Help with the Regeneration Power?

[Leafar the Lost]

I'm new to the 5th edition game, but I played it many years ago. I remember the Regeneration Power being 10 points for 1 BODY/Turn. In 5th edition, its a part of Aid and I really don't get it. Has someone come up with something simplier?

[ghost-angel]

Regeneration is part of Healing, not Aid.

It's a series of (some would say) convoluted Advantages and Limitations.

But in the end it works the exact same as 1 Body/Turn, though the cost varies depending on if you put Can Heal Limbs and/or Resurrection on it.

I'm sure in a moment a whole crowd of people will offer up some advice on a different build. In the end you could just go with 10pts/1 Body and be done with it.

[Manic Typist]

Regeneration is part of Healing, not Aid.



Thank you! That's what I'm talking about....


(Tried to say the same thing myself earlier, but I got the impression that no one really noticed...)

[CTaylor]

I'd advise just house ruling the old Regen rules back in and ignoring the 5th edition rules. Steve has stated he won't return to the old regen and will not consider any discussion on the topic, so we're stuck with some odd construct in the rules.

[Vulcan]

I don't find the 5E rule all that cumbersome, but that's me.

What you're doing is buying 1d6 Healing (10 points).

Give it standard effect (3 points per die, which rounds down to one BODY per application),

Add 0 END and Persistent on it (total of +1 in advantages, 20 AP). This way it works automatically, presumably you 'turn it on' and never turn it off again.

Add Self Only (-1/2) and Extra Time (1 Turn, -1)

Final cost: 8 points.

The trouble comes up when a GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration (which is in the 5E book, I don't know about 5ER). Some do, some don't. If yours does, you probably want to raise the maximum amount you can heal to four times your BODY score so you can regenerate up from near death. This gets pricy though. (example: for 15 BODY you want to be able to 'heal' 60 points: +54 AP, 27 points before modifiers. Add 54 active, 22 real)

Being able to regerate limbs isn't too expensive. Add 10 AP, 4 real.

Coming back from the dead... A bit more expensive. Add 40 AP, 16 real. And if your GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration, it might not be worth it. It's possible that you could be so overkilled that you won't be able to come back...

(Incidentally, I just discovered the example 'Lycanthropic Regeneration' is incorrect in the 5E book, they didn't give it 'Extra Time')

[ghost-angel]

I don't find the 5E rule all that cumbersome, but that's me.

What you're doing is buying 1d6 Healing (10 points).

Give it standard effect (3 points per die, which rounds down to one BODY per application),

Add 0 END and Persistent on it (total of +1 in advantages, 20 AP). This way it works automatically, presumably you 'turn it on' and never turn it off again.

Add Self Only (-1/2) and Extra Time (1 Turn, -1)

Final cost: 8 points.

The trouble comes up when a GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration (which is in the 5E book, I don't know about 5ER). Some do, some don't. If yours does, you probably want to raise the maximum amount you can heal to four times your BODY score so you can regenerate up from near death. This gets pricy though. (example: for 15 BODY you want to be able to 'heal' 60 points: +54 AP, 27 points before modifiers. Add 54 active, 22 real)

Being able to regerate limbs isn't too expensive. Add 10 AP, 4 real.

Coming back from the dead... A bit more expensive. Add 40 AP, 16 real. And if your GM enforces the 'max healing' limits on regeneration, it might not be worth it. It's possible that you could be so overkilled that you won't be able to come back...

(Incidentally, I just discovered the example 'Lycanthropic Regeneration' is incorrect in the 5E book, they didn't give it 'Extra Time')

5ER actually made a few changes.
The Extra Time Limitation is -1 1/4 (making it 7pts/1 Body for standard Regen)
And specifically mentions that the Max Healing does not apply.

And for the record I don't find the Regen Build that cumbersome either. Especially in play, because like almost all Power Builds, the In Game Workings are simple and easy no matter how complex the Power Generation Build is. At least, that's how I see it.

[Lord Liaden]

5ER actually made a few changes.
The Extra Time Limitation is -1 1/4 (making it 7pts/1 Body for standard Regen)
And specifically mentions that the Max Healing does not apply.

That bit about Max Healing is the part of the new Regeneration construct that's always baffled me. Why go to all the trouble of making an involved construct according to the rules to get a particular effect, if you're going to ignore one of the rules anyway? I could accept building it out of Healing if the build actually added up to the desired result. If an additional Advantage were included in the standard Regeneration formula to account for that discrepancy... well, I would still prefer the straightforwardness of 4E Regen, but I could at least buy the logic of making it like that.

OTOH in 5E we have Succor as a subset of Aid, a base Power for a similar effect but with a different cost and working differently. It certainly wouldn't be a stretch to make Regeneration the same sort of subset of Healing.

[Sean Waters]

The rules for regeneration used to confuse a lot of people, and make a lot of other people angry because of their complexity and apparent disregard of the rules.

Now, however, the rules have been clarified, so, instead of a confusing and contradictory power that cost (confusingly) 10 points for 1 point of regeneration, we now have a power that you handily scratch build every time you need it using variations on the rest of the rules that don't apply to anything else and limitations that, whilst they give you a cost break, actually act as advantages. At last count there were over 8000 threads on this board alone praising how straightforward and comprehensible the new version of regeneration is, with not one dissenting voice.

I hope that helps.

Oh, and welcome back :D

[Kdansky]

You could also put the "reduced time of re-use" advantage on it, which would actually make sense! After all, that stupid thing exists for only that reason and is explicitly mentioned on the same page (or so)! That makes Regen a couple points more pricey, but it's still the same ballpark, around 10 per 1 point. That is the more sensible approach...

[Hugh Neilson]

You could also put the "reduced time of re-use" advantage on it, which would actually make sense! After all, that stupid thing exists for only that reason and is explicitly mentioned on the same page (or so)! That makes Regen a couple points more pricey, but it's still the same ballpark, around 10 per 1 point. That is the more sensible approach...

Actually, the sensible approach would have been to write decreased reuse time to have the same effect as the implicit "no cap" buried in Regen. 1 BOD is 2 points on the die, not 3, so Regen really is 2/3 of a die. That allows a +1 "reuse time one turn" advantage to be extrapolated. Had that been incorporated into the writeup of decreased re-use time when that advantage was later developed in Fantasy Hero (perhaps by setting the default re-use time at 1 hour instead of 1 day, or perhaps by staging the advantage differently), the two would have dovetailed perfectly and Regen could have been rewritten in 5er accordingly without a major change to the ability from 5e.

6e has the opportunity to better match the two, so hopefully it gets fixed.

[Hyper-Man]

I think the problem is that "Regeneration" as it is described in 5er is an OPTIONAL rule that has somehow had its status upgraded to OFFICIAL.

from:
Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One
page 187

Regeneration
Regeneration is an optional form of Healing BODY with the Standard Effect Rule which Heals 1 point of BODY damage per die.

The use of the optional Regeneration rule is very similar to adding Advantages and Limitations to Talents which are just pre-packaged Powers that have Advantages and/or Limitations already built in. It causes problems because of 'double-dipping'.

Here are some cost comparison examples to mull over for those that haven't read the older threads on this subject.

The first 2 examples function exactly the same.
All 3 "Heal" 2 Body each time the power is activated.
The "Per Wound" variant is over twice the cost but is arguably more than twice as useful too.

12 Book Recommended Regeneration Method: Healing 2 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

14 It's like Regeneration but Different!: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

27 It's like Regeneration but Different! (Per Wound!): Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Whenever character takes BODY damage.; +3/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (55 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)
[Notes: If the character suffers 3 Body damage from 1 attack and then 2 body from another on Phase 3 then 1 Body damage on Phase 6 they will not heal the remaining 1 Body from phase 3 until Phase 3 on the following Turn. The triggered healing will only affect the damage taken by each specific attack.] - END=0

[Chris Goodwin]

Regeneration is built using what I lately have been calling "blah blah blah", which is a long string of Modifiers that make your eyes glaze over when you read it.

[TheInexplicable]

It is a bit of an eyesore if you write out how the new Regeneration works. I just wrote it out in the sidebar once and note it as Regeneration on the character sheet and make sure I list the correct AP and RC.

The only problem I have with the new method is that our games almost always include AP caps and that means that you get half as much Regeneration now as you used to under 4th Ed. That kind of sucks. In a typical game of 60AP caps you only get 3 Body per turn instead of the old 6.

[Hyper-Man]

...
Especially in play, because like almost all Power Builds, the In Game Workings are simple and easy no matter how complex the Power Generation Build is. At least, that's how I see it.

I agree with this part 100%.

[Lord Liaden]

The rules for regeneration used to confuse a lot of people, and make a lot of other people angry because of their complexity and apparent disregard of the rules.

Now, however, the rules have been clarified, so, instead of a confusing and contradictory power that cost (confusingly) 10 points for 1 point of regeneration, we now have a power that you handily scratch build every time you need it using variations on the rest of the rules that don't apply to anything else and limitations that, whilst they give you a cost break, actually act as advantages. At last count there were over 8000 threads on this board alone praising how straightforward and comprehensible the new version of regeneration is, with not one dissenting voice.

I hope that helps.

Oh, and welcome back :D

My sarcasm-meter is receiving Post-Traumatic Stress therapy. :rolleyes:

[archermoo]

Regeneration is one of those optional rules that people's reactions to it have always baffled me. Somehow the optional rules about how the Regeneration variant of the Healing Power works aren't as good or something as the other rules in the book. Because for some reason quite a few people prefer to think of the rules specific for Regeneration as being violations of the rules, rather than rules themselves. I've never been able to get a reason for this from anyone that wasn't basically "That isn't how Healing works". Of course if it worked just like Healing it wouldn't require it's own optional rules. It would just be a Power example.

I guess maybe the fact that it has several Advantages and Limitations that are required make people view it as just an example build rather than the set of optional rules that it really is.

[CrosshairCollie]

The main thing I hate about Regeneration now (along with Instant Change now) is the fact that I can't do them from memory and have to consult the book every time I want to make a character with either, even when using HD.

Those are the only two things I can think of that I have to do that with.

[Hugh Neilson]

Here are some cost comparison examples to mull over for those that haven't read the older threads on this subject.

The first 2 examples function exactly the same.
All 3 "Heal" 2 Body each time the power is activated.
The "Per Wound" variant is over twice the cost but is arguably more than twice as useful too.

