Why are martial arts so expensive?

[Dauntless]

I think a decent modeling of a real world black belt would take around about 30 character points to achieve, but this seems rather high. Since the Hero System grades on the basis of how much a power or effect helps a character, it seems like this is extremely costly compared to other powers. For example, for 30points, you can buy a 2d6 HKA which boosted by strength will more than likely by 3d6 or more. Most martial arts moves don't increase DC by more than 4 (most only +2DC with some OCV or DCV bonuses), so it only minimally increases damage, and the net OCV/DCV bonuses penalties usually cancel each other out.

You can get some neat moves which allow for NND attacks (choke holds or nerve strikes), and a martial artist can make his attack killing (pressure points or joint breaks) as well as offer increased DCV versus attacks, and allow for other combat techniques like disarming or superior grabbing. But 30points to simulate all the moves a typical black belt would know seems pretty high given the only small benefits provided by open-handed combat. Now, when a WF is added to the mix, I think it does become fairly effective, since you can add the martial bonuses to the weapon attack (paying 5pts to increase an attack by 4DC is pretty good). But bare-handed, I just don't think it's cost-balanced.

Also, even 30points can be somewhat limiting in terms of techniques that would be possessed by skilled practitioners. Most styles will have taught literally hundreds of techniques after a period of about 3 years...of those hundreds, scores will have enough differing characteristics to the move (in Hero terms) to make them unique enough to be made into new techniques. I know that UMA says that a technique like Fast Strike can be represented conceptually by two or more attacks (say a quick snap kick or a fast jab), but this still isn't comprehensive enough to allow for all the varied techniques a high level practitioner would know.

I was thinking of allowing Martial Arts moves moves to essentially be bought with some kind of bonus, maybe even halving the cost of the all the moves that are bought (so if you buy 30points of techniques, it'll actually only cost you 15). I definitely feel this is appropriate for Martial Art genres, and possibly appropriate for other heroic level campaigns. For Superheroes, it's iffy, but many martial powers and techniques can be simulated with powers themselves, so I'd be more leery of allowing the discount.

Does anyone else feel martial moves are too expensive?

[sbarron]

No, I don't think that MA are too expensive. But I also don't think of the manuevers the same way as you do, and I realize that has something to do with it. For me, Martial Strike could represent dozens of actual striking maneuvers for a very skilled martial artist, or it could just be the right cross from a decent street fighter. EIther way, in and of itself it only costs 4 points. 4 points for for +2d6 HA, and +2 DCV. That's not too shabby.

I would also disagree with you that your average black belt would have 30 points worth of manuervers. I would say the average black belt would have between 10 and 15 points of moves. There might be a few MA that would have 30 pts of MA moves, but not many. 30 Pts of Moves is definitely super hero MAist, and he can do a lot more with those 30 points than your average BB because of his Dex and Spd.

I don't know if either of us have the "intended official" idea behind MA points or not. I just thought I would share how I think of MA, and how different my view is than yours.

[Rene]

I feel that most Martial Arts maneuvers, taken *individually*, are too cheap for the beneficts they offer. If you deconstruct the maneuvers and try to build them with powers and CSLs, they'd cost a little more. And I don't think it's true that the CV bonuses "usually cancel each other out". The net benefict of most maneuvers as compared to non-skilled combatants is +2 OCV or +2 DCV.

Now, if there's something I agree with you is that the more points you invest in Martial Arts, the bigger the risk of buying redundant abilities, so in the end of the day maybe you're paying too much. Maybe.

Anyway, I'm not a martial artist in RL and I'm not overly worried about a hyper-realistic simulation of martial arts (or any other subject, for that matter), so I'm not the best person to comment about how many maneuvers you'd have to take to make a "realistic black belt". I'm happy with the system (or most of it) as it is.

[Blue]

I generally buy 4-5 manuvers in order to give the impression of martial arts and I rarely concern myself with adhering to a "style", since few of my players would know the difference (me included). So I'm typically looking at 18-20pts for the average character (NPC) I make for my campaign. I don't buy many abilities that overlap. For their money they wind up with a manuver that benefits their attack with better damage and OCV, an attack that helps their DCV, a defensive manuver, an NND or Killing ability, and a throw or disarm. That's pretty well rounded and gives a number of benefits for a mere 20pts.

It really is when you get into a character that needs to simulate dozens of abilities that you start seeing the overlap and the lack of benefit from redundant abilities.

[Killer Shrike]

I completely disagree. I think MAs are pretty close to perfect as is. Ive run Martial Artists up and down the points scale and Ive always been satisfied with thier cost to effectiveness ratio.

As an aside, I think a TRULY effective super MA should have around 50-75 points in manuevers and extra DC, but a heroic MA can be pretty impressive with between 10 and 25 points, depending on how prevalent Martial Arts are in the campaign.

Even if it takes 30 points in your estimation to make a real "Black Belt", thats still likely to be much better than simply buying a 2d6 HKA. More lethal no, better yes.

[Dauntless]

The thing is, I am a real martial artist in RL. I've had about 3 years of formal instruction in Shotokan, about a year in Aikido and a year in Choy Lay Fut. I also took a semester of epee/foil and a semester of sabre (hungarian style) fencing. I've also been studying and practicing on my own for nearly 22 years (I started when I was 9) and sparred with people from Greco Roman, Tai Chi, TKD, Wing Chun, Jiu-Jitsu, and Baguazhang. I even have a little bit of training in Escrima from some filipino friends who taught me (I'm part filipino myself).

So I can attest from experience that a black belt would have many many more choices available than 10-15 points. Even with the assumption that a technique as listed in FREd or UMA can be various techniques amongst different styles or even two or more different techniques from the same style, I can assure you that a good martial artists training for 3 or more years would have enough techniques of sufficient diversity that he'd have about 10 Hero System martial arts techniques if that few.

While it is true that for one manuever you do get a lot of benefits...the effects aren't cumulative. So one 5pt manuever might get you a +3DC and a +1 OCV, but that's it. The next 5pt manuever isn't going to add to that unlike other powers do. It can to a degree make a martial artist more versatile thanks to his ability to purchase killing or NND attacks as well as disarms or takedowns, but the ability to do so is at a very basic level for the most part.

In a heroic level campaign, a good martial artist with 15 STR, will probably at most do a 7d6 normal attack. Not bad...since he'll do on average 24.5 STUN and 7 BODY, enough to crack ribs of average joe blow off the street and stun him in one blow. But now let's put this character in a superheroic campaign and give him a more fitting 20 STR. Now he only does 8d6 with one of the stronger attacks...that's laughable. While you can argue that he can buy more Combat Skill Levels, or extra HTH attacks to power his attacks, he still has to pay 20-30 points for his martial style. It seems to me that the moves were balanced with the logic that the moves themselves were decently powerful enough per move, and that since they were cheap you could buy several of them to make your character's combat versatility improved. But I think that either A) they didn't make the moves powerful enough or B) they should have kept them with the same abilities, but cheapen them to make characters even more versatile. I also would have liked to see a return of the more than one exclusive element optional rules that were in the original Ninja Hero, since many moves can and do combine blocks and strikes, or throws and strikes into the same move.

