Malachite vs. Teleios

[Jeff]

Teleios looks pretty obviously to me to be a replacement for good old Malachite. This perturbed me, since I really liked good old Malachite. I've been pondering why Teleios just leaves me cold, and I suspect it's because he's not crazy enough - more inclined to sit around, look kewl, and polish his diabolical VPP allocations than get out there and hideously mutate some puppies for the sheer wicked aesthetic of it or actively pursue world conquest.

I'm wondering if I'm alone in this or if any of you Teleios fans out there can give me a reason to be.

[Broblawsky]

Who IS Malachite, actually? Since I only got FREd a few weeks ago, and never read a HERO book before then, I have no idea.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Broblawsky
Who IS Malachite, actually? Since I only got FREd a few weeks ago, and never read a HERO book before then, I have no idea.

Malachite goes way back to "Villainy Unbound", for 3rd Ed. Champions, published 1988, and got built up quite a lot in the 4th Edition background. (He's one of few of the characters from the later 2nd or 3rd edition books to survive into the 4th edition, and probably the only prominent one in 4th edition stuff.)

Malachite's a master of genetics, a self-styled "Perfect Man", given to medical experimentation, megalmaniacal, and possessed of vast resources - all like Teleios. Malachite is much younger, as he was the creation of relatively recently activated Nazi eugenics work and reached intellectual maturity at an enormously accelerated rate. He reached psychotic maturity early on too - drowned his mother at twelve when she suggested changes to his plans for world conquest. At sixteen, he seized control of some islands off Europe with a mind control virus and declared himself Malachite I. Since then, he's been working on building up greater resources toward world conquest, including work toward a movement in the scientific community for a technocratic culture under his leadership. An additional quirk is extreme vanity - limiting the range of auto-mutation he'l accept, and keeping him in tuxedoes and dress coats to go with the stylish jetpack.

[Jhamin]

OK, this is really subjective I know...

But I've never really been able to seperate Malachite from the Evil Bad guy Christopher Walken played in A View to a Kill. (I think that's the one, it's the James Bond with the finale over the golden gate bridge.)

I guess I just thought that Malachite, while he had more style, was often a bit over the top.

[Monolith]

My guess would be that Malachite was cut because DOJ did not own the rights to the character. Many of the older characters rights were not purchased outright, but were purchased for a specific print run or time period. It is just easier for DOJ to create a new genetics master then to go to all the trouble of rebuying the rights to an older and, to be quite honest, fairly obscure villain.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Broblawsky
Who IS Malachite, actually? Since I only got FREd a few weeks ago, and never read a HERO book before then, I have no idea.

Lets put it this way...

Telios is Malachite without the tuxedo-dinner jacket combo and wierd looking de-evolution gun.

[Killer Shrike]

I prefer Teleios bcs he has the potential for subtlety. He's the ultimate "man behind the curtain" villain. YMMV.....

[OddHat]

Telios is less colorful, but has the potential (imo) for a much wider range of in-game roles.

[Lord Liaden]

I've pondered this for a while now, and I'm torn. I like Malachite's style, and his arrogance and amorality ring more true to me for having been born "perfect". Teleios's history makes him seem almost pitiable rather than truly threatening. Also I like Malachite's having given himself innate powers of self mutation - makes him more formidable. OTOH the way that Teleios operates seems more practical, especially in the New World Order, than the Doom-ish "King of the Malachite Islands." And "Teleios" is just a more appropriate name for such a character.

For my campaign I've decided to combine the two: what this character's mother discovered in the ruined Nazi lab in Berlin was ground-breaking genetics formulae, which she used to create her son, Teleios. However, Teleios's superior genius allowed him to extrapolate those formulae far beyond his mother's discoveries. My writeup for this version of Teleios blends elements of both characters, is closer in personality to Malachite, but maintains hidden laboratories and sells his services in the manner of the official Teleios.

