Heroic Level Hit Locations

[Super Squirrel]

I had a player who wanted to strike someone in the Juggular. I had no idea how to treat that damage wise so I used the Head Hit Location.

What would you have done?

[Monolith]

I would have probably of ruled it as a -6 OCV, x4 STUN, x1.5 BODY. That is the averge between a head location and the shoulder location. :)

[GradonSilverton]

NND Strike if successful.......

I'd make it Harder than the head either a -9 or -10.....the head rates as areas 3-5....so in essense he's targeting ares 4...thus 1/3 of the target that has a -8 normally....being NND I'd keep the damage as x2 Body but push Stun up to x6.

[NuSoardGraphite]

First things first:

Where is the jugular?

In the neck. Thats location 5...part of the HEAD location. -8 OCV. I might even charge an additional -1 or -2 because its such precise targeting.

Next, what would the effect of hitting the jugular be?

Lots and lots of blood loss! Thus if I were using the "Bleeding" rules, I would double the normal amount of blood loss generated by the wound in addition to the normal bonuses for hitting location 5 (X2 body/X5Stun/X2NStun). If I weren't using the "Bleeding" rules, then I would just have the opponent lose Body each turn, as if they were below 0 Body. (or perhaps lose Stun and pass out from loss of blood after a few turns)

Easy.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
First things first:

Where is the jugular?

In the neck......

Yeah, the jugular are a series of veins that run along both sides of the neck. They are excessively important for blood flow...when someone get their neck cut, its the jugulars that drop the pool of blood instantly.

....Next, what would the effect of hitting the jugular be?

Lots and lots of blood loss! Thus if I were using the "Bleeding" rules, I would double the normal amount of blood loss generated by the wound in addition to the normal bonuses for hitting location 5 (X2 body/X5Stun/X2NStun). If I weren't using the "Bleeding" rules, then I would just have the opponent lose Body each turn, as if they were below 0 Body. (or perhaps lose Stun and pass out from loss of blood after a few turns).

Absolutly....the only thing I'd add, as I mentioned before, is that the strike automatically becomes NND. Didn't take the time to look it up, but I'm 100% positive that if you find any Throat attack in UMA it will be listed as NND, as well it should. Hit me in the chest and my personal pd can take some of it. Hit me in the throat with the same power and, assuming I dont die, have my windpipe crushed, etc., I'd cry cry cry.

[Super Squirrel]

Well, Rage got his payback (he's the player). He killed the buddy of an Earth Mage when he hit him. The final tally was 10 BODY, 50 STUN and a whole lot of bleeding. The Earth Mage kinda made the wall of a building fall on him. I mean it WAS suppose to be a friendly dual, not a fight to the death.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
Well, Rage got his payback (he's the player). He killed the buddy of an Earth Mage when he hit him. The final tally was 10 BODY, 50 STUN and a whole lot of bleeding. The Earth Mage kinda made the wall of a building fall on him. I mean it WAS suppose to be a friendly dual, not a fight to the death.

The question was is...Did Rage die?

If a player takes his gloves off and takes a leap over the line in my game, they fully understand that the NPC's or Villians can too. Had something along the lines of a small scuffle with low end thigs go bad when a PC snapped a neck...just so happen it was the nephew of the MAIN Villian (was that way before the event occured, I didnt make it up to punish them) and the PC became marked for death. Took 1 more session and it happened, the Thugs were given the order to concentrate on him and no one else in the group...and they did. He couldn't handle 5 of them with team work.

[Super Squirrel]

Rage is not dead yet. This is on HeroCentral, a play by post. Currently the Fire Fae Jin and the Earth Fae Enemy are in a stand off. It turns out Jin and the Earth Fae are old friends and what was meant as a friendly challange turned lethal. Jin has been asked by the Earth Fae to honor his friendship and membership of the gang by killing Caliban (Rage's character) for the death of Neko the Cat Fur.

