Champions: New Millenium as an alternate world.

[Shiva13]

I have been looking through the various RPG books I have. Specifically superhero game world settings. And I have quite a few of those.

Champions: New Millenium came to mind immediately because it is so stylistically different than the current Champions Universe. It feels like with what little there is to it, that it could be used as an alternate world. If one is interested in those things.

So I have come up with the burgeoning idea of a sort of map of alternate worlds. Including the current Champions Universe, Champions: New Milennium, Freedom City, Empire City, Gestalt Earth, San Angelo, Strike Force earth (Yes, I believe that classic merits a full reality of its own.), and more as I think it through.

The purpose of this multiversal map idea is to be a resource for creating classic style universal crossover adventures. Such things included will be a sort of cheat sheet on every one of those universes comparing things such a differing physical laws, along with mentions of who the really stand-out players of each universe are.

[Sketchpad]

Sounds cool :) I always dug the background for C:NM :)

[McCoy]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1596432

[Shiva13]

I was thinking of a more neutral approach than mentioned in that thread.

If someone wanted to come up with their own multiversal overseers/watchers/whatever, that would be up to them. I don't want to front load the project with that kind of baggage. if it is to be done, I think it should be done by the individual GM.

[Shiva13]

Sounds cool :) I always dug the background for C:NM :)

I still see great potential in the C:NM background. It screams Iron Age Champions to me.And if you take it in that context, you really have something interesting.

The Mutants & Masterminds supplement, Iron Age, contains a lot of campaign advice on that particular style to really push further development of C:NM pretty far. My advice in doing so would be to take other 4th Edition Champions characters and rebuild them according to the Iron Age style suggestions. It would be a great starting point.

[Sketchpad]

I still see great potential in the C:NM background. It screams Iron Age Champions to me.And if you take it in that context, you really have something interesting.

The Mutants & Masterminds supplement, Iron Age, contains a lot of campaign advice on that particular style to really push further development of C:NM pretty far. My advice in doing so would be to take other 4th Edition Champions characters and rebuild them according to the Iron Age style suggestions. It would be a great starting point.
I see the current CU still in the Iron Age. Just has that metal taste ;)

[Shiva13]

Honestly, I see the current Champions Universe as more Modern Age than Iron Age. Because it most definitely shows a great deal of respect for the material of the past.

Iron Age was all about seriousness and redefining conventions. It was a period of rebellion with a lot of looking down one's nose at Silver Age conventions. While producing a lot that ended up appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Champions: New Millenium reflected that aspect of the Iron Age most abruptly by the inclusion of the Proprieter War as a vital element of the setting, and the result of most of the past generation of heroes and villains being completely wiped out.

The destruction of Detroit and the creation of Millenium City in the current Champions Universe was nowhere near the scope of the Proprieter War. The Proprieter War ended an entire generation of heroes in one shot. Detroit being destroyed just didn't have the same scope or anywhere near the same resonance worldwide.

Now, the New Millenium setting I think is ripe for use as an alternate world. I tjust thing it is loaded with potential.

[Sketchpad]

Honestly, I see the current Champions Universe as more Modern Age than Iron Age. Because it most definitely shows a great deal of respect for the material of the past.

No offense to Steve or anyone else at Hero, but I just don't see this. Many old characters have been written out of existence, killed or have been given some minor role in the universe. There are some notable exceptions, but many of the old guard, both hero and villain, don't have any role in the 5th ed CU.


Champions: New Millenium reflected that aspect of the Iron Age most abruptly by the inclusion of the Proprieter War as a vital element of the setting, and the result of most of the past generation of heroes and villains being completely wiped out.

The destruction of Detroit and the creation of Millenium City in the current Champions Universe was nowhere near the scope of the Proprieter War. The Proprieter War ended an entire generation of heroes in one shot. Detroit being destroyed just didn't have the same scope or anywhere near the same resonance worldwide.