FWIW. :rolleyes:

[Lord Mhoram]

You left a choice out in the poll. I never really like Malachite, and Telios annoyed me. So my vote is neither.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
My guess would be that Malachite was cut because DOJ did not own the rights to the character. Many of the older characters rights were not purchased outright, but were purchased for a specific print run or time period. It is just easier for DOJ to create a new genetics master then to go to all the trouble of rebuying the rights to an older and, to be quite honest, fairly obscure villain. He's not that obscure in the Champions crowd in Oklahoma City.

As to the poll: Malachite has more style and has his mutations power pool to make him a threat even when his master plan is foiled by the good guys. He wins this one hands down.

[death tribble]

I prefer Malachite to Telios.

But then I am old school Champions

[Hermit]

I think, if folks were looking for the first time at both, more would vote for Teleios than are now. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, not always wrong, but powerful ;)

I never could take Malachite that seriously, very Silver Age, and I loved that... but occaisionally TOO corny for me. Teleios seems to have more polish and class compared to the gaudy guy in the jet pack and tux. MInd you, it's all in how you play them; but I'm in the minority in that I think Teleios is vastly more usable to a GM I guess.

[Tech]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
You left a choice out in the poll. I never really like Malachite, and Telios annoyed me. So my vote is neither.

My vote is neither, also but it's reversed for me: I do not like Telios and don't care for Malachite.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Hermit
I think, if folks were looking for the first time at both, more would vote for Teleios than are now. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, not always wrong, but powerful ;)

I never could take Malachite that seriously, very Silver Age, and I loved that... but occaisionally TOO corny for me. Teleios seems to have more polish and class compared to the gaudy guy in the jet pack and tux. MInd you, it's all in how you play them; but I'm in the minority in that I think Teleios is vastly more usable to a GM I guess.

Gosh, that Hermit guy sure has the right idea. I agree with him.

Teleios all the way.

D

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Hermit
I think, if folks were looking for the first time at both, more would vote for Teleios than are now. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, not always wrong, but powerful ;)

I never could take Malachite that seriously, very Silver Age, and I loved that... but occaisionally TOO corny for me. Teleios seems to have more polish and class compared to the gaudy guy in the jet pack and tux. MInd you, it's all in how you play them; but I'm in the minority in that I think Teleios is vastly more usable to a GM I guess.

Well I could see a GM using Malachite effectively, with a few changes. I agree that the dinner jacket and tux look would simply have to go, far to Tuxedo Kamen for me if you know what I'm saying. However, with a few personality tweaks here and there and perhaps with a few altered goals he could make a very effective villain indeed.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Hermit
I think, if folks were looking for the first time at both, more would vote for Teleios than are now. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, not always wrong, but powerful ;)
It might be a little more complicated than nostalgia. Malachite's got history, both in 4th edition supplements and in games played on a 4th edition background. That adds a lot to a character, things that you don't get readily from longer writeups, campaign use sections, and plot seeds. Taken fresh, Malachite wasn't all that special - but taken fresh, I've got a hard time convincing myself not to just leave Teleios up on the shelf entirely.

I never could take Malachite that seriously, very Silver Age, and I loved that... but occaisionally TOO corny for me. Teleios seems to have more polish and class compared to the gaudy guy in the jet pack and tux. MInd you, it's all in how you play them; but I'm in the minority in that I think Teleios is vastly more usable to a GM I guess.
Usable how? I'm having a hard time picturing him doing much - there doesn't seem to be much or any style there or villainous fire-in-the-belly. He's just sort of - around.

I guess maybe one thing to do with him is play up insecurities, even indirectly - the need for control, the fear of intellectual competitors. It could make for attacks, however subtle, against other biotech masters or someone who might be getting too close. That Malachite thread of the technocratic world conspiracy would be open too, and would double as a way to keep an eye on the rest of them.