12 Book Recommended Regeneration Method: Healing 2 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

I don't think the official build has Always On, so it would come to 15 points. That 12 threw me.

14 It's like Regeneration but Different!: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) - END=0

I'm unclear how you cost +1 to the dice. I'd say this is 4/3 d6 Healing, Standard Effect. That would be 47 AP (20 x 4/3 x 3.5) and the same 14 RP. It goes to 17 when I pull "always on".

27 It's like Regeneration but Different! (Per Wound!): Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Whenever character takes BODY damage.; +3/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (55 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

Same issue with the "+1" and Always On. I get 57 AP, 28 RP (38 if I remove Always On). This is generally a much weaker power as the Trigger is sub-optimal, but it would heal small wounds inflicted rapidly on a much more effective basis.

[Notes: If the character suffers 3 Body damage from 1 attack and then 2 body from another on Phase 3 then 1 Body damage on Phase 6 they will not heal the remaining 1 Body from phase 3 until Phase 3 on the following Turn. The triggered healing will only affect the damage taken by each specific attack.] - END=0

I think the Trigger goes off when you take BOD, resets itself and stops. Thus, you suffer 3 BOD, heal 2 and remain down 1 BOD (until you poke yourself with a sharp stick for 1 BOD to heal 2, I suppose).

I would like to see 6e:

- provide for each 1 BOD regen to be based on 2/3d6 Heal, Standard Effect
- apply the advantage for decreased re-use time
- present a Regeneration talent similar to Combat Luck (which also had a huge array of modifiers but attracts far less whining)

[CTaylor]

I think the main opposition to Regeneration (and Instant Change) is that they've been pointlessly complicated and made less easy to use for no beneficial reason. Nothing was gained by this change, and they're harder to use. That's not exactly a recipe for acceptance or praise.

[Chris Goodwin]

Regeneration is one of those optional rules that people's reactions to it have always baffled me. Somehow the optional rules about how the Regeneration variant of the Healing Power works aren't as good or something as the other rules in the book. Because for some reason quite a few people prefer to think of the rules specific for Regeneration as being violations of the rules, rather than rules themselves. I've never been able to get a reason for this from anyone that wasn't basically "That isn't how Healing works". Of course if it worked just like Healing it wouldn't require it's own optional rules. It would just be a Power example.

I guess maybe the fact that it has several Advantages and Limitations that are required make people view it as just an example build rather than the set of optional rules that it really is.

It's pure fiat, pulled from the nether regions of a man's head covering. The Healing Power was created with a very specific set of parameters, which (by means of the Regeneration modifiers) are tossed out the window. The combination of "blah blah blah" by which you turn Healing into Regeneration is one pointed statement that says "All of that stuff under Healing? Ignore it; it now works this way."

It's a hand wave. It's not an Advantage to add a bit of functionality to the Power; it's a fundamental change of how the Power works. And, in fact, it's not even an across-the-board change against Healing; it specifically, per several rules question answers by Steve Long, applies only to BODY. On numerous occasions, people have asked Steve, "If I change parameter X on Regeneration, can I have it apply in a different way?" and every time his answer has, essentially, been "No, Regeneration is its own beast. If the GM wants to allow it, sure, but that's not how it's written."

[Hyper-Man]

I don't think the official build has Always On, so it would come to 15 points. That 12 threw me.

...

I'm unclear how you cost +1 to the dice. I'd say this is 4/3 d6 Healing, Standard Effect. That would be 47 AP (20 x 4/3 x 3.5) and the same 14 RP. It goes to 17 when I pull "always on".


re: Always On

I included it for sake of build accuracy.

You are correct to point out that the 5e and 5er examples of "Regeneration" do not include it.

However, how many characters have you seen in fiction with a conscious control of the ability?
(That is, they can choose NOT to regenerate from a wound). The title character of the cancelled "Painkiller Jane" TV show is the only one I've ever seen. (I would build her ability without "Always On").

If a character's regeneration can be used to expose his non-normal nature (example Wolverine: "He must be a mutant, that cut on his hand is already healed!") then I think it's fair to use the Limitation.

re: cost

from page 114 ■ Character Creation: Powers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

LESS THAN FULL DICE
As a general rule, unless the specific rules for an Attack Power indicate otherwise, here’s what a half die of one (or a single point of damage) costs:

If A Full Die Costs... Then A Half Die Costs...
15 points 10 points (or 5 points for 1 point)
10 points 5 points (or 3 points for 1 point)
5 points 3 points (or 2 points for 1 point)
3 points 1½ points (or 1 point for 1 point)

Healing cost 10 points per die so "+1" costs 3 points.
My first example costs 13 points before applying Advantages.
13 * 3.5 = 45.5 which rounds down to 45 per HERO rounding rules.

[archermoo]

It's pure fiat, pulled from the nether regions of a man's head covering. The Healing Power was created with a very specific set of parameters, which (by means of the Regeneration modifiers) are tossed out the window. The combination of "blah blah blah" by which you turn Healing into Regeneration is one pointed statement that says "All of that stuff under Healing? Ignore it; it now works this way."

It's a hand wave. It's not an Advantage to add a bit of functionality to the Power; it's a fundamental change of how the Power works. And, in fact, it's not even an across-the-board change against Healing; it specifically, per several rules question answers by Steve Long, applies only to BODY. On numerous occasions, people have asked Steve, "If I change parameter X on Regeneration, can I have it apply in a different way?" and every time his answer has, essentially, been "No, Regeneration is its own beast. If the GM wants to allow it, sure, but that's not how it's written."

So why is it bad when it is done for Regeneration, but not bad when it is done for any of the other rules in the book? As I said before, if it wasn't a fundamental change to how Healing works, it wouldn't need to be it's own optional rule. It would just be an example power. Why is the hand waving pure fiat rule that has EB do 1d6 per 5 points okay, but the rules governing how Regeneration is different from normal Healing an abomination? I just don't understand it.

[archermoo]

re: Always On

I included it for sake of build accuracy.

You are correct to point out that the 5e and 5er examples of "Regeneration" do not include it.

However, how many characters have you seen in fiction with a conscious control of the ability?
(That is, they can choose NOT to regenerate from a wound). The title character of the cancelled "Painkiller Jane" TV show is the only one I've ever seen. (I would build her ability without "Always On").

If a character's regeneration can be used to expose his non-normal nature (example Wolverine: "He must be a mutant, that cut on his hand is already healed!") then I think it's fair to use the Limitation.


The Regeneration optional rules don't require Always On. But they don't restrict it either. There certainly isn't anything saying that you can only have the Advantages and Limitations that are listed. Just that you are required to take them.

[Hyper-Man]

We seem to have several different ideas being expressed.

I am going to try to identify all of them.
My apologies if I have left any out.

1. The 5e/5er version of Healing based Regeneration sucks. 4e did it better.

2. The 5e/5er version of Healing/Regeneration is great. What's all the fuss about?

3. The 5e/5er version of Healing is a good basis for creating many types of regeneration-like special effects using all the other "standard" Advantages and Limitations. No custom "Regeneration BODY" rule is required. It is redundant and confusing as it is an exception to the apparent philosophy of the "standard" rules.

I agree with #3

I don't agree with #1 because a stand alone "Regeneration" potentially destroys the current "Healing" by way of the "Usable By Other" Advantage.

I don't agree with #2 for most of the same basic reasons pointed out by Hugh.

Yes it's complicated.
HERO is complicated.
It's designed to allow detailed customization for crying out loud.
It's like one of Niven's Laws: Freedom * Security = Constant
The more freedom you have (for character ability customization) the less security (ease of use out of the box) you have.

HM

[Vulcan]

It is a bit of an eyesore if you write out how the new Regeneration works. I just wrote it out in the sidebar once and note it as Regeneration on the character sheet and make sure I list the correct AP and RC.

The only problem I have with the new method is that our games almost always include AP caps and that means that you get half as much Regeneration now as you used to under 4th Ed. That kind of sucks. In a typical game of 60AP caps you only get 3 Body per turn instead of the old 6.

How often do you need more than 3/turn? I've been getting along just fine with 1/hour, on my character with 11 PD/ED (3 rPD/ED) in a 14-16 DC game. When I get hit, I expect to take BODY and have it last a while. Perhaps your expectations for Regeneration are a bit high?

[Vulcan]

It's pure fiat, pulled from the nether regions of a man's head covering. The Healing Power was created with a very specific set of parameters, which (by means of the Regeneration modifiers) are tossed out the window. The combination of "blah blah blah" by which you turn Healing into Regeneration is one pointed statement that says "All of that stuff under Healing? Ignore it; it now works this way."

It's a hand wave. It's not an Advantage to add a bit of functionality to the Power; it's a fundamental change of how the Power works. And, in fact, it's not even an across-the-board change against Healing; it specifically, per several rules question answers by Steve Long, applies only to BODY. On numerous occasions, people have asked Steve, "If I change parameter X on Regeneration, can I have it apply in a different way?" and every time his answer has, essentially, been "No, Regeneration is its own beast. If the GM wants to allow it, sure, but that's not how it's written."

Sounds like perhaps Regeneration should become it's own power again, with it's own rules. Related to Healing? Yes. But the lack of a maximum amount healed with Regeneration seems to annoy rules purists an inordinate amount.:D

In fact, I'm going to post this in the 6E discussion under H...

[CTaylor]

Why is the hand waving pure fiat rule that has EB do 1d6 per 5 points okay, but the rules governing how Regeneration is different from normal Healing an abomination? I just don't understand it.

Its one thing to decide a certain power works a certain way by fiat, that's how you build rules - that's why the Regen power on its own was a superior construct.

When you build a power then, simply to make another power fit in it, you break its rules and say "it works this way only for this one instance," that's bad.

It's like saying Energy Blast costs 5 points/D6... except fire energy blasts which cost 3 and have double END cost. Just cause.

[Hyper-Man]

Sounds like perhaps Regeneration should become it's own power again, with it's own rules. Related to Healing? Yes. But the lack of a maximum amount healed with Regeneration seems to annoy rules purists an inordinate amount.:D

In fact, I'm going to post this in the 6E discussion under H...

Since I will not likely venture into that thread I'll respond here.

Creating a stand alone Regeneration (like 4e had) creates its own set of problems. A whole section of how it can't be used (the UBO Advantage) would have to be created. A whole section on how Healing can't be used to make a "Regeneration-like" effect would likely have to created as well if the goal (of 6e) is to "reduce confusion".

