Norse Hero PC builds- feedback welcome

[Manic Typist]

Hello everyone. In case you didn't already know, I'm designing the PCs for Ragnarok's Norse Hero game which will take place in the spring. The reason for this is because I know the rules, I have the books, and I have HeroDesigner.

Ragnarok is one of five players whom I introduced to Hero this past year and we had a fairly well received Fantasy Hero game. Rag and one player will be gone this coming fall (to study abroad) and I will be studying abroad in the spring. I love roleplaying, I love sharing the joy of roleplaying, and therefore I REALLY want the gaming to continue both when I am on campus and when I am away. Especially since it increases my odds of getting to PLAY, in addition to GM.

So I intend to run a short, intensive "teaching" game for the fall term, and Rag will step in and run his game when he returns and I leave.

The reason I mention all this is so you can see the context in which these characters are being created, and can examine/advise accordingly. It is highly likely that these sheets will be run with very limited access to Hero material, and thus I really want them to be straightforward yet still versatile. I will attach a fairly detailed breakdown/advice sheet once the characters are truly completed.

The game is likely going to be combat intensive. I have a hunch it will probably be around 60-70% combat and the rest "intrigue."

Three of the four PCs are near completion and I will share them now.

Let's start with the half-elf, shall we? (attached)

Overall I'm satisfied with this character. I would like to add in some sort of specific modifiers to his skill rolls to help him "only while in the woods" or otherwise make him more..."leafy." But that might not be essential, and I'm not sure what I would cut. I guess if I had to, I would nix the Combat Archery.

Next post, next character....


Edit: I did not write the backgrounds. I mentions this so you don't hold any sort of writing errors against me, and so that you can better appreciate having to build these characters almost solely from reading the backgrounds. I've had some additional input from the GM, whom apparently the players have told a bit more. Still, we are both so busy and it is hard to communicate through a purely digital medium.

[Manic Typist]

Here is the human warrior. He's the most tactically/team oriented of the bunch (due to being the only one to really allude to such things). Overall, I am largely content with him as well.

However, I would like to draw your attention to the Everyman list. The last character's was shorter, but I was ok with that since I felt the character comes from a very isolated environment. With this one and the future characters, I'd like to try to ensure there is some balance/parity (at least in number of Everyman skills).

Also, apparently the player wants this character to be good with throwing axes. Supposedly it is his "favored" method of attack. Can't really tell that from the background, but I suppose the player mentioned it to the GM and not to me... *sigh* The CSL I gave him with "All axes" applies to thrown axes as well, or at least that is my intention.

Also, the player would like the character to be good in the woods/forests/forest fighting. While I believe this is largely achieved through the use of Tactics, Stealth, and other clever applications of what is already on the sheet... can you offer suggestions for this? Perhaps Skill Levels to various things, while only in the woods? I could even seen Environmental Movement, though I hesitate on that simply because I want to help preserve some of the "shtick" of the half-elf.

Also, how do I represent hunting? Tracking and PS: Hunter? The reason I ask is because... well, these guys need to feed themselves, and at above the simple "Survival" level. You need a full belly to properly hew your enemies!

[Manic Typist]

Now this character is the one that I feel is incomplete, and in two ways:
1) Right now he can make weapons and armors (at least I think he can)... but he can't make them magical. I have not given him anything to inscribe runes into the weapons and armors he might potentially make. True, this might not come up for a bit since they'll be moving around so much... then again, it might. If I do add it, I should probably also add at least one KS: Runes or somesuch related skill.

2) I want to give him a few maneuvers, especially since he's the only one to put in the thought of coming up with some. Just a few basic ones, two or three... but I am a little hazy on how to create new Martial Maneuvers in HD and....


For both of these, I need to find something to cut. Perhaps Metallurgy, but that would only get me 3 points and is kind of "1 step forward, 1 step back."

Thoughts?

[Shadowsoul]

Rhys seems to be all about stealth and shooting things, not unusual for a Wood Elf type. However, with that strength he's only going to be able to use a light longbow, rapid fire will offset that somewhat but well armoured opponents will be able to laugh off most of his attacks.

If most opponents aren't going to be well armoured then this may be fine. Otherwise I'd suggest knocking a point of Dex off him since it won't affect his CV or skill rolls and increasing his strength to 12 or 13 so he can use a medium longbow. Or if you want to be really kind to him you can borrow one of Eosin's tricks and allow him to buy Strength, Only for Str Min with Bows (-1), that would allow him to use a heavy longbow without being too brawny.

The only other thought I have is that perhaps he should have Concealment for use in ambushes and so on.

As for Felnor. I'd pretty much represent hunting the way you would. Tracking, Only in Forests, (-1) is a possibility. Or Skill Levels that only apply in the woods e.g 'Woodswarrior' +2 to Stealth, Tactics and Tracking, Only in Woodland (-1), 3 points over all.

One other little point. If you're applying a skill level to all axes then it should cost at least 3 points.

How would you build rune crafting? Being able to create permanent magical items is something that's difficult in the Hero System. Unless he simply spends xp to create new items. For the moment you could drop one or two basic Rune Knowledges into his Everyman Skills.