For that matter, those enormous resources might allow Teleios to sponsor his own Malachite - an apparently hyper-intelligent eugenic masterpiece come-from-nowhere dictator with his own little state and clear ambitions of World Domination. He'd serve as a handy distraction, source of entertainment, and a blind for various activities.

[Hermit]

Wow, I think I may have struck a nerve. I'm saying Nostalgia is a strong factor, not saying that that's the only reason people went with Malachite, but that it helps. My apologies if I offended anyone, it was not my intent.

Excellent point about a history, but I still think on equal footing Teleios is as good or better, though I fully admit that's just my opinion.

Teleios has already been used in my universe to great effect. One PC is a creation if his, and that was a spring board to her origin. What's more, Teleios' tendency to see all man kind as merely test subjects shows promise. He doesn't want to conquer the world merely out of meglomania, he wants to control it so he may advance his own stuides unhindered by the lessers who can't possibly comprehend his work.

I wrote up some plot seed ideas for using Teleios; if you want to see them you can find them here. (http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/freedocs/PlotSeeds.pdf) Page 17 I think. Don't know if they'd be to your taste or not, but clearly I think the guy can be 'used' :)

[DoctorItron]

I picked Teleios. He seems to have more long-term potential as a recurring master villain.

Malachite feels like a one-shot sort of opponent. He's so over-the-top that he's not interesting enough to use over and over again. The analogy that someone made to Christopher Walken's Max Zorn character (I think that's the Bond villain) is very appropriate.

YMMV.

[Bartman]

Malachite

And the reason for this probably is nostalgia. The fact is I have had him as a hunted several times. And a great number of very fond roleplaying memories come from foiling Malachite plots. That is one thing I do regret about the new Champions Universe, the loss of old favorites. Teleios elicits a big ho-hum from me. Malachite in contrast is a hated nemesis. Why they didn't at least keep the name during the retcon, I don't know.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit
I think, if folks were looking for the first time at both, more would vote for Teleios than are now. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, not always wrong, but powerful ;)

I never could take Malachite that seriously, very Silver Age, and I loved that... but occaisionally TOO corny for me. Teleios seems to have more polish and class compared to the gaudy guy in the jet pack and tux. MInd you, it's all in how you play them; but I'm in the minority in that I think Teleios is vastly more usable to a GM I guess. Have to disagree. Teleios seems to be more of a poser, more attitude than anything else. JMO. You can justify almost any plot with Malachite and he's a supervillain! Not just a bad guy.

Not specifically in response to just Hermit - What's this "over the top" stuff? There is very little in the superhero realm that can be considered "over the top" if you like the majority of the superhero genre. If you like brooding Dark Champs or want a "realistic" superhero game (whatever that is?) I suppose he might be "over the top."

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Agent X
Have to disagree. Teleios seems to be more of a poser, more attitude than anything else. JMO. You can justify almost any plot with Malachite and he's a supervillain! Not just a bad guy.
Right. I haven't seen anything you can do with Teleios that you couldn't do with Malachite, including Hermit's very good Teleios plot seeds. I like them; I'd just like to use them with a character that grabs me. I'd like to have Teleios grab me, since he's here, Malachite's not, and to whatever extent is practical, I'd like to use the 5th edition stuff without extensive changes. The thing is to get over that poser feel to the character.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Agent X
What's this "over the top" stuff? There is very little in the superhero realm that can be considered "over the top" if you like the majority of the superhero genre.

Agreed here. For a four color game, there's not much that can be over the top.


Originally posted by Agent X

If you like brooding Dark Champs or want a "realistic" superhero game (whatever that is?) I suppose he might be "over the top."

There are tons of good "realistic" (i.e. realistic human behavoir with super-powers added to the mix) supers settings out there. The Wild Cards novels or almost anything set in the modern day by Zelazny for a start.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by OddHat
Agreed here. For a four color game, there's not much that can be over the top.



