multiple instances of a power, AKA "quantity"

[secretID]

In the Hero Designer section, I found the explanation of what "quantity" means in HD, with a reference to the rules. The reference didn't include a page number - anyone know where it is?

My specific question at the moment:
Can a character buy two instances of a MP, paying only the extra 5 points, to get around the problem of being stuck in a slot? E.g., the character wants to be able to create a force wall, then on his next phase fire an EB w/o losing the force wall.

If the answer is no (as I bet it is), I'm interested in any suggestions. The force wall can be bought independent, but that makes it prohibitively expensive.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Chris Goodwin]

In the Hero Designer section, I found the explanation of what "quantity" means in HD, with a reference to the rules. The reference didn't include a page number - anyone know where it is?

My specific question at the moment:
Can a character buy two instances of a MP, paying only the extra 5 points, to get around the problem of being stuck in a slot? E.g., the character wants to be able to create a force wall, then on his next phase fire an EB w/o losing the force wall.

If it's a Focus, he could pay 5 points for another instance of the Focus. Doing so just to get around the MP slot requirements is total cheese.

If you want to be able to fire off an Energy Blast without dropping the Force Wall, your options are:


Buy a big enough Multipower to run them both
Buy them in an EC instead of a Multipower
Don't buy them in the same Multipower

[Basil]

If you want to be able to fire off an Energy Blast without dropping the Force Wall, your options are:


Buy a big enough Multipower to run them both
Buy them in an EC instead of a Multipower
Don't buy them in the same Multipower


Or, buy either or both outside of a Multipower.
Which is something of a variant on Chris's third suggestion

[secretID]

If it's a Focus, he could pay 5 points for another instance of the Focus. Doing so just to get around the MP slot requirements is total cheese.

So...the point of the 5 point option is to create a backup focus? I.e., a character can have as many, e.g., MP billy clubs as he wants, via "quantity," but he can't use more than one at a time (swing using one while striking using the other) unless he has paid for the power twice?

That makes sense; it would also mean, I think, that "quantity" has no meaning for powers without foci?

Is all that right?

[Acme]

I personally have never liked the 5pt doubling rule for equipment.

IMHO, either quantity is a special effect (HKA: sword can be the Ancestral Blade, or it can be a rack of S-Mart replicas) or it has combat effect, which costs points. (ie. the advantages Autofire, Area Effect, etc.)

Just my $0.02CDN.

[Chris Goodwin]

So...the point of the 5 point option is to create a backup focus? I.e., a character can have as many, e.g., MP billy clubs as he wants, via "quantity," but he can't use more than one at a time (swing using one while striking using the other) unless he has paid for the power twice?

That makes sense; it would also mean, I think, that "quantity" has no meaning for powers without foci?

Is all that right?

Correct, except that I think you actually can use more than one at a time. The rule originally came from 4th edition vehicle rules, where your vehicle would pay 5 points to have two of one Focus. I think it was for things like twin machine guns.

[Hyper-Man]

It is one of the more easily abused rules in the system.
It is also quite useful for recreating certain special effects.

see this old request:
Re: What is the best way to build this?
I have a character who is an old west style gun slinger.

Right now he uses a normal six-shooter as his weapon.

I want to give him multiple kinds of bullets: normal, sliver, armor piercing, explosive, etc...

I was planning on simply giving him a multipower where each slot is a different kind of bullet:

Colt Peacemaker: Multipower, OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), 60 point reserve (30 real points)
1u 1) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, 4 6-charge clips (-1/4) (25 active points)
1u 2) Silver Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, 4 6-charge clips (-1/4) (25 active points)
2u 3) Armor Piercing Bullet: RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) 2 6-charge clips (-1/2) (45 active points)

And so on...

The problems I have run into are thus:

1) I want to be able to change 1 bullet at a time without the active cost of the powers going over 60 points.

2) I want to be able to use the blaze away or rapid fire combat actions. If I buy the gun as a multipower thought, I can only use 1 kind of bullet in a single phase. What I want though is to be able to blaze away or rapid fire with multiple types of bullets (even if the type of bullet is meaningless to the encounter).
EX: I am running low on ammo. I have 2 normal bullets left and 2 silver bullets. I want to use rapid fire to hit 3 agents.


3) Even if I buy the gun with 1,000 charges that are not divided into clips, I want to only be able to fire 6 shots in a single phase, or 6 shots before needing to reload the gun.

Thanks for the help.

Be seeing you.


