Soon I Will Be Invincible

[Susano]

I just finished reading this Tuesday.

All I can say is, if you haven't read it, do so.

And yes, I'm already mentally working out how to build some of the characters. Doctor Impossible would be easiest, since we learn so much about him... Fatale is harder, since there's a lot of blanks there. Damsel, Corefire, and Blackwolf are further down the scale. I know who they are modeled after, so that helps, but their exact abilities are sketchy. Pharaoh is just scary... how tough do you have to be to take a 16" shell and just laugh it off?

Anyway, don't expect to see much of anything till after GenCon... and even then I'm not sure when I'll be able to tackle some of the cast from Soon I Will Be Invincible.

[Kal'El Wayne]

Bought read and loved it a while ago then completely forgot to mention it. Great book. Little depressing for the genre, I thought.

By the way Susano. I've used your writeups for my many crossovers in my Champions games, but can't find the Charmed ones. Do you a) have any plans for them, and b) know where I can find them?

[Log-Man]

I just finished reading this Tuesday.

All I can say is, if you haven't read it, do so.

And yes, I'm already mentally working out how to build some of the characters...
It's about time! :nya: :D

[Susano]

Bought read and loved it a while ago then completely forgot to mention it. Great book. Little depressing for the genre, I thought.

By the way Susano. I've used your writeups for my many crossovers in my Champions games, but can't find the Charmed ones. Do you a) have any plans for them, and b) know where I can find them?

I found it to be like Watchmen, a semi-realistic take on a world inhabited by superhumans, who along with their super powers, have all too real super problems.

Charmed? Unless someone sent them to me (and I've misplaced them), I've never done any character sheets for Charmed (and never will, as I don't watch that show).

[steamteck]

How much like Watchmen? I was thinking of picking it up but I despise Watchmen with the fury of a 1000 raging suns. So should I not get it? The nihilistic world of Watchmen really got to me.

[NestorDRod]

I'd actually compare it more to a slightly (and I do mean slightly) less cheery version of Busiek's Astro City. The characters act and do things that fit within the genre, but we get to see glimpses of "real life" behind the glitter and spandex.

Definitely not nihilistic, so no worries there.

[Susano]

How much like Watchmen? I was thinking of picking it up but I despise Watchmen with the fury of a 1000 raging suns. So should I not get it? The nihilistic world of Watchmen really got to me.

It's not a nihilistic world, it's just one far removed from the golly-gee-whiz Silver Age. People, even superhumans, have real problems, real lives, and real side effects of their powers. It's akin to the Marvel Ultimate universe in some ways, but with less deaths. Still, as one of the supers puts it, they are living in the Iron Age, and she fully expects the Rust Age to follow.

[Susano]

In case anyone cares -- here's my mind at work pondering Doctor Impossible.

First, based on comments made by characters in the story, several people in the setting would have STUN-Only 75% Damage Reduction. As Proditor states in the chat "Some of the characters can shrug off 9d6 RKA AP EXplosions without taking appreciable STUN...." One could use an idea called "Fragile World", which I saw a long time ago in the Rogues Gallery APA -- which is anything done to a super is divided by 1/4, and anything a super hits has its defenses reduced by 1/4 (or something like that -- the idea was trying to replicate the London-wrecking fights of Miracle Man).

As for the good Doctor, here's some base comments on his abilities:

Strong enough to rip parking meters out of the ground.
Fighting skills from his time in Thailand.
Lots of points in Gadgets, Bases, Vehicles, and so on. A lot of robot followers.
SPD of only 4. My impression was one of low SPDs on the characters. Most of the people seemed to have human-average SPD. Unless they kicked in some sort of enhanced combat processor -- such as Fatale. Some people seem to have SPD that costs END -- they go into a combat mode where time slows down (i.e. SPD goes up).
He is fast however -- his DEX is above 20, and he has levels. Possible Overall Levels, since he has a --->
300 IQ (but a 30 INT?) I don't think so... he's not that fast of a thinker....
Tough enough to take a hit from Corefire (see my comment on Damage Reduction).