I actually liked the optional martial art of buying CSL's to make a sort of VPP of martial capabilities. You might want to make a move very evasive giving great DCV bonuses, or you might want to concentrate a lot to increase your OCV> The advantage of that system is that you can create "moves" on the fly.

Another option I toyed with was to make characters be able to create manuevers on the fly much like the CSL option. The cost would be the highest maneuver x 4 with a built-in limitation....you had to buy a skill in your martial art style (if you don't already). For every move you made, you had to beat your Style skill roll, or the move would suffer a penalty point (at the GM's discretion) for each point you failed the roll. Also, the character gets his style skill/3 in "memorized techniques" and can pay 1pt to get additional memorized techniques (no matter how many points are in that manuever). So for example, if you had a karate skill of 12, and you rolled a 14 while attempting a 5pt. manuever, it would wind up being a 3pt maneuver. One point manuevers will always succeed. You would still have to roll to hit as usual by comparing OCV and DCV. This makes "black belts" have far more manuevers at their disposal. It also allows for the realistic notion that some martial artists are better "stylists" than others...meaning their techniques are more clean more often (how often have you seen reality fights with the sloppiest techniques you'd ever seen?).

[Lord Mhoram]

One of the the things I look at when trying to parse real world MA into Hero... combat applicability.
(For reference, studied Tae Kwon Do for 6 years, Aikido for a year, Kempo for a while, A little Wing Chung and a smattering of others).

Just because I can go into a studio and perform a perfect jump spinning outer crescent kick, doesn't mean I could use that manuever in a fight where things are much more chaotic, and focus is harder to achieve. While a 7th Dan's JSOC is a Sacrifice strike, mine is much slower and may likely be a haymaker. That it where the PS TKD and KS TKD comes in. I could teach every kick and punch up to black belt level, and in a studio setting I could demonstrate them; but in an actual combat situation, I wouldn't bother with the more advanced stuff, I'd be relying on my base 6 or so kicks and 6 or so hand strikes, in umpteen combinations.

I think in that respect Hero models it well. Buying the "Snap kick / Punch" from the Karate Package does not mean "I know how to snap kick", but rather, "I know how to snap kick effectively enough to use in combat". Characters that have other Karate manuevers can snap kick just fine, they just don't do it well enought to get game mechanical combat modifiers for it.

So if you include everyman manuevers and if you use optional manuevers, and three or so MA manuevers your black belt has a choice of quite a few options. Most of the many options in combat that a black belt has, is in HERO really just a lot of SFX. And you could use those special effects to give small bonuses and penalties.

[Blue Jogger]

In superhero games, it is usually more efficent power-wise to go with straight STR and DEX than several martial-arts maneuvers.

If I was building a Martial Artist, I would limit myself to basic moves (Martial Dodge, Throw, Defensive and Offensive Strike) and then go with 3 pt Levels with Martial Artist.
The best way is to use those levels and optional hit locations (if GM allows) to hit the head, vitals, or chest (high STUN areas). Or go with "+1/4 Autofire" and that way well placed shots do more damage.

Of course, that's just me. :)

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Dauntless
Even with the assumption that a technique as listed in FREd or UMA can be various techniques amongst different styles or even two or more different techniques from the same style,

Well Martial punch could convievably cover - Corkscrew, a knife hand, hammerfist, backfist, a reverse knife, a reverse hammerfist, a weak elbow, a palm strike, a finger jab, panther punch, oxjaw strike, or spearhand or even an openhand slap. One manuever 13 possible RL uses of it (and that is not including the kick side of that manuever). Just special effects.

[Lord Mhoram]

One little trick I used for superheroes.. and this is fairly illegal in fifth, and would require heavy GM approval.

Buy the martial manuevers that give you some nifty bits you can't do without them (throws for example, or Fmove manuevers), in a basic form.
Then you have a multipower with HAs, 5 pt levels in OCV and/or DCV, Killing attacks, NNDs and such. You mix and match the damage, and the levels to gain the mauevers that just grant bonuses, and apply them to everyman manuevers. This is much like the "levels" martial art, but more versitile. It works very well in a superheroic game. I've played and GMed with that construct (the biggest iffy thing being the 5 pt levels within a MP) and never had problems, but I've had good GMs and players.

[caris]

Interesting, my friends who are martial artists and into Hero (most hold Black Belts in multiple styles, and have been studying martial arts since I met them in the early ‘90s) all feel that the pricing structure for the Martial Maneuvers is just right. Of course, I couldn’t imagine any of them buying a black belt in a style without multiple Combat Skill Levels, and if appropriate for the campaign Damage Classes for the Martial Art. I would be hard pressed to specify how they would portion out the points exactly, but I doubt any of them would put 30pts in maneuvers and no skill levels or DCs. I believe their basic philosophy was to take the basic maneuvers to represent the individual practitioner’s general approach to the style, and the style’s distinctive flavor. They then use the skill levels to model the greater versatility of techniques that are developed over time.

I assume that you have already experimented around with various combinations of maneuvers and skill levels, and have found that structure less than satisfactory.

From a strictly cost standpoint, I’ve always considered a careful selection of the Martial Maneuvers to be some of the most effective spending of points possible. I try to avoid using them when inappropriate for the character, but given the rather broad definition of “martial art” in Hero System. It is not particularly difficult to find them fitting into most characters that are trained fighters.

[Killer Shrike]

No offense Dauntless, but it sounds like Pro From Dovering to me. Things can almost always be more complex aka "specific", but this isnt always appropriate in a games system that has a certain degree of abstracting involved.

As a parrallel example, the HERO System has 1 and only 1 skill to represent applied Computer Programming. In real life this is obviously ludicrous; you could break that down into several up to potentially dozens of discrete skills, rating each "language", each architecture seperately, and each design style seperately. The HERO System just abstracts it as a single skill, because within context its not that important. Same thing with a number of Science and Knowledge Skills.

Any expert on any subject can find fault with the way a game system handles that subject.


Also, as others have pointed out, their are options you arent considering here.

However, if you still feel as you have stated, and you want people to have more martial arts for thier points, just make some of the manuevers for a given style 0pt Everyman manuevers, and require a WF to cover them ("Barehand Basic Karate" 2 pts; "Barehand Basic TKD" 2 pts, or if you dont want to get that granular, "Basic Martial Manuevers {All the "Martial" Manuevers like Martial Strike, Martial Block, Martial Escape, etc}" 2 pts); anyone can attempt these manuevers, but suffer proficiency penalties, those who have paid thier 2 points can execute them normally w/o the proficiency penalty. All the other more exotic manuevers from the UMA must be bought normally.

[Arthur]

Part of the problem is that Martial Arts give huge damage bonusses. They were originally designed to give martial arts types competetiveness with superhero Bricks. They still model comic-book martial arts pretty well.

However, when you use them in a low-level Heroic game (let alone Normals), they become amazingly potent. For a super martial artist planning on tangling with Grond, +4d is necessary. For a realistic human black belt with STR 15 or so, +4d is almost ludicrous.

To really represent realistic martial arts, you should probably change a few rules and design all your maneuvers with 1-3 points. Almost no maneuver would have a bonus greater than +2d. Consider: +2d is equivalent to a punch from someone four times as strong! Martial arts training helps you hit harder, but that's already a LOT harder. +4d maps over to sixteen times as strong. Hard to imagine that in reality.