[Vulcan]

Always on for regeneration...

Sticky problem there. Sure, under certain circumstances it can be limiting. In a world where the regenerator would face unrelenting hostility and persecution from visibly healing, sure.

Not all games use that set of societal conditions. For example, Trolls (in D&D, at least) regenerate ridiculosly quickly. In Troll society (such as it is) that is the normal. So always on is not a limitation under those circumstances.

I suspect most games fall in between the two extremes, so -1/2 would be a bit too much in relation to the utility of healing that never stops. -1/4, perhaps?

It falls back to the GM. If he thinks there is jutification for a limitation, then he can allow the player can apply it. If the GM thinks there isn't, then the player can't.

[Hyper-Man]

Always on for regeneration...

Sticky problem there. Sure, under certain circumstances it can be limiting. In a world where the regenerator would face unrelenting hostility and persecution from visibly healing, sure.

Not all games use that set of societal conditions. For example, Trolls (in D&D, at least) regenerate ridiculosly quickly. In Troll society (such as it is) that is the normal. So always on is not a limitation under those circumstances.

I suspect most games fall in between the two extremes, so -1/2 would be a bit too much in relation to the utility of healing that never stops. -1/4, perhaps?

It falls back to the GM. If he thinks there is jutification for a limitation, then he can allow the player can apply it. If the GM thinks there isn't, then the player can't.

Any captured creature/character with a defacto Always On Regeneration is going to be really easy to interrogate/torture for information since the torturers wouldn't have to worry nearly as much about actually KILLING the target. That circumstance is applicable to every GENRE I can think of.

[archermoo]

Its one thing to decide a certain power works a certain way by fiat, that's how you build rules - that's why the Regen power on its own was a superior construct.

When you build a power then, simply to make another power fit in it, you break its rules and say "it works this way only for this one instance," that's bad.

It's like saying Energy Blast costs 5 points/D6... except fire energy blasts which cost 3 and have double END cost. Just cause.

And if there were an optional rule within Energy Blast stating that you could pay 3 points per d6 but have double normal END cost, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. :)

And I still don't understand how an optional rule for changing how a power works can be perceived as "breaking the rules". An optional rule by definition will work differently than the normal rules do. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any point to it. So I fail to see how the optional Regeneration rules within Healing can be seen to be breaking anything.

I'm curious: Do you perceive the optional Hit Location Chart as breaking the rules of determining how much Stun a Killing Attack does?

[Vulcan]

But is it applicable to the extent of a -1/2 limitation? Depends on how often the GM thinks the character will get captured, his psych limits (overprotective of secrets goes a long way toward making interogation more difficult), and if the character also bought Resistance (5 points spent here makes interrogation difficult. 10 points makes it nearly impossible).

Too many factors for there to be a single number, given the sheer usefulness of a healing power that never stops.

[ghost-angel]

Here's how I look at Regeneration:

Optional Rules that says 1 Die heals 1 Body, that's all it will heal. Healing can be applied to ANY Characteristic or Power. So your Regeneration is now less effective than Healing. Let's try and balance it out - there's no Reuse Limit, you can use it constantly.

Here's where I think the mistake was made: forcing Advantages and Limitations onto the Build. Seems to stick in people's craw.

But those Advantages and Limitations make the Optional Rule: Regeneration work like most source material: automatically works (0END/Persistent); over short time (1 Turn); only on the owner (Self Only)

The 1 Turn however is a Limitation over the base assumption of the Optional Rule: can be used any time, all the time. So we put a variant of Extra Time Limitation on it that says automaticall every post-12.

Healing can Heal back Drained Powers if you buy Heal Energy Blast. as an example.
Regeneration cannot. Just BODY here.
Sounds like a subset Optional Rule that was tweaked to allow an Effect into the game. It didn't need a separate Power - 90% of the writeup would look like Healing.

[CTaylor]

Creating a stand alone Regeneration (like 4e had) creates its own set of problems.

Not any more than any other single power. You have to explain that AId can't be used to give someone a power they don't already have. You have to explain that NNDs do no stun. That's part of how a power is defined: you set up what it can and cannot do. Thats not a problem, it's a feature, that's how it is supposed to work.

A whole section of how it can't be used (the UBO Advantage) would have to be created. A whole section on how Healing can't be used to make a "Regeneration-like" effect would likely have to created as well if the goal (of 6e) is to "reduce confusion".

Healing already prohibits a regeneration-like power (which is partly why people have a problem with the current build). And personally, I don't have a problem with Usable on others regeneration but some campaigns might not like it (and they could easily say it can't be used). Like I said above though; defining what a power does and doesn't is how you write one up.


And I still don't understand how an optional rule for changing how a power works can be perceived as "breaking the rules".

Because the rules for Healing specifically say you cannot use the power in this manner. Then they go on to say "and here's how to use the rules in this manner." That's like having Transformation cover Multiform. Transformation specifically says "you cannot use transform on yourself" then the subsection of Transform called Multiform that says "and here's how to build Transform that works on yourself."

I see a conflict and a problem there (as do most people). You don't.

I see a power that was changed from the original rules of Hero for no good reason and a designer who refuses to even consider discussing it in his requests for input. I see a problem with that, too.

[Vulcan]

Not any more than any other single power. You have to explain that AId can't be used to give someone a power they don't already have. You have to explain that NNDs do no stun. That's part of how a power is defined: you set up what it can and cannot do. Thats not a problem, it's a feature, that's how it is supposed to work.

I'm guessing you mean "NND's do no BODY" ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Healing cost 10 points per die so "+1" costs 3 points.
My first example costs 13 points before applying Advantages.
13 * 3.5 = 45.5 which rounds down to 45 per HERO rounding rules.

When 10 points buy 1 d6, and standard effect on 1d6 is 3, I'm reluctant to allow +1 for 3 points. Buy it 3 times and you have 1d6 (standard effect) for 9 points instead of 10. Not a big difference, though.

[CTaylor]

Thanks for gettin my back Vulcan :) that's what I meant!

And yeah I'd suggest 4 points per +1 on a 10 point power; it doesn't give you a very good deal but it adds up better in the end.

[Hyper-Man]

When 10 points buy 1 d6, and standard effect on 1d6 is 3, I'm reluctant to allow +1 for 3 points. Buy it 3 times and you have 1d6 (standard effect) for 9 points instead of 10. Not a big difference, though.

So are you saying that you disagree with the published partial dice rules or the rounding rules or both?

Regardless, what does that really have to do with the current topic?

[Hugh Neilson]

So are you saying that you disagree with the published partial dice rules or the rounding rules or both?

Regardless, what does that really have to do with the current topic?

To your latter point, it impacts the pricing of your constructs.

To the former, either partial dice or standard effect should change. I'm a fan of setting standard effect at 3.5 per die and then rounding the final result down if we're using an odd number of dice. That would held with the pricing of partial dice.

I'd be OK with partial dice changing to be based on 1/5ths of dice. Say

1/5 = +1
2/5 = 1/3d6
3/5 = 1/2 d6
4/5 = 1d6 - 1
5/5 = 1d6

That's probably as fine as it can reasonably be broken up. That would reduce the price of +1 rather than increase it, though, so maybe it should be possible for that +1 to be a zero in some cases. Between standard effect and the difficulty in dividing costs by the average or standard effect on 1d6, it's not going to be perfect in any case. It would be simplified if standard effect and average rolled were equalized. Something to work out for 6e, perhaps.

[Hyper-Man]

To your latter point, it impacts the pricing of your constructs.

To the former, either partial dice or standard effect should change. I'm a fan of setting standard effect at 3.5 per die and then rounding the final result down if we're using an odd number of dice. That would held with the pricing of partial dice.

I'd be OK with partial dice changing to be based on 1/5ths of dice. Say

1/5 = +1
2/5 = 1/3d6
3/5 = 1/2 d6
4/5 = 1d6 - 1
5/5 = 1d6

That's probably as fine as it can reasonably be broken up. That would reduce the price of +1 rather than increase it, though, so maybe it should be possible for that +1 to be a zero in some cases. Between standard effect and the difficulty in dividing costs by the average or standard effect on 1d6, it's not going to be perfect in any case. It would be simplified if standard effect and average rolled were equalized. Something to work out for 6e, perhaps.


Again, this is a totally separate issue from the Regeneration power.


My constructs were built using current 5e/5er rules to illustrate a point about those rules in particular.

Raising a point of contention with how those current 'standard effect' rules should be changed in future editions seems like a more appropriate topic of discussion in the 6e forum (which I choose to abstain from for the time being).

[archermoo]

Because the rules for Healing specifically say you cannot use the power in this manner. Then they go on to say "and here's how to use the rules in this manner." That's like having Transformation cover Multiform. Transformation specifically says "you cannot use transform on yourself" then the subsection of Transform called Multiform that says "and here's how to build Transform that works on yourself."

I see a conflict and a problem there (as do most people). You don't.

I see a power that was changed from the original rules of Hero for no good reason and a designer who refuses to even consider discussing it in his requests for input. I see a problem with that, too.

Again, you seem to be looking at Regeneration as if it were a power example rather than an optional change in the rules as to how Healing works. As I've said in the past if Healing didn't specifically prohibit how Regeneration is defined, there wouldn't be any reason to have a set of optional rules governing how it operated. It would in actuality be the example power you seem to insist on already treating it as.

But it isn't an example power. It is a optional modification of the Healing rules. By definition that means that it will work differently than the base Healing rules allow for. So I can't see how "It doesn't things specifically prohibited by the Healing rules" is a valid objection to it. If it didn't do things specifically disallowed by the Healing rules, there wouldn't be any reason for the optional Regeneration rules to exist.

Multiform works in a very different way than Transform does, so there is little to no overlap in how those powers are defined. On the other hand there is a great deal of overlap between how Regeneration and Healing work, so it make sense to have Regeneration defined as a special case of Healing, with its own special rules. That way all of the points of similarity get taken care of automatically, and the only things that need to get noted are the exceptions. Which just take a couple of paragraphs.

And I disagree that "most people" agree with you. There are certainly some vocal people here on the Hero boards that do, but that doesn't mean that they represent most Hero players.

[CTaylor]

Like I said, it doesn't bother you, good for you. You asked why it's a problem to so many people and I explained it. You apparently disagree with the reasons, but that's why people are displeased with the system. I hope Steve takes a different position on this than you - in fact I hope he bends on his "I won't even discuss the matter despite claiming to be open to anything" position regarding Regen and Instant Change.