Corefire is Superman, so Impossible needs to be able to take a shot from Superman. He's not Lex Luthor, but more like Doctor Doom.

[gmurie]

It's a great book. Essentially, you're put inside of the heads of Fatale, the outsider/newbie to a Justice League type organization after it's Superman (called Corefire) has disappeared under mysterious circumstances. So you get to see what superpowered people are like with all their human foibles.

The more interesting character is Doctor Impossible, in effect Lex Luthor, and the book does a really good job of showing why a super genius mastermind would keep trying to take over the world after getting trashed by the super heroes over and over and over again. Getting inside the head of the evil genius is the books best feat. He's vile and horrible, and yet you feel sorry for the poor devil by the end of the book.

[Fedifensor]

I liked most of the book, but I thought the ending was a bit of a letdown. Maybe that was the point, but I wanted to see a bit more depth in the main character at the end.

[Balabanto]

The book is written by someone with a great deal of sympathy for Lois Lane and everyone like her, and that's where the novel's greatest strength is. However, it's also it's greatest weakness.

My instincts tell me that this book would have been better if I wasn't so picky, and that maybe I was looking for more out of it than I could get. Still, it's a great read.

[Susano]

I liked most of the book, but I thought the ending was a bit of a letdown. Maybe that was the point, but I wanted to see a bit more depth in the main character at the end.

In many ways, the ending was spot on for a comic or a comic inspired novel. The evil mastermind is beaten, but still manages to escape to bedevil the heroes again.

[Maelstrom]

Didn't care for the end, but I liked the rest of the book.

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, I read the book when it was released months ago and talked about it in some thread or another elsewhere on the forums at the time.

It's not as fresh in my mind as then, but from my perspective Dr. Impossible wasn't as smart as he claimed to be (notice that everything about him ultimately really derived from the evil genius of the previous era, whose name I no longer remember). Also, Dr. I is really the only truly sympathetic character in the book. Everyone else has at least one pretty unsympathetic characteristic, and some characters have many. However Dr. I is an unreliable witness; events as told by him don't always match up with how they are perceived by others. Ultimately Dr. I doesn't really want to take over the world or blow it up or any other such thing -- he really wants _recognition_ and _acceptance_ -- to be cool enough to be in the "in crowd", to be appreciated for his amazing intellect and accomplishments. That's why he never really pulls the trigger on anything and allows himself to be defeated.

[Killer Shrike]

As far as the book is concerned as a read, it was very funny and enjoyable for me. I didn't take it too seriously and appreciated it for what it was, a good homage / send up. And I agree that it is far more akin to Astro City than Watchmen.

[bubba smith]

It's not a nihilistic world, it's just one far removed from the golly-gee-whiz Silver Age. People, even superhumans, have real problems, real lives, and real side effects of their powers. It's akin to the Marvel Ultimate universe in some ways, but with less deaths. Still, as one of the supers puts it, they are living in the Iron Age, and she fully expects the Rust Age to follow.
thats ONE way to say it
btw i saw stats for the chamed ones in the"hero games goes to the movies[and tv thread someone else must have posted them

[bubba smith]

when is siwbi in paperback/

[Susano]

when is siwbi in paperback/

You can get it in a trade paperback format.

[proditor]

Good luck with the scaling (You're going to need it).

[Steve Long]

Read it, found it sort of "ehh." I don't regret the time spent on it, but it's not a book I'll ever go back and read again. It seemed to me the author had some hostility or skepticism toward the idea of costumed heroes and villains.

[Kirby]

So this isn't a Champions book from HERO Games then?

[bubba smith]

You can get it in a trade paperback format.
ok thanks

[pinecone]

I read it (it was recomended here some time ago) I liked it...but it just fell a little short...I did get the feeling that the author did not like superhero's or their world...