[Dauntless]

Well to be honest, sometimes I see people on this board here stick to the rules like glue and somehow consider any rules in print "inviolate" and if someone suggests otherwise, it's akin to insulting the Hero System.

The trouble is that the Hero System, being a generic universal system, does occasionally require some fine tuning and tweaking beyond the printed rules to represent what you want. For example, in a cyberpunk genre, I definitely would want to have more than just the basic computer programming skill, and have many levels of computer knowledge (software engineering, OO design, specific languages, analysis and design, logic, networking, specific API's, hardware knowledge for assembly languages, etc. etc.). That's the whole point of the Hero System, that there's enough information within the basic system for it to be tweaked as necessary to fit the genre and mood that you're trying to create. I have no misgivings whatsoever about tweaking rules and even breaking them when necessary to fit certain conceptions and genres. The Hero System is extremely flexible, and it's to its credit that it rarely needs "tweaking", but it sometimes does.

But I get the notion that sometimes when someone makes a suggestion of altering the rules to cover a specific need, it seems like a lot of "purists" come out and suggest there's nothing wrong with the rules as is, that there's a way within the rules to make it work. Well, looking at Fantasy Hero itself, look at all the added Talents and perks to simulate the fantasy genre. Even UMA added new moves and techniques. Star Hero also added to the core rules (or expanded upon) for the Hero System. So yes, it is possible to do some things as suggested, like using powers to represent certain martial attacks (I've done this on occasion), but sometimes it just doesn't quite fit the way you intended it to. I've always thought Hero was the Burger King of RPG's...I can have it my way.

Part of the reason I post is to get suggestions or other ideas I may not have thought about that fits the criteria I'd like. People have every right of course to say that I can make it fit within the framework of the rules as-is, just as I have every right to tweak the rules as I see fit. I would however like a range of ideas, including those that may have to "break" the rules. Since I like realistic combat and realistic modeling over dramatic modeling, I sometimes run into problems with the Hero System (there's a page or two in Fantasy hero detailing exactly some of the problems I've run into in the past with melee combat). Since I want to run a fantasy/martial art campaign, and I'd like it to be as realistic as possible, I felt like the current martial technique costs to be a bit prohibitive....at least for 150pt characters. For 200pt characters, it's not too bad, but 200 is almost overkill for regular men-at-arms type characters (but also reasonable for mages).

[Rene]

Dauntless, I'm not a "purist" and I apologize if it seemed that way to you and I gave offense.

Your post about a alternate way to simulate Martial Arts was interesting and I encourage you to tweak anything you feel like to, until you get what you want.

I don't see my position as that of a purist "defending" HERO from an infidel. It's just that (and admiting I'm being self-centered) from my perspective there is nothing broken in the way HERO treats Martial Arts. But that is MY perspective.

It's like you said yourself: you're very interested in realistic simulation, while I'm a "dramatic" gamer all the way. MA works well enough for me. Actually, if I had to, I'd side with the people that think MA in HERO is *too powerful* for "normal-level" games. But even that don't bother me too much. I don't see myself running or playing normal-level games. I like cinematic.

[Dauntless]

I'll try to explain my grievance in another way. Most martial artists will be spending 15-30pts on their techniques, PS, KS and WF skills. He'll also probably need to buy a few CSL's as well.

A man-at-arms kind of character can get a +4 CSL at the 5pt level for about 20 points, or +6 for 30 points. Plus, he can specialize with one weapon at the 2pt level, so maybe have a +4 with one weapon, and a +2 overall CSL for only 24pts. Overall, the men-at-arms can use his CSL in much the same way as the martial artist, and indeed have better DCV's than he can if he pumps all his CSL's into DCV. So let's say he spends 20-25pts on CSL's, 5 pts on WF, and just as many points into more CSL's as the martial artist. Overall, the man-at-arms will be more lethal with a select few manuevers (especially if he bought some CSL's at the 2pt or 3pt level) than the martial artist will (all the more so if the man-at-arms buys just one martial technique with a high +DC and links it with his WF).

The MAA however will not be quite as versatile...but analogize it like this: Would you rather have one Power with 80 active points, or 4 powers with 20 active points? Cost-wise, they are the same, so from a statistical standpoint, one could argue they are "balanced". But in the real world (or gameworld) this simply isn't so. A jack-of-all trades is nice, but remember, he's a master of none.

As for the argument that Hero System techniques can represent many different "special effects", a real martial artist literally knows hundreds if not thousands of variations on his techniques. Also, I don't know if having the techniques the character bought is representative of what he can use in combat. Most martial artists know hundreds of techniques but usually only use a few of them with regularity...but sometimes it's when they throw that technique you weren't expecting that you get hit. It may not be one of the prettier techniques in your arsenal, but sometimes that element of surprise is all you need (I remember one time trying to go in for a clinch, and the guy ducked under my armpit...I thought, "that's stupid, I can put him in a neck crank or choke hold now", but what he did was slip one of his arms around my waist, and he then hooked his foot under mine and he went into a roll, taking me with him). Neither of us had ever seen or learned any technique like that....he just made it up on the spot. And I'd done things like that before too.

So I think there's merit for having a "pool" of techniques which is somewhat limited by your skill at the style. I just haven't been able to figure out a good cost for that sort of style. I was thinking an alternative would be a cumulative sum of pts in technique x2, so if you want to learn 5pt techniques, it'll cost you (1x2)+(2x2)+(3x2)+(4x2)+(5x2) = 30pts. To learn 4pt techniques would only cost you 20 etc. It still costs about the same as most martial artists would pay anyways (well, a little more since you still have to buy the PS and KS and WF's), but you have a lot more flexibility with the moves you want to use.

[Dauntless]

Rene-
No offense was taken :)

Everyone has their right to post their own opinions (as long as they do so in a courteous manner) and no one who posted here was being rude at all.

It's just that I've noticed a certain....hmmm, searching for the word here....defensive reaction when anyone suggests changing the written rules to suit their needs. I have to admit, I used to be a purist, I felt that if I ran a campaign, I should be able to run my characters from any genre at any convention without the GM raising his eyebrows at any part.

But now I see that sometimes you have to fudge things once in a blue moon, especially to get more realistic results. So I think it's perfectly fine for GM's and players to be creative. Now if you start re-writing how skill rolls are made, and start tweaking the foundations of the game mechanics, I think there has to be a really good reason to do so. I've yet to encounter any situation that requires dramatic "rewriting" like that.

[sbarron]

Not that I want to get into an argument, Dauntless, but you did ask if anyone thought MA were too expensive. And you got the answer. Generally no, most people do not think MAs are too expensive.

But like you said, you are looking for a particular "feel," and you haven't had any luck creating it yourself. Well, I'm here to help, but I'm not really sure what you are looking for. Do you just want MAs to be cheaper? That is easily enough done with your already suggested "1/2 off" to the PCs. Or you could give each of the PCs one MA (20 pts worth) for free. Or maybe you could just reduce the cost of each maneuver by 1 pt. Or any other combo of price breaks you can think of. Can you be a little more specific of what you are hoping to find?

