Urban Fantasy dead horses.

[Spence]

Shadowsoul's "Urban Fantasy: Warnings" thread made me think of something.

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence from your game?

For me Vampires and Werewolves are so overused I pretty much just want to pack up and leave at their mere mention. If I ever use either in a game they will be something completely different and it will just be legend or misunderstanding that makes people think they are Vamps or Were's. In my world Were's are just shapechangers with nothing supernatural or extra powers beyond the shapechange itself. I just leave out the neckmunchers all together.

How about you? What tropes do you dislike with a passion?

[mayapuppies]

I'm with you on this. Lycanthropes in general don't exist in my games at all. I've made a twist on the bats, but I can't explain too much about it until I release the world book this winter.

What I can say is that Anne Rice and White Wolf are not even visible in the design. I blame Stoker for the sad parody that vampires have become.

[Captain Obvious]

I blame Stoker for the sad parody that vampires have become.

That's hardly fair. Stoker made vampires popular to start with. Before him, vampires were some weird Oriental myth. It's all the people tagging onto Dracula as the only canon vampire that made them the parody.

And it's not all sad. Would it be as funny if Dean Venture had said "he hypnotized us with his magical vampire powers"?

[mayapuppies]

I argue that making them popular is what lowered them to the butt of a Venture Brothers joke. ;)

Of course I don't watch Venture Brothers...maybe that's the problem. lol

[Shadowsoul]

I'd leave off Stoker really. Granted Dracula wasn't the greatest piece of literature ever but it's important to draw a line between Stoker's Dracula and the Hollywood Dracula. Stoker's Dracula wasn't sexy and he wasn't emo, he was an ancient Eastern European monster who intended to hide in contemporary London and was defeated with modern technology, that's an innovation that I quite like. Nor was Stoker the first person to try and bring vampires into fiction. Both Carmilla, (the original vampire lesbian), and the demonic Lord Ruthven preceded him.

Dracula simply got picked up and turned into a part of popular culture that has spawned near endless stories.

But I digress, sorry for the mini-rant there.

I don't tend to rule tropes or beings out altogether. But I would prefer not to see Ann Rice style vampires either. Vampires can always be reinvented however.

Secret vampire societies and werewolf packs are pretty old news these days. Nor is using a new kind of were-beast such as a were-leopard a proper innovation.

Vampire detectives are definitely out.

Characters straight out of fairytales are a bit irritating as well. No King Arthur either.

No potions.

And no children being entrusted with the fate of the world. If children are fighting a war then something has gone seriously wrong.

[CTaylor]

I think the entire genre is a dead horse, personally.

[Curufea]

I'd regard a psychic campaign as urban fantasy. Something like scanners.

But there would be various things I'd avoid having - like nose bleeds :)

[Shadowsoul]

I think the entire genre is a dead horse, personally.

That's defeatist talk! If they'd believed that about pirate films we'd never have had Pirates of the Caribbean! If they'd believed that about Westerns we might never have had Cowboy Bebop! If they'd accepted that military fantasy had been done too much we would never have had the Malazan Book of the Fallen! If dark lords had been banned from fantasy then Carey would never have written Banewreaker!

I'm going to stop now before my references become any more obscure, but I will say this. We can still save this genre! We can breathe new life into it and reclaim it from the soft core erotic novelists! We can break the mould!

(Begins to foam at the mouth and has to go for a lie down).

[Curufea]

You could even do an entire game in New Crobuzon as Urban Fantasy :)

[Spence]

hmmmmmmm.....

All I can say is

Wow. This got off topic almost immediately...


Or at least what I envisioned as the topic....:(

[Shadowsoul]

Ok. I'll try to get back on topic.

Faeries have been rather heavily used. It may be time to adapt them or discard them.

The whole, 'magic is dying' trope is getting old. 'The faeries are dying from pollution!" If a faerie can't come up with an air cleaning spell it probably wasn't that magical to begin with.

Less with the zombies as well. I know that's like saying 'no more skeletons' in a D&D campaign but zombies have definitely been overdone. And they are much harder to reinvent than vampires or even werewolves.

[Nolgroth]

I'm just waiting to compile a list so I can add those things into it. I personally believe that the things y'all are talking about are the tropes of Urban Fantasy. Might as well say "Gee, when I run a Western HERO game, first thing I'm getting rid of are six-shooters."

I don't get it.

[Spence]

Ok. I'll try to get back on topic.

Faeries have been rather heavily used. It may be time to adapt them or discard them.

The whole, 'magic is dying' trope is getting old. 'The faeries are dying from pollution!" If a faerie can't come up with an air cleaning spell it probably wasn't that magical to begin with.

Less with the zombies as well. I know that's like saying 'no more skeletons' in a D&D campaign but zombies have definitely been overdone. And they are much harder to reinvent than vampires or even werewolves.

Good ones. Any idea how you would reinvent fairies? I hadn't thought of them.


Zombies are definitely overdone in the last few years and on the short term I am stumped how to reinvent them.

This will take some thought. Thanks :D

[Spence]

I'm just waiting to compile a list so I can add those things into it. I personally believe that the things y'all are talking about are the tropes of Urban Fantasy. Might as well say "Gee, when I run a Western HERO game, first thing I'm getting rid of are six-shooters."

I don't get it.

Well maybe "get rid of" is a bit strong. Yes I know that was what I said :nonp: But maybe we can alter it to be:

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence or drastically reinvent before using them in your game?

But while I agree that they can be tropes, I don't think any of them must be tropes.

Or to modify your example in an attempt to illustrate what I mean: "I want to run a Western Hero Game but it will be pre-1845 so cartridge revolvers or rifles are very very rare (or non-existent) so weapons will be ball and cap or muzzle loaders".

It would still be Western Hero, since there were six-guns before there were cartridges. :D

[Alcamtar]

No, I pretty much like what I like (or not).

If I like it, and it is done well, it cannot be overdone. More often I find nuances in what other people are doing that are not quite to my taste. If anything it makes me want to do it even more, so I can do it right (that is, "my way" :D).

[Nolgroth]

Well maybe "get rid of" is a bit strong. Yes I know that was what I said :nonp: But maybe we can alter it to be:

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence or drastically reinvent before using them in your game?The "ban their very existence" part is what I don't get. Having your own take, sure. Get rid of? Why bother playing in the genre at all. Sort of reminds me of the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch.

"I'm going to ask you this one last time and if you tell me no, I'm going to shoot you in the head. Does this game have any of the Urban Fantasy tropes?"

"No."

<BLAM>

But while I agree that they can be tropes, I don't think any of them must be tropes.If I were going to play in a game advertised as Urban Fantasy and many or most of the tropes I expect are missing, I'd be sorely disappointed. The GM would have to be about the best GM ever for me to enjoy a game where my expectations are completely blown out of the water. If I know ahead of time, I'd probably bow out. If I have been playing for a while before learning that certain tropes that I am expecting are not to be found, I'd cry foul and leave the game. Tropes exist for us to define a genre and create a reasonable expectation of what the game is going to be about.

As a GM, I don't get the self limiting declarations either. As a GM, I would try to define what I didn't like about a particular trope and find a way to make that trope good again.

It would still be Western Hero, since there were six-guns before there were cartridges. :DYou make my point for me. ;)

I suppose crashing somebody else's hate party is a bad idea, but I was just sorta amazed at the close-mindedness involved.

[Spence]

Please don't take this wrong. I am not saying you are wrong or anything. I am just trying to understand some of your points...

The "ban their very existence" part is what I don't get. Having your own take, sure. Get rid of? Why bother playing in the genre at all. Sort of reminds me of the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch.