I liked the "likable" Dr. I. ...it made it feel like a tale told from his perspective. I would have liked a better understanding of transparent girl...after she got tired of playing wendy, what has she been up to? She turned into a real world weary merc somewhere...so whats up with that?

I got the feel the story did not know how to wrap up...as though it was originally envisaged as a two part or (heaven help us) trilogy...but the author got bored and ended it quick...

[Susano]

So this isn't a Champions book from HERO Games then?

No, it's not. But it has some nice ideas and character concepts in it, especially if you want to run an Iron Age game that doesn't look like something from Image or Valiant.

[Killer Shrike]

I read it (it was recomended here some time ago) I liked it...but it just fell a little short...I did get the feeling that the author did not like superhero's or their world...

I liked the "likable" Dr. I. ...it made it feel like a tale told from his perspective. I would have liked a better understanding of transparent girl...after she got tired of playing wendy, what has she been up to? She turned into a real world weary merc somewhere...so whats up with that?

I got the feel the story did not know how to wrap up...as though it was originally envisaged as a two part or (heaven help us) trilogy...but the author got bored and ended it quick...

Hmm...I found it to end quite well and in genre. I felt like the book did a good job of combining Silver Age and Iron Age shtick, introducing some underscoring of irony, but also tossing out some very comic-booky elements such as the ending. I found the authors approach to be nuanced, with some very subtle elements underlying the obvious surface level themes.

What I'd really like to see, in fact, is a TPB Graphic Novel of it with artwork done by A. Ross. That would be slick.

Was it the best book I've read in a year? No. Was it amusing and worthy of mention? Yes.

[Susano]

Hmm...I found it to end quite well and in genre. I felt like the book did a good job of combining Silver Age and Iron Age shtick, introducing some underscoring of irony, but also tossing out some very comic-booky elements such as the ending. I found the authors approach to be nuanced, with some very subtle elements underlying the obvious surface level themes.

What I'd really like to see, in fact, is a TPB Graphic Novel of it with artwork done by A. Ross. That would be slick.

Was it the best book I've read in a year? No. Was it amusing and worthy of mention? Yes.

Ooohh.... yes, Ross's realistic take on supers would fit perfectly with the book's style!

[Publius]

Actually, I read the book when it was released months ago and talked about it in some thread or another elsewhere on the forums at the time.

It's not as fresh in my mind as then, but from my perspective Dr. Impossible wasn't as smart as he claimed to be (notice that everything about him ultimately really derived from the evil genius of the previous era, whose name I no longer remember). Also, Dr. I is really the only truly sympathetic character in the book. Everyone else has at least one pretty unsympathetic characteristic, and some characters have many. However Dr. I is an unreliable witness; events as told by him don't always match up with how they are perceived by others. Ultimately Dr. I doesn't really want to take over the world or blow it up or any other such thing -- he really wants _recognition_ and _acceptance_ -- to be cool enough to be in the "in crowd", to be appreciated for his amazing intellect and accomplishments. That's why he never really pulls the trigger on anything and allows himself to be defeated.In a lot of ways your assessments are very much like mine about the doc. His being the sympathetic character and at the same time an unreliable narrator, but especially his mental state. You hit the nail on the head: Doctor Impossible does not really want to take over the world and I emphatically agree as to your view of his ultimate objective. In a way, I think his intellect actually hurts him here, he has created a web of rationalizations that refuse to allow him to see the obvious because of his ego. That sort of thing actually blindsides a lot of intelligent people. His comment on the end about re-thinking the whole situation is actually very hopeful, but I think that his bad habits are far too well ingrained and his cognitive dissonance will kick in eventually.