Now, the New Millenium setting I think is ripe for use as an alternate world. I just thing it is loaded with potential.

I agree whole heartedly that C:NM also fits the IA motif as well :) I just see the CU more as an Iron Age/post-Modern setting more than modern or neo-silver age.

[Lord Liaden]

So I have come up with the burgeoning idea of a sort of map of alternate worlds. Including the current Champions Universe, Champions: New Milennium, Freedom City, Empire City, Gestalt Earth, San Angelo, Strike Force earth (Yes, I believe that classic merits a full reality of its own.), and more as I think it through.

Since we have access to HERO System stats (from one edition or another) for characters from all of those settings, crossing them over wouldn't be a major undertaking.

It might be quite intriguing to have alternate versions of the same character meet, e.g. 4E Defender, 5E Defender, and New Millennium Defender.

[Nolgroth]

I would like to see Doll Maker Destroyer vs. Ancient Atlantean Villain Destroyer in a no holds barred cage match.

[Lord Liaden]

I would like to see Doll Maker Destroyer vs. Ancient Atlantean Villain Destroyer in a no holds barred cage match.

Hard to choose who to root for between those two. :rolleyes:

Of course Detroit Killing Destroyer could waltz in and pulverize both of them. :fear:

Interestingly, the background of Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer in the 5E CU, is very close to that of New Millennium CU's Doctor Destroyer.

[Nolgroth]

Of course Detroit Killing Destroyer could waltz in and pulverize both of them. :fear:Hurm. I thought that 5th Edition Destroyer was pretty much a spruce up of the 4th Edition. Not that I have any first hand knowledge. I just seem to recall perusing the Champions book at the FLGS.


Interestingly, the background of Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer in the 5E CU, is very close to that of New Millennium CU's Doctor Destroyer.Interesting. I may yet have to jump on the Champions bandwagon before 6th Edition comes out and we have the MMO version of events. Hey, then we could have a Fatal Four Way between the different Destroyer versions. The MMO could be Saturday Morning Cartoon Supervillain Destroyer. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Hurm. I thought that 5th Edition Destroyer was pretty much a spruce up of the 4th Edition. Not that I have any first hand knowledge. I just seem to recall perusing the Champions book at the FLGS.

To a large extent, that's true, with a few exceptions, notably no fire-caused facial scars as with 4E, 5E's aging problem, the addition of a noble lineage for the Zerstoitens, and downplaying the whole "dollmaker" thing (although it's still mentioned), which is why I made that distinction. Also, 5E Destroyer is massively pumped up power-wise compared to the the earlier models.


Interesting. I may yet have to jump on the Champions bandwagon before 6th Edition comes out and we have the MMO version of events. Hey, then we could have a Fatal Four Way between the different Destroyer versions. The MMO could be Saturday Morning Cartoon Supervillain Destroyer. :)

:lol:

Actually, there's no need to get into Champions -- just pick up the upcoming Atlantean Age sourcebook. It's ultra-high fantasy with epic magic from when Atlantis ruled the world, and Sharna-Gorak is fully written up in it. :fear:

[Nolgroth]

Actually, Atlantean Age is my latest want from HERO Games.

[Pariah]

I have very little experience with Champions: New Millennium; I think I read part of one of the books in a bookstore for 15 minutes between buses one day and wasn't immediately moved. Admittedly, that gave me no flavor for the setting whatsoever.

And since it's already been brought up, I actually prefer the flavor of 4th Ed. Champions (BBB Era).

[TheQuestionMan]

As a Campaign Setting hmmm...

I can live with that.

QM

[Lord Liaden]

BTW since the subject came up, here's where you can download 4E HERO stats for all the characters from the three New Millennium books: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1127464

[Nolgroth]

Admittedly, that gave me no flavor for the setting whatsoever.Very Image-style Iron Age. It was a very conscious replication of the the dark and moody comics of the 90's. I actually liked some of the setting bits, like the Gate Keys, and hated some other stuff. I still don't get the big Uber-Villain being called the Proprietor. Like he was some sort of icky powerful slumlord?