[ghost-angel]

I guess what Archermoo (and myself) don't completely understand from your POV on this is why if Regeneration is a seperate Power Entry it's better than if Regeneration is explained as an Alternate Mechanic to the Healing Power entry?

Would it make a difference if the Alternate Mechanic went a little further in the Alternate aspect and simply incorporated some (or all) of the Advantages and Limitations directly into the Alternate/Optional Rule? But to still leave it under Healing since both Powers do essentially the same thing.

Healing's base Mechanic is to restore a Power or Characteristic to Starting Values after they have been reduced in some manner. Regeneration is designed to work specifically with the Body Characteristic in a slightly different manner. At least, that is how myself (and I believe Archermoo, though I don't want to speak directly for him) see the Healing/Regeneration dynamic.

[archermoo]

Like I said, it doesn't bother you, good for you. You asked why it's a problem to so many people and I explained it. You apparently disagree with the reasons, but that's why people are displeased with the system. I hope Steve takes a different position on this than you - in fact I hope he bends on his "I won't even discuss the matter despite claiming to be open to anything" position regarding Regen and Instant Change.

Well, it isn't just a matter of it not bothering me. I still don't have any idea why it bothers anyone, other than "I preferred it being the other way". "It breaks the Healing rules" isn't really a valid objection, since it by definition needs to 'break' the rules for Healing before there is any point in including it as an optional variant of Healing.

Which brings me back to my original statement: I don't understand the objections. You haven't bothered to address any of the points I've made, so I guess I'll just be staying in the dark. *shrug*

[Chris Goodwin]

Well, it isn't just a matter of it not bothering me. I still don't have any idea why it bothers anyone, other than "I preferred it being the other way". "It breaks the Healing rules" isn't really a valid objection, since it by definition needs to 'break' the rules for Healing before there is any point in including it as an optional variant of Healing.

If it used to be a separate Power, and it works as if it were a separate Power, why insist on having it be part of Healing?

[pinecone]

My own dislike for the "new" Regen is based on the same sort of reasoning....I build characters all the time to avoid boredom. So I like to carry the "Rules" in my head.

Old regen 10 per...got it.

New Regen "It's a base power with a bunch of adds and disadds, and the math is a little wonky, I need to reference the book every blinkin time to double check"

That I don't "got", it strikes me as complication for it's own sake. So I don't like it.

Style mostly, but usability as well.... I don't like complexity for it's own sake...

[Chris Goodwin]

I have lately been of the opinion that an ability that is common in source should be represented by a single Power. We have lots of examples of that. Until 5th edition, Regeneration was one.

[ghost-angel]

Common to WHICH source?

Surely we can come up with literally hundreds of 'common effects in source material' across all the genres HERO can emulate.

[ghost-angel]

I have lately been of the opinion that an ability that is common in source should be represented by a single Power. We have lots of examples of that. Until 5th edition, Regeneration was one.

Been thinking on this because I keep waffling between thinking it's a great idea and absolute horror.

The problem I see (beyond the sheer number of genres we'd have to seriously look at for common effects in source) is it tends to include SFX into the Powers.

The ability to 'regenerate' is (once you strip SFX) the ability to repair damage very quickly. whether it's a bio-organism healing rapidly or a nano-construct rebuilding itself nearly instantly.

So - we turn to our nifty Tool Kit and we need to Heal. but faster than normal. So the Healing Power needs some modification, since it works fastish, but not as fast as we'd like. And it has other restrictions on it that prevent this. There's no real work around for it - at least not one consummate with effectiveness vs cost.

Leaves us two options:
An Optional SubRule
A New Base Power

Your idea would certainly simplify a lot of Character Creation right down to choosing from a list.

On the other hand it would muddle that list with SFX and Mechanics mushed into one. Where do we start to draw the line between a Base Power Cited In Source and a Power Build Cited In Source?

[Lord Liaden]

Again, you seem to be looking at Regeneration as if it were a power example rather than an optional change in the rules as to how Healing works. As I've said in the past if Healing didn't specifically prohibit how Regeneration is defined, there wouldn't be any reason to have a set of optional rules governing how it operated. It would in actuality be the example power you seem to insist on already treating it as.

But it isn't an example power. It is a optional modification of the Healing rules. By definition that means that it will work differently than the base Healing rules allow for. So I can't see how "It doesn't things specifically prohibited by the Healing rules" is a valid objection to it. If it didn't do things specifically disallowed by the Healing rules, there wouldn't be any reason for the optional Regeneration rules to exist.

Well, I think it's a little misleading to emphasize the "optional" nature of the Regeneration rules. Every published character and creature that I've seen in Fifth Edition books that has this exclusively self-healing capacity has it built to these parameters. If we had one or more reasonably common examples of it being done differently, it would be easier to accept that this is not intended to be the "official" way to build Regeneration.

If these rules were truly optional, and designed for greater flexibility, the source books would allow for and even encourage variations. Why can't someone leave off Self Only to Regenerate someone else by touch? Why can't the Extra Time be reduced for faster Regen? Why can't it cost Endurance, or not be Persistent so someone would have to be conscious to use it? Why can't it apply to Characteristics other than BODY? IMHO the real reason is because 5E Regeneration is a transparent attempt to grandfather the very specific effect of 4E Regeneration via a different construct. As long as that's the case the comparisons to 4E Regen are inevitable.

Consider this: we want the Power to Heal a set amount of BODY, so we make it Standard Effect (1 BODY per 1d6 isn't exactly accurate, but close enough). We want it to not cost END, so it buys Reduced Endurance. We don't want it to shut off when the possessor is unconscious, so we apply Persistent. It's supposed to work gradually rather than instantly, so takes Extra Time. It's only supposed to work for the possessor of the Power, so of course it's Self Only. To Heal someone regardless of the amount of damage he takes, which default Healing doesn't do... well, there you go. Every rules-legal permutation of Healing to make it work in the desired fashion is accounted for with the appropriate Modifier, except one of the most important ones, which makes the Power more effective than in its base form. The illogic of going through more steps than with 4E Regen to recreate its effect, yet not accounting for the desired result, is what I object to most about the current construct.

[Vulcan]

Thanks for gettin my back Vulcan :) that's what I meant!

:thumbup: No prob.

[Vulcan]

Like I said, it doesn't bother you, good for you. You asked why it's a problem to so many people and I explained it. You apparently disagree with the reasons, but that's why people are displeased with the system. I hope Steve takes a different position on this than you - in fact I hope he bends on his "I won't even discuss the matter despite claiming to be open to anything" position regarding Regen and Instant Change.

I'm posting relavent parts of this thread on the 6E discussion under R.

Personally, I don't see any problem with it as-it. It is in the Healing rules, yes, but it is one of three separate listings under the 'Options for Healing' header. So, if a GM doesn't like Regeneration (or Simplified Healing, or Flash Healing) he can simply disallow it. Or he can require the character actually buy up the amount of BODY the Regeneration can heal. Or require he buy Continuous, or Trigger, or any other advantage he wants. It is just there as a suggestion.

On the other hand, I think that Regeneration is an important enough power that it should have an official write-up, not an optional rule. The GM always retains the right to alter the rules as he sees fit, after all.

[ghost-angel]

Maybe what we really need is a better write-up of Healing as a whole to allow for this.

The Re-Use time issue is just clunky no matter how you slice it.

[Lord Liaden]

Maybe what we really need is a better write-up of Healing as a whole to allow for this.

The Re-Use time issue is just clunky no matter how you slice it.

I apologise to anyone who's read me saying this before :o , but IMHO the default restrictions on Healing run counter to the spirit of HERO System. Healing has a lot of "game balance" factors built in, but there are quite a few Powers and Advantages which could be unbalancing if used without restraint. The game normally leaves it to the GM to decide what's acceptable at his table. Personally I would prefer a more wide-open Healing Power -- if I want restrictions on Healing for a particular setting or campaign, I could Limit it as I wish.

[ghost-angel]

I apologise to anyone who's read me saying this before :o , but IMHO the default restrictions on Healing run counter to the spirit of HERO System. Healing has a lot of "game balance" factors built in, but there are quite a few Powers and Advantages which could be unbalancing if used without restraint. The game normally leaves it to the GM to decide what's acceptable at his table. Personally I would prefer a more wide-open Healing Power -- if I want restrictions on Healing for a particular setting or campaign, I could Limit it as I wish.

Indeed. The 'forced balance' on Healing causes more problems than it solves IMO.

[archermoo]

Well, I think it's a little misleading to emphasize the "optional" nature of the Regeneration rules. Every published character and creature that I've seen in Fifth Edition books that has this exclusively self-healing capacity has it built to these parameters. If we had one or more reasonably common examples of it being done differently, it would be easier to accept that this is not intended to be the "official" way to build Regeneration.

If these rules were truly optional, and designed for greater flexibility, the source books would allow for and even encourage variations. Why can't someone leave off Self Only to Regenerate someone else by touch? Why can't the Extra Time be reduced for faster Regen? Why can't it cost Endurance, or not be Persistent so someone would have to be conscious to use it? Why can't it apply to Characteristics other than BODY? IMHO the real reason is because 5E Regeneration is a transparent attempt to grandfather the very specific effect of 4E Regeneration via a different construct. As long as that's the case the comparisons to 4E Regen are inevitable.

I don't see how it being the official way to do Regeneration make is no longer optional. The Hit Location Chart is an optional rule, and it is also the official way to determine where you hit an opponent. Is it somehow less optional because there aren't any other ways presented in the rules or examples of determining where you hit someone?

It is an optional rule. If people don't want to allow a Regeneration type power in their games, they just don't use this optional variant of Healing. If they do want to, there is this optional variant available for them.

Consider this: we want the Power to Heal a set amount of BODY, so we make it Standard Effect (1 BODY per 1d6 isn't exactly accurate, but close enough). We want it to not cost END, so it buys Reduced Endurance. We don't want it to shut off when the possessor is unconscious, so we apply Persistent. It's supposed to work gradually rather than instantly, so takes Extra Time. It's only supposed to work for the possessor of the Power, so of course it's Self Only. To Heal someone regardless of the amount of damage he takes, which default Healing doesn't do... well, there you go. Every rules-legal permutation of Healing to make it work in the desired fashion is accounted for with the appropriate Modifier, except one of the most important ones, which makes the Power more effective than in its base form. The illogic of going through more steps than with 4E Regen to recreate its effect, yet not accounting for the desired result, is what I object to most about the current construct.

