Almost invisible

[Sean Waters]

The current structure for the ‘Invisibilty’ power is all or nothing – you can either be detected with a given sense, or not. If you want it to be harder to detect you, but you don’t actually want to be invisible, you need to buy change environment and make it ‘self only’, or you buy your invisibility with an activation roll.

It seems to me slightly odd that you either need to use a completely different power for ‘almost invisible’ or apply an activation roll (which doesn’t really work – all it does is either have the power ‘on’ or ‘off’) or come up with some custom limitation.

Mightn’t it be a cunning idea to have an intermediate level of invisibility? Currently invisibility to a targeting group is 20 points.

If you build ‘-PER’ with CE then –2 PER comes out at 5 points (8 active), –4 PER comes out at 9 points (14 active) and –7 comes out at 15 points (23 active).

So, I was thinking…we could, instead of using CE, which is not necessarily the obvious choice and, in any event makes for a rather more complex build, either have intermediate levels of invisibility (5, 10 and 15 points for targeting senses, representing say –2, -4 and –8 PER) or do something similar with limitations (-2/-1/-1/4, perhaps), with the rule being that an opponent makes a roll if the penalty takes your PER below 11-. Situational modifiers may apply.

This could result in more rolling, which s a bad thing, but no more than there is with CE, and it seems (to me at least) more logically structured.

Thoughts?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Why not just use Stealth?

[Kdansky]

I tried this and it only turned out to be more complicated. Stealth (and now CE) work fine :)

[Sean Waters]

Stealth makes something harder to spot, but doesn't work well for, for isnatnce, someone who is transparent, so harder to see, maybe even when in plain sight.

CE is the way we do it at present, but that feels a little awkward for two reasons - first because it is not the obvious power to use - we, being somewhat fanatical, know to look for it under 'C' rather than 'I', but it is certainly not the obvious place to look. We should not underestimate the advantages of user-friendliness in encouraging new people to sign up.

Second because building a power with CE, rather than as a custom power, necessitates a little more ink on the character sheet and, to be honest, the rules for spotting something you can't see, or have trouble seeing, could do with a little polish (althought hat isn't a criticism of CE, of course).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Stealth makes something harder to spot, but doesn't work well for, for isnatnce, someone who is transparent, so harder to see, maybe even when in plain sight.Why not? Stealth is just a game mechanic. The SFX of Stealth can be whatever you want them to be. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Why not? Stealth is just a game mechanic. The SFX of Stealth can be whatever you want them to be. :)

Including "small" for characters who are permanently smaller than normal size. That transparent character is reasonably no more difficult to detect with non-visual senses, but then the small character still gives off a scent.

[Chris Goodwin]

Mightn’t it be a cunning idea to have an intermediate level of invisibility? Currently invisibility to a targeting group is 20 points.

Yes. The suggested "Penalize" Power in the 6e forums works well for this.

Stealth doesn't work because it's based on a Skill Roll. I want to give someone a flat -2 penalty, not roll my Stealth against their Perception. Why can't I do that easily?


Why not? Stealth is just a game mechanic. The SFX of Stealth can be whatever you want them to be. :)

Stealth is a game mechanic, true. It's a dice roll vs. a dice roll, not a flat penalty. How do I do a flat penalty?

[Vulcan]

There is also Images... Bright Fringe on invisibiltiy...

[CrosshairCollie]

Hmm. Isn't there a limitation somewhere called 'Bright Fringe', or am I hallucinating it?

[CTaylor]

Images (self only) of being your background works well for partial invisibility, so does the camouflage variant offered for images. You could buy a limitation on your invisibility of "large fringe" which could treat your fringe as infinite: anyone has a chance of seeing you with a PER roll, modified by range.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Stealth is a game mechanic, true. It's a dice roll vs. a dice roll, not a flat penalty. How do I do a flat penalty?I wish I could disagree with you, but your avatar is just too cool. I give; you win. Fnord! :D


(I guess technically you could buy up Stealth with a Limitation "Only to a max penalty of -x", but that's kinda clunky and you could still roll an 18-, etc.)