And since it's already been brought up, I actually prefer the flavor of 4th Ed. Champions (BBB Era).Some of it was okay. Some of it was not. Total mixed bag.

[Shiva13]

No offense to Steve or anyone else at Hero, but I just don't see this. Many old characters have been written out of existence, killed or have been given some minor role in the universe. There are some notable exceptions, but many of the old guard, both hero and villain, don't have any role in the 5th ed CU.

The central -problem came from the fact that the rights to many of those old guard characters were not in the hands of the previous incarnation of Hero Games in the first place. They had to do some serious backpedaling to try to secure as many of the rights to the characters they could. So the changes that resulted in 5th Edition of the Champions line were not only motivated by simple editorial choice.

The rights for Professor Muerte and much of Terror Inc, for example, are in the hands of Heroic Publishing. Even characters originally shown in the Champions rulebook, such as Icicle, exist in the hands of Heroic Publishing. While new forms of of those characters appear now in the 5th Edition.

Also, during the 4th Edition age, there was a push by what editorial hand that was present in at Hero at the time to make a break from many of the characters that went to the hands of Heroic Publishing. Hero Games suddenly wanted as much distance as they could from anything to do with Heroic Publishing as they could. So the agenda of purging started.

Then there was the Champions. The signature superhero group of the setting. It was definitely motivated by the fact Hero Games wanted a fully company owned signature team. Instead of the Guardians, who the rights to individual characters of which were out of their control.

I've actually spoken to the owners of Heroic Publishing, first hand. The whole mess between Hero Games and Heroic Publishing was godawful. It was caused by serious mis-steps on the part of both companies. Vital things that should have been done that simply were not.

The attempt at the first Champions Universe was a real mess. The 4th Edition Champions Universe book was extremely poorly done. It was an attempt to mash almost eve5rything Hero Games ever published into one very overpopulated setting. And the results spoke for themselves.

Champions supplements were published still at disparate power levels. Basically whatever ther author had done for their individual campaigns. This caused massive issues of compatibility. Instead of requiring all published characters to follow a uniform set of guidelines. It was a massive godawful mess,

The 5th Edition Champions Universe, I see as the firm establishment of a sane set of standards by the company. Making sure all characters in the official line are reasonably compatible. While also dealing with the issues of ownership of the characters and overpopulation.

Take a look at it this way. All of those characters that have been edited out in the past? Well they happen to still be owned by Hero Games. Not Cryptic. It leaves them plenty of fodder to create a new setting or set of settings with. Cryptic may own the current Champions Universe, but they do not own all of the characters that are not a part of it.

The Champions Universe, as it now stands, is really what it had to become. If they were to have a company universe at all.


I agree whole heartedly that C:NM also fits the IA motif as well :) I just see the CU more as an Iron Age/post-Modern setting more than modern or neo-silver age.

Yes, I do agree that the current Champions Universe could be classified as late Iron Age. Because it lacks certain elements present in Modern Age comics. But then again, there actually haven't been comics produced based on the current Champions Universe. So it's kind of hard to judge for certain.

One thing that certainly has not been an element of the current Champions Universe are the Neo-Silver Age are the discovery of new frontiers. Most of what exists in the current Champions Universe is already known widely by people in the setting. The challenge and the mystery of new frontiers and/or threats just isn't there. Which is the real hazard of having almost everything defined. Other than fighting the same rogues gallery of threats all of the time, what else is there for the player characters to do?

I can argue that the Champions: New Millenium setting actually is more player-friendly than the current Champions Universe is, because it only has three books in the line. Everything isn't laid out in that setting. Really, they only detailed one city. They never got around to publishing anything that happened in the rest of the world. So people using it can just run with it. The whole world, the whole universe of the Champions: New Millenium setting, is left up to the individual GM to make.