And just in case this helps, the below link is to a site that has a "cheaper" MA system for Hero. Many of the maneuvers are weaker, but now they only cost one point per maneuver, so you could certainly afford a lot more of them on 150 pts. I find this system really useful for low level Heroic games where +4d6 HA could get somebody killed.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Tom_Carman/DOWNLOAD/cheap.htm

Hope this helps, or at least gives you some ideas. ;)

[Alibear]

I would throw out the point minimum for building martial maneuvers. Steve threw them out for powers why not for MArts?

When running a "realistic", or low level campaign, or even when someone from a wilder campaign wants to learn a new maneuver, I let them spend as little points as they see fit on a maneuver.

You can soon rack up a goodly amount on maneuvers when you only spend 1-3 points on them.

[mr_nau]

Also as a RL practicer of ML (Jow Ga, Tien Shen Pai, Tai Chi, some Wing Chun, and Kendo) I find that the MA rules are in general pretty good for normal abilities, but find the more impressive abilities of a martial to be very costly, especially with weapons. What I typically do, and it has been suggested earlier on is buy your martial arts techniques as normal, but for "special maneuvers" buy them in a Multipower. Each technique is another slot. I usually limit them to 45 active points with the limitation of restrainable. For weapons techniques I usually require the OIF limitation or OAF limitation, OIF if it many weapons (a martial artist carrying a spear, sword, and chain whip), or OAF. This allows you to attach attacks to modifiers fairly cheaply. For example, a rapid attack on the opponents surrounding you with a weapon... 1D6+1 HKA (20) AOE Radius (+1) Selective (+1/4) 45 Active Points Restrainable (-1/4) OIF (-1/4) Can't Do More Damage than Actual Weapon (-1/4) 26 Real Points in a fixed slot it only costs 3 points. So that makes easy to fit your special techniques into a cheaper framework. Just my 1 yen.

mn

[Talon]

The problem with Martial Arts is that they start off amazingly efficient when you buy one or two maneuvers, and grow less efficient the more maneuvers you buy. For example, Fast Strike gives +2 OCV and +2d6 damage for a mere 4 points -- hard to get a better bargain anywhere. But if you add 12 more maneuvers, suddenly you're paying multiple times for those nifty CV and damage bonuses.

I had a house rule for buying Martial Arts where you only paid for maneuvers which "pushed the envelope". Effectively, you took the highest OCV bonus, DCV bonus, and damage bonus, added in each unique maneuver (Grab, target falls, etc.) and paid based on that. There were two main results: it was easy to get lots of maneuvers cheap; martial artists tended to stick to a style (lots of high OCV maneuvers, for example). However, it was a wee bit too complex and never made prime time.

If I was running a campaign with a real heavy focus on martial arts, I would certainly make rules tweaks to make them more friendly. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to allow characters to purchase powers as martial-arts stunts -- but only based on how many points they had invested in maneuvers. That would let accomplished martial artists gain an edge over non-practicers in a genre-appropriate manner.

[Dauntless]

sbarron-
When I asked if people thought MA were too expensive, I meant if they felt it was too expensive for their campaign. It's sort of the double edged sword of generic universal systems like Hero. The game mechanics which allow for extreme flexibility often cause certain weird things to happen in relation to other things. That's why many people don't like universal systems because of the "fudge" factor (the GM needing to create house rules or custom rules to fit the particular genre to get the right "feel").

In terms of how martial arts work, I think the Hero System has the best melee combat system of any game I've seen. I just have some issues with it in regards to running a more realistic setting as compared to real-world usage and capabilities of martial artists. After toying around with a few character concepts, it seemed to me that your typical man-at-arms character was a more efficient all around character than the martial artist. While the MA was more versatile in some respects, the MAA was more powerful with his chosen one or two weapons and had enough left over points to buy some other skills. That's why I came to the conclusion that MA were either too expensive, or not versatile enough for the points you had to spend.

I posted the topic wondering if anyone else had come across the same thing or not for their campaign. And if they had, what their solution was. I'm not asking Steve to consider changing the point costs to include them in the next edition of the Hero System (which is why I think some people get defensive...they think someone asking for help, suggestions, tips or comments about rules they find to not fit well are asking for official rules addendums....that's not what I'm looking for). So far I haven't found martial arts too expensive or limited for Superhero campaigns, just heroic ones...especially at the 150pt level or below.

[Dauntless]

Geoff Speare-
That's exactly what I've found out too. After spending about 15-20pts on techniques, it becomes extremely redundant. As I mentioned before, buying more techniques does not cumulatively make your character more effective (past a certain point). Buying 50pts of EB is exactly twice as effective as buying 25pts of EB. Buying 50pts of techniques isn't going to make you anywhere near as effective as buying 25pts of techniques.

While some can argue that there are human limits, and that after 25pts, the character should be buying CSL's instead, there's also the fact that buying 50pts of techniques may not make you more effectove but it will make you more versatile. The trouble is, you can't have your cake and eat it too....at least with a limited amount of points to spend. And in the real world, someone who practices a style for 5 years or more will be both very versatile and fairly powerful. Which is why I have the cost issue for heroic campaigns.

I'm not quite sure I understand your house rule though. So you paid for each technique according to their bonus? Or you figured what the maximum bonus, damage, etc was for every technique you wanted to know, added the totals and that was the cost for the whole "system"? If it's the latter, that makes sense, and I would use it in that way to allow characters to create "pools" of techniques rather than limit them to fixed techniques.

[Trebuchet]

Also remember that HERO "martial arts" covers a very wide range of possible styles. It can simulate everything from fictional martial arts like Sinanju to a caveman's skill with a club. There is obviously some real life equivalency between martial arts styles or one particular style would have been found to be superior to all others by now and every martial artist in the world would be practicing that one art. Instead there are hundreds if not thousands of styles, and expertise in one style makes you a match for virtually any practitioner of a different style at the same level of expertise.

My own super gymnast spent 44 points on martial maneuvers and +3 DC; she has a maximum attack of 10d6 not including Pushing. And you're right, it is rather ludicrous for a martial artist with an 8d6 attack to attack a brick with a 30 PD in Champions. In reality they would break their own hand when they hit Iron Man's armor or a main battle tank. But this is the comics, so the incredible can and does happen. So when she sweeps 4 agents on one phase they all fall down. Seems pretty effective to me. :)

I do agree with one earlier suggestion: eliminate minimim costs on custom maneuvers. If somebody wants a 1 or 2 point maneuver, let them have it.

BTW, have you seen The Ultimate Martial Artist? It greatly expands the martial arts rules for HERO. The basic 5th Edition rules are very generic. Perhaps that would address some of your concerns.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Dauntless
So far I haven't found martial arts too expensive or limited for Superhero campaigns, just heroic ones...especially at the 150pt level or below.
There was once a Digital Hero article (old one, and not in the 1999-2001 archives) called "Cheap Martial Arts". It was for low-powered campaigns that didn't focus on martial arts. Each maneuver cost just one point, and was roughly half as powerful as the real thing: half the OCV/DCV bonus, half the extra damage, etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tom Carman
There was once a Digital Hero article (old one, and not in the 1999-2001 archives) called "Cheap Martial Arts". It was for low-powered campaigns that didn't focus on martial arts. Each maneuver cost just one point, and was roughly half as powerful as the real thing: half the OCV/DCV bonus, half the extra damage, etc. I think that was in one of the best of collections as well....or at least I saw it somewhere and it wasnt digital hero......maybe it was EZHero or Haymaker?