I wouldn't say he isn't as smart as he claims however. He demonstrates his intellect on multiple occasions: how much he can do with radio shack parts, how fast he brings his island online, etc. The fact that the plan he embarks on here (his 13th) is originally the Baron's is more hero worship than anything I feel. The fact that he needed some other gear just shows how he solved the problem he had read about so long ago using existing resources (the power supply he ultimately does build himself). Remember the circumstances: he conceived of all this in prison, not at the drawing board; he was operating under something of a time crunch; and this is his 13th time at conquering the world, he's already used up his own best plans and doesn't like to duplicate himself. In the end it comes down to two things: Doc's aforementioned hero worship of the Baron -- a Silver Age villain idolizing the Golden Age villain while facing off against Iron Age heroes -- and the fact that the story works better when it involves a series of egg-hunts rather than the Doc pontificating in his lab, plus it allows the author to connect him with the Baron and several of the other bad-guys (I mean the Supervillain Bar thing is almost painful, but unless he was searching out those components there would have been no reason for him to go there at all, and if he had all the time in the world she would have been better prepared thus less sympathetic).

[OddHat]

Side note: If you liked Soon I Will Be Invincible, I'd recommend getting copies of Temps and Euro-Temps by Alex Stewart and Neil Gainman. Think Wild-Cards with less internal continuity and much more of a sense of humor.

[penemue]

Temps was awesome.

[nexus]

How much like Watchmen? I was thinking of picking it up but I despise Watchmen with the fury of a 1000 raging suns. So should I not get it? The nihilistic world of Watchmen really got to me.

I'm finding the book itself enjoyable but after hearing from some others about how things progress I doubt I will finish it. I find the characters completely unlikable and apparently they don't get any better and, in fact, turn more into costumed bullies more than heroes. I don't demand that heroes be perfect, in fact, that's boring but when I find them actively unlikable (or very shallow like Fatale) its annoying. IMO the book has allot of the Rusty Iron trope 'Everyone is an ******* especially the alleged heroes" going on.

Like I said in another thread, I wouldn't make a call on the author's like or dislike of supers from this one book but I definitely understand how you could the impression he doesn't care much for supers or super worlds.

[nexus]

So what is the ending anyway?

[Clonus]

So what is the ending anyway?

Fatale learns that she was in fact one of Doctor Impossible's abandoned projects. The team tracks him down down to the island where he is prepared to launch his latest scheme. They're cocky, too accustomed to beating him and too little accustomed to working together, and he's ready for them, defeating them with the help of the Pharaoh's hammer that makes him "invincible". Corefire makes his dramatic reappearance, his death having simply been a comatose state not unlike Supermans, but Doctor Impossible beats him too. For a moment Doctor Impossible has everything in his grasp and is ready to plunge the world into an ice-age.

However, Doctor Impossible has used up the remaining power in the hammer (which was actually one of the magic artifacts from psuedo-Narnia), and so when Lily, his ex-girlfriend now member of the New Champiosn, reappears as well, he no longer has any cards left to play. She overpowers him, saving the world and revealing many minor mysteries such as her true identity as Corefire's Lois Lane, that Doctor Impossible's scheme has actually saved the world by using up the power in the hammer before it could wipe out humanity, and that it was Corefire's fault for damaging the hammer in the first place in a fight that happened just because he was showing off. Fatale, still embarassed by her failed attempt to seduce Blackwolf and her uselessness against her creator, decides to leave the team, but uses her super-strength to help Elphin return the hammer to the fairyland it came from.

[nexus]

Ah, so I was right about Fatale. It's pretty much what any Gm would do with a character background like that :) Thanks.

[OddHat]

Ah, so I was right about Fatale. It's pretty much what any Gm would do with a character background like that :) Thanks.

It's really very much a gamer's book. I don't really agree that the writer dislikes the genre; I'd say he likes it, but that his perception of "realistic" personalities is fairly dark (or that he chose to take that approach in this book). All of that said, I still enjoyed the story. I might even re-read it at some point.

[nexus]

It's really very much a gamer's book. I don't really agree that the writer dislikes the genre; I'd say he likes it, but that his perception of "realistic" differs from my own, and from my preferences in fiction.

Seems like a fair assessment. I'll reserve judgments until I see something else from him.