[Chris-M]

Finally checked these out this morning, MT. Alas, Shadowsoul beat me to most of my comments (and of course, spotted a few things I didn't).

I had the same thought about extra STR only with longbows.

As for the rune-crafting thing to make magic weapons/items, if it's a temporary effect it can be built as some kind of magic (i.e. spellcasting) variant. If it's to be permanent, I knew a guy once who had an enchanter character in a Fantasy Hero game he was running, and he let that guy spend his permanent XP to make weapons, trading 1 XP for 3 or 5 (I forget what it was) CP to build magic items with, but there was a set of blanket Limitations they had to be built with as well. I never played in any of those sessions, but he said it went well in part because it was a fairly cinematic campaign and he was fairly liberal with the XP anyway.

[Manic Typist]

Hm. Hadn't thought of the bow and strength bit. I'll either increase it for Bows Only...or...you know... elves can make bows that are just as strong while requiring lower STR mins. ;)

No need to worry about points and MAKING magic items, at least how I'm used to playing. Think of it like finding an item in game- if you want to keep it (and almost guarantee you keep it), you pay points for it. If you just use it until you lose it/it's fulfilled it's purpose... you don't pay points. So I'd leave that to the GM. Rag would arrange for the eventual disposal of anything made unless it was used up/paid for. That would be my first guess, anyway.

Thanks guys. Keep it coming. I won't be back until Sunday evening. Got a weekend in Montreal...

[Ragnarok]

Hello all. I'm just checking in with a bit of news. The guy who intended to play the half-elf PC, Rhys, will not be joining us anymore. I would still like to use the character concept, however, and fully intend to use it as an NPC at some point. With that in mind, I'd like to throw in my $.02 US.

About the deal with the strength and the bow - I support the STR for Bows Only option. This is for two reasons. The first is that it is, in my mind, quite possible to pull back the draw weight of a bowstring with less effort than to dead-lift it from the ground. As an archer, Rhys would have developed muscle groups specifically to aid him in shooting said bow, but that doesn't mean he would be as good in other strength-related areas. The second reason I support this option is that if we were to say that elven bows are specifically designed to have equal power but requiring less strength, we would probably have to make that a magical item. Normally that wouldn't bother me, but what would happen then is he would lose a LOT of his combat efficiency were he ever to be deprived of that specific bow. After all, how many magical elven bows are floating around far from elven territory?

In regards to the issue of the runes, I tend to agree with Chris. If it's a situation where he says, "Hey, I need to make a sword, but this sword needs to be a flaming sword for just a few hours" then some sort of spell-forging would be in order. If it's a situation where he says "Hey, I intend for this suit of armor to heal me for as long as the equipment lasts" then that's where the XP costs come in. Sound reasonable?

[Manic Typist]

Any thoughts of how I can shave a few points on the dwarf for his Rune Skills and (more costly) some Martial Maneuvers?

[Shadowsoul]

Trollslayer can only be used with Axes? I'll leave how much of a disadvantage that is up to you.

It's not very Dwarflike but I suppose you could drop his Stun down a few points.

Does he really need Survival? Couldn't he be a city boy who stayed at home forging things or guarding things rather than wandering the outer tunnels on his own?


Taking a few steps back here but shouldn't he have the Armoursmith Skill? Or will you let 'Blacksmith' cover that?

[Manic Typist]

Very much in the middle of massive changes version of the Elementalist (whew, that's a mouthful!)

[Ragnarok]

For Tinner, or Jax as he now wants to be called, I think we can afford to shave a few things off.

1. Fast draw - out of all the things on there, this seems the most unnecessary. He doesn't rely on his shortsword that much, and if he knows what's good for him he'll let the beefier guys take up the front line, giving him time to react. Cost - 3 points.

2. The spells probably could all be looked at. Of course, we agree on having the bracelet and the sword be the foci for his spells. We could also afford to tone down his ED from Protection from Ice.

3. Cold Feet - Since he didn't specifically request it, we can probably dump it if we need to. Cost - 2 points.

4. Sense Magic - He didn't request this one either, and if we can dump it then there's half of the points we are over. Cost - 12 points.

So, there are at least 17 points we can get away with dumping. If, in the process of your spell-crafting you are able to do away with more than 8 points, then maybe we can keep some of the flavor stuff like Cold Feet. We shall see.

[Killer Shrike]

Got pics for these characters?

[Killer Shrike]

Very much in the middle of massive changes version of the Elementalist (whew, that's a mouthful!)

The base points and xp page is out of whack on the original character so I'm not messing about with that. Im also not sure of the nature of the magic system(s) in use in this campaign. Yet, with that aside, here is a pass on the Elementalist...

[Killer Shrike]

The points on these characters are a bit scattered...what is the desired point level?

Anyway, here is a pass at Rhys. I found the character to be kind of a boring / standard elven archer type; served its purpose but pretty generic.

I tweaked the character around a bit to have a Ranged Martial Arts package instead. Gives the character more room for growth, and the opportunity to pick up some good shtick abilities like the Ranged Disarm I added.