[Talon]

Originally posted by Dauntless
I'm not quite sure I understand your house rule though. So you paid for each technique according to their bonus? Or you figured what the maximum bonus, damage, etc was for every technique you wanted to know, added the totals and that was the cost for the whole "system"? If it's the latter, that makes sense, and I would use it in that way to allow characters to create "pools" of techniques rather than limit them to fixed techniques.

Here's my document describing the rule. Note that it's a draft which never saw playtest, so it definitely has some rough edges.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Tom Carman
There was once a Digital Hero article (old one, and not in the 1999-2001 archives) called "Cheap Martial Arts". It was for low-powered campaigns that didn't focus on martial arts. Each maneuver cost just one point, and was roughly half as powerful as the real thing: half the OCV/DCV bonus, half the extra damage, etc. See the link from above.

[Supreme]

Well, my thoughts on this subject are thus. I think that most martial artists would not have 30 points of maneuvers. Just because you can execute a maneuver in a class, or even when sparring, does not mean you are actually able to perform that maneuver in a real combat situation with full force. I myself studied Kung Fu for eight years, T'ai Chi for three, and learned a smattering of Hsing I, Arnis, Capoeira, Boxing, etc. Even at my prime I think I could only execute about five kicks reliably (i.e., I'd pay points for them as a HERO character), and that's not five maneuvers that's two or three maneuvers tops that overlap with several other maneuvers.

On the flip side, HERO characters may often pay too little for their CSLs. Reconstruct this. According to Adam West, when Bruce Lee was on the set shooting the Batman/Green Hornet crossover, one of Bruce's favorite things to do was kick people's cigarettes out of their mouths. Let's do some math.

If the person holding the cigarette in their mouth doesn't move, then for its size it'd have a 12 DCV. Give it another 2 DCV for the partial cover of the face (at least). Now let's say Bruce is aiming for a 16 or less, so as to be able to reliably perform this trick. That means Bruce'd need an OCV of 19!!! Bruce Lee's maximum DEX should be about 20. (People who would argue Lee as having a greater Dex have been watching "Enter the Dragon" too much. ;) ) So with a natural OCV of 7, he needs another 12 OCV. He can take +4 just for preparing (though West never specified how much warning he gave people :rolleyes: ) that leaves a +8. If his kick is designed as a Fast Strike, or a Basic Strike, that gives him a +2. So all told, Bruce was sporting about 6 CSLs with at least with one kick.

How's your 250 point Martial Artist with +2 CSLs look now?

[Killer Shrike]

Id build Bruce with a Dex of 23 (39pts) so that he is basically one of the quickest guys around even compared to other dextrous people, giving a base 8, and he definitely would have Fast Strike, no question, with maybe something like +4 OCV Fast Strike (8pts), +2 HtH (10pts), +2 Overall (20pts) so thats 77 points right there. Add in some other manuevers, skills, and stats, and of course 2 or 3 HtH Damage Classes for his Martial arts and maybe an extra inch or 2 of Leaping.....


CSLs rock

[Dauntless]

Bruce really was superhuman. He was known to be able to throw a 2" wood board in the air and break it with a side kick. Imagine trying to do that without anyone holding the board back as a counter resistance. Also, his reflexes were tested once by making him hit a button as soon as he saw a light flash. The button was a punch's distance away. He was able to hit the button in .03 seconds!!! If that's not a speed of 12, I don't know what is.

One time he was practice kicking with a good friend of his, Ted Wong. Well, Wong decided to chide Bruce about his kicks...saying something like a little girl could do better. Bruce said to the effect, "oh yeah?", and hit the 100lb bag with Ted holding it (he said he was about 150lbs) with one of his one step side kicks....and he knocked Ted more than 6' back giving him whiplash, and making the 100lb bag hit the ceiling and cracking it! He also reportedly cracked numberous Mook Jongs (the Wing Chun wooden dummy) and did things that really were of virtually superhuman nature.

And there's also stories about the capabilities of some of today's Shaolin monks (supposedly one nicknamed the "Flying Monk" can walk sideways along a wall ala Matrix-style for more than 15', and can even round corners because he's so fast). Also, in one study testing how powerful certain techniques were, one guy broke the lexan shield protecting the pressure sensor device...a lexan covering as thick as Police riot shields that can withstand well over 1000lbs per square inch (he did this with a spinning back kick and he also had to get past the padding).

As for comments about only having a few reliable techniques to use in a real fight, I think we as civilian martial artists are forgetting one thing.....we're not fighting for our lives on the line. While I only formally studied for a maximum of 3 years in one style, I'd say I could reliably (meaning about 90% of the time) do about maybe 5 kicks, and probably close to 10 different punches, elbow strikes and chops. Joint locks are another story, and I don't know if I'd ever be able to use them in a real fight (though in some play sparring, I was able to get them once in a blue moon). But if I had to use these skills to fight for my life on a day to day basis, I'm fairly positive that I'd become proficient much more quickly. Think about your job skills....you practice them several hours a day and in a way, your life depends on it (if you suck at your job, you lose your job and therefore your money). You tend to get good at it real quick if only because of the amount of time you spend on it.

Imagine for a second people like bouncers, police officers, and military personnel who have to rely on these things for their lives and may have to use them on a day to day basis. I'll bet a good chunk of them can reliably perform quite a few manuevers. Think about Bruce...the guy slept, breathed and ate kung fu. When driving to school, he had a little target practice board that he'd use to practice finger strikes when the light was red. We as civilian martial artists or non-professional martial artists spend probably at most 10-15 hours a week doing martial arts (class time + at home training)...and I bet probably a lot less for some. Now imagine if it was your "job" and you spent close to 6+hours a day plying your trade. Comparing what we know to what a dedicated martial artists would know isn't quite a fair comparison.

I also think the Hero rules make the system to "fixed". It was funny that I was browsing through Fantasy hero and I came across an alternate system of "spontaneous" magic. I feel that this is very similar to how martial arts could work. I don't know about the other practitioners here...but I bet when you've sparred you threw a technique that you'd never seen or been taught...but it worked. That's the sort of flavor I want to get across. Where your skill as a practitioner is the basis for how good you are at performing techniques. Okay, maybe my inner crescent kick isn't so great, but I can do it, and maybe it's what the situation calls for. Instead of having "fixed" techniques you are capable of (even if the techniques only represent game mechanics....i.e. a fast strike could be a snap kick or a quick jab) why not have a sort of Virtual Power Pool of techniques? Personally, I think it makes just as much sense....IF the character concept is that he's a dedicated martial artist with more than 4 years of training under his belt (I don't think beginning or intermediate level characters should have this ability since they are still learning alot of the techniques and the nuances of the techniques).