"I'm going to ask you this one last time and if you tell me no, I'm going to shoot you in the head. Does this game have any of the Urban Fantasy tropes?"

"No."

<BLAM>



I modified the statement to take in the account modifying or reinventing. But the thread didn't say "ban all", it said "which things would you ban". Playing devils advocate, you are saying that it is mandatory that a Urban Fantasy game must have all the various tropes or it isn't UF?



If I were going to play in a game advertised as Urban Fantasy and many or most of the tropes I expect are missing, I'd be sorely disappointed. The GM would have to be about the best GM ever for me to enjoy a game where my expectations are completely blown out of the water. If I know ahead of time, I'd probably bow out. If I have been playing for a while before learning that certain tropes that I am expecting are not to be found, I'd cry foul and leave the game. Tropes exist for us to define a genre and create a reasonable expectation of what the game is going to be about.

Meaning if you start a UF game and the GM doesn't throw vampires, lycanthropes, mummies, elves, fairies and bigfoot at you in session one it isn't urban fantasy? And you would quit before even finding out what it was about? Just being semi-dense to make a point :D But the basic question is still valid. If you play in a GM's Urban Fantasy game, you are mandating that he only run it if it meets you personal vision of such a campaign, rather than allowing a GM to be the creator of his world and enjoying the adventure it brings. To me that sounds like refusing entire Champions game because the GM runs a four-color 50's style world and said no to a late 90's blood-splatter type PC.



As a GM, I don't get the self limiting declarations either. As a GM, I would try to define what I didn't like about a particular trope and find a way to make that trope good again.

You make my point for me. ;)

I suppose crashing somebody else's hate party is a bad idea, but I was just sorta amazed at the close-mindedness involved.

Actually I thought you made my point ;). And it wasn't intended to be a "hate party". It was intended to find out which beings they would get rid of because they were so over exposed they were no longer really useful. For me vampires fall into this group because they are about a mysterious as a mob boss. They are cunning and suck blood. Repeat ad nausea. At least with a mob boss the PC's would have a bit of mystery.

From my perspective you were sounding like the close-minded one mandating a single cookie-cutter version of Urban Fantasy ;)

But after reading it I may have been knee jerking a bit. I can certainly understand your position, but I don't really think that if a GM decides to leave Vampires out of his game it means it isn't Urban Fantasy. Rather it is simply a Urban Fantasy game that is some what original and managing to avoid staying within the boundaries of another persons idea of what their game should be. Some of may favorite Urban Fantasy novels ever don't have a single mention of a Vampire and they are most definitely Urban Fantasy.

The best example of what I think about it with this statement: If a StarHero game does not include Vulcans does that mean it is not a StarHero game, and by extension does that mean Star Wars cannot be a StarHero game because it is not StarTrek?;)

But I do understand your position and it did make me think about things.

Thanks :thumbup:

I would rep you but it won't let me.....I still think my rep giving thingee is broken. It hardly ever lets me rep someone.....

[Nolgroth]

I modified the statement to take in the account modifying or reinventing. But the thread didn't say "ban all", it said "which things would you ban". Playing devils advocate, you are saying that it is mandatory that a Urban Fantasy game must have all the various tropes or it isn't UF?The things I am seeing here are fairly common things to just toss out the window. Of course it doesn't require every single thing to be UF.

Meaning if you start a UF game and the GM doesn't throw vampires, lycanthropes, mummies, elves, fairies and bigfoot at you in session one it isn't urban fantasy? And you would quit before even finding out what it was about? Just being semi-dense to make a point :D But the basic question is still valid.If, before the game, the GM told me that he hates all those things and refuses to include them, then yes I would quit. Preferably before I get started.
If you play in a GM's Urban Fantasy game, you are mandating that he only run it if it meets you personal vision of such a campaign, rather than allowing a GM to be the creator of his world and enjoying the adventure it brings. I'm mandating that he run Urban Fantasy, which includes the tropes that people are so carelessly tossing away. If he doesn't want to run Urban Fantasy, then don't call it that.

Actually I thought you made my point ;). You were describing a new take on the six-gun. Just because it is earlier than the cartridge revolver, doesn't negate that the six gun is a vital trope to the Western genre.

And it wasn't intended to be a "hate party". It was intended to find out which beings they would get rid of because they were so over exposed they were no longer really useful.Is there such a thing?

For me vampires fall into this group because they are about a mysterious as a mob boss. They are cunning and suck blood. Repeat ad nausea. At least with a mob boss the PC's would have a bit of mystery.And nor do I find a mob boss in say, Dark Champions, an overused commodity.

From my perspective you were sounding like the close-minded one mandating a single cookie-cutter version of Urban Fantasy ;)Not at all. I am advocating that nothing is "so over-exposed that they are no longer useful." To change the expected tropes of a given genre to an extent that what you are playing is not even close to the genre, you are playing something else. That's fine, but don't call it Urban Fantasy.

But after reading it I may have been knee jerking a bit. Same here probably.

I can certainly understand your position, but I don't really think that if a GM decides to leave Vampires out of his game it means it isn't Urban Fantasy. If it were just one thing or another, cool. I'm seeing lists of things in this thread. Each item on the list whittles down the options available.

Some of may favorite Urban Fantasy novels ever don't have a single mention of a Vampire and they are most definitely Urban Fantasy. Point to you.

The best example of what I think about it with this statement: If a StarHero game does not include Vulcans does that mean it is not a StarHero game, and by extension does that mean Star Wars cannot be a StarHero game because it is not StarTrek?;)I see the point you are trying to make, but it's falling flat. Branded worlds like Star Wars, Star Trek, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc are almost genres unto themselves. Perhaps defining the Urban Fantasy genre into specific types is in order.

But I do understand your position and it did make me think about things. Thanks.

I would rep you but it won't let me...Actually the discussion is more important than any rep and you made some good counter-points yourself.

Here is an example of my take. Let's use your example of vampires being overused. Let's say that you don't want to "include" them in your game. I would suggest that vampire lore be included in your game. Maybe add some sort of purging along the lines of the Inquisition. Vampires have become so rare and secretive that finding any modern evidence of them is nigh-impossible. Maybe an anecdotal reference to them somewhere crops up from time to time, but "vampire hunters" are mostly self-absorbed idiots that want to be cool. That leads to a lot of false information about vampires to be circulated, because hey, nobody living has any recollection of ever actually seeing one. It's easy to make stuff up.

Two years real-time pass. You have really ran your characters up against cryptozoological critters, ghosts, demons, and the odd spiritualist. What now? Oh yeah, those vampires you decided against tossing out the window when you first started the campaign. By this time, one very clever vampire could make one heck of a mini-campaign.

It is possible to exclude something without excluding it, if you take my meaning.

[ghost-angel]

Get rid of? Nothing.

that's like playing a Silver Age Champions game but banning "bricks" because that trope is SOOO overdone.

You don't use every trope in every game to be sure. But there's no one thing I would ban outright.

Unless I can ban everything but the first five Anita Blake books from reality. Really.

You use this trope and that trope, maybe twist them a bit. But tropes are an extremely important part of a genre consensus - overdone or otherwise. They exist so the author doesn't have to explain the entire world from scratch, every time. And there even more important in a shared reality like a game so that everyone at the table can be on the same page.

Sure, your vampires may use fiercely territorial clan like things and there is no "prince of the city" merely groups that have divided the city along gang-line like pieces. Or you could have each city with a single ruler and such . . . but the point is there's always some underlying common base that is "A Trope" so you don't have to write an encyclopedia for every game you start.

[Curufea]

A genre does not need tropes - they're just the most common ideas associated with the genre, not all the ideas in the genre.