At the moment we have just passed Phase 12 and Caliban has lost another point of BODY bringing him to -1. He has a normal BODY of 8. As I rule it, he has numerous broken ribs, a broken arm and shoulder. Not to mention he is pinned under a wall.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
Rage is not dead yet. This is on HeroCentral, a play by post. Currently the Fire Fae Jin and the Earth Fae Enemy are in a stand off. It turns out Jin and the Earth Fae are old friends and what was meant as a friendly challange turned lethal. Jin has been asked by the Earth Fae to honor his friendship and membership of the gang by killing Caliban (Rage's character) for the death of Neko the Cat Fur.

At the moment we have just passed Phase 12 and Caliban has lost another point of BODY bringing him to -1. He has a normal BODY of 8. As I rule it, he has numerous broken ribs, a broken arm and shoulder. Not to mention he is pinned under a wall.

EEEExxxxxxccccceeeeeeelllllleeeeent!
-My Inner Evil GM

[bjbrown]

Back to the orginal rules question, I wouldn't allow a character to have a special attack for which he didn't pay.

Attacking the jugular sounds like a special maneuver which the character should buy, just like any attack or martial maneuver. Certainly I wouldn't allow the character to make an NND attack which he didn't buy. Such an attack is available as the martial maneuver "Nerve Strike," for example.

[Super Squirrel]

I ran it as an attack to a specific location. I have it a modest penalty on the roll and the roll was rather successful. But you are right, attacks like that really should require a special power.

[GradonSilverton]

The more I've thought about this (and if this happened mid game I wouldnt have this option) I think I would have ruled as follows....

OCV -10 (Hit location)
DCV 1/2 -1 (Try to do something the character doesnt really know how to do...bjbrown made me think of this concept)
NND (b/c the nature of the location would be NND)
x2 Body
x6 Stun
EGO check (due to the natue of the Throat Colapsing)

Sound good?

[Toadmaster]

Letting people make up hit locations for special effects without making it a part of something they paid for is just opening up a can of worms. Id think that the Jugular veins and Carotid arteries (far more dangerous but located deeper in the neck) are already factored into the head hit location, otherwise soon your players will be buying greys anatomy and pulling this every week, I want to go for the femoral artery (hit location 14 thigh), lower decending aorta (stomach, groin 12, 13), take a shot at the kidneys, slice his hamstring or achilles tendon etc. These are all valid considerations for special martial maneuvers that are bought, otherwise I'd just stick with the hit locations as they stand or make up a super detailed hit location.

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by Toadmaster
Letting people make up hit locations for special effects without making it a part of something they paid for is just opening up a can of worms. Id think that the Jugular veins and Carotid arteries (far more dangerous but located deeper in the neck) are already factored into the head hit location, otherwise soon your players will be buying greys anatomy and pulling this every week, I want to go for the femoral artery (hit location 14 thigh), lower decending aorta (stomach, groin 12, 13), take a shot at the kidneys, slice his hamstring or achilles tendon etc. These are all valid considerations for special martial maneuvers that are bought, otherwise I'd just stick with the hit locations as they stand or make up a super detailed hit location.
"Sorry, you can't attack someone in the eyes no matter how good of a roll you get. You didn't spend any points on a transform power to create blindness. Maybe in 6th Edition if they add it to the hit location chart you can."

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
"Sorry, you can't attack someone in the eyes no matter how good of a roll you get. You didn't spend any points on a transform power to create blindness. Maybe in 6th Edition if they add it to the hit location chart you can."

Never said HERO didn't have some good foder for Murphy's rules.

In your example I'd allow a flash attack with a hefty to hit penalty, in the short term the effect is similar and if the attacker wants the victim to be blinded permanently they can always scoop out ther eyes with a spoon once their down. If they start making this a regular attack I'd make them buy it.

Don't forget CSL's can be used to do extra damage typically with the special effect of hitting a more vulnerable spot. So in the Jugular example allowing a special to hit for a better damage roll is sort of short circuiting rules HERO has already dealt with with CSL's and the die rolling mechanic.

As to the hit locations I'm sure the HERO Cops won't kick in your door for making up a more detailed chart.

But hey its your game, I was just pointing out the Pandoras box you might be opening if you start letting players make such attacks a regular occurance.

[Mutant for Hire]

Also a point: Nail the artery in the neck and that does immediate damage to the blood flow to the brain. Can anyone say extra STUN people?