[Shiva13]

I have very little experience with Champions: New Millennium; I think I read part of one of the books in a bookstore for 15 minutes between buses one day and wasn't immediately moved. Admittedly, that gave me no flavor for the setting whatsoever.

And since it's already been brought up, I actually prefer the flavor of 4th Ed. Champions (BBB Era).

That was definitely the same impression I had for a long time about Champions: New Millenium. Until I read it in very fine detail. What I discovered was a pretty well concieved setting. But it took indepth examination to really understand it. The presentation of the first edition of the Champions: New Millenium book didn't help one bit, either. But when I got the Second Edition version, things were far more clear.

[Lord Liaden]

The rights for Professor Muerte and much of Terror Inc, for example, are in the hands of Heroic Publishing.

If Heroic Publishing believes that, they're at odds with what DoJ/Hero Games believes. Scorpia and Feur(macher) are republished for Fifth Edition, Giganto's been mentioned as still alive in continuity, and I received permission from Steve Long to bring back Prof. Muerte for Digital Hero.



One thing that certainly has not been an element of the current Champions Universe are the Neo-Silver Age are the discovery of new frontiers. Most of what exists in the current Champions Universe is already known widely by people in the setting. The challenge and the mystery of new frontiers and/or threats just isn't there. Which is the real hazard of having almost everything defined. Other than fighting the same rogues gallery of threats all of the time, what else is there for the player characters to do?

Well, I think we need to draw a distinction between "detailed in sourcebooks" and "widely known." A lot of stuff that appears in the GM sections of various sourcebooks is still largely secret as far as the wider Champions Universe is concerned, and most PCs should not be privy to it. For example, the hierarchy, bases, and overall plans of VIPER and DEMON are very much the privileged information of their leaders. The existence of the Empyreans and their city of Arcadia is known to only a handful of trusted heroic allies, and the Empyreans go to great lengths to keep it that way. Lemuria is known to exist, but few outsiders guess at even its approximate location, and practically none have visited it. Tyrannon and his dimension of Thulkos are well detailed, but even the greatest present-day mystics have heard only rumors of him. And while the alien civilizations of the Milky Way Galaxy have been outlined in fair detail, early 21st-Century mankind has encountered only a handful of them, and even fewer of the major powers.

There's still plenty to explore; it's just that as GMs we don't have to invent most of it ourselves. ;)

[Sketchpad]

The central -problem came from the fact that the rights to many of those old guard characters were not in the hands of the previous incarnation of Hero Games in the first place...

Yup ...knew that :) I've been a standard bearer of the pre-5th stuff for quite some time and have some broad ideas of who I'd like to see :D As it is, I believe there's just as much merit in the 4th ed & C:NM eras as I do 5th ed. I would love to see many of the omissions from Classic Enemies come back, as well as a more familiar Demon (sorry LL). I miss the old characters and would love to see them return in the post-CO CU :)


Yes, I do agree that the current Champions Universe could be classified as late Iron Age. Because it lacks certain elements present in Modern Age comics. But then again, there actually haven't been comics produced based on the current Champions Universe. So it's kind of hard to judge for certain.

One thing that certainly has not been an element of the current Champions Universe are the Neo-Silver Age are the discovery of new frontiers. Most of what exists in the current Champions Universe is already known widely by people in the setting. The challenge and the mystery of new frontiers and/or threats just isn't there. Which is the real hazard of having almost everything defined. Other than fighting the same rogues gallery of threats all of the time, what else is there for the player characters to do?

I can argue that the Champions: New Millenium setting actually is more player-friendly than the current Champions Universe is, because it only has three books in the line. Everything isn't laid out in that setting. Really, they only detailed one city. They never got around to publishing anything that happened in the rest of the world. So people using it can just run with it. The whole world, the whole universe of the Champions: New Millenium setting, is left up to the individual GM to make.