Urban Fantasy can be any Urban setting with only 1 fantasy element - you don't need more than 1 for it to be Urban Fantasy.
That element could be vampires, sure - but equally it could be that love potions work. Or that someone discovers a source of infinite electricity. Or that giant robots could work within the laws of physics. Although, not to confuse the easily confused, maybe "giant golems" would be a better term for the folk that don't realise that science fiction is a subset of fantasy.

[Spence]

So what your saying is that if a GM decides not to include Vampires. Suddenly it isn't Urban Fantasy? By excluding one trope it invalidates an entire setting? That really blows me away. There are dozens of really good urban fantasy worlds and they don't even mention vamps. Star Trek and Star Wars may be sub-genres of their own, but they are still scifi and StarHero. I can say that i am running a scifi world with starships but there are no beam weapons, lasers or blasters. And it is still StarHero. By the same turn of the coin I can say I am running a Urban Fantasy game but it will center around witches, voodoo and the arcane, but vampires do not exist. It is still Urban Fantasy.

The example to use is not the one of "excluding bricks", a more correct example is "excluding PC heroes who kill and requiring a code versus killing" is better. Sure if you want to play a PC that routinely butchers anything around you may not fit into one of my games. But both types of games are still valid superhero games.

Not having Vampires may not be what your personal version of Urban Fantasy is, but then you don't have to play in it. It is still Urban Fantasy, as are games that center around vampires. In the end you can't force your personal bias on a genre and mandate that only one version is valid. That is the most narrow of visions. It is like trying to define specific requirements of what is or isn't Pulp. Or what qualifies as Star Hero or Dark Champions. Many genres have wide gray areas and a single trope does not define an entire genre.

The genre of Urban Fantasy is HUGE and while I know that most people don't read that much, I can only hope at least some have gotten past the pop recycled and regurgitated stories of endless neck munchers and into some solid and well thought out tales. Not that there aren't good solid tale with vampires in them. But even the biggest fan of the trope has to admit that there is some real garbage out there these days. As there is all the types and subjects.

But with the endless material available, folklore, books and so on it would be almost impossible to run out of challenging stories and have to revert to a vampire.

I guess I just don't understand the need to be part of the herd and regurgitate a tired and limp cliche when there is so much interesting stuff out there.

We'll just have to agree to disagree :D

[Nolgroth]

Again, I suppose where we disagree is the "tired and limp cliché " part. I absolutely hate the word cliché. It automatically redefines a trope into something bad. I simply do not accept that any trope becomes "tired" unless you wish it to be.

Perhaps I am narrowly focused. I would rather play a campaign that at least mentions the other supernatural tropes as "real" even if they are not actively part of the setting. I guess that I have this perception of Urban Fantasy that it is like our world, only all the things I've ever bought or borrowed a book to research is "real" (within the setting).

Maybe not UFOs in the space aliens context. That is getting into other genres. :)

But now that you mention it, I would really like to read some Asian Urban Fantasy to see how it compares. That might be an interesting aside to a more "traditional" Urban Fantasy game.

[Blue Jogger]

Shadowsoul's "Urban Fantasy: Warnings" thread made me think of something.

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence from your game?

How about you? What tropes do you dislike with a passion?

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".


Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

[The Weapon]

That's one way to save on gas bills, use dead horses as transportation! With a little necromancy you have a carriage that needs neither grain nor gas! Of course there might be a slight problem with demon infestation but the loonies who say gas prices are kept high to encourage people to use dead horses and thus usher in the apocalypse are clearly wrong. Our banks and government would never do that.

[The Weapon]

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".


Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

Personally I'd have all three explainations provided, but give the PCs reason to doubt their true. For instance the people who claim that "Bad Stuff (tm)" will happen are the same ones who conspire to keep magic secret.

Here's an idea for why magic isn't all around, there's a limited supply. It's not running out like oil, more like it's an artesian well that only refills at a certain rate. That's why strange cults go out to the sticks, there isn't as much competition for the resource. Same reason "aliens" (the fey) land in wheatfields. There is still magic in the city because there are more people and emotionally significant things there. There's just not as much per head of population.

[Karmakaze]

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".


Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

I tend to go with #1, with the implication that it's not a matter of people being sheep who are repressing because they can't handle the real world, but that there's some underlying magical effect causing it. (Folks who actively try to resist, or who have magical conditions that make it impossible to stop noticing can avoid the effect, otherwise...)

It's cheesy and a bit awkward, but it falls under the same sort of genre enforcement that stops super-scientists in superhero games from actually changing the world very much.

I have a harder time with the "it's a big conspiracy" thing, at least partially because at one point people did believe in a lot of these magical creatures. So not only would the conspiracy have to manage 99.9% suppression despite today's very efficient recording and communications technology, but at some point this conspiracy managed to make the whole world stop believing in the first place. I have noticed a fair number of Urban Fantasy novels that take the premise that supernatural creatures had gone more or less underground, but have realized that with current population density and the loss of anonymity that just keeping to themselves isn't going to fly anymore, so the settings show various supernatural groups either preparing to let the world know about them, or having done so in the last decade or so of story time.

[Lawnmower Boy]

.

I have a harder time with the "it's a big conspiracy" thing, at least partially because at one point people did believe in a lot of these magical creatures...

At one point? I know guys at work who believe in a new big conspiracy every day before breakfast just to stay in practice.

Oh... you meant the other kind of magical creature. Never mind.

[Chris Goodwin]

I think the issue isn't with the presence of (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) in the setting. I think the issue is presenting (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) as the Mary Sue of the setting. For instance, the notion that (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) are prettier, longer lived, or just plain cooler than everyone else, to the point that the setting becomes about them.

[teh bunneh]

I think the issue isn't with the presence of (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) in the setting. I think the issue is presenting (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) as the Mary Sue of the setting. For instance, the notion that (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) are prettier, longer lived, or just plain cooler than everyone else, to the point that the setting becomes about them.

Tru dat.

If I were running a UF game, the trope I would drop is that that vampires are brooding, angsty, artistic, romantic, Eurotrash goths overcome with ennui at their sad existance (said sad existance consisting entirely of living forever, being inhumanly beautiful, having incredible supernatural powers, and going to heavy metal and/or goth clubs every night). :snicker:

[Teflon Billy]

Mine is the whole: Magic exists, is pervasive, but IT ABSOLUTELY MUST BE HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANE WORLD!

Ugh, this will send my blood pressure into the stratosphere if the Hero UF book features this as a major genre aspect (instead of an optional storytelling choice.)

It is so overused, so boring, and so stiefling. I want to see a modern urban fantasy setting where Magic is pervasive, powerful, controllable (but never tameable), and everywhere. Sort of like the magical world of HP, but not so silly, full of plot holes, and again HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANES.

TB

[Markdoc]

Perhaps I am narrowly focused. I would rather play a campaign that at least mentions the other supernatural tropes as "real" even if they are not actively part of the setting. I guess that I have this perception of Urban Fantasy that it is like our world, only all the things I've ever bought or borrowed a book to research is "real" (within the setting).

And that is one kind of urban fantasy (I think of it as the 'X-files version) but it is only one kind of urban fantasy. Tim Powers writes great urban fantasy: recognisably our world (right down to the point where you can identify specific settings), an air of great fantasy - and without an alien, vampire, werewolf or faerie in sight. Gene Wolfe's "Free live Free" is urban fantasy without the usual fantasy bestiary, while his "Castleview" is an interesting urban fantasy that does contain them. There are plenty of other examples.

I agree with the original poster that many of the usual critters have been so overused that it takes an unusually gifted or imaginative writer to catch my interest. On the other hand, I could deal with the same critters in a game OK: I don't require a game to have a wholly original setting.

cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Aliens. Vampires. Werewolves. Faeries.