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Also a point: Nail the artery in the neck and that does immediate damage to the blood flow to the brain. Can anyone say extra STUN people?
Hey now... i suggested a +1 to the Stun Mult...
I'm feeling ya!

[Talon]

I don't think you should make up extra STUNx and BODYx numbers for "new" locations. That said, Hero does have a mechanic for this: Impairing/Disabling wounds.

If someone wanted to attack the eyes, I'd give a -10 to hit, and rule that any Impairing/Disabling wounds would affect vision -- a Disabling wound would almost certainly mean blindness. For an attack on the jugular, an Impairing or Disabling wound might result in extra Bleeding (if that rule were being used) or 1-2d6 NND per Turn from blood loss (if not). I'd use the same guidelines that the book recommends -- lesser NPCs might be knocked out or killed by a wound that would have a more minor impact on a PC or major NPC.

[TaxiMan]

Sounds like a perfect use for the Power skill. I'd add a penalty to the roll roughly equivalent to -1/10ap of the benefit. Since NND (Does BODY?) is +1 (+2?) but there are huge OCV penalties, I'd guesstimate -3 (I hate taking too long for determining these things). If you have all day, figure out the cost of the "new" power and see how much better it is than what he's got on his character sheet.

If he doesn't have the Power skill, he knows he's too inexperienced with his power and/or combat to try. If he's desperate and simply MUST try, I'd say - "Go ahead! Roll a 3."

[NuSoardGraphite]

I understand where you guys are coming from about people "making up hit locations on the fly" but sometimes HERO's you gotta pay points for everything format takes the fun away from potentially imaginative roleplaying and quick thinking. Thats why I'm much more lenient on this sort of thing than most HERO GM's I think.

If someone wanted to hit the "Eyes" location I would let them try....at a -12. An impairing wound temporarily blinds them and a disabling wound permanently blinds them (this is already figured into the Impairing and Disabling rules, thus, there is no violation of the HERO rules :))

Personally, I don't believe that a player who wants to target specific hit locations is trying to "buck" the system...they just want a little more flavor from their combats. Nothing wrong with that. Just make sure that particularly vulnerable hit locations (such as major veins and arteries, Heart, Lungs, eyes etc) are particularly difficult to hit....-10 or more...and you shouldn't have much of a problem with it. A bonus Stun multipler or additional body damage is a reward for making such a difficult shot and a good justification for specific damage if an impairing or disabling wound is achieved.

[Chris Goodwin]

I have a house rule that if you want to hit a specific part of a location (usually the eyes or the heart) you take 1.5 times the basic hit location modifier. Those would be, respectively, -12 and -4. For the jugular I'd say take a -12. Since the heart is only a -4, I probably wouldn't give any special bonuses to damage for targeting it (but think of vampires...).

[Toadmaster]

I don't want to step on anybodies fun but like I said earlier HERO already deals with the extra damage aspect of targeting, Player "I'm going to go for the Jugular" GM "ok, take a head shot and apply some CSL's to cause extra damage". That fits within the rules, provides the desired flavor and has a similar result (head shot + x number of CSL's applied to damage instead of to hit which is about the same as head with an additional penalty), if you want to allow unskilled characters the same option allow +DC for each -2. For special effects such as blinding the target I have no problem with that unless it becomes a regular occurance in which case the character should probably buy it as an attack. I'm the first to toss a rule and make something up if it makes the game better but I think in this case you are overlooking rules that would work without making something up.

But hey if you feel its more fun the other way go for it, I'm certainly not a member of the HERO Rules Enforcement Squad. ;)

[Old Man]

We used to deduce specific head locations from the armor chart in 1st ed. FH. That chart had location 3-eyes/face, location 4-neck, location 5-top/back/side of the head. For the most part it's all just x2 BODY x5 STUN, but we used to play with extra bleeding for location 4 and potential blindness for location 3.

As for called shots, I think we defined the maximum called shot penalty to be -8 or -10... the practical limit is around there, otherwise the minmaxers just take high shots which give them 50% odds of hitting 3-5 at, what, -4 OCV? Something like that.