[Killer Shrike]

Here's a pass at Hadhood. I didnt really change anything of note, just a couple of minor tweaks...

[Killer Shrike]

Here is Felnor.

I see now that most of these characters are floating in the 125 point range, so the elementalist is WAY over points.

[Killer Shrike]

Heres a 125 point version of the elementalist. I cut the character to the bone, though I left some abilities that I would personally cut like the squirrel (???) and the nobility perk and the egregious WF's, but even dropping those 9-11 points he's still solid and perhaps the most useful character of the bunch. His main problem is no defenses, so he'll need to be smart with the ice entangle (tip: make a lot of ice barriers).

The Coldsnap ability is probably his most useful since it severely hampers melee attackers. On the other hand, his teammates need to stay away from him too when he uses it. FYI, read up on the effects of entering a Change Environment that imposes characteristic roll penalties -- it can be pretty brutal.

[Killer Shrike]

Some comparisons

[Bismark]

A couple more ideas to throw in your general direction:

To re-use a post I made a while back, there is always the Brewmaster idea (who creates magical effects from brewing magic beer/mead - I used it successfully in a Valdorian Age game);

Also the Skald - a Nordic-style Bard (bring on that harp, baby :eg:);

Of course, being from this culture, you would expect them both to be perfectly capable fighters as well (it would be embarrassing if they were not) - their magic is quite low-key, which leaves quite a few points over for 'hacky-slashy' stuff.

[Credit where credit is due: both of these ideas come from Swords and Sorcerors; a cultural add-on for Chivalry & Sorcery 1st ed. - which is still sitting on my bookshelf (it's almost a loose-leaf job now, but it's still there :)).]

[Killer Shrike]

Yah; for the Machtig in my San'Dora setting I used the Sortiligist Magic System on my site for Skaldingkraft and one of the PC's was a Skald -- Thrymri (http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/PCs/VmundrThrymriFinnvarsson.HTML). Here is a ready-made package on that model: Skald (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/CompositePackages/Skalding.aspx). Also, here are a ton of Packages for different kinds of "bards" using several different Magic Systems: Bards of Many Stripes (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/professionPackage.aspx?profession=bard). In particular, the aforementioned Sortiligist (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/sortilege.aspx) and the familiarity based Troubadorus (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/troubadours.aspx) Magic Systems on my site are tailored for music / performance based magic.



For a brewmaster concept, I don't have resources as deep; I just tap into a subset the general guidelines I present for making temporary / finite use magic items for "Alchemy (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItemsArtificing_Ephemeral.aspx#ALCHEMIS TS)" and offer a Master Alchemist (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/BasicPackages/AlchemistMaster.aspx) package.



But, regardless, it really comes down to what players want to play. If none of them want to play a Skald or alchemy oriented character, the c'est la vie. Going over the basic concepts of these characters Ragnarok and Manic have presented, their "norseness" is a pretty thin veneer anyway; seems like more Norse-seasoned than hard core Norse. ;)

[Manic Typist]

Lots to digest for now, but very appreciative, and I hope people spread the rep where I can't.

Brief response while I look this over:

Characters are to be a max of 125 points. They get 10 XP for creating a character background and finding a character image. Some of them are lagging on that, but we've been working as if they will make good on that...

Also, the player for Rhys (the elf) has unexpectedly had a change in situation, and therefore will not be able to play. Sad. :(

[Ragnarok]

But, regardless, it really comes down to what players want to play. If none of them want to play a Skald or alchemy oriented character, the c'est la vie. Going over the basic concepts of these characters Ragnarok and Manic have presented, their "norseness" is a pretty thin veneer anyway; seems like more Norse-seasoned than hard core Norse. ;)

You must remember that this is essentially an introduction to Norse elements of play. I wouldn't expect my PCs to play hard-core Norse characters, because they simply don't have enough information to do that. My goal is to introduce them to the Norse aspect without submerging them in the thousands of delicate intricacies that comprise full Norse culture.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to discredit them quite yet. They have plenty of room to grow into a more authentic figure. I'm just trying to guide them along that path.

[TheQuestionMan]

Some comparisons
Your making me look bad Killer Shrike. I am gonna have to retire my Links and Resources crown to you.


Hail to the King Baby!


QM

[Killer Shrike]

You must remember that this is essentially an introduction to Norse elements of play. I wouldn't expect my PCs to play hard-core Norse characters, because they simply don't have enough information to do that. My goal is to introduce them to the Norse aspect without submerging them in the thousands of delicate intricacies that comprise full Norse culture.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to discredit them quite yet. They have plenty of room to grow into a more authentic figure. I'm just trying to guide them along that path.

Sure. No criticism intended, just an observation.

[Killer Shrike]

Your making me look bad Killer Shrike. I am gonna have to retire my Links and Resources crown to you.


Hail to the King Baby!


QM
Weary is the head that wears the crown; I hereby abdicate in your favor. ;)

[Killer Shrike]

Did anything ever come of this?