You have to admit, all these have seen a lot of coverage over the years. I can't believe there isn't a market for some new "monsters."

Are there not more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed about in our fiction?

[Curufea]

Aliens. Vampires. Werewolves. Faeries.

You have to admit, all these have seen a lot of coverage over the years. I can't believe there isn't a market for some new "monsters."

Are there not more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed about in our fiction?

Apparently roleplaying setting designers are just as unimaginative as Hollywood and would rather settle for the quick buck than original thought.

[Old Man]

Well, there's the quick buck, and then there's playability. It's already hard enough to find RPG players without forcing them to learn a completely new setting. That's why most fantasy settings are Tolkienized knights/castles/dragons/elves/orcs. You don't have to educate new players as to how the world works, you just have to drop in the place names and go.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be as huge a fan of Hero if I didn't love completely original settings. It's just that I think the average RPG player isn't necessarily willing to earn a history degree for a fictional world in order to play.

[Rage]

How about cynical chain smoking magicians?

Constantine is awesome, the rest?

[sinanju]

Good ones. Any idea how you would reinvent fairies? I hadn't thought of them.


I know I'd reinvent them. I've had the idea for years but have never run a fantasy game to use it.

The fairies are the original magical humanoids. They've mostly vanished--died off, moved on to other realms/dimensions/whatever. There are a few still around in the dark corners of the world, beautiful and dangerous, capricious and deadly. But they left a lot of toys behind when they (mostly) left.

Including most of the standard D&D races.

Dwarves were bred to small and strong to labor in their mines.

Hobbits/Halflings were bred to be domestic house slaves.

Elves were bred to be pretty, pretty playthings--musical, magical, sexual.

Humans are the "utility infielders" breed. Not the strongest, not the fastest, not the hardiest, not the smartest, etc. But they run a close second in all of these categories, so they've done the best in the post-Fairy world, carving out most of it for themselves.

Goblins, Orcs, and their like were bred to be cannon fodder when the Fairy Lords pitted armies against one another like a chess game. They breed fast because they got killed off fast. Left to their own devices they achieve a stable population by killing one another off about as fast as they reproduce. (Though occasionally they breed ferociously and swarm out to attack the lands held by dwarves, elves, hobbits and humans.

Centaurs, Minotaurs, Giants and the like were bred to be intelligent game animals for the Fairy Lords to hunt when the mood struck them. Giants occasionally show up with two heads or one eye or other abberant features because they're the rarest of the surviving races and badly inbred as a result. Centaurs and minotaurs have done better.

When a Fairy appears, it's rather like one of the Gods of Old returning to earth. Whatever happens, it'll be memorable....

[The Monster]

...note all the following is raw opinion, idiosyncratic and arbitrary - I don't claim you can't make good, valid, UF any other way, this is just what I would want to do...

Stuff I wouldn't feature in a UF game if I ran one:
--sexy emo vampires. I *like* Stoker's Dracula, and think it's been badly maligned and misused.
--ineffectual Church. My impression of most UF is that the Church (generally Roman) is either totally ineffectual, or it's the heart of a huge, vile conspiracy. Either way, there's a tendency for everything supernatural to be 'true' except religion. Bah.
--magic as technology. Magic should be atmospheric, odd, and mysterious, a definite alternative to the scientistic mindset. Shadowrun goes as far or farther than I really like to mix the two.
--modern 'occultism' works straight out of the box. My personal take would be that maybe *some* of the stuff works as it is, but most/many people claiming to know the Truth would be at least as muddled and contradictory as many people are about religion and what it actually, historically holds as Truth. Just because Crowley et al. wrote it don't mean it's real.

In my opinion, the best urban fantasy RPG setting I've actually read is probably Unknown Armies, maybe followed by In Nomine. Of the White Wolf stuff, my vote goes to Hunter; but I know I'm an odd duck. While 'D&D variant in modern times' (be it d20 Modern, Dresden Files, or whatever) sounds like it could be fun as an occasional, I don't know that it would really inspire me for long.

[Curufea]

Current styles of fairy I'm aware of/have read-

Kindly magical creatures - Disney
Another culture/nation of magical creatures with hints of danger - Shakespeare
Inhuman magical creatures with mores different from humanity - Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, most classic fairy tales.
As above, but with more danger and sex - Laurell K Hamilton
Inhuman alien creatures with mores different from humanity, their own agenda, and lots of power - Torchwood
Humanoid (elf-like) alien creatures that were watchers/influencers of humanity and can walk between worlds - Peter F Hamilton
Humanoid aliens with psionic powers that existed before homo sapiens (in the pleistocene epoch)- Julian May
Aliens in saucers - New age religions and cults
Spirits - Paganism

[sbarron]

Well, there's the quick buck, and then there's playability. It's already hard enough to find RPG players without forcing them to learn a completely new setting. That's why most fantasy settings are Tolkienized knights/castles/dragons/elves/orcs. You don't have to educate new players as to how the world works, you just have to drop in the place names and go.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be as huge a fan of Hero if I didn't love completely original settings. It's just that I think the average RPG player isn't necessarily willing to earn a history degree for a fictional world in order to play.I totally agree with you. But I also don't think RPGs are the place to start new settings. I'd like to see some novels that feature new "monsters." The RPG could then spring from those books.

I was trying to think of some new monsters that have come out recently. Something that wasn't derviative of something else, but still able to capture the public's attention. The Blob was the only new one I could think of, and that was what, 50 years ago? Everything else I could think of was a vampire cross-breed (Underworld, Blade), a human and animal mix (werewolves), aliens and aliens cross breeds (Alien vs. Predator), or killer plants (the Ruins, ala Little Shop of Horrors). Nothing really new came to mind, though I am only aware of what I've seen/read.

I did read a book recently that had a "new" monster in it...by Richard Layman, called The Cellar (written in 1980). It was about a monster that I imagined looked like the sewer monster from Big Trouble in Little China. It could cross-breed with humans, had a voracious sexual appetite, and a mouth and tongue on the end of its penis that drove the ladies wild. I'll never read anything by Layman again. I'll give the guy this, though, he's got an imagination.

[Captain Obvious]

Old cliche monsters have been around long enough to become old and cliche for a reason. There are probably a ton of Layman Cellar monsters out there, but the people that know about them either weren't intrigued by them or actively wish they could forget.

[Curufea]

I totally agree with you. But I also don't think RPGs are the place to start new settings. I'd like to see some novels that feature new "monsters." The RPG could then spring from those books.


I heartily disagree - it depends on the nature of the RPG. If you are in a detective, investigation or exploring kind or RPG - these are exactly the kinds of things you need. likewise particular types of horror require things that the players have no knowledge of before hand - the unknown.
It can be a fantasy, science fiction or some other genre - but unknown creatures and settings have a definite place in RPGs. Just not very often in games/settings that are all about adventure and daring-do that requires confidence on the part of the players, and familiarity.