You don't need a comic based on a setting to give it a feel :) The writing itself needs to lend itself to the genre ... which, in Champions' case, it feels more IA :) It could be written to feel more neo-SA, but it's currently not. Just like C:NM was written to feel edgy and IA-like.

Personally, I'd like to see a superhero universe that feels more like a comic book universe. I just don't feel that way with the current CU :) Of course, YMMV :)

[archermoo]

Take a look at it this way. All of those characters that have been edited out in the past? Well they happen to still be owned by Hero Games. Not Cryptic. It leaves them plenty of fodder to create a new setting or set of settings with. Cryptic may own the current Champions Universe, but they do not own all of the characters that are not a part of it.

I do not believe that you are correct in your assumption. It is my understanding that Cryptic bought the Champions Universe IP from DoJ. As well as the Dark Champions IP. Not just the parts that had already been written up in a 5th edition book, but every part of the CU that DoJ owned.

[Sketchpad]

I do not believe that you are correct in your assumption. It is my understanding that Cryptic bought the Champions Universe IP from DoJ. As well as the Dark Champions IP. Not just the parts that had already been written up in a 5th edition book, but every part of the CU that DoJ owned.
That was my understanding as well 'Moo :)

[Checkmate]

Very Image-style Iron Age. It was a very conscious replication of the the dark and moody comics of the 90's. I actually liked some of the setting bits, like the Gate Keys, and hated some other stuff. I still don't get the big Uber-Villain being called the Proprietor. Like he was some sort of icky powerful slumlord?

Some of it was okay. Some of it was not. Total mixed bag.
I pretty much loved all of it, and that's coming from a guy that hated Image Comics. I've heard a lot of people say this, and I'm not entirely sure it has merit. Sure the Wild Strike is a little dark, but it is a good analogy for the Morlocks from the X-Men of the 80's. The huge Propriator war killed a lot of people, but the reason for this was to give the player characters a reason to shine without being overshadowed. 5th proposed to do the same thing with Detroit (and they proceeded to repopulate the world with uber teams anyway, but that's a different rant).

IMO C:TNM is very 80's X-Men. There are very few power suits, there are no KNOWN aliens, and Mutants really are the next evolution of humans (overall they're superior, smarter, stronger, faster etc.).

[Shiva13]

I pretty much loved all of it, and that's coming from a guy that hated Image Comics. I've heard a lot of people say this, and I'm not entirely sure it has merit. Sure the Wild Strike is a little dark, but it is a good analogy for the Morlocks from the X-Men of the 80's. The huge Propriator war killed a lot of people, but the reason for this was to give the player characters a reason to shine without being overshadowed. 5th proposed to do the same thing with Detroit (and they proceeded to repopulate the world with uber teams anyway, but that's a different rant).

IMO C:TNM is very 80's X-Men. There are very few power suits, there are no KNOWN aliens, and Mutants really are the next evolution of humans (overall they're superior, smarter, stronger, faster etc.).

I can understand the criticism of the Proprieter War from the old fans point of view. It was a Deus Ex Machina to simply wipe out the old Guardians and related super teams and start fresh. But it was certainly frustrating to the fans, who had been waiting for a couple of decades to finally see the Guardians in a sourcebook, as they were originally concieved by their creators. It had been years of teasing with artwork and small strips. The whole Proprieter War thing pretty much was a grand scale F-U on that front. The end of any hope of ever seeing those characters in their original context.

The Heroic Publishing versions of those characters were never the characters in their original context.

There are other characters that never appeared with character write-ups. Like the characters that appeared on the cover of the 3rd edition Champions rulebook. Presumeably, one of them was called the Champion. It also graced the cover of Adventurer's Club #1. But was never even mentioned in the examples in the book. One might presume that the character existed in the original Guardians setting. And there were two other characters on the front of that 3rd Edition rulebook that also weren't detailed anywhere.