[ghost-angel]

I use Images for this kind of thing.

[Sean Waters]

Why not? Stealth is just a game mechanic. The SFX of Stealth can be whatever you want them to be. :)

Chris Goodwin gave one good reason, another might be that most characters will not be able to control all the ways in which they can be stealthy, for instance, most people cannot control their scent, or mask it, absent some external agent (deodorant, or perfume, for example). So, no matter how good you are at stealth, you can't just turn off your smell.

[Sean Waters]

I use Images for this kind of thing.

Well therein lies a problem too. Images seems liek it might fit the bill, CE seems like it might fit the bill. We have this freaky thing about CE not being able to create images, like light, and I do not think it is at all clear how you would build a chameoleon - someone who is more difficult to target, even if they are moving. Sure you can buy extra DCV levels, wave your hands a lot and pray, but both images and CE are AoE powers and it would be nice to have something dedicated to making the individual harder to perceive AND some nice cuddly rules as to how that would actually work mechanically in game play.

[ghost-angel]

Fuzzy Around The Edges Images, Self Only, -3 PER

It works, it's clean. I don't really care about the arguments of 'sudden departure from rigidity' that this use of Self Only permits.

Most importantly, it's simple and fast to use In Game.

[CTaylor]

Change Environment I'd avoid if possible because of it's intended use: to alter then environment rather than the appearance of the environment. Making CE self only is just weird anyway, it's supposed to give only negative effects, why would you do that to yourself?

[Sean Waters]

Fuzzy Around The Edges Images, Self Only, -3 PER

It works, it's clean. I don't really care about the arguments of 'sudden departure from rigidity' that this use of Self Only permits.

Most importantly, it's simple and fast to use In Game.

Agreed, but what it is not is the obvious place to look for this sort of power.

I'm also pretty sure that if you asked Steve, the 'official' way to do something like this would be with a self only CE (which, to be fair, is an equally simple build, and a lot cheaper). The other advantage of CE, I suppose, is that you can decide the combat effects of the power - you can, in effect, reduce your opponent's OCV against you.

[Sean Waters]

Change Environment I'd avoid if possible because of it's intended use: to alter then environment rather than the appearance of the environment. Making CE self only is just weird anyway, it's supposed to give only negative effects, why would you do that to yourself?

I'm not arguing in favour of CE, you understand, but it is the official 'stealth suit' build and you are not giving yourself the effect you are making everything int he area of effect harder to see - it just happens to be that you are the area of effect.

[Chris Goodwin]

A few months ago I asked Steve a question about CE, essentially angling toward this exact use. If there's a penalty inducing CE (assume Perception for these purposes) in between you and the target, or if the target is inside it, then yes, you get the penalty. So, you could do something like a one hex (Accurate?) CE, No Range, Personal Immunity, maybe Invisible Power Effects, with some Perception penalties in it.

It's also clunky as hell.

[CTaylor]

Yeah as a GM I'd rule that if you take a self only Change Environment, you're afflicting yourself. It's an attack power of sorts (at least at present, I'd argue it should be able to produce positive effects as well) and if you use an attack on yourself, you get the bad stuff.

The official stealth build as far as I know is Images as camouflage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah as a GM I'd rule that if you take a self only Change Environment, you're afflicting yourself. It's an attack power of sorts (at least at present, I'd argue it should be able to produce positive effects as well) and if you use an attack on yourself, you get the bad stuff.

To me, the limitation "Self Only" on CE is a misnomer - it is shorthand for "Applies penalties only when self is the subject of the roll". But it's useful shorthand - the longer verbiage is quite a mouthful.

[Manic Typist]

Activation Roll REALLY seems like the way to go.

Compare it to Armor you've designed with an Activation Roll. You are hit. Now, the power is always "active," but you roll to see whether or not it makes a difference this time.