[Karmakaze]

Stuff I wouldn't feature in a UF game if I ran one:
--sexy emo vampires. I *like* Stoker's Dracula, and think it's been badly maligned and misused.I agree. Some monsters should stay actual monsters. At the very least, the sort of person who can live with a condition that requires them to eat people on a regular basis isn't going to stay all that sane.
--ineffectual Church. My impression of most UF is that the Church (generally Roman) is either totally ineffectual, or it's the heart of a huge, vile conspiracy. Either way, there's a tendency for everything supernatural to be 'true' except religion. Bah. I've pretty much decided that if I ever need to use a magic-worker from an organized religion, I'm going to go with a Rabbi. All you ever see fictional Roman Catholic priests doing are exorcisms (they make one movie and...) [Although, that said, the players in my current Urban Fantasy game have been making use of some NPC Buddhists for assistance.] I suspect the real reason that fantasy shies away from making real-world religious magic work is that there's too much risk of conflicting with the worldviews of real world religious people.
--magic as technology. Magic should be atmospheric, odd, and mysterious, a definite alternative to the scientistic mindset. Shadowrun goes as far or farther than I really like to mix the two. I'm ok with this, up to a point. There are actually a few really cool pseudo-pulp detective novels that use cities that run on magic. There's also the RPG vs. fiction issue here - if it doesn't follow at least some sort of rules, then how do you make rules for it? Authors can be capricious, GMs risk annoying their players.[/quote]
--modern 'occultism' works straight out of the box. My personal take would be that maybe *some* of the stuff works as it is, but most/many people claiming to know the Truth would be at least as muddled and contradictory as many people are about religion and what it actually, historically holds as Truth. Just because Crowley et al. wrote it don't mean it's real. I don't see modern 'occultism' working out of the box as much as I see viewpoint characters pitying modern 'occultists' for not seeing the real magic around them.
In my opinion, the best urban fantasy RPG setting I've actually read is probably Unknown Armies, maybe followed by In Nomine. Of the White Wolf stuff, my vote goes to Hunter; but I know I'm an odd duck. While 'D&D variant in modern times' (be it d20 Modern, Dresden Files, or whatever) sounds like it could be fun as an occasional, I don't know that it would really inspire me for long.Of the White Wolf stuff, my only issue with Hunter was that the mechanics had some weird balance issues (it seemed either you had something that just nerfed the enemy, or you were wholly ineffective.) That was more of a system issue than a setting issue, though. I was rather fond of Mage, but then, I was an Ars Magica player before White Wolf was founded. (And I might well adapt the Ars Magica system to a modern system before using Mage even now.) I only ran White Wolf because that was the system you could get LARPers to show up for.

[ghost-angel]

I was trying to think of some new monsters that have come out recently. Something that wasn't derviative of something else, but still able to capture the public's attention. The Blob was the only new one I could think of, and that was what, 50 years ago? Everything else I could think of was a vampire cross-breed (Underworld, Blade), a human and animal mix (werewolves), aliens and aliens cross breeds (Alien vs. Predator), or killer plants (the Ruins, ala Little Shop of Horrors). Nothing really new came to mind, though I am only aware of what I've seen/read.

I'd place the Xenomorph from Alien as a new monster.
The critters from Tremors.
heck, the little things in the Critters movies.

As a few to start that I can think of.

[sbarron]

I heartily disagree - it depends on the nature of the RPG. If you are in a detective, investigation or exploring kind or RPG - these are exactly the kinds of things you need. likewise particular types of horror require things that the players have no knowledge of before hand - the unknown.
It can be a fantasy, science fiction or some other genre - but unknown creatures and settings have a definite place in RPGs. Just not very often in games/settings that are all about adventure and daring-do that requires confidence on the part of the players, and familiarity.I think we're just talking about different things. Dropping "new" monsters into a traditional Urban Fantasy setting is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about creating a new Urban Fantasy setting that is build in an urban environment around things that are fantastic, but doesn't include vampires or vampiric things, werewolves or there like, faeries, aliens, mummies, or anything else that's been written extensively about for the past 30 years.

Basically, creating a new setting, with new magic and new creatures that aren't just plays on what has gone before. The problem is, as Captain Obvious points out, its difficult to capture the imagination of readers and players with things that are new and unfamiliar. Which is why I suggested novels that contain these new settings first. That would allow people to get comfortable with the setting and its inhabitants before being forced to make a character.

[Curufea]

That pretty much is what happens in stories with "trips into faerie" - you see it in Stardust when the hero crosses the wall. It happens in movies all the time, virtually every superhero movie for example - the origin of the super takes them into a new world with different rules than ever before.

It's only difficult to capture the imagination of readers and players who are only ever comfortable with the familiar and the mundane. It is perfectly easy to capture the interest of those that want the fantastic, the wonder, the new and interesting worlds to explore.

[Inu]

To fairy appearances, add the current model of White Wolf: fairies are heartless bastards who simply have no understanding of human morals, emotions, or the fact that other beings matter one bit. They're self-centered and out for their own pleasure and amusement. One of their habits is kidnapping humans (usually children) and taking them to be servants. These humans soak up some of the local magic, and if they ever manage to escape (or are set loose, though this is VERY rare), they return to the world with fairy-like abilities... and are prone to being hunted by their former masters (who fortunately are less powerful in this world than their own; in their own they're gods, here, they're merely major villain quality).

[ghost-angel]

To fairy appearances, add the current model of White Wolf: fairies are heartless bastards who simply have no understanding of human morals, emotions, or the fact that other beings matter one bit. They're self-centered and out for their own pleasure and amusement. One of their habits is kidnapping humans (usually children) and taking them to be servants. These humans soak up some of the local magic, and if they ever manage to escape (or are set loose, though this is VERY rare), they return to the world with fairy-like abilities... and are prone to being hunted by their former masters (who fortunately are less powerful in this world than their own; in their own they're gods, here, they're merely major villain quality).

That's not too far from real faerie legends... the things were NOT nice to mankind most of the time.

[Spence]

Finally back to where I can sit down on the forum for a while :D

Again, I suppose where we disagree is the "tired and limp
cliché " part. I absolutely hate the word cliché. It automatically redefines a trope into something bad. I simply do not accept that any trope becomes "tired" unless you wish it to be.

Perhaps I am narrowly focused. I would rather play a campaign that at least mentions the other supernatural tropes as "real" even if they are not actively part of the setting. I guess that I have this perception of Urban Fantasy that it is like our world, only all the things I've ever bought or borrowed a book to research is "real" (within the setting).

Maybe not UFOs in the space aliens context. That is getting into other genres. :)

But now that you mention it, I would really like to read some Asian Urban Fantasy to see how it compares. That might be an interesting aside to a more "traditional" Urban Fantasy game.

I think it may have just clicked. Using my chosen example of Vampires to illustrate what I think is the difference in our angle.

I had a world worked up where magic existed. In a nutshell the world has latent magic but it can only be tapped into by someone with the natural talent to wield it. Most of the "mundane" world doesn't believe in magic, not because of any big "conspiracy of silence" but rather the practitioners are so rare, virtually no one in 2008 has even even seen one in passing let alone saw one using their magic. There is no such thing as a "school" or formal magical training. Each fledgling mage is most likely self taught by trial and error or in a master/apprentice relationship. Because they are just people they can be evil or good or anything in between. Only magi can "pierce the veil", or travel to other worlds/dimensions.

What does all this have to do with Vamps? Well my world does not have any Vampires (intelligent fanged humanoids that drink blood to live). But the legends and folklore definitely has legends of them, and demons, and fairies and so on. But the source of the legend could have been many things, an insane magi's experiments. A being from beyond the veil. A rare medical condition. And so on.

When I ban a trope, I mean I do not write the actual being into my game. But that does not really affect the rumor/legend of its existence. If you were in my game you could be involved in tracking down a "vampire". But if you succeeded in finding it, it most likely would be something else that caused people to think it was a vampire.

So Vampires did exist in a fashion, but not as humanoids with pointy teeth living on blood. :D

[Spence]

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".


Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

I agree with you on the whole conspiracy angle being dumb. I do have the majority of people not believing it exists in a setting (see my post above). But not because of any intentional plan. But rather there are not enough out there for people the believe in it. For instance if today a flying saucer snatched you up and space bimbo's kidnapped you and then brought you back. Who would believe you? They'd classify you as a nutter if you tried to insist it happened. The same with magic. If you witnessed a magical fight, would the police believe you? Try it ;)

Sure there will be believers among the tiny percentage of witnesses, but they will be diluted by the many nutball groups and conspiracy theory people.

