Fringe on Invisibility

[TheChainTyrant]

When purchasing the No Fringe adder for invisibility, must you purchase it for every group you are invisible to, or just once?

For example, does this work?

Invisibility to Sight Group, Hearing Group, and Smell/Taste Group, No Fringe. Total Cost 40 points.

Would I be able to turn off portions of this power, so that I am invisible to certain groups, but not others?

If I were to split the various groups that the character is invisible to into distinct powers, would I need to purchase the adder for each power?

Thanks.

[Sean Waters]

As it is an adder you automatically get it for all senses, but you can always take a limtiation on the adder to reflect reduced utility.

As to switching off bits of the power...not sure. You can certainly change the overall level of effect (I'd let you FADE out rather than just vanishing) but I'm not sure, gleaning priinciples from elsewhere, eg that you have to use advantages - always) that you can't technically switch on BITS of the power - but you could buy it as several powers and switch them independently.

[prestidigitator]

If I were to split the various groups that the character is invisible to into distinct powers, would I need to purchase the adder for each power?

Yes, unless you bought it as a Naked Adder.

[ghost-angel]

Yes, unless you bought it as a Naked Adder.

Even then it works on your Invisibility Power (all sense groups purchased) to the AP Level you purchased the NA for.

[Sean Waters]

I might let you buy the adder with the 'variable sfx' advantage which would then allow you to define it as working in several different ways - eg in effect turning th efringe off for just one sense or any combination.

[Kdansky]

Similar discussion: Assume a character has burning red eyes and his invisibility has a fringe defined as "burning red eyes still visible." Would you:

A1: rule that due to SFX, he can get a No Fringe adder for free if he closes his eyes (and is blind).
A2: buy no fringe as a limited NPA?
B: As A, but only if he does not have decent backup senses (because it's not really a disad if you have a 360° ranged discrimination unusual sense).

Since he has these eyes, they are a Distinctive Feature. Would you
C: Give him more points because they cannot be concealed.
D: make the invis cheaper because it does not disguise his identity (this one is fairly big in game, obviously).

Or any variant of that? :)

[Sean Waters]

Similar discussion: Assume a character has burning red eyes and his invisibility has a fringe defined as "burning red eyes still visible." Would you:

A1: rule that due to SFX, he can get a No Fringe adder for free if he closes his eyes (and is blind).

Cool. I like these :) No. I would allow him to buy th eno fringe adder with a limtiation though, to reflect its reduced utility.


A2: buy no fringe as a limited NPA? Yes, but only if it made sense eg if the invisibility was sight only - if it was hearing too, closing his eyes is not going to make him any quieter.


B: As A, but only if he does not have decent backup senses (because it's not really a disad if you have a 360° ranged discrimination unusual sense). makes not odds to me - if he has decent abckup senses then he paid for them - seems wrong to charge him twice.


Since he has these eyes, they are a Distinctive Feature. Would you
C: Give him more points because they cannot be concealed. Yes, if he wants to take them. mind you, I would not require himt o take the disadvantage; he'd still have red eyes, they would just never come up as an issue, or very rarely.

D: make the invis cheaper because it does not disguise his identity (this one is fairly big in game, obviously). Maybe. Might depend on the type of game. Generally you take invisibility because you want to completely avoid being spotted and to get the combat bonuses. Disguising your identity is rarely the point. It probably would not be worth a cost break, and if it was then it would be a -1/4 at best - and then I'd make SURE it was something that came up.


Or any variant of that? :)

You'd need to discuss matters with the player and see what they really want. sometimes the description is just 'cool', sometimes it is integral to the build - you have to know what you are dealing with, and make sure the concept fits with the rest of the game.

[ghost-angel]

It should be pointed out that there is not such Mechanic as a Naked Adder currently in the rules.

I say that as I suddenly realize Adder costs do not scale like Advantage costs do.

IF you were to allow a Naked Adder, it would work like a normal Adder - in the case of Invisibility work on every sense you purchased.

Also, since you can use or not use Adders as you see fit - it's pointless to purchase them as Naked Adders anyways, unless you're doing something dodgy like trying to avoid AP Caps.

[Sean Waters]

It should be pointed out that there is not such Mechanic as a Naked Adder currently in the rules.

I say that as I suddenly realize Adder costs do not scale like Advantage costs do.

IF you were to allow a Naked Adder, it would work like a normal Adder - in the case of Invisibility work on every sense you purchased.