[Trebuchet]

I think you raise some good points. But you could accomplish much of what I think you're aiming for with a "non-martial arts" martial art. Buy a few HtH Skill levels and several HAs instead of Martial Maneuvers. This would allow a totally freeform/spontaneous "style" that reflects a natural ability to just wing it. Whatever a character with such awesome skill does is effective. Throw in a few actual Powers with "martial arts" special effects (such as Double Knockback on the HA and Killing Attack - HtH) and Presto! Instant imaginary martial art!

[zornwil]

Given the original issues/problem posed, I think Treb's right.

Personally, though, I think MA is too expensive for regular human guys who want a leg up and way too cheap for bricks who suddenly get all these non-genre-convention maneuvers for a few points.

That's why I apply Martial Arts as an advantage to STR, each +5 in Martial Arts is a +1/4 to STR. Note though that is for maneuvers, not for additional DCs or weapons (but you have to buy the STR up first).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil
Personally, though, I think MA is too expensive for regular human guys who want a leg up and way too cheap for bricks who suddenly get all these non-genre-convention maneuvers for a few points.

That's why I apply Martial Arts as an advantage to STR, each +5 in Martial Arts is a +1/4 to STR. Note though that is for maneuvers, not for additional DCs or weapons (but you have to buy the STR up first).

Holy First Edition, Batman! :D

Originally, MA got you five maneuvers (IIRC, the current Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Martial Dodge, Martial Grab and Martial Throw) for 1/2 your STR.

All damage was denominated in multiples of your usual STR damage, not +x DC (Haymaker was the last holdout to that convention...I find I don't miss it). Each additional 1/2 STR paid bought you +1/2 to the damage multiple.

So a 60 STR Brick who wants a Martial Dodge has to pay 15 points...I'm guessing he'll buy levels in DCV only when dodging instead. On the other had, a 5 STR looks pretty good if you want MA from Hell

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Holy First Edition, Batman! :D

Originally, MA got you five maneuvers (IIRC, the current Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Martial Dodge, Martial Grab and Martial Throw) for 1/2 your STR.

All damage was denominated in multiples of your usual STR damage, not +x DC (Haymaker was the last holdout to that convention...I find I don't miss it). Each additional 1/2 STR paid bought you +1/2 to the damage multiple.

So a 60 STR Brick who wants a Martial Dodge has to pay 15 points...I'm guessing he'll buy levels in DCV only when dodging instead. On the other had, a 5 STR looks pretty good if you want MA from Hell

Yeah, I remember this, my system is the other path of evolution (if you will) from the original. I liked it the original way and wasn't so interested in the new method, but liked the detail of maneuvers and variability the new method provided.

[acowie]

Yes, Martial Arts are more expensive than buying stats to achieve the same effect.
[I would be happy to demonstrate with even a well designed character like Nighthawk ends up better with more STR and DEX and no MA. With some ludicrous pointwasting pantywaist like Green Dragon it is even more obvious. To be fair, it's been done A LOT in the past.]
It comes down to concept. People like MA, and the idea that Joe Well Trained Normal can kick Grond in the nads. For this concept they pay extra points. It's worth it to them, it's a game after all.
Feel free to argue that it's not MA that's too expensive, it's stats that are too cheap (actually, don't, I promise to do a search and read all the posts in the past).
Again, as said earlier, very careful use of a very few MA can be a good way to save points, I am only talking about published characters, and those with more than 15 odd points of MA.
They're a bit like a multipower that you pay full price for each slot.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think that the problem is that the system isn't designed to model the genre as Dauntless sees it.

If you can't build a MA that fits your conception within the point limits of a Heroic game, simply raise the point limits.

You basically have two approaches to modelling a character's skills. You either go more abstract, or you go more generous and give any applicable skill. Most average people who have any adventuring skills don't have them at the full 3 point level. Most have them as familiarities and can take bonuses for routine and easy uses of the skill for everyday things. Under the pressure of adventuring, most people don't have 3 pt. skills. To put it another way: Sure, you can walk a tightrope, but can you do it under machine gun fire?

I agree with the people who think martial arts work the same way. Most people are going to have a certain number of maneuvers they can pull off every time under extreme pressure.

So, some real people exceed that. Does that make the system unrealistic? No, it doesn't. It means that those real people are built on different point totals than other real people. In the real world, we don't all have equal points (or pts at all). In a game, it's assumed that the PCs are exceptional individuals. You don't saddle them with realism. If you want your advanced martial artists to have 50 pts or so of maneuvers, you have options, and several have been suggested:

1. Give them all certain maneuvers for free.
2. Give them extra points, just for buying MA.
3. Give them extra points, period.
4. Allow them to buy powers to represent the more advanced techniques.

You don't have to run at 150 pts. If you run at 250 pts, it doesn't mean your characters aren't "normal," it just means you're running at the highest end of the "real" human spectrum. 150 doesn't allow for that in all cases. I can build the world's greatest accountant for zero or even negative points. I can't do the same for the world's greatest martial artists, and if I'm using the more generous method of assigning skills, I'd have a hard time squeezing in anyone who's simply high-ranking in their art for under 150.

That doesn't mean there's a problem with the cost of the martial arts. The problem is that you can't do some genres on 150 pts, which isn't much of a problem, really.

[Pattern Ghost]

He was able to hit the button in .03 seconds!!! If that's not a speed of 12, I don't know what is.

Sounds like Lightning Reflexes.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Dauntless
Bruce really was superhuman...
We are actually talking about a real person who walked the Earth in the flesh. Bruce was not a comic book character, even if he acted like one. If what Bruce Lee was, exceeds the HERO system definition of "human", then we need to change the definition of "human" not start calling people like Bruce Lee "super human." Bruce Lee wasn't even the best martial artist of his time, he was just the most famous. Lee wouldn't have been able to lay a single hand on Morehei Uyeshiba.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Supreme
We are actually talking about a real person who walked the Earth in the flesh. Bruce was not a comic book character, even if he acted like one. If what Bruce Lee was, exceeds the HERO system definition of "human", then we need to change the definition of "human" not start calling people like Bruce Lee "super human." Bruce Lee wasn't even the best martial artist of his time, he was just the most famous. Lee wouldn't have been able to lay a single hand on Morehei Uyeshiba. There's no doubt in my mind that Bruce Lee was a very talented martial artist, but he was hardly superhuman. He was quick and accurate. So is Michael Jordan and Andre Agassi. Lee was a world class martial artist, but lots of people are world class at physical skills, Lee's just happened to be fighting. I expect pretty much any Champions martial artist would eat Bruce Lee for lunch.