[Spence]

And that is one kind of urban fantasy (I think of it as the 'X-files version) but it is only one kind of urban fantasy. Tim Powers writes great urban fantasy: recognisably our world (right down to the point where you can identify specific settings), an air of great fantasy - and without an alien, vampire, werewolf or faerie in sight. Gene Wolfe's "Free live Free" is urban fantasy without the usual fantasy bestiary, while his "Castleview" is an interesting urban fantasy that does contain them. There are plenty of other examples.

I agree with the original poster that many of the usual critters have been so overused that it takes an unusually gifted or imaginative writer to catch my interest. On the other hand, I could deal with the same critters in a game OK: I don't require a game to have a wholly original setting.

cheers, Mark

*Marks down author/series name*

Thanks :D

[Spence]

I know I'd reinvent them. I've had the idea for years but have never run a fantasy game to use it.
--snip--


Interesting ideas. Want would the time period of the setting be?

[Spence]

I think the issue isn't with the presence of (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) in the setting. I think the issue is presenting (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) as the Mary Sue of the setting. For instance, the notion that (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) are prettier, longer lived, or just plain cooler than everyone else, to the point that the setting becomes about them.

Tru dat.

If I were running a UF game, the trope I would drop is that that vampires are brooding, angsty, artistic, romantic, Eurotrash goths overcome with ennui at their sad existance (said sad existance consisting entirely of living forever, being inhumanly beautiful, having incredible supernatural powers, and going to heavy metal and/or goth clubs every night). :snicker:

Exactly, both of you. The major reason I completely dump Vamps/Were/Elves is because regardless of how you adjust them. Most RPG players I know will drag that kind of angsty garbage in. I say garbage because any good idea become garbage when it overrides the intended world. A Han Solo type bounty hunter may be a cool PC in a Star Wars setting. But if the campaign is centered around the PC's being super good guy law biding Holy Paladins and someone is running their PC as a bounty hunter/smuggler, then the Han Solo type becomes garbage in the context of the game.

It is one of the reasons I haven't played Fantasy Hero in a long time. The last time the GM explained how magic works (it was a really free system where "Magi" basically had to design their own custom magic system within some broad general laws). But instead, the two players who insisted on playing the magic types, decided not to be creative and make something different. And the first encounter resulted in them attacking with "Fireball" and "Magic Missile". If they wanted to play D&D, then play D&D. :nonp:

[Spence]

Mine is the whole: Magic exists, is pervasive, but IT ABSOLUTELY MUST BE HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANE WORLD!

Ugh, this will send my blood pressure into the stratosphere if the Hero UF book features this as a major genre aspect (instead of an optional storytelling choice.)

It is so overused, so boring, and so stiefling. I want to see a modern urban fantasy setting where Magic is pervasive, powerful, controllable (but never tameable), and everywhere. Sort of like the magical world of HP, but not so silly, full of plot holes, and again HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANES.

TB

My post 49 basically gives my take on this :D

[sinanju]

Interesting ideas. Want would the time period of the setting be?

It could be any period you want, really. Well, obviously long after the Fairies have mostly vanished, giving time for the subject races to build their own civilizations. But otherwise, any period that suits your fancy.

Standard Fantasy "midieval" period?
Swashbuckling "pirate" era?
Steampunk era?
Late 1800s per the Dracula novel, with the villain being a Fairy instead of a mere vampire?

[Lucius]

We can still save this genre! We can breathe new life into it and reclaim it from the soft core erotic novelists! We can break the mould!

(Begins to foam at the mouth and has to go for a lie down).

But...but...what if we don't want to be reclaimed from soft core erotic novelists?


Rescue that man and he'll kill you.


Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary does! Over here! Save me before Lucius drags me to another boring orgy at the Seelie court!

[Shadowsoul]

But...but...what if we don't want to be reclaimed from soft core erotic novelists?



Lucius Alexander



I wouldn't worry about it. We're talking about creating a few innovative new Urban Fantasy Settings here. Not destroying an entire sub-genre. I can't imagine that you'll be running out of vampire or faerie romance novels anytime soon.

[Spence]

It could be any period you want, really. Well, obviously long after the Fairies have mostly vanished, giving time for the subject races to build their own civilizations. But otherwise, any period that suits your fancy.

Standard Fantasy "midieval" period?
Swashbuckling "pirate" era?
Steampunk era?
Late 1800s per the Dracula novel, with the villain being a Fairy instead of a mere vampire?

Oh, I understand that. I guess what I really meant was what period do you plan to run this in? Since you came up with the idea you most likely have a preference.... ;)

[Spence]

But...but...what if we don't want to be reclaimed from soft core erotic novelists?

Well............ummmm.........


Fell free to stay then......;)


But is it kinda sad that a such a iconic example of the horror genre is reduced to near porn novels.......:eek:

[Susano]

Tru dat.

If I were running a UF game, the trope I would drop is that that vampires are brooding, angsty, artistic, romantic, Eurotrash goths overcome with ennui at their sad existance (said sad existance consisting entirely of living forever, being inhumanly beautiful, having incredible supernatural powers, and going to heavy metal and/or goth clubs every night). :snicker:

Yeah... 'cause if I was a UF vampire, I'd be all about carrying the heaviest guns my STR would allow, and using them to blow the crap outta stuff in bullet ballets that would make John Woo green with envy.

Oh have I been reading too much Hellsing again? :D

[Susano]

Mine is the whole: Magic exists, is pervasive, but IT ABSOLUTELY MUST BE HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANE WORLD!

Ugh, this will send my blood pressure into the stratosphere if the Hero UF book features this as a major genre aspect (instead of an optional storytelling choice.)

It is so overused, so boring, and so stiefling. I want to see a modern urban fantasy setting where Magic is pervasive, powerful, controllable (but never tameable), and everywhere. Sort of like the magical world of HP, but not so silly, full of plot holes, and again HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANES.

TB

Sounds like Silent Mobius and Shadows Angelus. In both settings magic is acknowledged as existing and often used openly.

[Susano]

Here's a question -- what are examples of Urban Fantasy?

My take:

Anita Blake
Dresden Files
Hellboy
Silent Mobius
Perdidio Street Station

[Shadowsoul]

In no particular order and with no guarantee of quality.

Buffy and Angel.
Wizard of the Pigeons.
Constantine.
Bitten.
The Dark is Rising series.
Blood+
Neverwhere and American Gods.
Moonheart.
War of the Oaks.
Supernatural.

Wouldn't Harry Potter qualify? It's mostly set in the countryside but still chronicles modern day mages and creatures of magic. Not that I was ever that fascinated by Harry Potter.

[Susano]

IMO, yes, Harry Potter qualifies.

Also, Neverwhere and Un Lun Dun.

[Lucius]

Anything by Charles de Lint

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders how to seperate horror and superhero out. Why for example is Hellboy not a superhero?

[Curufea]

Full Metal Alchemist
Any Final Fantasy
Mage (the graphic novel)
His Dark Materials
The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul
The Lost Room
Charmed
Forever Knight
Sapphire and Steel

[Susano]

Shadowrun

[Nolgroth]

ShadowrunAgree completely. I don't even really buy into the claim that Shadowrun is part of the "cyberpunk" genre. There may be elements of that in there, but it is no more cyberpunk than it is epic Tolkien fantasy or Conan-esque swords and sorcery.

[ghost-angel]

Agree completely. I don't even really buy into the claim that Shadowrun is part of the "cyberpunk" genre. There may be elements of that in there, but it is no more cyberpunk than it is epic Tolkien fantasy or Conan-esque swords and sorcery.

