic because hes too "Super" -- you know that nothing bad is ever really going to happen to him. I prefered comics like The New Warriors or just about any line of Valiant comics, where the heroes did get messed up, screwed over, and discounted. It made their actions seem much more heroic, because they came at a price.

IMO, etc

[Killer Shrike]

As a parrallel, I never play video games "in god mode" for example. I figure, whats the point? No risk = no reward. IMO, etc

[Tech]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
IMO if game-fixing is going on, you might as well just script your actions. Sit down with the GM and write a collaborative book together in other words. Where's the fun in that?


Actually, I've already written a small superhero novel with our characters in it for my friends and brothers. :) I might go back to a previous one I never finished and have put a third one on hold for now. Sorry but I'm not giving out copies to anyone except my friends.

I enjoy both suspense where you're not sure if the hero's going to make it, as well as those movies/games where suspect or know the hero will. Both are fun to me. As for killing heroes, it simply is not fun to spend hours putting together statistics and an origin only to have them bumped off casually.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
My favorite movies are the ones where you are not entirely sure who's going to make it till the end. It heightens suspense. I prefer a movie like the Usual Suspects or LA Confidential where main characters get offed unexpectedly.

Its why I prefer writers like Gemmel, Feist, and Martin -- bcs you never know who is going to die or when.

For instance, I dont find Superman very heroic because hes too "Super" -- you know that nothing bad is ever really going to happen to him. I prefered comics like The New Warriors or just about any line of Valiant comics, where the heroes did get messed up, screwed over, and discounted. It made their actions seem much more heroic, because they came at a price.


Cool. I can respect your opinions.

I don't think we should ever play together though ;) I skipped both the movies you mentioned for those reasons. that is why I hated Pay it Forward, loved the rest of the movie hated the last 15 minutes.I read the first Fiest series, but all the torture that the characters go though really turned me off. I've skipped the other authors you cite for those reasons- although I have a friend who is really trying to get me to read Martin.

I love Superman. I stopped reading the Teen Titans recent relaunch and skip most Marvel titles because I don't want to have characters I like to read getting screwed over.

Different ends of the spectrum I suppose.

[Killer Shrike]

Heh...yep. Its all kewl though.

But you should definitely avoid Robin Hobbs. Her main characters are almost Job like in their travails -- 1 bad turn after another -- :D

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Heh...yep. Its all kewl though.

But you should definitely avoid Robin Hobbs. Her main characters are almost Job like in their travails -- 1 bad turn after another -- :D

Yeah. I was mostly speaking in generalites, I do like the occasional ultra tense movie and book... After all Stephen R Donaldson is my favorite writer and boy does he torture his characters.

But in gaming (and comics) I want total escapism. :D

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
Yeah. I was mostly speaking in generalites, I do like the occasional ultra tense movie and book... After all Stephen R Donaldson is my favorite writer and boy does he torture his characters.

But in gaming (and comics) I want total escapism. :D And there we differ again. I cant make myself finish the first book of the Thomas Covenant series. I HATED it. At one point I actually threw the book across the room it pissed me off so much. It left such a bad taste in my mouth Ive never been able to bring myself to read his other books. I really disliked his world building and I couldnt stand his main character.

Gemmel is escapist by the way -- he's like the Louis L'Amour of Fantasy. Tight, concise, fun to read, gritty, and a tad formulaic. You should give him a try.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Gemmel is escapist by the way -- he's like the Louis L'Amour of Fantasy. Tight, concise, fun to read, gritty, and a tad formulaic. You should give him a try.

I'm a huge Gemmel fan; I have every one of his books, many of them in the original UK editions. That said, he's "a little formulaic" in the same way that Wilt Chamberlain was "a little promiscuous."

But it is a great set of formulas. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by OddHat
I'm a huge Gemmel fan; I have every one of his books, many of them in the original UK editions. That said, he's "a little formulaic" in the same way that Wilt Chamberlain was "a little promiscuous."
Same here; Ive got all of the books that have been released here in the US. Im particularly fond of the Rigante series.