As for Image Comics. I admit to collecting mostly the Wildstorm books and some of the later Top Cow stuff. But the McFarlane and Liefeld books left me cold. Most of those books weren't anything like what I viewed superheroes as at all. They were either as bad or worse than the villains they faced in the first place, or were in the hero business for utterly selfish and false reasons.

Looking back at C:NM, it is very Image style in approach. But I would point it as being stylistically more akin to the early Wildstorm style of comics than the rest. Very middle of the road Iron Age style heroes.

I'll comment on Liefeld's central team now. Youngblood. Whose heroes were only in the hero business to be celebrities. Characters whose basic morality was questionable, to say the least. And whose leader used a bow with lethal tips on the arrows absolutely casually. That team seemed more opportunistic and outright craven to me than some villains. This was just not what I was happy with in my superhero comics. And the artwork stunk too.

[Nolgroth]

Don't get me wrong, I liked the setting. The name "Proprietor" is the only thing I found really silly. Well that and Adhesive Girl (don't remember her real name) from Alliances.

I liked Bay City. I thought the Pit was a really cool concept for origin stories and maybe an eventual campaign plot. Liked most of the character origins, including Dr. D. In fact, I like the New Millennium Dr. D. best of all. No need for Takofanes around with that one.

I think my biggest problem with New Millennium was that there was a lot of information that wasn't taken far enough. It truly reflected the Fuzion rules in that it had huge potential that was never fully realized.

That's it. I'm running a Champions New Millennium using HERO 5th rules. Er.....someday. :o

[bubba smith]

honestly, I See The Current Champions Universe As More Modern Age Than Iron Age. Because It Most Definitely Shows A Great Deal Of Respect For The Material Of The Past.

Iron Age Was All About Seriousness And Redefining Conventions. It Was A Period Of Rebellion With A Lot Of Looking Down One's Nose At Silver Age Conventions. While Producing A Lot That Ended Up Appealing To The Lowest Common Denominator.

Champions: New Millenium Reflected That Aspect Of The Iron Age Most Abruptly By The Inclusion Of The Proprieter War As A Vital Element Of The Setting, And The Result Of Most Of The Past Generation Of Heroes And Villains Being Completely Wiped Out.

The Destruction Of Detroit And The Creation Of Millenium City In The Current Champions Universe Was Nowhere Near The Scope Of The Proprieter War. The Proprieter War Ended An Entire Generation Of Heroes In One Shot. Detroit Being Destroyed Just Didn't Have The Same Scope Or Anywhere Near The Same Resonance Worldwide.

Now, The New Millenium Setting I Think Is Ripe For Use As An Alternate World. I Tjust Thing It Is Loaded With Potential.i Think The New Millineum Could Be Used As An Alternate Worldalso I Thinkthe Silver Age Should Be More Respected

[Shiva13]

Also I Think the Silver Age Should Be More Respected

So do I. The Silver Age was really the most significant birthing stage in superhero comics. Much of what exists right now simply wouldn't exist without the Silver Age. It was a period where doing and trying new things on a creative level was out of sheer necessity. And honestly, I think it was the most creative stage in comics.

The detractors of the Silver Age will say that the product produced in that age was under conditions that were too restrictive and limiting. But I for one, don't believe it. The conditions imposed by the Comics Code forced writers to become more creative in their approaches. Rather than relying on tired out old elements. Elements which already had driven the entire comics industry to the brink of collapse. Because the public had gotten bored, because comics had slipped into being the same old thing all of the time, using the same old elements.

That's one thing the Comics Code detractors like to sweep under the rug. The fact that the comics industry was already on the brink of collapse, before the Senate hearings even became a factor. The Comic Book Industry was dying.

[Checkmate]

Looking back at C:NM, it is very Image style in approach. But I would point it as being stylistically more akin to the early Wildstorm style of comics than the rest. Very middle of the road Iron Age style heroes.