Are you objecting that you can't build Regeneration without using the Regeneration rules? If so, that seems to me like objecting that you can't determine where you hit someone within the rules without using the Hit Location Chart.

If you are objecting to how Regeneration is built using the Regeneration rules, I don't understand what you are objecting to. The desired result is accounted for. The result is a power that heals for 1 Body every post 12. How is that not accounted for in the Regeneration rules?

The Regeneration variant on Healing has some changes to how base Healing works, and it has some required Advantages and Limitations that must be applied. I'll agree that it might have been a bit easier to take those Advantages and Limitations into account and just come up with a different base cost than base Healing. But that would change how further Advantages and Limitations modify the Real Cost.

[Lord Liaden]

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV. :)

[Vulcan]

I don't know if I'd call it all that important of a limitation. Healing is already limited in that it can only restore values back to their original level. It's not like it can add extra points, such as Aid and Transfer do.

And if it is that important, why doesn't Drain have the same limitation? It seems to me that unlimited low-dice Drain can be more abusive than unlimited low-dice Healing.

But that's me.

[ghost-angel]

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV. :)

It doesn't quite "just handwave it away"

It trades it in. Regeneration is restricted to Body Characteristic Only in return for removing the Reuse Cap.

[Hugh Neilson]

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV. :)

To me, it was needed in 5e to allow Regen to function. However, corners were cut in not costing out the "cap per turn" advantage (it extrapolates out to +1).

Once FH came out, with its reduced re-use rate, it was possible to build regen with no such handwave, but it was too late. In my view, reduced reuse rate should have been designed to be +1 for 1/turn to make regen work, or should have provided an alternate Regen cost to replace that in 5e and use the decreased reuse advantage.

5er could have fixed that, except for the commitment that 5er would not make any changes to existing structures.

I don't know if I'd call it all that important of a limitation. Healing is already limited in that it can only restore values back to their original level. It's not like it can add extra points, such as Aid and Transfer do.

And if it is that important, why doesn't Drain have the same limitation? It seems to me that unlimited low-dice Drain can be more abusive than unlimited low-dice Healing.

My character will stand still for five minutes+ to allow that low dice Healing to fully cure him after combat. He will not stand still to be Drained. The cap on Transfer as a drain should be removed - buying a Drain and Linked Aid is far more cost-effective, and it should not be.

[Sean Waters]

Rapid Regeneration

Adjustment power
Range: Self Only
Does not cost END
Persistent

For 5 character points you recover (whenever you take a PS 12 recovery) 1 character point worth of a characteristic or power that you have lost through another adjustment power or through the manifestation of any other power, including damage.

If the characteristic or power was lost through an adjustment power, Rapid Regeneration adds to the points you would recover for that characteristic or power due to the normal fade rate. For example, if you have RR 1 (Energy Blast), for 5 points, and your EB is drained by 20 points, instead of recovering 5 points to the power every turn, you would recover 6.

Probably the most common use of the power is to buy 10 points for RR 2 (Body), to simulate the ability to rapidly regenerate damage, by recovering 1 Body each turn. NB if you have Body regeneration and you are using the bleeding rules then you need to devote 1 point of regeneration (not a point of Body) to stopping each 1d6 of bleeding before you can start to recover Body. If you are in negative pody,t he first point of RR (Body) stops further deterioration and any subsequent points are devotind to stopping bleeding and then regenerating Body. If you buy RR (Body) you can take a -1 limtiation: only to stop bleeding and deterioration.

You can apply any of the normal modifiers to the power so that you can, for instance, Rapidly Regenerate more than one ability linked by common sfx at once. You can also reduce the regeneration rate by moving down the time scale for a -1/4 limitation for each grade.

You cannot move UP the time table as such but if you buy enough RR to regenerate more than 1 character point per turn then you can apply the regeneration, with GM permission, during the turn, so, for instance, if you can RR 5 character points, and you have 5 SPD, you can decide than, instead of regenerating 5 points PS12, you regenerate 1 on each of your phases. If you use this option you chose when you build the power, and cannot subsequently change your mind.

You can apply Rapid Regeneration to senses that have been flashed - each point of RR reduces the remaining segments that the sense remains flashed by 1 at PS 12: a targetting sense group costs 3 character points, a targeting sense or non-targeting group costs 2, and a non-targeting sense costs 1.

Regrowth

Body power
Range: Self Only
Does not cost END
Persistent

Rapid Regeneration is a form of rapid healing and does not allow you to do anything that normal healing would not do, so if you have lost a leg, it will not grow back.

You can purchase seperately the Regrowth power whuich does allow limbs and other organs to grow back. You do not need to buy RR to buy Regrowth - if you do not have RR, use your normal healing rates.

For 5 points you can heal without scarring, and bones will set int heir normal configuration. If you are suffering an impairment and recover the Body before the impairment would normally be gone, this level of regrowth will remove it. It also removes any disabling effect that did COM damage.

For 10 points you can heal any injury even if that requires re-growing some tissue - you can regrow lost limbs ans surface tissue. This level of regrowth prevents permanent disability from anything by complete amputation. You cannot usually recover lost memories, however.

For 20 points you can actually re-grow lost body parts, lost limbs, lungs or whatever. No damaging effect is considered permanent - you can even recover lost memories, if the GM allows. If you were beheaded and your head was somehow kept alive you could eventually re-grow an entire body.

Generally only one body part will fully recover, so, for instance, if you did regrow your body after being beheaded, your body would not also re-grow a head, but the GM might have this happen for plot purposes, or if you wanted to have a form of duplication where you cuold not re-combine.

Resurrection

Body power
Range: Self Only
Does not cost END
Persistent

You do not need to buy RR or regrowth to purchase resurrection, although it might be sensible.

Normally when you reach -(Body), you permanently die. If you buy resurection for 20 points, you die as normal. In effect you no longer require the normal process of life but, so long as you are not in an environment that causes damage, and so long as you are not further damaged by any other means, your body stops deteriorating and starts to heal (if you do not have RR, you 'heal' one Body per month, or longer time period as you see fit). When you are healed to the point that you would be at 0 Body, you become conscious and 'alive' again. You are not able to sense anything or take any actions until this happens, because you are dead.

If, however, your corpse takes MORE that -(Body) you die permanently.

For +5 points you can take damage up to -(Body x2) before you are permanently dead - this is normally the point at which your corpse would be considered utterly destroyed. You still 'die' and stop deteriorating naturally at -(Body).

Resurrection does not automatically include any re-growth of body parts that are lost, so even if you live again you could still be a mess.

If you have re-growth at the +20 level you can regrow and resurrect so long as some part of your Body remains, even if the rest of it has taken damage in excess of -(Body x2). It is up to the GM to determine how much (and what sort) of tissue need be preserved before you can resurrect.

Unless the GM allows otherwise you cannot resurect if your Body is completely destroyed.

[Lord Liaden]

It doesn't quite "just handwave it away"

It trades it in. Regeneration is restricted to Body Characteristic Only in return for removing the Reuse Cap.

*Shrug* Healing at base level affects one Characteristic at a time, so I'm afraid I don't see how decreeing that Regeneration Healing can only be bought to work on BODY is a trade for removing the Reuse Cap. But I think I've beaten this dead horse enough. This is how it's officially done, so I'll change it for my own games, let other folks use what they like, and hold my nose if I happen to write up anything for publication with Regeneration... at least, until I see how Sixth Edition handles it. ;)

Speaking of which, Steve Long's "HEROglyphs" column in Digital Hero #29 describes an IMHO very cool option for REC-based Regeneration. I'd be quite happy to see that become a standard Power in 6E. :)

[Chris Goodwin]

It doesn't quite "just handwave it away"

It trades it in. Regeneration is restricted to Body Characteristic Only in return for removing the Reuse Cap.

And where exactly are the details of this Modifier written down?

[Hugh Neilson]

Although not written down, if you work the math, there is an implicit +1 for elimination of the reuse restriction (or reducing it to per turn, depending on how one views this). Although 1d6 heal is used, standard effect of 2 points means you're only getting 2/3 of the die.

The fact it's not written down is annoying, and I would hope 6e provides a writeup for Regen which includes all modifiers, assuming a "regen from healing" approach continued into 6e.

[ghost-angel]

*Shrug* Healing at base level affects one Characteristic at a time, so I'm afraid I don't see how decreeing that Regeneration Healing can only be bought to work on BODY is a trade for removing the Reuse Cap. But I think I've beaten this dead horse enough. This is how it's officially done, so I'll change it for my own games, let other folks use what they like, and hold my nose if I happen to write up anything for publication with Regeneration... at least, until I see how Sixth Edition handles it. ;)

Speaking of which, Steve Long's "HEROglyphs" column in Digital Hero #29 describes an IMHO very cool option for REC-based Regeneration. I'd be quite happy to see that become a standard Power in 6E. :)

Prevents me from buying Regenerate STUN, or EGO, or . . .Anything else.

And where exactly are the details of this Modifier written down?

5ER p187, bottom left hand column. It's not a modifier, it's a change to the Base Rule to create an Optional Rule.

[Sean Waters]

Hero is a game about general principles, not specific exceptions.

If a particular build is abusive, the tools for preventing it ruining a game are the GM, and the word 'No'.

If we have to apply exceptions to standard powers to create an effect, then why base them on a standard power in the first place? They are something different.

In my, always humble, opinion, of course :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Hero is a game about general principles, not specific exceptions.

If a particular build is abusive, the tools for preventing it ruining a game are the GM, and the word 'No'.

If we have to apply exceptions to standard powers to create an effect, then why base them on a standard power in the first place? They are something different.

In my, always humble, opinion, of course :D

In large part, I agree. But one general principal could logically be "restoring damage is the province of Recovery and Healing". That would indicate a separate Regeneration power should not exist, and the effect should be constructed using Healing.

[And did the books really get that lengthy on just general principals?]

[Sean Waters]

In large part, I agree. But one general principal could logically be "restoring damage is the province of Recovery and Healing". That would indicate a separate Regeneration power should not exist, and the effect should be constructed using Healing.

[And did the books really get that lengthy on just general principals?]