Same for this. Every time someone could plausibly see you, roll. If you fail, that means they can see you (not that they WILL see you, mind).

[ghost-angel]

To me, the limitation "Self Only" on CE is a misnomer - it is shorthand for "Applies penalties only when self is the subject of the roll". But it's useful shorthand - the longer verbiage is quite a mouthful.

This is also how I see Self Only on CE, Images and other similar Powers.

[Sean Waters]

To me, the limitation "Self Only" on CE is a misnomer - it is shorthand for "Applies penalties only when self is the subject of the roll". But it's useful shorthand - the longer verbiage is quite a mouthful.

...which , of course, dings another one of my bells - creating a 'limitation' which is also an advantage (in this case you get PI for free).

[Sean Waters]

Activation Roll REALLY seems like the way to go.

Compare it to Armor you've designed with an Activation Roll. You are hit. Now, the power is always "active," but you roll to see whether or not it makes a difference this time.

Same for this. Every time someone could plausibly see you, roll. If you fail, that means they can see you (not that they WILL see you, mind).

I did think of that but, if you were to do it, RSR would be better because otherwise you do not differentiate between people with different perceptive ability. Trouble is you cannot vary the roll (to make you harder to see) and, frankly, the limitation is far too limiting for the points.

[prestidigitator]

How about DCV CSLs? Possibly bought as a Power with suitable Modifiers (such as Persistent and not against attackers using a Targeting sense other than sight). Possibly linked or just combined with a bonus to Stealth. It seems like people are getting a little hung up on the system mechanics themselves ("No, I want a penalty to their attack roll, not a bonus to my defense") rather than just letting the system do it the way it is designed.

[Chris Goodwin]

How about DCV CSLs? Possibly bought as a Power with suitable Modifiers (such as Persistent and not against attackers using a Targeting sense other than sight). Possibly linked or just combined with a bonus to Stealth. It seems like people are getting a little hung up on the system mechanics themselves ("No, I want a penalty to their attack roll, not a bonus to my defense") rather than just letting the system do it the way it is designed.

Except that it's not a penalty to their Attack Roll, but their Perception. How does bonus DCV affect someone else's Perception?

The problem is, it should be a lot simpler than it is.

[CTaylor]

The way I see it, Images affects you too: if you buy images you see the thing you created just like everyone else, and it's just as convincing an image, you just know it's fake. You aren't unaffected by the power, you're just aware of what it's doing and aren't fooled.

When you buy images on self only, you still are affected. You look down and you look like the image to you too - you just know it's fake. If you buy Images "look like background" then you look like the background to you too. That's why it's not an advantage, you aren't getting personal immunity. You just know where you are and that it's an image so it doesn't have the same effect on yourself as others.

Incidentally this brings up one of the more useful builds with images: it doesn't have to fool people to be useful, even if someone knows that image is fake they still see it, it can point a direction or say words, etc.

[Sean Waters]

The way I see it, Images affects you too: if you buy images you see the thing you created just like everyone else, and it's just as convincing an image, you just know it's fake. You aren't unaffected by the power, you're just aware of what it's doing and aren't fooled.

When you buy images on self only, you still are affected. You look down and you look like the image to you too - you just know it's fake. If you buy Images "look like background" then you look like the background to you too. That's why it's not an advantage, you aren't getting personal immunity. You just know where you are and that it's an image so it doesn't have the same effect on yourself as others.

Incidentally this brings up one of the more useful builds with images: it doesn't have to fool people to be useful, even if someone knows that image is fake they still see it, it can point a direction or say words, etc.

It is slightly more than not being fooled: images only blocks line of sight if you fail the PER roll, so whether you know it is a fake or not, a PER roll allows you to sense through it. You still sense it, but it doesn't stop you sensing other stuff.

I'm absolutely with you though - you don't need personal immunity for images. You probably should be taking it for CE though, but system wisdom strongly implies you do not need to (grrr....)