I'll comment on Liefeld's central team now. Youngblood. Whose heroes were only in the hero business to be celebrities. Characters whose basic morality was questionable, to say the least. And whose leader used a bow with lethal tips on the arrows absolutely casually. That team seemed more opportunistic and outright craven to me than some villains. This was just not what I was happy with in my superhero comics. And the artwork stunk too.
I still don't see how C:NM correlates to Youngblood. Most of the characters had a very heroic outlook. Defender was downright goofy (man I LOVE that version of Defender), the only slightly dark character was Behemoth, but that was just his origin. His personality was that of a Swashbuckler. Since the setting does away with a lot of the super science and aliens, mystical origins and mutants became more prevalent.

I dunno, none of the personalities were really Iron Age to me.

[JmOz]

I still don't see how C:NM correlates to Youngblood. Most of the characters had a very heroic outlook. Defender was downright goofy (man I LOVE that version of Defender), the only slightly dark character was Behemoth, but that was just his origin. His personality was that of a Swashbuckler. Since the setting does away with a lot of the super science and aliens, mystical origins and mutants became more prevalent.

I dunno, none of the personalities were really Iron Age to me.

I think that the most "iron age" element is the art, which is very image. Also Seeker seems to be a bit darker than bronze age, but not by much, I am reluctant to call him true iron age

[Nolgroth]

I dunno, none of the personalities were really Iron Age to me.You know, you're right. None of the characters were particularly dark and moody. Which is weird considering the setting WAS dark and moody. Anything that kicks off with the death of most of the setting's superheroes and leaves a huge rift of unknown origin and hostile environment in the middle of Golden Gate park is automatically dark and moody.

Late bronze characters, early Iron Age setting. It never did get as dark as the whole Image settings. Although, I did like the first few episodes of WildC.A.T.S. and Cyber Force, come to think of it. Especially WildC.A.T.S. even though I can't quite remember what the acronym stood for. Covert Action <something> <something>?

I suppose that I pressed the current trend in comic books upon the C:tNM setting without even realizing it. Perhaps other readers did too.

And I just realized another thing. I know a lot of people are going to think I am crazy, but I think that I would rather play super heroes with Fuzion rather than HERO. The fast and loose style of play just seems more appropriate to the action style of comics. Just need a better Powers Plug-In.

I'm two seconds from entering ramble mode so that's enough for now.

[NestorDRod]

I can understand your predilection to Fuzion. Personally, my gripe with the system was not its core mechanics, but the fact that it was woefully incomplete. Had it been better presented (or, as you mentioned, had a better Powers plug-in), I think it'd would have come across in a better light.

Then again, I have very little love for the Iron Age setting. I don't find having the only thing differentiating the heroes from the villains being that it's the heroes' name on the title at all entertaining. :p

That, and the "pouches, guns & boobs" artwork made famous by artists like Leifeld. I mean, geez, looking at the pictures of the female characters in the TNM books, I kept thinking, "Wow, it must get very cold in Millenium City, and those spandex tights don't look well-insulated." ;)

[Sketchpad]

And I just realized another thing. I know a lot of people are going to think I am crazy, but I think that I would rather play super heroes with Fuzion rather than HERO. The fast and loose style of play just seems more appropriate to the action style of comics. Just need a better Powers Plug-In.

I'm two seconds from entering ramble mode so that's enough for now.


I can understand your predilection to Fuzion. Personally, my gripe with the system was not its core mechanics, but the fact that it was woefully incomplete. Had it been better presented (or, as you mentioned, had a better Powers plug-in), I think it'd would have come across in a better light.

Count me as another that didn't mind Fuzion but would've liked it better presented. I think that if they had made a Fuzion Core Rules book that was complete and then presented powers in the C:NM book, it would've went 100x better :)
I do like the world a bit more than the 5th ed CU and would love to see some of it mixed into the 6th ed CU ;)


Especially WildC.A.T.S. even though I can't quite remember what the acronym stood for. Covert Action <something> <something>?
Covert Action Team ;)

[Nolgroth]

Count me as another that didn't mind Fuzion but would've liked it better presented. I think that if they had made a Fuzion Core Rules book that was complete and then presented powers in the C:NM book, it would've went 100x better :) No disagreement from me.