Couldn't agree more. Shadowrun missed every target that Cyberpunk set up.

. . . UF Examples:

Bordertown short stories
Borderlands short stories

Sandman Comic (Gaiman's Sandman)
Lucifer spinoff from the above

anything else I'm interested in was already mentioned.

[SKJAM!]

What I'd likely try to drop as much as possible is the cynical world attitude I find so irritating in some urban fantasy settings.

In my setting, magic will be considered really cool and worth having, bringing sunshine and fresh air into the world. Wide-eyed idealism is the norm for people who have magical gifts--indeed, pessimism and cynicism weaken your ability to use magic. Curative, enhancement and creative magic is easy; destructive and corrupting magic is hard.

(Mind you, it's still quite possible for bad people to abuse their magical gifts; they will just tend to be misguided idealists.)

[Curufea]

I think that's more an attitude that folk ascribe to "living in cities" that seems to be inherited into Urban Fantasy as well.

You should call it "Magic in the City" :)

[Spence]

The Adept Series by Katherine Kurtz

The Eye in the Stone by Allen L Wold

are some more that are pretty good.

[csyphrett]

I think Howl's moving castle, that movie with the raccoon dogs, Van Helsing, and the pulp style magicians like John Thunstone would fit into this too. I also agree with the Tim Powers pointing out. Most of the books I have read by him have some kind of weird magic thing going on.
CES

[Captain Obvious]

When did this thread turn from dead horses to "these are also pretty good"?

[Shadowsoul]

Howl's moving castle

Book or Anime?

[ghost-angel]

Howl's Moving Castle book is firmly, and deeply, Fantasy. Nothing "urban" about it. The author is essentially a Fantasy Parody writer.

[archermoo]

*Marks down author/series name*

Thanks :D

I don't know that I've seen anything that I'd call a vampire or werewolf in any of Charles deLint's works. Lots of faerie though. His stuff is generally a fusion of Celtic and Native American traditions, blended in the modern world.

[Karmakaze]

I don't know that I've seen anything that I'd call a vampire or werewolf in any of Charles deLint's works. Lots of faerie though. His stuff is generally a fusion of Celtic and Native American traditions, blended in the modern world.

He wrote some horror under a pseudonym. I'm pretty sure there was something vampirish in one of those.

There's also the Southern Vampire books by Charlaine Harris (and the "Grave" books, which often get filed under Mystery) which fall under the category as well.

[Lucius]

When did this thread turn from dead horses to "these are also pretty good"?

It didn't. It drifted into trying to define what is meant by "Urban Fantasy" and therefore into giving examples.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders about suburban fantasy

[Spence]

I don't know that I've seen anything that I'd call a vampire or werewolf in any of Charles deLint's works. Lots of faerie though. His stuff is generally a fusion of Celtic and Native American traditions, blended in the modern world.

I guess I need to give deLint another try. I tried to read Moonheart years ago and just couldn't get into it. The same with a few of his other books. But it has been a while.

[Spence]

When did this thread turn from dead horses to "these are also pretty good"?

It didn't. It drifted into trying to define what is meant by "Urban Fantasy" and therefore into giving examples.


Thread drift can be good and crunchy :D

[Chris Goodwin]

The palindromedary wonders about suburban fantasy

I know this was your throwaway tagline, but I couldn't resist :)

I believe I've heard "Bewitched" and "I Dream of Jeannie" referred to as "suburban fantasy".

[Spence]

I know this was your throwaway tagline, but I couldn't resist :)

I believe I've heard "Bewitched" and "I Dream of Jeannie" referred to as "suburban fantasy".

:thumbup:

[Egyptoid]

================================================== ================

[csyphrett]

Book or Anime?

The movie more than the book. That world is shown more with steam tech with flying machines and bombs and views of cities and towns the castle abutts on.

GA is right that despite the visit to Howl's home town in Wales in the book, you don't get that feeling that the towns that he operates in would belong to anything but a pastoral setting.
CES

[CountZero]

This might have already been mentioned, but a Dead Horse that tends to bug me in Urban Fantasy is either Science = Bad, or Magic Breaks Science.

Science = Bad - Science either strips the wonder out of the world, leaving a bland, grey world, whereas magic makes everything colorful and shiny, though more Dangerous. Or, while the writer doesn't explicitly say that All Science Is Bad, the majority of the scientists in their books (with the exception of the Token Good Scientists) tend to be more then a little unethical, and by "a little unethical" I mean one step below Mengele. It doesn't help this "trope" that whenever I've encountered it's completely anvillicious (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious) (or at least feels that way). :sick:

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.

[Spence]

This might have already been mentioned, but a Dead Horse that tends to bug me in Urban Fantasy is either Science = Bad, or Magic Breaks Science.

Science = Bad - Science either strips the wonder out of the world, leaving a bland, grey world, whereas magic makes everything colorful and shiny, though more Dangerous. Or, while the writer doesn't explicitly say that All Science Is Bad, the majority of the scientists in their books (with the exception of the Token Good Scientists) tend to be more then a little unethical, and by "a little unethical" I mean one step below Mengele. It doesn't help this "trope" that whenever I've encountered it's completely anvillicious (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious) (or at least feels that way). :sick:

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.

Good ones :thumbup: I don't see #2 as being as bad as #1. But I have noticed the trend of making science evil, and not just in fantasy.

[BlackSword]

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.
The only problem I had with 'science interferes with technology' in the Dresden files was that at times it was too broadly applied as 'what is technology.' In the first book he is worried about the bullets in his gun exploding or the gears in the gun (revolver) jamming. By the logic used in that Harry shouldn't even be able to use a modern toliet. The most recent books just seem to make it that he interferes with electrical systems.

[Susano]

The only problem I had with 'science interferes with technology' in the Dresden files was that at times it was too broadly applied as 'what is technology.' In the first book he is worried about the bullets in his gun exploding or the gears in the gun (revolver) jamming. By the logic used in that Harry shouldn't even be able to use a modern toliet. The most recent books just seem to make it that he interferes with electrical systems.

Which makes more "sense" from a game standpoint. He's ridden in cars with no problem, for example.

[Clonus]

This might have already been mentioned, but a Dead Horse that tends to bug me in Urban Fantasy is either Science = Bad, or Magic Breaks Science.

Science = Bad - Science either strips the wonder out of the world, leaving a bland, grey world, whereas magic makes everything colorful and shiny, though more Dangerous. Or, while the writer doesn't explicitly say that All Science Is Bad, the majority of the scientists in their books (with the exception of the Token Good Scientists) tend to be more then a little unethical, and by "a little unethical" I mean one step below Mengele. It doesn't help this "trope" that whenever I've encountered it's completely anvillicious (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious) (or at least feels that way). :sick:

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.

In any urban fantasy universe where obvious palpable magic is supposed to be a secret, it is self-evident that the greatest threats to that secrecy are scientists and technology. Harry Dresden's anti-tech field may not serve the purposes of game balance but what it does do is make sure that even when he gets flashy, nobody's going to be taking some video of it with their camera phone. Scientists are a threat because not only are they more respected than the average witness, they are not inclined to just shrug and chalk up something weird if they see it. Scientists do investigate supposed paranormal phenomena, and they'd do it a lot more if there was actually something there to be found. Even their equipment failures would become something significant and worthy of investigation.

So if you aren't to have science be antithetical to your magic or vice versa, and you aren't going to have the kind of modern day universe which is distinctly weird because everyone knows the paranormal exists and uses of it are rather commonplace ala "Cast a Deadly Spell" or "Shadowrun" ...then you are going to have to strain to hold your universe together.