Using the doubling rule I created the following possible solution:
Here's the latest cleaned up version:

27 6 Guns in 1 (Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo): Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0), Limited Power Number of different ammo types in clips (speed loaders) are normally set before combat. Takes 1/2 phase to change ammo distribution of clips using Fast Draw. (+0) (37 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Limited Power x6 number of items is only to allow use of Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1 & 2). (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected (even Explosive and Sparkler AOE slots which can't take Beam Limitation) (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) [Notes: (x6 number of items) <--- {This accounts for 15 of the 27 Real Points above} Number of rounds of each slot type for each clip must be defined at beginning of adventure.] - END=
1u 1) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 2) Variable SFX Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Cold Iron, Silver, Holy, etc...; +1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 3) Hollow Point Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 4) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 5) Penetrating Bullets: RKA 1d6, +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 6) Rubber Bullets: EB 7d6+1 (37 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) - END=0
1u 7) Explosive Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, Explosion (+1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 8) Sparkler Bullets: Sight and Hearing Groups Flash 4d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (37 Active Points) - END=0
1u 9) Expanding Foam Bullets: Entangle 2d6, 3 DEF (Larger Wall (+1"), Stops A Given Sense Group Sight Group) (37 Active Points) - END=0
- END=

5 6 Guns in 1 (Instead of 6 guns): Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) for up to 15 Active Points of (x6 number of items, 15 active points) on 6 Guns in 1 (Colt Peacemaker & Various Ammo), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1) - END=0
- END=

3 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1): Extra Limbs (6), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (Armor Piercing Bullets; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Limited Power Only to allow use x6 number of items and Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1 & 2). (-1/2) - END=0

3 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 2): Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Offhand Penalty with Colt Peacemaker Multiple Item (6) Multipowers with All Attacks (9 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (6 Guns in 1 (Instead of 6 guns); -1/2), Limited Power Only to allow use x6 number of items and Rapid Fire with different ammo slots in combination with 6 Guns in 1 (It's like he's using 6 different guns at one time! part 1 & 2). (-1/2) [Notes: Allows any remaining multipower 'slot' or bullet from an existing clip to be used first in any phase at no penalty. Use of Rapid Fire still imposes standard penalties for multiple shots fired. ] - END=

[secretID]

Correct, except that I think you actually can use more than one at a time.
In that case, wouldn't the answer to my initial question be "yes?" Instead of swinging with one billy club while striking with the other, the character would maintain a force wall with one instance of the power while doing an EB with the other. In fact, it would imply that he could, say, simultaneously flash and EB a target, using the two instances of the power simultaneously.

Note: I still haven' t found this whole thing in the rules - I was just going off of a post in the Hero Designer area.

[Hyper-Man]

...
Note: I still haven' t found this whole thing in the rules
....

It's somewhat hidden. :D

from 5er page 456,

THE 5-POINT DOUBLING RULE
At the GM’s option, characters in any type of campaign may double the number of a particular piece of equipment, weapon, or object they have for +5 points. Thus, if a sword costs 20 Character Points, for 25 points the character could have two such swords. This is a quick and easy way to simulate characters who carry lots of “back-up” weapons or who want to own a fleet of vehicles. If the equipment is unusual (such as an Unbreakable Focus, an enchanted item, or the like), the character should get the GM’s permission to buy it using this rule. The 5-point doubling purchase is a separate cost, not a part of the equipment being purchased. Therefore it doesn’t affect the purchased equipment’s Active Points or the like. If a character applies the 5-point doubling rule to a gadget built with Limitations, those Limitations do not apply to the +5 points — the +5 points aren’t subject to Power Modifiers. The +5 points also cannot be put in Power Frameworks.

[secretID]

I think that has to be interpreted as to allow only for backup foci, etc., and not to allow things that can be used simultaneously (i.e. the billy club example). Otherwise, there would be a huge advantage to using the focus limitation.

[Hyper-Man]

I think that has to be interpreted as to allow only for backup foci, etc., and not to allow things that can be used simultaneously (i.e. the billy club example). Otherwise, there would be a huge advantage to using the focus limitation.

If the focus is built using the 'real world' limitation then it is typically a wash.

[Chris Goodwin]

In that case, wouldn't the answer to my initial question be "yes?" Instead of swinging with one billy club while striking with the other, the character would maintain a force wall with one instance of the power while doing an EB with the other. In fact, it would imply that he could, say, simultaneously flash and EB a target, using the two instances of the power simultaneously.

Per the rules, yes.

Per the "GM's ability to detect rules rape," the answer would most likely be, no.

[Hugh Neilson]

Per the rules, yes.

Per the "GM's ability to detect rules rape," the answer would most likely be, no.

What's the perception bonus when, instead of doubling that MP once, I double it 10 times (1,024 foci -MP Ring) and buy Extra limbs - 128 arms so I can wear one on each finger?

[My thumbs have my Force Field Rings, with only 8 doublings. +2 PD, +2 ED, +1 Sight Flash Def, +1 Hearing Flash Def, +1 PowDef, +1 Mental Def Force Field, Hardened twice, 0 END, Persistent, for a total of +128 PD/Ed and +64 power defense]

Let's see...5 for Extra Limbs
Thumb Rings cost 18/1.25 = 14, plus 40 for the doublings = 54
Finger rings cost 60 pool/1.25 = 48, plus 5/ slot; say 5 slots = 73

That's 132 points. Only 218 left to spend - better find a way to shave some points.