I can't believe people are so impressed by kicking a cigarette out of someone's mouth. Big deal. In Champions terms, a typical stage hand has a DCV of 2. Since it's not even a combat situation, it half of that at best. A cigarette is small, but hitting a stationary object at arm's length is not all that impressive IMHO, especially since Bruce Lee (with his 15 PRE) probably preceded each attack with a powerful soliloquy:

"Hold still or you'll get hurt." ;)

[eepjr24]

Or at least not in my opinion. I have both played and had characters run in FH and Champions games. MA may be slightly too expensive for what you get, but it is pretty close overall. I took Dauntless example of 15-30 points in skills for a man at arms and a martial artist:

Man At Arms:

20 STR
17 DEX
20 CON
11 BODY
10 INT
10 EGO
13 PRE
10 COM
8 PD
6 ED
4 SPD
8 REC
40 END
31 STUN
75 Total

4 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
2 KS: Military Rules and Law
2 KS: Sword Fighting
4 +2 OCV with Falchion
6 +2 with Swords
10 +2 HTH Levels
28 Total

Martial Artist:

20 STR
20 DEX
16 CON
12 BODY
13 INT
10 EGO
13 PRE
10 COM
6 PD
4 ED
4 SPD
7 REC
32 END
30 STUN
75 Total

3 Breakfall
2 KS: Jujutsu
2 KS: Fighting armed opponents
1 WF: Blades

Kito-Ryo Jujutsu:
3 Sacrifice Throw +2 OCV +1 DCV STR Strike, Both Fall
4 Joint Lock / Throw +1 OCV, Grab one limb, 1d6 NND
3 Legsweep +2 OCV -1 DCV, STR + 1d6 STR, Target falls
4 Strike +0 OCV, +2 DCV STR + 2d6 Strike

6 +2 with Jujutsu
28 Total

On the old Offense/Defense/Mobility rating I use (from one of the older excel spreadsheets, I think figured from an old article) they come out exactly the same for total rating.

If the MA does his first maneuver (Joint lock/throw) and splits his CSL's he is the same OCV and DCV as the MAA splitting his. He has a decent chance to keep his target on the ground, and he is not using any weapon at all. He also will wear teh MAA's stun down. He does have a decent chance of taking some body along the way. And a lucky hit by either of them would make the fight alot shorter.

I am not saying the MA is even with the MAA, I still think the MAA has a slight edge with his chance to end the fight in a hit or two. But he is certainly not twice as effective as the MA for the same points.

- Ernie

[Dauntless]

I agree that Bruce wouldn't have been able to lay a hand on O-sensei...but then again, I consider Ueshiba O-sensei to be super-human too :)

If you wish to split hairs, then the correct term would perhaps be suprahuman. But definitely their abilities are perhaps in the order of one in the hundreds of millions. By Hero costs, that simply means that they had to pay more for their "powers". Think for a moment of Ueshiba, who while in his 70's held up a stick straight up in the air, and told Sadaharu Oh (Japan's equivalent of Babe Ruth) to hit the stick with a baseball bat as hard as he could...and Sadaharu couldn't even make the stick bounce. Sadaharu said he felt like he had hit ancient oak tree, rather than hit the stick being supprted only by the wrist of an ancient man!

I therefore posit that 20 is not the absolute limit of human ability, but rather a guideline for what 99.99% of humanity will fall below. Think about that Indian boy they found almost a hundred years ago who had developed calculus on his own and with no formal education (unlike Liebniz and Newton...and Leibniz has been called "the last man that knew everything"). What kind of intelligence would you rate this? a 20? If this is a 20, then even most "geniuses" should rate only about 15 or 16 at best, with Einstein, Bohr, Curie, and perhaps only a handful of human beings should be rated a 20 throughout Earth's history of human intelligence.

So where do you draw the line? Well, I also posit that as time advances, human limits are constantly being broken. It wasn't too long ago (less than 40 years) that the max bench press was 600lbs, now guys are hitting 750. It wasn't too long ago that breaking the 4 minute mile was considered impossible (I think that was a little less than 40 years ago too). Physical limitations are falling faster than dominoes. However, most of the other non-physical stats (EGO, INT, PRE, COM for example) have remained pretty static. INT, depending on how you define INT may or may not have gone up in the last few hundred years (though in some ways, I feel it has regressed). If you define INT as education, then INT has definitely gone up since more and more people are receiving higher education. I however feel that INT is seperate from Education (as I've seen my fair share of educated idiots, and many "ignorant" people who were extremely keen and quick to learn).

I think you have to draw the line based on your campaign. Since we're talking Heroic level campaigns, I think you have to consider the genre and time-frame of your world. In the future, God knows how technical advancements (namely with genetic engineering and nanotechnology) could affect the potential of humanity. Conversely, if you set it in ancient times, humans were much smaller than they are today by several inches, and were probably less strong as a result (if you look at the statue of Hercules, whom the Greeks considered a demi-god and the pinnacle of human perfection...he'd be a flabby weakling by even non-steroid using body builders).

[Dauntless]

I think Bruce did have physical talents that bordered on the edge of human potential. Do I think it's greater than a 20? Yes. Why? Because if we define 20 as the absolute maximum that any and all humans are capable of, it should therefore be an incredibly rare trait. In other words, there should be only a handful...perhaps 10 or so who possess a 20 in the entire world.

Does this justify paying only 10pts to be stronger than 99.99999984% ( approximately) of all the human beings on Earth? Since the Hero System is all about paying for abilities for how powerful they are, it does not correlate that human maxima should be absolutely bound by certain limits. I see the 20 limit as a guideline to use for general use, and a "rule of thumb", but it's not a law.

How many people could do what Bruce could do? Probably quite a few, they're just not as famous. STR has a well defined quantifiable definition...since your STR determines the amount you can lift. But what about skills, or SPD, or DEX? Bruce's reaction time is insane. Take a stop watch and press the start/stop button as fast as you can and see if you can get .03 seconds. You simply have to move the button a milimeter as opposed to an arm's length away...nor do you have to factor in any reaction time. Now, what do you rate your own DEX? I personally think mine's pretty good, not great, but definitely not bad...maybe a 12 or 13. I can usually only average .06 seconds trying to start and stop a stopwatch as fast as I can with my own finger.

The unfortunate fact is that when you pay for attributes in the Hero System, it has a linear cost increase (some steeper than others of course), but in reality, human ability follows an bell curve. But the cost to buy them is linear...a straight line, where the X-axis is the score of the attribute, and the Y-axis is the cost in points. They don't jibe with each other. That's why I don't quite believe in the Normal Characteristic Maxima in that I allow players to purchase characteristics over 20 (though I apply a more complex algorithm than simply doubling).

[Kdansky]

Interesting, I'd say MAs are much too cheap for what you get. 4 or 5 points for 2 Damage Classes, +2 OCV and +2 DCV seems really underpriced to me.

Compare:
Katana 2d6 KA, used with Martial Arts defensive strike
35 points, 2d6 KA dmg, ocv +1, dcv +3

Sword 2d6 KA, used with combat levels
2d6 KA dmg, 2point levels: 1, 3point levels: 3 (and these do not cover ranged attacks!)
30 + 2 + 9 = 41 points.

Martial arts was 6 points cheaper, so where exactly is it too expensive?? We are having a large issue on the 150 points (disads included) level with everyone wanting to take MA's because they are better than CLs... Just use MA with Killing Melee weapons, you only get 50% of the DC bonus but that's still better.