There are tons of good "realistic" (i.e. realistic human behavoir with super-powers added to the mix) supers settings out there. The Wild Cards novels or almost anything set in the modern day by Zelazny for a start. The catch is I said "superhero" role playing. Champions is superhero role playing. You can use the rules and do something else but the genre supported thus far is for superheroes.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Agent X
The catch is I said "superhero" role playing. Champions is superhero role playing. You can use the rules and do something else but the genre supported thus far is for superheroes.

Wild Cards then. Or Temps! and Euro-Temps!

Note that I'm not against four-color in any way, shape or form. It's all good. It's just far from the only option in a super-hero game. :)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Agent X

Not specifically in response to just Hermit - What's this "over the top" stuff?

That's cool, to each their own. In my case, I find the jet pack ill fitting for a suiper villain master of genetics. I'm not trying to slam Malachite so much as give Teleios what I see as his due.Perhaps it's a matter of niches, to me, Malachite comes across as a lower grade Dr Destroyer, where as Teleios has a different tilt to his goals/motivations that fills a different area. I find the latter more usable for my campaigns, but, of course, either can be altered to suit a GM's taste.

I know on the "WHo's the smartest in the CU?" thread, someone suggested that it was Malachite who gave Teleios his formula. That's an interesting notion in itself.

[Lord Liaden]

I will admit that when I used Malachite I dumped the jet pack and devolution gun as standard equipment, letting them be part of a Gadget Pool that he had access to. When he did have something like that on him, it fit unobtrusively under his cape. (What can I say, the formal-wear-with-cape look strikes me as quite classy.) ;)

I also admit that I moved his motivations away from being just a sadistic scientific experimenter, or a Dr. Destroyer wannabe. In my campaign he considered himself a true Nietschean superman, but he wanted to raise the rest of humanity up to his level. To that end he experimented on humans to test their potential, released monsters and bio-weapons into the general populace to weed out the weak, and sought out a genetically perfect bride to create a dynasty fit to lead mankind into a new age.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I will admit that when I used Malachite I dumped the jet pack and devolution gun as standard equipment, letting them be part of a Gadget Pool that he had access to. When he did have something like that on him, it fit unobtrusively under his cape. (What can I say, the formal-wear-with-cape look strikes me as quite classy.) ;)

I also admit that I moved his motivations away from being just a sadistic scientific experimenter, or a Dr. Destroyer wannabe. In my campaign he considered himself a true Nietschean superman, but he wanted to raise the rest of humanity up to his level. To that end he experimented on humans to test their potential, released monsters and bio-weapons into the general populace to weed out the weak, and sought out a genetically perfect bride to create a dynasty fit to lead mankind into a new age. Yes, and that all sounds very fun to stop. Teleios' subtlety (as perceived by some posters) seems to me to be quite boring. I've seen subtlety in comics. It comes off very dull much of the time. Where's the drama for the players in being a thorn in the side of some vast master plan if they don't even know they are doing that and simply think they stopped a random crime?

Frankly, Teleios looks like a watered-down Malachite with half the options. Why not have all the options available?

[RavensPath]

Malachite for sure. In my old campaign he was the arch villian of the team. I ran him very Lex Luthorish. Often there, but never got his hands dirty. He ran a worldwide organization of metas that were villians from behind the scenes as well as loads of legit businesses.

The team would just freak whenever they saw him since they couldn't do anything to him but "knew" he was behind whatever had happened.

I was very dissappointed that he wasn't in 5th. (I also didn't use the cape and jet pack.)

Matthew

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Agent X
Yes, and that all sounds very fun to stop. Teleios' subtlety (as perceived by some posters) seems to me to be quite boring. I've seen subtlety in comics. It comes off very dull much of the time. Where's the drama for the players in being a thorn in the side of some vast master plan if they don't even know they are doing that and simply think they stopped a random crime?

Frankly, Teleios looks like a watered-down Malachite with half the options. Why not have all the options available?