[Manic Typist]

Yes. Classes started and I've been inundated with work, which is slowing more important efforts (i.e. roleplaying) immensely.

But, I will be continuing this thread, don't you worry.

[Killer Shrike]

K. Well, I ran the update process for my Character Master List this morning, and these four got picked up and moved to the server.

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/ManicTypist/Felnor%20Arkrinder.HTML
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/ManicTypist/Hadhood.HTML
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/ManicTypist/Jax%20the%20Elementalist.HTML
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/ManicTypist/Rhys.HTML

Which means they also show up on the Master List:

http://www.killershrike.com/charactermaster/CharacterGenreList.aspx?Genre=Fantasy

[Casper]

First let me say thanks for all the work on the characters, I can vouch for Manic (I live with him and he is always busy). Rag's currently "studying abroad" in the UK so i don't know how often he checks the forem.

I'm really looking forward to smashing some heads when this campaign starts...

[Manic Typist]

And another one joins the fold...

[Manic Typist]

Alright. Last week I looked over the builds Shrike created and compared them to the original builds. In the meantime I had already managed to trim the characters down to 125, so that made the comparisons a little more difficult but overall it was very helpful.

I liked how you added Separators to the Skills to help organize it, and I've adopted that change.

I really like how you put the magic items as equipment, and just tagged their cost in the Powers section. However, I don't think I'll do the same for Talents and such, since these are beginning players who will be making do without an experienced GM or even much in the way of books. Likely, the only resource they'll have while I'm gone is you guys, and I think moving stuff over to Powers might make things just a teensy bit harder for them than it otherwise would be.

One note- for Jax I believe, you gave him an AK and CuK for a total of 5 points, when each separately is 3 points (for 6). Is there a justification/mechanic I'm not aware of? (I'm all for point breaks, I just like to be able to look at something specific to explain it. Ultimate Skill?)

Right now I'm still leaning towards a VPP, mostly for: familiarity, and it allows room for growth at less cost later. Can you share your reasoning for transitioning over to an Elemental Control?

[Killer Shrike]

Alright. Last week I looked over the builds Shrike created and compared them to the original builds. In the meantime I had already managed to trim the characters down to 125, so that made the comparisons a little more difficult but overall it was very helpful.

I liked how you added Separators to the Skills to help organize it, and I've adopted that change.

I really like how you put the magic items as equipment, and just tagged their cost in the Powers section. However, I don't think I'll do the same for Talents and such, since these are beginning players who will be making do without an experienced GM or even much in the way of books. Likely, the only resource they'll have while I'm gone is you guys, and I think moving stuff over to Powers might make things just a teensy bit harder for them than it otherwise would be.

One note- for Jax I believe, you gave him an AK and CuK for a total of 5 points, when each separately is 3 points (for 6). Is there a justification/mechanic I'm not aware of? (I'm all for point breaks, I just like to be able to look at something specific to explain it. Ultimate Skill?)

Right now I'm still leaning towards a VPP, mostly for: familiarity, and it allows room for growth at less cost later. Can you share your reasoning for transitioning over to an Elemental Control?

Lot of stuff there. On the Talents under Powers thing, there is absolutely no difference if you put it under Talents and Powers; it only changes where it prints on the sheet. If a character has Powers or Talents that represent specific professional skills vs. raw natural ability I tend to put such things in the powers section since the intent of what it means to the character is more important than what classification the rules assign things to for organizational purposes. Also, Talents are just special purposes Skills or Powers with a label attached to them anyway. The point of Talents is for games where Powers are not normally available. In campaigns where Powers are available, Talents essentially lose their raison d' etre.


As to the bundled Cuk / Ak / KS question. That's a me thing. Really whats being modeled there is a bigger idea and then specific facets of that idea. The rules already present a mechanism to do that via sub-category oriented skills, so I prefer to follow that model. The (mild) cost savings are also more indicative of the actual utility of such an ability. So on Felnor for instance,

5 1) Clan-lore: KS: The Four Clans (INT-based) (AK: Clan lands, CuK: Four Clans) 12-

He's dialed in to the Four Clans and knows a lot about them. He's also up on the culture, and Clan lands. The mechanics want to treat this as three separate things, but I think its clear that this is just aspects of the core idea of "Four Clans Lore". Also, this isn't a question of 5 vs 6 pts, this is a question of 5 vs 9 points. It's serving as a KS, AK, and CuK all at once. I find this to be a valid approach, YMMV.

As to the Jax EC vs VPP question, after looking at the character and the points available, he's far more effective and on-theme with the Ice powers EC. The VPP was diluting the character; sure he had more flexibility, but also a lot less flavor and raw power. Also, VPP's slow the game down and are very ill advised for new players. VPP spellcasters are a great thing and I have several magic systems patterned around VPP's, but this particular character seemed better served as a focused EC based character. He can do everything he needs to do and is a powerhouse at 125 points. Very competitive. With some XP dumped into a Force Field based slot he'll fill in the last major gap and be ready to rock and roll into the 200's.