I can certainly see the attraction to making regeneration a part of Healing, but no more than making healing a part of Aid. If it works off the same principles, that works well for me, and, whilst I'm an opinionated blow-hard, there does seem to be a quite disproportional amount of debate around regeneration, so maybe it does need a look-see.

My problem is that we need special rules that ONLY apply to a single build to make it work as part of Healing, and, to me, that is the best possible evidence that it shouldn't be there, or at least shouldn't be there at that price.

The powers I suggested (and, you understand, I just made all that up and didn't edit it particularly for clarity and brevity - I was just getting it in-post) do make regeneration an adjustment power, but have a lot more general applicability, and they take regrowth ans resurrection out of being adders and make them seperate powers (you shouldn't NEED regeneration to be able to regrow a limb - it just takes a lot longer without it).

There is always a point of diminishing returns, but seperating the elements out rather than trying to cram them into somewhere they don't (IMO) fit properly, expands the tool options of the system whilst maintaining useability, which seems like a pretty good criteria for inclusion.

I think if we did stick to general principles - and really thought about those core values - the core build rules could be shorter and we could spend more times (and space) presenting examples of interesting, consistent builds.

It is only fair, of course, to point out that 5th ed regeneration is something I've always had a problem with, so, I'm biased. I think it is a shame that 5ER, when it bought in reduced re-use duration, an advantage unavailable in 5th, decided to maintain the make and mend rules it used for regeneration rather than applying its new principles.

[Hugh Neilson]

It is only fair, of course, to point out that 5th ed regeneration is something I've always had a problem with, so, I'm biased. I think it is a shame that 5ER, when it bought in reduced re-use duration, an advantage unavailable in 5th, decided to maintain the make and mend rules it used for regeneration rather than applying its new principles.

I agree that the entire structure would be improved by incorporated decreased re-use into Regen. That could not be done in 5er due to Steve's commitment not to change anything, but is easily implemented in 6E.

2/3d6 Heal, 0 END, Persistent, Reduced re-use 1/turn, Standard Effect 2 CP 23 AP self only, 1 turn 8 RP. And away we go.

[Doc Democracy]

In large part, I agree. But one general principal could logically be "restoring damage is the province of Recovery and Healing". That would indicate a separate Regeneration power should not exist, and the effect should be constructed using Healing.


Now I agree with the first part of this. restoring damage should be the province of recovery and healing - though aid does do a facsimile of healing...

However, I liked the construct Sean has below...

Rapid Regeneration

Adjustment power
Range: Self Only
Does not cost END
Persistent

For 5 character points you recover (whenever you take a PS 12 recovery) 1 character point worth of a characteristic or power that you have lost through another adjustment power or through the manifestation of any other power, including damage.

If the characteristic or power was lost through an adjustment power, Rapid Regeneration adds to the points you would recover for that characteristic or power due to the normal fade rate. For example, if you have RR 1 (Energy Blast), for 5 points, and your EB is drained by 20 points, instead of recovering 5 points to the power every turn, you would recover 6.

Probably the most common use of the power is to buy 10 points for RR 2 (Body), to simulate the ability to rapidly regenerate damage, by recovering 1 Body each turn. NB if you have Body regeneration and you are using the bleeding rules then you need to devote 1 point of regeneration (not a point of Body) to stopping each 1d6 of bleeding before you can start to recover Body. If you are in negative pody,t he first point of RR (Body) stops further deterioration and any subsequent points are devotind to stopping bleeding and then regenerating Body. If you buy RR (Body) you can take a -1 limtiation: only to stop bleeding and deterioration.

You can apply any of the normal modifiers to the power so that you can, for instance, Rapidly Regenerate more than one ability linked by common sfx at once. You can also reduce the regeneration rate by moving down the time scale for a -1/4 limitation for each grade.

You cannot move UP the time table as such but if you buy enough RR to regenerate more than 1 character point per turn then you can apply the regeneration, with GM permission, during the turn, so, for instance, if you can RR 5 character points, and you have 5 SPD, you can decide than, instead of regenerating 5 points PS12, you regenerate 1 on each of your phases. If you use this option you chose when you build the power, and cannot subsequently change your mind.

You can apply Rapid Regeneration to senses that have been flashed - each point of RR reduces the remaining segments that the sense remains flashed by 1 at PS 12: a targetting sense group costs 3 character points, a targeting sense or non-targeting group costs 2, and a non-targeting sense costs 1.


However, I would possibly look at calling it rapid recovery and instead of giving points recovery per point you would change the rate of recovery one step in the time chart. I haven't looked at costs yet but you can recover 1/20 REC in BODY per day in normal terms? In HERO the average REC must be around 8 or so - so 4/5 BODY per day. It would take a few steps to get that down to about 4/5 BODY per turn but would be more effective for high BODY bricks than low BODY energy blasters...

The adders and stuff that I snipped from Sean's post would work well here.

The problem with regeneration is that it is not healing as presented in the book and it feels twisted to make it fit there.

We accept that to change self in HERO you use shapeshift and multiform, to change others you use transform. I see no conflict in having to use healing for others and some other kind of power for self healing. I would prefer that to build on something we already have - ability to take a recovery when not resting or accelerated recoveries in the matter of BODY.


Doc

[archermoo]

I guess what I'm objecting to is that there's no "exceed the maximum Healing cap" Advantage in that mix. I don't see the point to making the effort to follow the default rules for turning Healing into Regeneration in every other way, and then just handwaving away one of Healing's most important restrictions. Eliminating that restriction isn't just a different way to handle Healing; it's a significant improvement in the utility of the Power, and in HERO such improvements are typically paid for with Advantages or Adders.

I'd prefer either a full accounting, or just defining a Regeneration base power subset of Healing (again, like Succor is to Aid). But I do want to stress that this is my personal objection, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to be satisfied with Regen as it stands. YMMV. :)

It isn't handwaving any more than the base rules of Healing are handwaving. Or the base rules of any other power. Regeneration isn't just an example build of default Healing. It is a power based on Healing, which is why it is written up in the Healing section. However it has significant modifications to the base Healing Power, which is why it has its own subsection of the rules.

As I don't consider the fact that Energy Blasts and Killing Attacks determine how much damage they do in different ways to be handwaving, I also don't consider the rules changes made in Healing to make the optional Regeneration rules to be handwaving.

And where exactly are the details of this Modifier written down?

It isn't a Modifier. It is a change to the rules of Healing. The specifics of this optional modification to the rules of Healing are written down on p187 of 5ER.

Which again seems to be the root of the problem. People seem to object to Regeneration because they see it as just a sample Power write up, rather than a set of rules changes to how the Healing Power works. Why this is such a difficult concept to grasp I have no idea.

Within the Healing Power there is a Regeneration subsection. This subsection contains optional changes to the base rules for the Healing Power that alters how it works. Some of those changes are required Advantages and Limitations. And some of them are specific modifications to how the Power itself works. These changes are not Power Modifiers. They are new rules in and of themselves that change how the Healing Power works.

[Hugh Neilson]

However, I liked the construct Sean has below...

However, I would possibly look at calling it rapid recovery and instead of giving points recovery per point you would change the rate of recovery one step in the time chart. I haven't looked at costs yet but you can recover 1/20 REC in BODY per day in normal terms? In HERO the average REC must be around 8 or so - so 4/5 BODY per day. It would take a few steps to get that down to about 4/5 BODY per turn but would be more effective for high BODY bricks than low BODY energy blasters...

The adders and stuff that I snipped from Sean's post would work well here.

I also like Sean's system as an alternative, although I'm fine with Healing being maintained. To your comments:

- I prefer the Rapid Recovery name you suggest, except that it seems to link the ability with the Recovery characteristic.

- To me, linking this with REC would require that its cost be linked with the amount of REC available. There are two reasons for this. First that I don't want the cost of Regen to vary with a character's REC (while REC does recover BOD, to me it is far more about recovery of STUN and END than BOD). Second, it complicates setting regeneration at a specific level (eg. 2 BOD per turn).

The problem with regeneration is that it is not healing as presented in the book and it feels twisted to make it fit there.

6e could readily correct this by constricting Regeneration with reduced re-use time, 1 turn and reflecting the fact that 2 CP is 2/3 of 1d6, and not a full d6. The mechanics now exist (they did not in 5e) to build regeneration without handwaving, so let's use them.

We accept that to change self in HERO you use shapeshift and multiform, to change others you use transform. I see no conflict in having to use healing for others and some other kind of power for self healing. I would prefer that to build on something we already have - ability to take a recovery when not resting or accelerated recoveries in the matter of BODY.

We also accept that Transform cannot be used to Transform the character using the ability. Are you proposing that Healing be restricted to others, and not permitted to heal the character himself? To me, the key difference is that Transform is designed as an attack, while Multiform and Shapeshift are not. The differentiation between Healing and Regeneration is less pronounced, at least in my eyes.

It isn't a Modifier. It is a change to the rules of Healing. The specifics of this optional modification to the rules of Healing are written down on p187 of 5ER.

It's funny that no one ever asks "where are the Cumulative and Costs END and Costs END to maintain or fades immediately modifiers" when discussing the Succor variant of Aid. As Archermoo says, Regeneration as presented in 5e is not a sample power using healing. It is a variant power with different rules.

[Chris Goodwin]

It isn't handwaving any more than the base rules of Healing are handwaving. Or the base rules of any other power. Regeneration isn't just an example build of default Healing. It is a power based on Healing, which is why it is written up in the Healing section. However it has significant modifications to the base Healing Power, which is why it has its own subsection of the rules.

As I don't consider the fact that Energy Blasts and Killing Attacks determine how much damage they do in different ways to be handwaving, I also don't consider the rules changes made in Healing to make the optional Regeneration rules to be handwaving.

Energy Blast and Killing Attack are two separate Powers.

It isn't a Modifier. It is a change to the rules of Healing. The specifics of this optional modification to the rules of Healing are written down on p187 of 5ER.

Which again seems to be the root of the problem. People seem to object to Regeneration because they see it as just a sample Power write up, rather than a set of rules changes to how the Healing Power works. Why this is such a difficult concept to grasp I have no idea.

If it's a rules change it should be a separate Power. In fact, it's a rules change to make the Healing Power work the way the Regeneration Power used to. It would be as if, in 6e, there were one Power called Damage. This Power is a ranged Normal attack; if you want it to be Killing you buy it with a specific build (say, AVLD Resistant Defenses) and suddenly you roll the dice differently.