Originally posted by OddHat
But it is a great set of formulas. :)
Thats what me and one of my friends that is also a big fan always say. Formulaic yes, but what a fomula!

Heres a listmania list I put up on amazon a couple years back:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/GGMLODRZ84BV/ref=cm_aya_av.lm_more/102-7638380-6951330

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Heres a listmania list I put up on amazon a couple years back:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/GGMLODRZ84BV/ref=cm_aya_av.lm_more/102-7638380-6951330

Interesting. Our bookshelves don't overlap that much. I'll check out a few of your picks.

Master of the Five Magics was an absolutely great book. Wonderful magic system.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
At one point I actually threw the book across the room it pissed me off so much. It left such a bad taste in my mouth Ive never been able to bring myself to read his other books. I really disliked his world building and I couldnt stand his main character.

If you decide you want to try reading him, try the mordants need books. The main character has no self esteem, and is somewhat weak (but at least she is not whiney like Thomas) but she has some serious character growth through the books. A lot of people I know that hated Covenant liked those.

And to illustrate how messed up I was in high school, when I first read those books, I had never in my life up to that point read a character I identified so strongly with as I did with Covenant.
As the years pass, and I've dealth with issues and Clinical Depression, when I reread them, I find myself identifying more with my "namesake" Mhoram.

I'll give Gemmel a try. I've heard good things about him. I'll try any book or writer once. That is how I had the misfortune to end up reading Hienlien, the Elric books and Fritz Lieber.


Edit: Killershrike, you have Pheonix Guard book on your list. Anyone who likes that series is tops in my book. :-)

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
...NPCs are as powerful as they logically should be. so most people are total chumps, and of the antagonists some are below the PCs, some are above, and others are WAY above. I use primary antagonists that can provide a challenge to the PCs, but if they decide to go haring off to smite down Dr. Destroyer or all the Crowns of Krim at once, or some equivalent scenario in other settings, then they are going to get both barrels. I give them thier due; they might catch the good doctor by surprise at first for example, but once he breaks thier initiative, he would pull out the stops and try make an example out of them...

That tends to be my approach too, though if the players are attempting to bite off way more than they can chew, I do tend to drop some heavy hints at least before they commit themselves, something like:

Me: "The infamous death priests of Xanthia are notorious for their mastery of necromancy and death magic, many mighty warriors have died horribly in the attempt to end their savage reign of terror."

Player: "Well they haven't had the power of Magnet's unstoppable battleaxe to deal with before!"

Me: "You would consider yourselves mere babies compared to some of the legendary warriors who have tried and failed!"

If they still don't get the hint then, well... bring on the body bags. I fudge die rolls only when I feel it's absolutely necessary to the game.

[Farkling]

Sometimes I fudge, sometimes I don't....

looking back at it, I am much more lenient with newbies than experienced roleplayers. If I hit the experienced storyteller in the head with a lead balloon, and he goes on a suicide mission, well, the dice fall as the dice fall.

The new player might just be stupid. So I will occasionally fudge...for survival.

However, experienced roleplayers from other systems may or may not be saved. Our FIRST superhero game with the Forgotten Realms crowd almost killed one of the PC's directly, and a second one in the fallout. Heck 'n' Slash mentality. I can't pull punches against a "kill them all and let God sort them out attitude", I want to discourage that. :)

Needless to say, she is a relatively new player and she WAS playng in character. Her Psych limit says "mostly invulnerable" (she's a comix Rogue fan). She dove off the tenth floor of the hotel and did a move through on the Mark I Terminator that the martial artist tossed out the window. The impact vaporized about a 1.5 Hex deep crater by the pool, and cracked the containment on the fusion bottle. She took some STUN from the impact, but was relatively uninjured until the bottle destabilized and exploded. I forgot she was vulnerable to radiation. Oh, let's see, she was at -55 STUN and -3 BODY after that. Luckily the ArchAngel has a block Aid ability... The worst part of this from the players point of view is that she was unconscious when she was healed. She still thinks she's invulnerable. Tune in next week for the update.... :)