[secretID]

Now that I know what to look for, I found this in the FAQs:

"If a character uses the “+5 points doubles the number of a piece of equipment” rule to buy multiple “copies” of a particular weapon or gadget, may he:
1. Use the two weapons as part of a Multiple-Power Attack?
2. Use the two weapons for Two-Weapon Fighting?
3. Use two defensive gadgets simultaneously (for example, have two gadgets built with Force Field and turn them both on at once so that they both provide him with their total defense)?
4. Keep one of the weapons/gadgets if someone uses a Disarm or Grab Weapon maneuver to take one of them away from him?

I’ll answer your specific questions below, but there’s a common issue running through each of them: “Are weapons/gadgets bought with the 5-point-doubling rule considered “separate” from the original weapon/gadget, or are they all one weapon/gadget for game rules purposes?”. The answer is that they’re separate. They’re distinct from each other, each with its own identity and uses even if they’re defined identically in HERO System rules terms.
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
As always, in the interest of game balance, or because of common sense or dramatic sense, the GM may forbid any uses of double-bought weapons/gadgets which he deems harmful or stupid."

So, there you go. As a GM, I would/will probably say:
1. no
2. probably - it depends
3. no
4. yes

[prestidigitator]

Note that even the above FAQ does not involve reallocating a Power Framework. The way I'd look at it is that--from a system mechanics/pseudo-science point of view--a Focus is not the power itself; it is only REQUIRED to USE the power. If you want a Multipower that you can use two ways simultaneously, buy the reserve big enough for two to be active. Now I guess per the above FAQ maybe you could use the powers from that Framework together for a little more than usual if you buy two Foci for it, but that's going to have to be a GM judgement call.

[SteveZilla]

If it's a Focus, he could pay 5 points for another instance of the Focus. Doing so just to get around the MP slot requirements is total cheese.

But it's so tasty! :D ;)

If you want to be able to fire off an Energy Blast without dropping the Force Wall, your options are:


Buy a big enough Multipower to run them both
Buy them in an EC instead of a Multipower
Don't buy them in the same Multipower


Another option would be to buy the Force Wall with Uncontrolled or Continuing Charges.

A couple of real esoteric methods would be to use a Dissimmilar Duplicate, or to Summon the Force Wall (creature).

[secretID]

Now I guess per the above FAQ maybe you could use the powers from that Framework together for a little more than usual if you buy two Foci for it, but that's going to have to be a GM judgement call.
That’s my problem with it . For only 5 points, a character with a focus-based MP can use two slots simultaneously. More generally, as the force field example in the FAQ shows, a character can pay 5 points to double any focus-based power. That’s just silly. Yeah, it’s “subject to GM approval,” but so is everything else.

For only 5 points, I think all you should get is a backup focus, and maybe the two-weapon fighting, since that mostly seems like a special effect to me.

[prestidigitator]

That’s my problem with it . For only 5 points, a character with a focus-based MP can use two slots simultaneously. More generally, as the force field example in the FAQ shows, a character can pay 5 points to double any focus-based power. That’s just silly. Yeah, it’s “subject to GM approval,” but so is everything else.

For only 5 points, I think all you should get is a backup focus, and maybe the two-weapon fighting, since that mostly seems like a special effect to me.

That's not what I am saying. I don't think you CAN use two slots simultaneously unless you NORMALLY could (enough points in the reserve). If you only have enough points to have one slot active at a time, the POWER is switched to that slot. Multiple Foci might allow you to use THAT ONE SLOT in multiple ways simultaneously that otherwise you might scratch your head at (you can't aim a physical gun in two directions at the same time from a SFX perspective, so keeping a certain Continuous attack held on one target while firing it at another might raise eyebrows) just like you can have a single power "activated" multiple times simultaneously for various different uses (I don't believe that allows you to pop your FF up 5 times though and have them all layer on top of each other though; I hope not).

So if you really want two guns, each using a different slot at a point in time, I think you would need a big enough reserve to have both slots active.

[secretID]

That's not what I am saying. I don't think you CAN use two slots simultaneously unless you NORMALLY could (enough points in the reserve). If you only have enough points to have one slot active at a time, the POWER is switched to that slot. Multiple Foci might allow you to use THAT ONE SLOT in multiple ways simultaneously that otherwise you might scratch your head at (you can't aim a physical gun in two directions at the same time from a SFX perspective, so keeping a certain Continuous attack held on one target while firing it at another might raise eyebrows) just like you can have a single power "activated" multiple times simultaneously for various different uses (I don't believe that allows you to pop your FF up 5 times though and have them all layer on top of each other though; I hope not).

So if you really want two guns, each using a different slot at a point in time, I think you would need a big enough reserve to have both slots active.
I understand you now, and that makes some sense. However, I think Steve's repeated emphasis on "separate" indicates otherwise - that the multiple foci could be used for different slots. And he explicitly said that each focus could produce a separate force field, all of which could stack together.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters to me - I won't allow it as a GM, and I won't do it as a player. I just think Steve made a bad call.