(Offensive strike: 4 DCs, makes 2 DCs on KAs. That usually costs 10 points, but in MA you get it for 5 and some CV for free)

Just don't be fixed on the stereotype characters like bricks, Energy blasters and MAs, if you try to mix some powers, you'll find large balance issues :(

[TrickstaPriest]

This is a fairly interesting topic. Martial Arts in HERO sounds like what a Gun Bunny is in BESM. It can be VERY cheap to make a pretty powerful Gun Bunny, simply buying a few levels of the Gun Bunny Attribute, some Highly Skilled, then Personal Gear and some Focused and Massive Damage. That will give you a potent damage dealing monster for a fairly cheap cost. The price is, though, that you can only build on it using those systems for so long. After a while, all your Gun Bunny stuff will be at level 5, the max, and will only do a moderate amount of damage in, let's say, a 60-70 character point campaign. The cost of this efficiency is that you can only go so high, right? If you could build them all the way to the top, it would be unbalancing and too powerful. From what you mentioned about MA, this is your problem with it. However, there are some very powerful characters in BESM that are Gun Bunnies, ones with 100+ Character Points. How is it done? They don't use Personal Gear. Vash the Stampede has Weapon Attacks, Extra Attacks, and other really powerful and expensive Attributes. He still has some of the cheaper ones, like Gun Bunny, to add support to the powerful abilities and "keep the feel", but they are no longer the main damage dealers. A Melee Energy Blast in hero could qualify as a super-powered MA punch, a HKA a Knifehand strike. It's all about the Special Effects, and appropriate Limitations and bonuses to add to it. This is how I run my games... I don't allow people to take things they can't explain. If they want a power with "Uses No END" they have to explain why it doesn't exert them to use it. Similarly, I have heard suggestions for "Damage Shield" or "Trigger" as fair uses for automatic counterattacks. This is expensive, but it's fair. It's the same system all the other superheroes have to use, why should MA be any different? It just means that you should be giving your superpowerful martial artists more points, because when they have powers that strong, they ARE on par with superheroes, or at least weak ones. Certainly I would give Ranma Saotome (yes, a fictional character, but he's being used as an extreme example) a TON of Character Points, even if he is a Martial Artist, because he could spar with some pretty powerful superheroes. If Bruce Lee is "superhuman" by people's standard concepts of human ability, then he costs as much as a "superhuman" would. If he didn't, it wouldn't be fair to the other players. Certainly most Chi Abilities are POWERS. They just can be learned, and have their own sort of SFX.
Now, this brings up another problem. What about the HUNDREDS of techniques Bruce Lee might know? Well, taking another anime example, Hatake Kakashi knows over a thousand ninja techniques (spells, really) that he copied with his Sharingan (edit- typofix). There's no way in hell I would tell someone wanting to create his character sheet to take them individually, or even as a Multipower. How is it done? Variable Power Pool. Since it doesn't take time for him to switch powers, I would allow the martial artist in question to take "Switches as a 0 Phase action". It may not even require a Skill roll, allowing the uber-enhancement Cosmic (In Kakashi's case, the "Power Skill" roll could be a memory test "Alright, so you want to use one of your copied Illusion spells? Well, two years ago you remember that fight you had with that Waterfall ninja. Now, if you could only remember how that spell went..." Certainly that'd be an INT based skill roll.). One personal note about this is that the characters more powerful techniques would be taken seperately, as individual powers (Kakashi's Lightning Edge, for example), which means the VPP's cost could be fairly small, since it's only meant to simulate all the "little techniques" he may know. If you want it to represent more, up the pool. If you are having trouble with too many "big attacks", maybe put them in a Multipower seperately, if your GM allows it.
(Add- Err, and only after I write all this do I note Dauntless said the very same thing with quite a few less words. Oopsie. Well, I hope my breakdown was some help, anyway. ^^ It does help validate taking a group of techniques as a VPP, and it's just common sense to work them out beforehand. Certainly, Multipowers would be good for starting practictioners (see the post after mine) and VPP for advanced users. It makes sense too, since the VPP would be more expensive (having Cosmic and all), so I think it tends to work out. Also, if you look at Surbrook's page for Ifurita (www.devermore.net/surbrook/adaptionsanime/eh/ifurita.html), he uses a similar system for her ability to mimic attacks.)

[Hierax]

For what you get, Martial Arts are BOTH too cheap when you buy a few maneuvers and too expensive when you buy a bunch.

See Mark Doc's "New System for Martial Arts":
http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html
where he discusses this and is well worth a read as it relates exactly to this topic.

Moreover, he points out how you can use Multi-Powers to create a fair point cost system using the standard Hero System rules.

I hope Mark will forgive me for directly quoting a couple of his points that I think are particularly important:

- It is relatively cheap to add extra maneuvers, unlike the present system, where additional maneuvers add progressively less and less in the way of extra flexibility, but cost as much as the maneuvers in the initial package.

- It eliminates the irksome problem that someone who wants to buy a small number of martial arts attacks, to reflect limited training, effectively gets a significant price break. Contrary to common sense, this lets him become more cost-effective than a "Master of the Art".

YMMV, but this makes a whole lotta sense to me and I've started working on adapting it to the 5th edition rules:
http://www.hierax.com/hero/martial/Martial_Arts-Multi-Power-Hierax.pdf

In the end, what ever works best for your own campaign is the right way. Mark has convinced me that the Multi-Power system is the best way to go for overall balance at all point and power levels. Even if you don't agree it is worth a read through for something to think about...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hierax
For what you get, Martial Arts are BOTH too cheap when you buy a few maneuvers and too expensive when you buy a bunch.In the end, what ever works best for your own campaign is the right way. Mark has convinced me that the Multi-Power system is the best way to go for overall balance at all point and power levels. Even if you don't agree it is worth a read through for something to think about... Interesting readiing, Hierax. I've been kicking around the same idea for a while myself, but you've taken it way past where I have. I noticed in 5th Edition UMA that many maneuvers are virtual duplicates of others.

Have you any idea of where the "break even" point is as far as efficiency of cost? I was looking at "multipower martial arts" as a logical variant for a character that gets by more on raw speed and ability rather than actual training in martial arts.

[badger3k]

What I've found is similar to most. At lower point costs, martial arts maneuvers are effective. Add 2-4 DC to an attack is a big bonus, added with OCV/DCV bonuses too. The maneuvers can make a heroic character powerful. When you go to higher levels, they aren't effective. I've made a standard 350 point martial arts superhero. Bought lots of maneuvers but no extra DCs, bought heightened attributes and not a lot of skills. The character was effective vs normals or lower powered characters. Put him up against a superpowered character and he was less effective. Which to me is the way it should be. The old martial artists of comics (shang-chi, iron fist, karate kid, karnak of the inhumans) could be tough but no match for super-powered characters (without a special power, such as iron fists' chi power, or the find weakness ability I'd seen used by karate kid or karnak). Keep maneuvers for lower-level, heroic characters and make martial arts as a multipower or vpp for the super-heroic characters.

To reflect high-powered martial artists or the fantastic abilities often ascribed to them, I'd go ahead with the vpp or multipower. I haven't tried using the rules in the uma on ading advantages to martial arts, so I can't say how effective those make the maneuvers.

Finally, as personal opinion, I like the generic way that maneuvers cover multiple actions. A black belt may know many hand strikes, but do we need a different maneuver becuase one strike is done with the palm, another with a knife-hand, etc. To me, while that would add variety (which can be done when describing the strike), it would also make the system more complex than necessary. To reflect a black belts expertise, I'd buy skill levels or extra DCs (or chi powers) rather than have 200 different maneuvers. Buying +2 with strike or +3 with dodge would reflect getting better with a maneuver better than buying another one, IMO.