[Manic Typist]

Lot of stuff there. On the Talents under Powers thing, there is absolutely no difference if you put it under Talents and Powers; it only changes where it prints on the sheet. If a character has Powers or Talents that represent specific professional skills vs. raw natural ability I tend to put such things in the powers section since the intent of what it means to the character is more important than what classification the rules assign things to for organizational purposes. Also, Talents are just special purposes Skills or Powers with a label attached to them anyway. The point of Talents is for games where Powers are not normally available. In campaigns where Powers are available, Talents essentially lose their raison d' etre.

I follow. I was just thinking that if they have a rules question while I'm in the Andes, it might make their lives easier in terms of finding out the answer. A very mild thing if they came here, since I'm sure someone would catch on pretty quick that even though it's listed as a Power it's actually in the Talent section, or what have you.



As to the bundled Cuk / Ak / KS question. That's a me thing. Really whats being modeled there is a bigger idea and then specific facets of that idea. The rules already present a mechanism to do that via sub-category oriented skills, so I prefer to follow that model. The (mild) cost savings are also more indicative of the actual utility of such an ability. So on Felnor for instance,

.... It's serving as a KS, AK, and CuK all at once. I find this to be a valid approach, YMMV.

I like, I just wanted to confirm it was a house rule. I've been thinking that I needed to explore something similar for a while now. At times, Knowledge Skills can get unnecessarily specific (but I do see the need for very specific KS, given the right circumstances). I might end up incorporating this into the final builds.


As to the Jax EC vs VPP question, after looking at the character and the points available, he's far more effective and on-theme with the Ice powers EC. The VPP was diluting the character; sure he had more flexibility, but also a lot less flavor and raw power. Also, VPP's slow the game down and are very ill advised for new players. VPP spellcasters are a great thing and I have several magic systems patterned around VPP's, but this particular character seemed better served as a focused EC based character. He can do everything he needs to do and is a powerhouse at 125 points. Very competitive. With some XP dumped into a Force Field based slot he'll fill in the last major gap and be ready to rock and roll into the 200's.

On the slow down- To be honest, I've never had a slow down with a VPP because of the unique way I've always run it myself. My old (and first) GM used the "divide by 3" by I wanted to move closer to the core of the system, so I started using the VPP. However, for the most part, I'm not a huge fan of "prepared casting" or picking your spells per day... I should start a thread on it, but long story short: if I know it, I want to always know it, you know? (Now if you present me with a system where that's how it works, I'm fine with it. If that's the GM's world, that's the GM's world).

So, back on point- essentially with these VPP there's never any swapping of slots. The only spells you can cast are the ones in your VPP. However, any spell you know, or come to learn, are in your VPP. I would like to think that trade off balances (I generally go ahead and make all the slots Ultra, I think that's the term), but to be honest I've never had a chance to run a game long enough to test it! Three months at a time, when you're teaching players... I just haven't been able to really delve into the specifics of how it can play out. Besides, there's still so much for me to learn! I kind of want to run a "wizard's only" game just to see how different approaches interact with one another.

When you say on theme, do you mean because it's an "Elemental" Control? I try (but don't always succeed) to ignore the names attached to these things. Also, how does doing this as an EC add more "flavor?"

Can you walk me through, just a bit since I'm sure you're busy, how the character is more effective/less diluted with an EC? I've just never used them, but I'm open to changing the build if I can be enlightened to how it fits better in this scenario.

If you could comment on the Characteristics changes you made, I'd also be obliged. Some I kept, and some I didn't. To be honest, I think DEX 17 is too much for our purposes. I suspect the GM is going to run monsters straight from the books or whathaveyou, and dealing with high DEXs is probably something he'd rather not deal with. Also, I think it might be some residual bias left over from my first GM, but to me DEX 17 screams "one of the fastest creatures on the continent."

All in all, very good stuff, and I'm glad to finally be able to look at it again.

[Killer Shrike]

So, back on point- essentially with these VPP there's never any swapping of slots. The only spells you can cast are the ones in your VPP. However, any spell you know, or come to learn, are in your VPP. I would like to think that trade off balances (I generally go ahead and make all the slots Ultra, I think that's the term), but to be honest I've never had a chance to run a game long enough to test it! Three months at a time, when you're teaching players... I just haven't been able to really delve into the specifics of how it can play out. Besides, there's still so much for me to learn! I kind of want to run a "wizard's only" game just to see how different approaches interact with one another.

But that's not how VPP's actually work. There's a difference between abilities a character can _potentially_ manifest in a VPP and the abilities that are _currently_ in a VPP. A VPP that can have anything in it and be changed instantly with no chance of failure is a "cosmic" VPP and costs considerably more than normal and more limited VPPs. The Adeptology Magic System on my site is built around an essentially Cosmic VPP for instance and demonstrates such an approach.

Ultraslots apply to MULTIPOWERS. There is no such idea for VPP's.



When you say on theme, do you mean because it's an "Elemental" Control? I try (but don't always succeed) to ignore the names attached to these things. Also, how does doing this as an EC add more "flavor?"