[Spence]

I have to admit I really enjoyed books Dresden and was more than willing to give things a pass. But I have to admit my interest is waning. The last books was "good" but just didn't have the same zing, if you know what I mean.

[csyphrett]

The thing that bothers me is Magic is science. It was annoying in Blade, it's annoying wherever I see it. I don't know why.

An example I guess is when the combined forces of the JSA and JLA turned Surtur the fire giant into a wormhole under the premise he's a walking sun. How does that work?
CES

[Markdoc]

Which makes more "sense" from a game standpoint. He's ridden in cars with no problem, for example.

Though if he interfered with electrical systems, he shouldn't be able to. Sound like one of his powers is plot immunity. :D

cheers, Mark

[Lord Mhoram]

I have to admit I really enjoyed books Dresden and was more than willing to give things a pass. But I have to admit my interest is waning. The last books was "good" but just didn't have the same zing, if you know what I mean.

:confused:

I thought Small Favor was the best (well second best after Dead Beat) of the series. :)

[BlackSword]

Though if he interfered with electrical systems, he shouldn't be able to. Sound like one of his powers is plot immunity. :D
Each novel usually refines it some. I think the current rule is that he typically only interferes with electronics when he is using magic and the more magic he calls the more it interferes with technology. More sensitive electronics are the most susceptible, so usually people in the know turn off their computers before he enters the room as a protective measure. In the most recent book he visisted another wizard in the hospital, and the other wizard wanted to be released soon so she didn't interfere with anyone else's life support. But yeah, pretty much the anti-technology field is only mentioned when it is conveniant or inconveniant without the full ramifications being considered.
I have to admit I really enjoyed books Dresden and was more than willing to give things a pass. But I have to admit my interest is waning. The last books was "good" but just didn't have the same zing, if you know what I mean.
I enjoy them, though I do agree with your point about the last one being 'just good.' It seems like Butcher is falling into the pattern of not using an editor so the writing is not as tight as it could be. The several page dissertation on 'what is pain' was a bit much for me. More recently the books have become a bit formulaic, you can pick out in the first few pages who the bad guy is. Also the number of times Harry gets knocked out he should be suffering from brain damage.

[Spence]

:confused:

I thought Small Favor was the best (well second best after Dead Beat) of the series. :)



I enjoy them, though I do agree with your point about the last one being 'just good.' It seems like Butcher is falling into the pattern of not using an editor so the writing is not as tight as it could be. The several page dissertation on 'what is pain' was a bit much for me. More recently the books have become a bit formulaic, you can pick out in the first few pages who the bad guy is. Also the number of times Harry gets knocked out he should be suffering from brain damage.

I think for me the problem is Harry was a fantastic read when he was stuggling at the bottom. But now he is a uber mage and the "poor outclassed me" is wearing thin. Things may be tough. But he is in the big leagues and would know it. At least it seems that way to me.

[Lord Mhoram]

I think for me the problem is Harry was a fantastic read when he was stuggling at the bottom. But now he is a uber mage and the "poor outclassed me" is wearing thin. Things may be tough. But he is in the big leagues and would know it. At least it seems that way to me.

I can see that.
But his opposition has increased, and he is still outclassed. :). Dealing with a group of Denarians almost killed him again.... :)

But I can understand your side of it.

I love him being an ubermage though.

[Spence]

I can see that.
But his opposition has increased, and he is still outclassed. :). Dealing with a group of Denarians almost killed him again.... :)

But I can understand your side of it.

I love him being an ubermage though.



I prefer to say outnumbered. Not outclassed. ;)

But I didn't say I didn't enjoy the book, and I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good. Just that the luster has worn off a bit :(

[sbarron]

But I didn't say I didn't enjoy the book, and I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good. Just that the luster has worn off a bit :(It hasn't for me. However...

I'd like the character to start changing to fit his new role. I am getting tired of Harry always being scared, always being frazzled, feeling overwhelmed, etc. He's becoming a bad-ass, and needs to start acting like it. The whole "under-powered mage/detective defending humanity while being witty to cover his fear" is a great place to start. But how many "big" baddies does he have to beat before he realizes that he's not a chump anymore?

To the writer's credit, the characters around Harry seem to have realized that he is not a chump. And I appreciate that. But I'm ready for Harry to start to come into his own... start acting more like Gandolf and less like a noble-minded Wormtail.

[archermoo]

I guess I need to give deLint another try. I tried to read Moonheart years ago and just couldn't get into it. The same with a few of his other books. But it has been a while.

I strongly recommend it, but then again I also love Moonheart, so our tastes might not be the same.

Though for a different flavour I'd recommend his Newford books.

[Karmakaze]

Though if he interfered with electrical systems, he shouldn't be able to. Sound like one of his powers is plot immunity. :D

cheers, Mark

It does seem to be a matter of complexity. He deliberately drives a very old car because it has fewer complex systems to break down and what it has can be fixed by hand. On the one occasion he borrowed a newer car, it developed quirks very quickly.

As I recall, the explanation isn't that the anti-tech field automatically stops all technology from working, just that it increases the odds of a malfunction. So he doesn't put out streetlights by walking past them, but odds are the ones outside his office burn out more often than the ones a few blocks away. I seem to recall his hot water boiler was out for several books running, as well.

[Spence]

I strongly recommend it, but then again I also love Moonheart, so our tastes might not be the same.

Though for a different flavour I'd recommend his Newford books.

Taste is a big thing. But I have discovered several books recently that I had relegated to the garbage heap years ago. They aren’t that bad these days ;)

I also reread one of the “classics” from the day and was thinking OMG I liked this! It's c*ap.


Taste changes methinks :D

[Susano]

I loved The Sword of Shanarra when I was in high school. Loved it. Read it over and over. About 5 years ago I decided to re-read large amounts of my library and pitch anything I realized was cr*p. I didn't get past page two before tossing The Sword of Shanarra.

[Spence]

I loved The Sword of Shanarra when I was in high school. Loved it. Read it over and over. About 5 years ago I decided to re-read large amounts of my library and pitch anything I realized was cr*p. I didn't get past page two before tossing The Sword of Shanarra.

:snicker:

[BlackSword]

I think for me the problem is Harry was a fantastic read when he was stuggling at the bottom. But now he is a uber mage and the "poor outclassed me" is wearing thin. Things may be tough. But he is in the big leagues and would know it.
Your descriptions matches up pretty close to where I am as well. The 200 page whine-fest is getting old, especially now that he is reaching mary-sue levels of competence. I enjoyed reading the last book, but I think it is falling away from interesting innovative read to quick easy read.

[Kristopher]

Which makes more "sense" from a game standpoint. He's ridden in cars with no problem, for example.

Cars have electrical systems they can't run without, unless they're diesel, maybe, and even then...

Oh, Markdoc beat me to it.

[Curufea]

I loved The Sword of Shanarra when I was in high school. Loved it. Read it over and over. About 5 years ago I decided to re-read large amounts of my library and pitch anything I realized was cr*p. I didn't get past page two before tossing The Sword of Shanarra.

I never did - I had unfortunatly for Brooks, read Lord of the Rings first, and the Sword seemed far too much to be cheap, badly written plagiarism.

However - I did like Elfstones, because the silent demon assassin was very cool :)

[GothKidSamurai]

For years anytime I'd play a game where I controlled a whole party and had to name them, one guy would be Garrett Jax. Though I can't remember which Shannara book he came from.

[Old Man]

I never did - I had unfortunatly for Brooks, read Lord of the Rings first, and the Sword seemed far too much to be cheap, badly written plagiarism.

Precisely! Although McKiernan's Iron Tower Trilogy was much more guilty of that particular crime.

Probably what annoyed me most about Shannara was the Mary Sue Allanon. But that's not the only thing.