Also, since you can use or not use Adders as you see fit - it's pointless to purchase them as Naked Adders anyways, unless you're doing something dodgy like trying to avoid AP Caps.

Well spotted :) (There was obviously a fringe on that one)

[Kdansky]

Well, I meant naked Adder because the adder would be limited:

No Fringe, Only while closing eyes (-1 or -2, depending on other senses I suppose).

And yes, the Identity is known when Invis is a big one: You might go invisible and shadow someone. Now if they manage to figure out they are being shadowed, they still don't know by whom. But if your fringe alone gives your identity away, that's a big one!

[prestidigitator]

It should be pointed out that there is not such Mechanic as a Naked Adder currently in the rules.
Hmm. Well, the 5ER index entry is "Naked Power Advantages and Adders". Also, under "Naked Power Advantages" on p. 244 it states, "(A character could also have a naked Power Adder; the same rules apply.)" You're right that you wouldn't have to limit the APs of the power the Naked Adder could apply to, since the costing is different. I assume all the other rules like costing End still make sense. :p

[TheChainTyrant]

Hmm. Well, the 5ER index entry is "Naked Power Advantages and Adders". Also, under "Naked Power Advantages" on p. 244 it states, "(A character could also have a naked Power Adder; the same rules apply.)" You're right that you wouldn't have to limit the APs of the power the Naked Adder could apply to, since the costing is different. I assume all the other rules like costing End still make sense. :p

Thanks for pointing that out. This does mean, if I'm correct, that I could purchase separate invisibility powers and have the naked adder apply to them all. This would give me the freedom to switch off certain invisibilities without having to purchase multiple adders.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

[Sean Waters]

Thanks for pointing that out. This does mean, if I'm correct, that I could purchase separate invisibility powers and have the naked adder apply to them all. This would give me the freedom to switch off certain invisibilities without having to purchase multiple adders.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

Yes, but...

...I think if you only had one adder you could only use it with one power at a time, so only switch off one fringe at a time, at least that is how I'd probably play it.

[TheChainTyrant]

Yes, but...

...I think if you only had one adder you could only use it with one power at a time, so only switch off one fringe at a time, at least that is how I'd probably play it.

Hmm, I was hoping for a more practical solution.

Perhaps, since a character has the option of not using his powers at maximum, I could just apply that to my original invisibility power:

Invisibility to Sight Group, Hearing Group, and Smell/Taste Group, No Fringe. Total Cost 40 points.

Maximum power, in this case, wouldn't be interpreted to mean some gradual scaling effect, but certain portions of the aggregate. That's reasonable, yes?

[Dust Raven]

If it's all bought as one Power, I would definitely allow you to be Invisible to some Sense Groups but not others at any given time, and to use or not No Fringe in a similar way (either on or off). However, it would say that No Fringe applies to any Sense Groups you are Invisible to at the time through the use of this Power. At least officially.

During actual game play, depending upon SFX, I might say the No Fringe may apply to any Sense Groups (or even individual senses), but not all.

[prestidigitator]

Just realized, it might work to buy an Aid that specifically adds that Adder (if approved by the GM), and make it work on multiple powers at once. (And you might want to build it up to adding a bit more than the Adder's normal cost since some of the Invisibilities it adds to might have Advantages that need to be taken into account.)

[Kdansky]

No Fringe (10 cp), only for one sense at a time (-1): 5 cp

Easiest, and very clean. Compare the amount of total senses vs the amount of senses you *could* affect and price the limitation according to that (Reference: Limited Power).

[SteveZilla]

Also, since you can use or not use Adders as you see fit - it's pointless to purchase them as Naked Adders anyways, unless you're doing something dodgy like trying to avoid AP Caps.

Adders still cost END regardless of being used or not. 5" Flight, x32 NCM (30 AP) Costs 3 END to fly 5" at combat speed, or 3 END to fly 160" at Non-Combat speed, or 3 END to Hover In Place. Personally, I think this is one of the things that needs to change with 6th edition.

[Kdansky]

Adders still cost END regardless of being used or not. 5" Flight, x32 NCM (30 AP) Costs 3 END to fly 5" at combat speed, or 3 END to fly 160" at Non-Combat speed, or 3 END to Hover In Place. Personally, I think this is one of the things that needs to change with 6th edition.

I definitely agree on this. Would you be so kind as to point that out in the appropriate forums in behalf of me too? :D