It's been mentioned that the Regeneration build should have used the Reset Time Modifier from Fantasy Hero and 5er, with some speculation as to why that wasn't done. I'm on record in the past (in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40563)) stating that it should have been done this way.

[Doc Democracy]

I also like Sean's system as an alternative, although I'm fine with Healing being maintained. To your comments:

- I prefer the Rapid Recovery name you suggest, except that it seems to link the ability with the Recovery characteristic.

And I thought I was explicit about that. :D

I think that people buying a high REC are almost buying a limited version of regeneration anyway. If someone buys rapid recovery on top of a high REC then they regenerate more quickly.

- To me, linking this with REC would require that its cost be linked with the amount of REC available. There are two reasons for this. First that I don't want the cost of Regen to vary with a character's REC (while REC does recover BOD, to me it is far more about recovery of STUN and END than BOD). Second, it complicates setting regeneration at a specific level (eg. 2 BOD per turn).

I hadn't suggested a cost structure. I don't see a huge problem in making the base cost of the rapid recovery power a factor of the characters REC. Possibly you could buy rapid recovery on a portion of your REC, same way as you buy damage resistance on a portion of your defences (which would simplify the 2 BODY/turn aspect of things).


Doc

[archermoo]

Energy Blast and Killing Attack are two separate Powers.

Yup. And Regeneration is a set of optional rules that make Healing work differently.

If it's a rules change it should be a separate Power.

Which sends us directly into the realm of personal opinion. You think Steve should've laid the book out differently. Fine, but it still doesn't mean that the Regeneration options rules are in any way against the rules.

In fact, it's a rules change to make the Healing Power work the way the Regeneration Power used to. It would be as if, in 6e, there were one Power called Damage. This Power is a ranged Normal attack; if you want it to be Killing you buy it with a specific build (say, AVLD Resistant Defenses) and suddenly you roll the dice differently.

It's been mentioned that the Regeneration build should have used the Reset Time Modifier from Fantasy Hero and 5er, with some speculation as to why that wasn't done. I'm on record in the past (in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40563)) stating that it should have been done this way.

Regeneration isn't a build. It is a set of optional rules for changing how Healing works. Regardless of how many times it gets referred to as either a build or a sample power it won't change the fact that that isn't what it is. It is a set of optional rules that is based off of Healing, but makes some significant changes to the Healing rules.

My issue isn't whether or not Regeneration should have or could have been built differently. My issue is people ignoring the rules to claim that it somehow breaks the rules. It doesn't break the rules any more than any other section of rules breaks the rules. Yes, it doesn't work like baseline Healing. It isn't supposed to.

[Chris Goodwin]

Regeneration isn't a build.

It is a build. It is specifically a build of Healing. When you build a Regeneration Power, you don't write down X BODY Regeneration. You write down Xd6 Healing with a large string of Modifiers.

My issue isn't whether or not Regeneration should have or could have been built differently. My issue is people ignoring the rules to claim that it somehow breaks the rules. It doesn't break the rules any more than any other section of rules breaks the rules. Yes, it doesn't work like baseline Healing. It isn't supposed to.

Then it should be a different Power.

Or it should take advantage of the rules that are already there for Healing (namely, the reset time Advantage).

But why require it to be built with Healing if it doesn't work like Healing? :confused:

[archermoo]

It is a build. It is specifically a build of Healing. When you build a Regeneration Power, you don't write down X BODY Regeneration. You write down Xd6 Healing with a large string of Modifiers.

No, it isn't. It is a set of optional rules that modifies how the Healing power works.

Then it should be a different Power.

Or it should take advantage of the rules that are already there for Healing (namely, the reset time Advantage).

Do you honestly not understand that the optional Regeneration rules modify how Healing works? Because it sounds like that is what you are saying. And if that is the case, then I'm not sure how much plainer it could be. The Regeneration section of the Healing rules includes rules changes. Changes that only apply to the Regeneration variant of Healing. Changes that modify how the Healing Power works WRT the Regeneration variant.

But why require it to be built with Healing if it doesn't work like Healing? :confused:

Because it does for the most part work like Healing. There are some changes to how it works, which are spelled out in the rules governing the optional Regeneration variant. I'm guessing that Steve decided that rather than reprint all of the rules and explanations that were the same between Healing and Regeneration for both Powers that it would make more sense to just include a section in the Healing Power outlining the changes needed to turn Healing into Regeneration.

[Chris Goodwin]

Do you honestly not understand that the optional Regeneration rules modify how Healing works? Because it sounds like that is what you are saying. And if that is the case, then I'm not sure how much plainer it could be. The Regeneration section of the Healing rules includes rules changes. Changes that only apply to the Regeneration variant of Healing. Changes that modify how the Healing Power works WRT the Regeneration variant.

I understand that that's how it works, and I understand that it works that way because Steve says it does. I don't think that there was a good reason to put Regeneration under Healing, and to just say that it works differently by fiat, especially because, again by fiat, it only works this particular way for BODY, and only for a Regeneration Power built to Regenerate only the self's BODY.

Because it does for the most part work like Healing.

There's several very specific ways in that it doesn't work like Healing:


Regeneration has no maximum
Regeneration always and only works on BODY
Regeneration always and only works on the self
Regeneration works no more than once per Turn


None of these are qualities possessed by Healing. It is specified that if you buy Healing with the latter three qualities as the appropriate Modifiers, you somehow get the first one. Why? Because Steve said so. There's no point cost for it.

You're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that affects anything other that BODY, and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works on someone else, and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works every Phase. There's no way to buy up the maximum of Healing [1]; in fact we're given numerous reasons why being able to buy up the Healing maximum is a bad idea. There are good reasons for all of these, admittedly, but if you have a good concept that would call for doing it otherwise? The answer is no, because Steve said so.

Regeneration is qualitatively better than Healing. Yet there's nowhere at all in the rules that it is possible to buy this qualitative difference. It applies to BODY, the self, and no faster than once per Turn, and specifically these and nothing else. You can't build Stun Regeneration. You can't build END Regeneration. You can't build any Power that grants a Regeneration ability to someone else (per a specific rules question I asked Steve a few months ago).

[1] Between 5e and 5er the way Healing worked was officially changed to have a "reset time". Regeneration is not built with this mechanic. Actually, by using the Advantage to reduce a Healing ability's reset time, you could build Stun Regeneration, or END Regeneration, or any number of other Regenerations, or Regeneration that works on other people -- except for BODY Regeneration, which must be built in this specific, exact way.

[archermoo]

I understand that that's how it works, and I understand that it works that way because Steve says it does. I don't think that there was a good reason to put Regeneration under Healing, and to just say that it works differently by fiat, especially because, again by fiat, it only works this particular way for BODY, and only for a Regeneration Power built to Regenerate only the self's BODY.

All rules in the system exist by fiat. Energy Blast does 1d6 per 5 Points by fiat. You need to roll 11- on 3d6 after modifications to hit your target by fiat. Combat Luck 3pd/3ed Hardened by fiat.

In a rules system there is no difference between "by fiat" and "by the rules". The rules are what they are because the person who wrote them decided they should be. That is true both for the rules you like as well as the rules you don't like.

Now whether it is a good idea or not is an entirely different issue. I tend to side with Doc Democracy in thinking that basing Regeneration on Recovery would be a better idea. But that doesn't make the current Regeneration somehow a violation of the rules. They are part of the rules, and no more or less valid than any other rule.

[Vulcan]

There's several very specific ways in that it doesn't work like Healing:


Regeneration has no maximum
Regeneration always and only works on BODY
Regeneration always and only works on the self
Regeneration works no more than once per Turn
None of these are qualities possessed by Healing. It is specified that if you buy Healing with the latter three qualities as the appropriate Modifiers, you somehow get the first one. Why? Because Steve said so. There's no point cost for it.

I agree with you so far, 5E Regen is a bit of a kludge. Not totally unusable, mind you, just a kludge.

You're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that affects anything other that BODY,

For good reason. Imagine Regen to END at 8 points per die. Total nightmare.

...and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works on someone else,

unless your GM lets you apply UBO

...and you're not allowed to buy a Regeneration that works every Phase.

Unless you buy Regen to equal your SPD and your GM allows you to pro-rate it.

There's no way to buy up the maximum of Healing [1];

There isn't? I thought it used the standard 1pt = +2 max AP rule for adjustment powers.

...in fact we're given numerous reasons why being able to buy up the Healing maximum is a bad idea. There are good reasons for all of these, admittedly, but if you have a good concept that would call for doing it otherwise? The answer is no, because Steve said so.

Unless the GM says yes.

Regeneration is qualitatively better than Healing. Yet there's nowhere at all in the rules that it is possible to buy this qualitative difference. It applies to BODY, the self, and no faster than once per Turn, and specifically these and nothing else. You can't build Stun Regeneration.

You want STUN Regeneration? :nonp: People already complain about how long combat takes!

You can't build END Regeneration.

You want END Regeneration!? http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/shock.gif Player: "I push again!" GM: "Aren't you running low on END yet?" Player: "Nope, I Regen 4d6 END per Turn on top of my REC, and it's phase 2" GM: <groans>

You can't build any Power that grants a Regeneration ability to someone else (per a specific rules question I asked Steve a few months ago).

Again, unless the GM thinks otherwise. Unlikely, sure, but possible.

[1] Between 5e and 5er the way Healing worked was officially changed to have a "reset time". Regeneration is not built with this mechanic. Actually, by using the Advantage to reduce a Healing ability's reset time, you could build Stun Regeneration, or END Regeneration, or any number of other Regenerations, or Regeneration that works on other people -- except for BODY Regeneration, which must be built in this specific, exact way.

Got me there.

[Tonio]

All rules in the system exist by fiat. Energy Blast does 1d6 per 5 Points by fiat. You need to roll 11- on 3d6 after modifications to hit your target by fiat. Combat Luck 3pd/3ed Hardened by fiat.

In a rules system there is no difference between "by fiat" and "by the rules". The rules are what they are because the person who wrote them decided they should be. That is true both for the rules you like as well as the rules you don't like.

I do think there's a difference between "EB costs 5ps per 1d6" and "Healing works like so, except when it's Regeneration". The former creates a rule where there was none, while the latter modifies an existing rule. From an extreme point of view, they're both "fiat", yes, but there are degrees of fiat (so to speak).