[prestidigitator]

And characters who are persistently small are supposed to buy DCV levels and Skill Levels with Steath and such. Why? They are harder to perceive (and they offer smaller collision cross-section as well, but even the difficulty in perceiving a target would seem to me to make them harder to hit).

Again, are you looking for a way to force the mechanics, or a way to USE them to build your character/power concept? Heck, maybe limited Shrinking IS the power you are looking for. :-P

[Hugh Neilson]

...which , of course, dings another one of my bells - creating a 'limitation' which is also an advantage (in this case you get PI for free).

Or you can rule that the character suffers the same penalties to perceive himself...which tends not to be a major issue anyway, but there you go.

[Sean Waters]

And characters who are persistently small are supposed to buy DCV levels and Skill Levels with Steath and such. Why? They are harder to perceive (and they offer smaller collision cross-section as well, but even the difficulty in perceiving a target would seem to me to make them harder to hit).

Again, are you looking for a way to force the mechanics, or a way to USE them to build your character/power concept? Heck, maybe limited Shrinking IS the power you are looking for. :-P

Hmmm...maybe it is :)

[Sean Waters]

Or you can rule that the character suffers the same penalties to perceive himself...which tends not to be a major issue anyway, but there you go.


....which dings another of my bells - defining a power so that it carries advantages. If the area of effect is 'self' then you are in the area. The power is 'reduced PER' not 'reduced PER to see me' - that is like defining an EB as 'only to affect enemies' - it might be PHRASED like a restriction but it really is not.

[Hugh Neilson]

....which dings another of my bells - defining a power so that it carries advantages. If the area of effect is 'self' then you are in the area. The power is 'reduced PER' not 'reduced PER to see me' - that is like defining an EB as 'only to affect enemies' - it might be PHRASED like a restriction but it really is not.

By making it "self only", it becomes "reduced PER to see me", primarily because "self only" as used in this context is really a completely separate limitation which probably should have been renamed.

Really, this "self only" variant is at least a completely different power modifier, perhaps better represented as a non-area effect version of Change Environment which imposes penalties only in respect of actions taken against its target.

Chameleon Kid would then take this with Self Only and No Range to impose PER penalties when people try to spot him, while Transparency Transformer could keep the Range and not restrict the power to himself, simulating his ability to make anyone transparent.

Cross posted to 6e Powers A-E.

[Sean Waters]

By making it "self only", it becomes "reduced PER to see me", primarily because "self only" as used in this context is really a completely separate limitation which probably should have been renamed.

Really, this "self only" variant is at least a completely different power modifier, perhaps better represented as a non-area effect version of Change Environment which imposes penalties only in respect of actions taken against its target.

Chameleon Kid would then take this with Self Only and No Range to impose PER penalties when people try to spot him, while Transparency Transformer could keep the Range and not restrict the power to himself, simulating his ability to make anyone transparent.

Cross posted to 6e Powers A-E.

My problem is that CE imposes PER penalties on anyone in, or perceiving into the affected area. If the CE was self only then it would work as required for those looking INTO the area - i.e. make the 'self' more difficult to perceive, but the 'self' being int he area would, or should, also receive the penalties - not just for perceiving the self but BECAUSE they are in the area, against everything, as the 'self' is the target of a reduced perception 'attack'.

I do understand that Hero doesn't seem to think of it that way, but as a matter of principle, even a self only CE SHOULD require PI if the 'self' is not to be affected 'generally'. I'd have no objection if the player accepted that they could not percieve as well witht he power up generally, but could see themselves perfectly well - that is within the realm of sfx - but to say that they are impaired in seeing themself, but OK to see everything else is giving too much credence to the (for instance) 'transparent' sfx.

I do not think you should be able to get round it by simply defining the power as only working to conceal the self - that is not the power, and is too much of an advantage to simply be dealt with by sfx, given the existence of a PI advantage. If the sfx was, for instance, that the character is surrounded by a roiling layer of shadows that made them harder to see then it would be pretty obvious they should have difficulty seeing 'out', and sfx should not change teh way you build the power.

Also cross posted.