Ignore the fact that I ended up using an Elemental Control; not what I meant by on theme, or flavor, or anything else. It's just an implementation detail. I could have implemented the same concept with another framework or other mechanism.

When I say on theme, I mean he's supposed to be an Elementalist and the original write up presented two different threads -- one was ice based and the other was generic magic. The character seemed to lean more towards the Ice effects, its a Norse themed campaign, he had several ice-related special abilities. That was the stronger theme of the two, so I focused on it.




Can you walk me through, just a bit since I'm sure you're busy, how the character is more effective/less diluted with an EC? I've just never used them, but I'm open to changing the build if I can be enlightened to how it fits better in this scenario.

Ok, in the HERO System, there is really very little motivation to have ten different ways to do the same thing. Basically the categories you need to focus on are ATTACK, DEFENSE, MOVEMENT, UTILITY. So, really, a character that covers those four bases is solid. Thus, its possible to be very effective with four good powers. Even three out of the four is potent if you cover them particularly well, and two out of four is still playable though not necessarily competitive.

The Jax character was diluted across too many things. By concentrating on just having one really good attack power, and several signature hybrid powers (utility-defense in the form of Invisibility, attack-defense in the form of Entangle, and utility-attack-defense in the form of Change Environment) I was able to bring the character down to points as a very lean mean competitive combatant. This was done at the expense of utility and flexibility.

With such a tight group of END costing effects, two of them constant to boot, and sharing a common SFX, Elemental Control was an easy fit and using it allowed me to dial up the Active Points to a respectable level. At 45+ AP the character has pretty potent effects for a 125 point game.






If you could comment on the Characteristics changes you made, I'd also be obliged. Some I kept, and some I didn't. To be honest, I think DEX 17 is too much for our purposes. I suspect the GM is going to run monsters straight from the books or whathaveyou, and dealing with high DEXs is probably something he'd rather not deal with. Also, I think it might be some residual bias left over from my first GM, but to me DEX 17 screams "one of the fastest creatures on the continent."


All depends on the campaign. As an aside, SPD is more an indicator of, well, speed. DEX is more agility and gracefulness and accuracy. But at any rate in most campaigns DEX 17 isn't all that extraordinary. Keeping stat inflation low is a good thing, but I can tell you from vast personal experience in this area that none of these characters is particularly uber compared to past 125 pointers I've seen in action. The versions I posted up are all competitive in that range, but only the elementalist was pushing the edge of above par for the points and his lack of solid defenses cancels that out.

I'm not sure what to tell you other than do what seems right for your purposes. There's not really a right or wrong around that.

[Manic Typist]

But that's not how VPP's actually work.

In short, I disagree, but that's not hugely relevant at this time. I should probably get around to starting up that magical thoughts discussion thread that's been bungling around in my head for a while know to both explain and try to clarify my notions and such. The Ultra was a mispeak on my part. I meant Cosmic.


When I say on theme, I mean he's supposed to be an Elementalist and the original write up presented two different threads -- one was ice based and the other was generic magic. The character seemed to lean more towards the Ice effects, its a Norse themed campaign, he had several ice-related special abilities. That was the stronger theme of the two, so I focused on it.

Hm, I'm curious where this came from. In my original build, all of his Powers are ice or cold themed. Even the magic skill roll is named "The cold winds blow." I don't see the differing threads.



Ok, in the HERO System, there is really very little motivation to have ten different ways to do the same thing. Basically the categories you need to focus on are ATTACK, DEFENSE, MOVEMENT, UTILITY. So, really, a character that covers those four bases is solid. Thus, its possible to be very effective with four good powers. Even three out of the four is potent if you cover them particularly well, and two out of four is still playable though not necessarily competitive.

Mhm, I follow, though it's nice to be reminded of this. I really need to think more along these lines perhaps, at the outset at least.


The Jax character was diluted across too many things. By concentrating on just having one really good attack power, and several signature hybrid powers (utility-defense in the form of Invisibility, attack-defense in the form of Entangle, and utility-attack-defense in the form of Change Environment) I was able to bring the character down to points as a very lean mean competitive combatant. This was done at the expense of utility and flexibility.

With such a tight group of END costing effects, two of them constant to boot, and sharing a common SFX, Elemental Control was an easy fit and using it allowed me to dial up the Active Points to a respectable level. At 45+ AP the character has pretty potent effects for a 125 point game.

And this is where things get more complicated, at least on my end. Even if I go with the Elemental Control (which I very well might), I'll most likely rip the invisibility spell back out as a separate item (since the player specifically asked to have such a magic item, which you couldn't have known), I'll need to clear with the GM the removal of the RSR limitation or add that in there... and break the bad news to the player that I won't be designing those additional spells I intended to squeeze into the VPP. I'm sure he'll be crushed, but I suspect that being in Italy will somehow offset his woes...



All depends on the campaign. As an aside, SPD is more an indicator of, well, speed. DEX is more agility and gracefulness and accuracy.