The reason, I think, Regeneration bothers a lot of people is the same reason why some people are bothered by the Armor vs FF deal (the one where you get free IPE from Armor, or no Limitation from Visible for FF, depending on PoV). When you buy Healing with this particular combination of options, you get something "free" (or at a reduced cost) out of it. The reason, I think, why the Regeneration issue comes up more often is that Armor and FF are split as two different Powers, while Regeneration is presented as an optional variant of Healing. I believe if Armor were presented as an optional variant of FF (when you buy 0 END and Persistent for your FF, you get a free IPE), people would bring the issue up more often.

[Chris Goodwin]

All rules in the system exist by fiat. Energy Blast does 1d6 per 5 Points by fiat. You need to roll 11- on 3d6 after modifications to hit your target by fiat. Combat Luck 3pd/3ed Hardened by fiat.

In a rules system there is no difference between "by fiat" and "by the rules". The rules are what they are because the person who wrote them decided they should be. That is true both for the rules you like as well as the rules you don't like.

Right. All of the fiat is at a lower, more fundamental level of the rules. Regeneration is a fiat at a level where it should be a Modifier.

Had it been this way from the beginning, we might not now be having this conversation -- but there was a conscious choice to fold Regeneration into Healing from 4e to 5e.


For good reason. Imagine Regen to END at 8 points per die. Total nightmare.

I can imagine someone having a valid concept that calls for them to Regenerate END. I'd look pretty closely at it as GM, but I wouldn't say no to the concept.

Unfortunately, the rules don't support the concept.


unless your GM lets you apply UBO

The GM can let you do anything he wants, but the rules are pretty firm. Nope, (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51421) nope, (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54017) and nope. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54030)

There isn't? I thought it used the standard 1pt = +2 max AP rule for adjustment powers.

It doesn't.

Unless the GM says yes.

Again, the GM can say yes to anything.

Again, unless the GM thinks otherwise. Unlikely, sure, but possible.

See nope, nope, and nope, above.

Regeneration works the way it does because that's how the rules define it.

Right. It doesn't work the way it does because you bought the Regeneration Modifier for your Healing; it works the way it does because that's how it works.

[Vulcan]

I think this discussion has gotten a bit far afield from the original question. Right now, we're debating how Regen should work, which is a discussion we really should be having in the 6E threads so Steve & Co can go over them.

I know Steve said he's not going back to the old rules on Regen. So let's come up with some new rules for Regen that work better.;)

[archermoo]

Right. All of the fiat is at a lower, more fundamental level of the rules. Regeneration is a fiat at a level where it should be a Modifier.

In your opinion. Your opinion isn't universal.

Had it been this way from the beginning, we might not now be having this conversation -- but there was a conscious choice to fold Regeneration into Healing from 4e to 5e.


First you say that it is at a level that should be handled by a Modifier, then you say that if it had be written as is from the beginning it would be okay.

[Chris Goodwin]

In your opinion. Your opinion isn't universal.

I never said otherwise. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

First you say that it is at a level that should be handled by a Modifier, then you say that if it had be written as is from the beginning it would be okay.

No, I said that we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Chris Goodwin]

I think this discussion has gotten a bit far afield from the original question. Right now, we're debating how Regen should work, which is a discussion we really should be having in the 6E threads so Steve & Co can go over them.

You are correct. We're not answering anybody's question any longer; we've staked out positions and are defending them.

[archermoo]

I never said otherwise. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Well you seemed to be making the claim that the Regeneration rules were somehow less valid than the other rules in the game. I don't see how that is the case. The opinions of the people who play the game don't really have much impact on the validity of any of the rules.

If you aren't making the claim that they are less valid (or "breaking" the rules as others have claimed) then there isn't really anything to talk about. You don't like the changes to Regeneration. No skin off my nose. I've only ever objected to people making claims about them not being valid rules.

No, I said that we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Very true. So if you didn't mean that it would be okay, then what did you mean by that statement? That you wouldn't object to them even if you didn't think they were okay?

[Chris Goodwin]

Well you seemed to be making the claim that the Regeneration rules were somehow less valid than the other rules in the game. I don't see how that is the case. The opinions of the people who play the game don't really have much impact on the validity of any of the rules.

If you aren't making the claim that they are less valid (or "breaking" the rules as others have claimed) then there isn't really anything to talk about. You don't like the changes to Regeneration. No skin off my nose. I've only ever objected to people making claims about them not being valid rules.

No. I'm saying there's not a mechanical basis for them.

Fiat is not a mechanic.

I could buy a Healing BODY Power with 0 END, Persistent, Self Only, and Extra Time Modifiers, and have a somewhat uselessly limited Healing Power. Or I could buy the same thing with some hypothetical, undefined Regeneration Modifier, and suddenly it's Regeneration. The only difference between these two Powers is that one is Regeneration and one is not.

What I want is to have this Regeneration Modifier defined in some way. If Regeneration must be built using Healing, I want there to be some mechanical difference applied to it to turn it from straight Healing, with all of its particulars, to Regeneration. To me, fiat does not do that, and, judging by the amount of bandwidth devoted to it over the years, I'm not the only one.

[schir1964]

Most of the debate is a result of philosophical difference as to the Definition Of A Mechanic.

I've created a thread that asks for people to give their viewpoint on that Definition.

If anyone is interested, I'd like to see those viewpoints.

Philosophical: Definition Of A Mechanic

Just Curious

- Christopher Mullins

[archermoo]

No. I'm saying there's not a mechanical basis for them.

Fiat is not a mechanic.

I could buy a Healing BODY Power with 0 END, Persistent, Self Only, and Extra Time Modifiers, and have a somewhat uselessly limited Healing Power. Or I could buy the same thing with some hypothetical, undefined Regeneration Modifier, and suddenly it's Regeneration. The only difference between these two Powers is that one is Regeneration and one is not.

What I want is to have this Regeneration Modifier defined in some way. If Regeneration must be built using Healing, I want there to be some mechanical difference applied to it to turn it from straight Healing, with all of its particulars, to Regeneration. To me, fiat does not do that, and, judging by the amount of bandwidth devoted to it over the years, I'm not the only one.

There is as much mechanical basis for the way that Regeneration works as there is for how the baseline Healing Power works. Both work how they do because there are rules defining how they work. The fact that you don't like that there are rules specific to Regeneration doesn't mean that they stop existing.

It sounds like what you don't like is powers having variants that are defined by rules rather than Modifiers. Is that an accurate assessment?

And yes, by defining a Healing based Power as Regeneration it changes how it works. That is in fact the point of having variants of Powers. If you are using that variant, it works differently than the base.

[Sean Waters]

Archermoo is right: the rules for regeneration are not the rules for healing. That leaves open the question, of course: why put regeneration in healing?

Oh, and Fiat are mechanics :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Energy Blast and Killing Attack are two separate Powers.

Would you be happier if Regeneration were a Talent built using (and modifying) the Healing rules, rather than a modification of the Healing rules? I'm just curious whether that alone would solve the problem.

Similarly, does it bother you to the same extent that Succor is listed as a variant of Aid, rather than a power in its own right? The two situations seem much the same - "here's a very different variant of the power but it's not really a separate power but it really is".

It's been mentioned that the Regeneration build should have used the Reset Time Modifier from Fantasy Hero and 5er, with some speculation as to why that wasn't done. I'm on record in the past (in this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40563)) stating that it should have been done this way.

I'll hold you to that...

I agree with you so far, 5E Regen is a bit of a kludge. Not totally unusable, mind you, just a kludge.

It was a kludge. Decreased re-use would un-kludge it.

For good reason. Imagine Regen to END at 8 points per die. Total nightmare.

Is it? The ability to recover 8 END could reasonably be purchased as +8 REC, does not recover STUN (-1), does not recover BOD (-1/4) for 7 points. And I could use it more than once a turn by taking extra recoveries.

STUN Regen would be less cost effective compared to REC, but would have the advantage of circumventing the inability to recover per turn at substantial negative STUN.

No. I'm saying there's not a mechanical basis for them.

Fiat is not a mechanic.

Sean said it first, and I can't say it better...

Oh, and Fiat are mechanics :D

What I want is to have this Regeneration Modifier defined in some way. If Regeneration must be built using Healing, I want there to be some mechanical difference applied to it to turn it from straight Healing, with all of its particulars, to Regeneration. To me, fiat does not do that, and, judging by the amount of bandwidth devoted to it over the years, I'm not the only one.

2 CP is 2/3 of 1d6 of standard effect, so I present - mechanically sound regeneration:

2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect (2 points) 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), reuse 1/turn (+1 1/2) AP [10 x 2/3 x 3.5 =] 23 Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 8

You want it usable to heal others? Persuade your GM to allow it without "self only". You want it to work slower? Drop the Reuse advantage and bump the Extra Time limitation. You want it per phase? Drop the Extra Time limitation and buy a higher reuse advantage. You want it to cost END? Dump O END, Persistent. You want it to heal STUN? Make it heal STUN. You want to regenerate everything? Add a +2 advantage "everything below starting maximum".

I'm not saying GM's will allow those builds- that's up to them. But mechanically, this now appears to follow all the rules. And rejection of powers that follow all the rules is within the GM's purview.

[archermoo]

Archermoo is right: the rules for regeneration are not the rules for healing. That leaves open the question, of course: why put regeneration in healing?

Oh, and Fiat are mechanics :D

That isn't what I said. What I said was that there are optional rules for Regeneration that modify the baseline Healing. So had you actually started with what I said, your question would've answered itself. Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

[CTaylor]

The Decreased Reuse modifier, while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.

Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

And by that logic, Multiform is a modification of transform. Except is isn't. You are continually arguing using a logical fallacy called "begging the question:" you assume the conclusion in your argument. Saying "it's that way because it is" isn't an argument. It's something the Sphinx would say.

[Hugh Neilson]

The Decreased Reuse modifier, while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.

Actually, it wouldn't. But it did not exist in 5e, making it tough to apply in 5e. To repeat:

2 CP is 2/3 of 1d6 of standard effect, so I present - mechanically sound regeneration:

2/3d6 Healing, Standard Effect (2 points) 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), reuse 1/turn (+1 1/2) AP [10 x 2/3 x 3.5 =] 23 Extra Time 1 turn (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 8

[archermoo]

The Decreased Reuse modifier, while logically applicable, would have increased the price significantly.

Obviously Regeneration was put in Healing because it is a modification of Healing.

And by that logic, Multiform is a modification of transform. Except is isn't. You are continually arguing using a logical