You consider armies of clones, viriluent bio-engineered plagues, and home grown super monsters attacking cities 'subtle' ? :) Just as Malachite can be toned down, there is nothing to prevent Teleios from taking it up a notch :D

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Agent X
Yes, and that all sounds very fun to stop. Teleios' subtlety (as perceived by some posters) seems to me to be quite boring. I've seen subtlety in comics. It comes off very dull much of the time. Where's the drama for the players in being a thorn in the side of some vast master plan if they don't even know they are doing that and simply think they stopped a random crime?

Frankly, Teleios looks like a watered-down Malachite with half the options. Why not have all the options available?

You consider armies of clones, viriluent bio-engineered plagues, and home grown super monsters attacking cities 'subtle' ? :) Just as Malachite can be toned down, there is nothing to prevent Teleios from taking it up a notch :D

[Killer Shrike]

Its all a matter of preference.

Since I never liked or used previous editions of CU I cant speak to Malachite from experience running him, but I prefer Teleios for many reasons, which Im not going to go into because I dont have to justify an opinion.

1 thing I will say about Teleios: his approach strikes me as much more "intelligent", as appropriate for someone of his genius. Its a much more practical, much less insane way to go about business. Not all master villains need to be over the top megalomaniacal confronters. Teleios is the kind of master villain who you reveal was behind half a dozen different things the PCs bumped into and thought they had resolved over the last year of play, and half a dozen more they never picked up on. He's insidious and inscrutable. He allows layered plot lines and provides for an environment wherein the PCs are always second guessing whats really going on. As I would use Teleios, he would avoid direct confrontation, never deigning to descend to personal fisticuffs. He's too smart for that. He's elusive and ubiquitous, with fingers into many things but never actually pinned down. Thats subtlety. His pawns and catspaws can be overt, over the top, straightforward, but he himself is beyond all of that.

Thats just my take on it. Others mileage will vary, and objects in mirror are weirder than they appear. ;)

[misterdeath]

Malachite==Lex Luthor of the Silver Age (Purple and Green Battlesuit and all).

Teleios==Lex Luthor, post Byrne.

Both are useful for the right type of games. Personally, Malachite filled the same role in the campaign as any of the other meglomaniacal lunatics, so I didn't use him much.

D

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Well, the Malachite in my campaign combines features of both characters. In general, I use the write-up for Teleios, but use the origin and background for Malachite. I've altered the skills somewhat to be more relevent to the game I'm playing, but otherwise I basically merged them into one being. He DOES own the Malachite Isles, but he can also be subversive as well as over the top. It depends on his mood. As the perfect human being, his perfect mind is constantly planning and plotting. And with his intellect, he realizes there's a time and place for both approaches. Just because Malachite has an ego...it doesn't mean he can't be practical as well.

Rob

[BishopofB&W]

I think Malachite is better suited to an anime-style game. I could see him in Project A-ko. Another reason I prefer Teleios is that I'm tired of villains who are aged Nazis, rejuvenated Nazis, children of Nazis, created by Nazis, etc. It's been overused to the point that outside of Golden Age campaigns it just seems cliched, IMO.

How about a villain without Nazi leanings finding a cache of Nazi supertech and NOT adopting either the attitudes or the look? Even better, a normal discovers it, gives it new colors and insignia, and becomes a hero fighting to stop the type of unethical experiments that led to the creation of Nazi supertech?.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by BishopofB&W
I think Malachite is better suited to an anime-style game. I could see him in Project A-ko. Another reason I prefer Teleios is that I'm tired of villains who are aged Nazis, rejuvenated Nazis, children of Nazis, created by Nazis, etc. It's been overused to the point that outside of Golden Age campaigns it just seems cliched, IMO.

How about a villain without Nazi leanings finding a cache of Nazi supertech and NOT adopting either the attitudes or the look? Even better, a normal discovers it, gives it new colors and insignia, and becomes a hero fighting to stop the type of unethical experiments that led to the creation of Nazi supertech?. I LIKE TO FIGHT NAZIS!