True, but when the vast majority of denizens/people are SPD 3 and the occasional 4, DEX becomes the "new" SPD (as in high numbers are especially effective)


But at any rate in most campaigns DEX 17 isn't all that extraordinary. Keeping stat inflation low is a good thing, but I can tell you from vast personal experience in this area that none of these characters is particularly uber compared to past 125 pointers I've seen in action. The versions I posted up are all competitive in that range, but only the elementalist was pushing the edge of above par for the points and his lack of solid defenses cancels that out.

From my (much more limited) experience, DEX 17 is an eyebrow quirker. But that's a thought on the Defense. I'll confess I'm still developing my eye for gauging one character's sheet against another (I'm much more used to winning, or losing, through tactics rather than stats. I think I'll definitely recommend to the GM to nix the armor. Who doesn't like a squishy caster, after all?


I'm not sure what to tell you other than do what seems right for your purposes. There's not really a right or wrong around that.

It's always good to hear that, though. I try to make sure in all of my communications to people about roleplaying that the number one point is to have fun. It doesn't hurt to hear such things again and again.

You've been hugely helpful, and I suspect many (and perhaps most) of the changes you've suggested on Jax will be incorporated. Now I just need to talk to the GM and the player, and then examine the other changes in greater detail.

[Killer Shrike]

On the themes for Jax....

Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 30 base + 5 control cost, (45 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)


The cold winds blow: Power: Magic (INT-based) 16-

This is open ended. Nothing in this definition says "ice magic only", from a mechanical perspective. If that is your actual intent, something more firm than a label on a generic skill is probably called for ;)

And if it were your intent, you would be better off not buying two RKA's and an Entangle outside of the VPP -- use the points from them to make the VPP bigger and manifest the effects via the VPP. See what I mean by rival themes?

When building characters, try to look for synergies -- where two or more abilities support each other or open up options. You get a holistic effect, characters that are more powerful than their raw points suggest because they are layering or leveraging their effects intelligently. You don't want to do the opposite, and create a situation where two or more abilities are actually competing with each other for points and pulling the character apart from within. Just some free advice from an old salt; YMMV ;)


As to the DEX, as I said campaigns differ, but my eyebrows remain unquirked by 17 DEX. It's all relative anyway, so if you say 17 is high for you I believe you and defer to your closer connection to the campaign in question.


As to finding no RSR odd for a Magic System, I don't know what to tell you other than its just one of many ways to impose a Control mechanism on a Magic System and is hardly required or even desirable for all systems. Far from it in fact. If the GM mandates it, very well, but there is such a thing as too much nerfing; all the aspects of a MS should be considered when imposing Controls, rather than just blithely slapping on RSR, Incant, Gestures, etc, and calling it a day.

[Manic Typist]

This is open ended. Nothing in this definition says "ice magic only", from a mechanical perspective. If that is your actual intent, something more firm than a label on a generic skill is probably called for ;)

Yeah, you're right. That's fair.


And if it were your intent, you would be better off not buying two RKA's and an Entangle outside of the VPP -- use the points from them to make the VPP bigger and manifest the effects via the VPP. See what I mean by rival themes?

I see what you mean, but I'm confused as to where it comes from. I don't see where it comes from... I don't recall putting any powers (besides that cloak) outside the VPP... Are you referring to that "transition," over 200 points version of Jax I posted? He was literally in the middle of sweeping changes. I only posted him because HD was giving me an error message that was technically wrong (there was an error, but it was listing a different error) and I needed someone to help me isolate it.


When building characters, try to look for synergies -- where two or more abilities support each other or open up options. You get a holistic effect, characters that are more powerful than their raw points suggest because they are layering or leveraging their effects intelligently. You don't want to do the opposite, and create a situation where two or more abilities are actually competing with each other for points and pulling the character apart from within. Just some free advice from an old salt; YMMV ;)

Hey, that sounds like great advice. I'm just trying to develop that skill. If you have any further tips on how to better master that philosophy, or any links to explanations of it on your site, I'd be more than happy to read them.



As to the DEX, as I said campaigns differ, but my eyebrows remain unquirked by 17 DEX. It's all relative anyway, so if you say 17 is high for you I believe you and defer to your closer connection to the campaign in question.

What I really need is to get to play more, with a variety of GMs, so I can expand my horizons, so to say. Then I'd probably get over my DEX paranoia.


As to finding no RSR odd for a Magic System, I don't know what to tell you other than its just one of many ways to impose a Control mechanism on a Magic System and is hardly required or even desirable for all systems. Far from it in fact. If the GM mandates it, very well, but there is such a thing as too much nerfing; all the aspects of a MS should be considered when imposing Controls, rather than just blithely slapping on RSR, Incant, Gestures, etc, and calling it a day.

Oh, there's nothing odd about it. If I end up going with the Elemental Control, I would definitely opt to go without the RSR. It's a bit smaller than the VPP might be in terms of variety of spells, and thus I think the trade off should be more reliability in casting. GM's call, that's all.

[Killer Shrike]

Yes, the version of the character I had presented several effects outside the VPP. Sounds like that was the source of confusion.

I actually don't have a character design philosophy document up. Never even occured to me to write one to be honest, probably because for me character design is very instinctive / internalized. I do it mostly by feel, really, and every character is different.