I do like the world a bit more than the 5th ed CU and would love to see some of it mixed into the 6th ed CU ;) I can say this much, I like the New Millennium Dr. D. much more than the "doll maker" versions. I think I may have said as much earlier, but I like to beat the dead horse. :dh:
Come to think of it, I liked the New Millennium bad guys better as an assembly anyhow. If I ever do run Champs, Bay City is probably going to be my super city of choice.

Now all I got to do is rewrite Fuzion and create a half-way decent Powers Plug-In. I'll get to that someday. Maybe.
Covert Action Team ;)So the S would have been lower case. Gotcha. :thumbup:

[Checkmate]

Anything that kicks off with the death of most of the setting's superheroes and leaves a huge rift of unknown origin and hostile environment in the middle of Golden Gate park is automatically dark and moody.
With the exception of the "huge rift" the current Champions Universe did the same thing. They killed off all the superheroes with the meteor crashing on Detroit.

I think JmOz has it right, most people looked at the art and just linked it with Image Comics and Iron Age stuff.

[Enforcer84]

Very Image-style Iron Age. It was a very conscious replication of the the dark and moody comics of the 90's. I actually liked some of the setting bits, like the Gate Keys, and hated some other stuff. I still don't get the big Uber-Villain being called the Proprietor. Like he was some sort of icky powerful slumlord?

Some of it was okay. Some of it was not. Total mixed bag.
Well, he did "evict" a whole generation of heroes.

[Enforcer84]

With the exception of the "huge rift" the current Champions Universe did the same thing. They killed off all the superheroes with the meteor crashing on Detroit.

I think JmOz has it right, most people looked at the art and just linked it with Image Comics and Iron Age stuff.
NITPICK!
Detroit killed of a lot, but not all. Since many books have had published heroes in them since that had nothing to do with the Battle of Detroit,


IIRC, EVERYONE with the exception of Marksman died in the Proprietor War.


/NITPICK!

[Checkmate]

NITPICK!
Detroit killed of a lot, but not all. Since many books have had published heroes in them since that had nothing to do with the Battle of Detroit,


IIRC, EVERYONE with the exception of Marksman died in the Proprietor War.


/NITPICK!
Not quite. There was the second class of the Arcadian Academy, a bunch of UNTIL heroes, the Scion's Of Cain were still around, and Dr. Destroyer also survived the battle along with Marksman.

It really was pretty much the same thing, done for pretty much the same reason. Remember 5th ed has been publishing books longer than C:TNM, so 5th ed has had time to kill everyone off, then repopulate the world. This is actually one of my pet peeves with the 5th Ed Universe. Why bother killing everyone off in Detroit if you're just going to throw everyone back in anyway?

[Theron]

Personally, I liked the C:NM setting a lot. It wasn't perfect, and the art choices were indefensible (though the art got a bit better in the later books) but the characters felt interesting and fresh.

Also, and this is an easy one to lose sight of after so much time has passed, C:NM was really the first time someone took a crack at creating a unified Champions Universe history that wasn't cobbled together from a bunch of published adventures and throwaway lines from disparate sourcebooks. Sean Fannon did the best he could with the earlier Champions Universe sourcebook, but let's be honest, it was a mess because there really was no explicit Champions Universe back then, just an implicit one.

Once I got past the art, I found a setting that was rich and chock-full of the mad, beautiful ideas I love in comics. Did I love all of it? Of course not. But it was great fodder for my first "Champions: the Animated Series" campaign and a heck of a lot more interesting in many places than the rather "sanitized for your protection" vibe I get from a lot of current CU material.

In fact, I may use it for my upcoming campaign.