[Casper]

[QUOTE=Manic Typist;1694127]From my (much more limited) experience, DEX 17 is an eyebrow quirker. But that's a thought on the Defense. I'll confess I'm still developing my eye for gauging one character's sheet against another (I'm much more used to winning, or losing, through tactics rather than stats. I think I'll definitely recommend to the GM to nix the armor. Who doesn't like a squishy caster, after all?


Wouldn't armor interfear with casting anyway? I only know Jax from what you guys have said, so an armored caster just seems unessiary if he does his job right. (with 2 other Melee charcters does he really need it) seems like the quick draw question earlier on the forem.

[Manic Typist]

Wouldn't armor interfear with casting anyway? I only know Jax from what you guys have said, so an armored caster just seems unessiary if he does his job right. (with 2 other Melee charcters does he really need it) seems like the quick draw question earlier on the forem.

No reason for it to interfere unless the GM says so.

And I'm talking about nixing the Armor spell, not whether or not he wears armor. That I'm not going to touch.

[Ragnarok]

Only the heavier or stiffer types of armor, such as plate, would meaningfully interfere with gestures. As Jax has leather armor, it would not hinder him in his casting for most encounters, especially if the armor is left open at the joints.

Also, an unarmored caster is begging to be slaughtered, unless he really has some good tricks up his sleeve. Trust me, Jax will need that armor, especially when your enemies realize that the guy throwing ice everywhere is doing some serious damage.

I have a bit of a problem with the misconception that casters don't need armor, and that as long as you have a "tank" in your group no harm will come to the lighter types. This is a misconception based from computer games like WoW, I think. Sure, the "tanks" are able to slug it out with most baddies, but they have their strength and armor to rely on. The other folks have to survive by using their wits, their skills, and their mobility. There is no easy aggro mechanism, and mages certainly have to do more than spam fireball.

Let me put it this way...would YOU go in to battle wearing nothing but your PJs? I didn't think so...

[Manic Typist]

Agreed.

Which can make it hard for a balance to be struck if you allow magic users to have spells enhancing armor. If they can put on armor and then put up a forcefield... I've seen it get pretty nasty. I'm still searching for a solution that's better than "anything other than light armor interferes with magic" or "you just can't."

[Killer Shrike]

I cover the idea of stacking defenses here (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.aspx#Stacking%20Defenses)

Also, i'll reinforce Manic's post --> you need to beware the Tank Mage problem.

[Ragnarok]

Oh believe you me, I am fully aware of the Mage-Tank. Back in the days of D&D, I once played a half-celestial cleric wearing magical mithril full plate and shield, with several stacking spells and rings. We were fighting a demon once, and I had donned all my armor and cast everything before the battle.

This is roughly how the situation went:

GM: The Demon lunges at you. What's your AC?
Me: 30.
GM: *Blink* *Blink* Oh. Well. The demon stumbles awkwardly past you, does a double-take at you, and somewhat confusedly moves on to your companions.

All the time, I was blasting him with holy fire.




I agree that, if Jax wears physical armor, he should not have magical armor in addition. I will continue brainstorming ways to limit the armor combo. But trust me, I know what I'm doing :)

[Markdoc]

My answer is pretty simple, yet effective. "Real" protection (like armour) does not stack with protection from magic or talents. That's part of the "real armour" limitation. If the player queries this (and it happens from time to time) I simply point out that (for example) The player bought magical protection "as good as plate armour". If he's already wearing plate armour, the magic defence adds nothing. If he wants "defence as good as plate armour stacked on top of more plate armour" ... then he should buy that. The same applies to combat luck. That represents the ability to weave, or dodge to avoid the worst effects of a blow. Armour protects against an attack that you didn't weave or dodge effectively enough to avoid. Thus, they don't stack.

Basically, the player gets the better of his magical/talent/equipment-based defences, but he can't stack them. A mage could, if he wanted, stack a magical armour spell and a magical force-field spell, making him nigh invulnerable (for a time) but that's fair: he's paid points for that.

cheers, Mark

[Terenac]

Wouldn't armor interfear with casting anyway? I only know Jax from what you guys have said, so an armored caster just seems unessiary if he does his job right. (with 2 other Melee charcters does he really need it) seems like the quick draw question earlier on the forem.

I'm gonna have to throw in with the others on this one. I played the caster in our last game. From the impression I've gotten from ragnarok, magic will be something rare enough in this campaign that having it will practically be drawing a target on Jax in combat and though we might be able to block for him to a certain degree he's gonna need at least some protection.

As for the stacking defences, rather than saying that armor interferes with magic it could be that wearing armor gets in the way of that particular spell. I don't know how exactly you plan to model it in game but on possibility could be that the field forms close to the body of the user. Hence if they are wearing armor it is in the way and prevents the field from forming. I could be wrong but I don't believe there is anything that goes against putting a disadvantage on an individual spell within the pool. Again it all depend on how exactly it ends up working.

[Casper]

Wow, thanks i'll probably have more obvious questions later...after all its the easiest way to learn this new system.