Edit: I'd still sigh if someone handed in a background like her's though. ;)

[OddHat]

Edit: I'd still sigh if someone handed in a background like her's though. ;)

Me too. Never was a fan of PCs without a convincing core heroic motivation. I don't object to passive origins for powers, ("I was just born this way", "I was rebuilt by a mad scientist", etc) but I like an active and well supported choice to use those powers for heroic adventuring.

[nexus]

Me too. Never was a fan of PCs without a convincing core heroic motivation. I don't object to passive origins for powers, ("I was just born this way", "I was rebuilt by a mad scientist", etc) but I like an active and well supported choice to use those powers for heroic adventuring.

Yeah, "I couldn't think of anything better to do" isn't really the engrossing even things like "glory hound" or "in it for the money" are better. The passive background combined with nearly complete amnesia just sounded like a bad (or more so lazy) PC background particularly as she seemed so blase about it. I'm glad something came of it in the novel.

[Psybolt]

I'm reading this currently, and everytime I read something from Dr. Impossible, I picture Dr. Horrible. I know they do not physically look the same, but my mind just makes that connection.

[Susano]

It's really very much a gamer's book. I don't really agree that the writer dislikes the genre; I'd say he likes it, but that his perception of "realistic" personalities is fairly dark (or that he chose to take that approach in this book). All of that said, I still enjoyed the story. I might even re-read it at some point.

It's like Watchman in the regard. Very few of the modern supers Alan Moore create for that book were all that idealistic in outlook.

[OddHat]

It's like Watchman in the regard. Very few of the modern supers Alan Moore create for that book were all that idealistic in outlook.

Yup. Rorschach and Ozymandius were really the most idealistic; one was very dark, and the other the villain. (Arguably Rorschach was more idealistic than Ozy, as Ozy was a bit hypocritical here and there).

On the other hand, Moore did a great job of showing you the motivations for each character, so long as your suspension of disbelief could take costumed adventurers and rare paranormal abilities in the first place.

[nexus]

I really wonder if I would enjoy Watchmen as much this time around.

[Psybolt]

I have now finished the book, and I have to say that I enjoyed it a great deal. I would not agree with the dissenters who claim the author didn't like super heroes or super villains. I saw nothing of that sort. I saw human characters who made mistakes and had flaws, but still were heroes. And Dr.Incredible was wonderful. His sections were both revealing and funny. I enjoyed Blackwulf a lot... obviously modeled afer Batman.

I'm not convinced by the ending, though I like leaving Incredible alive to plan again. Maybe to only thing that could have been more in genre was Dr. I appearing to have died, but actually just escaped.

On the whole, I enjoyed the book a great deal and I would recommend it to anyone.

[penemue]

There is a great interview with Austin Grossman here:
http://www.maximumfun.org/blog/2007/09/podcast-austin-grossman.html
It is obvious he loves the form of comics and superheroes in general.
I think his comments about the Super Hero genre being a Meta-Genre is very insightful. Well, it's been a while since I actually heard this interview so I THINK this is the one where he mentions it. Either way, it's a very enjoyable discussion on video games, the superhero genre, Superhero movies and life in general.

[Susano]

According to the author, Corefire is Superman, Blackwolf is Batman, and Damsel is Wonder Woman. I found the Corefire = Superman to be extremely obvious, with Blackwolf = Batman less so. I never did peg Damsel as Wonder Woman.

[OddHat]

According to the author, Corefire is Superman, Blackwolf is Batman, and Damsel is Wonder Woman. I found the Corefire = Superman to be extremely obvious, with Blackwolf = Batman less so. I never did peg Damsel as Wonder Woman.

Damsel was the fairy? I thought that was well done, with Damsel as the Modern Age WW and Susan of Narnia as the Silver / Golden Age version.

[Susano]

Damsel was the fairy? I thought that was well done, with Damsel as the Modern Age WW and Susan of Narnia as the Silver / Golden Age version.

No, Damsel is the human/alien powerhouse. Elphin was fairly paladin.

[OddHat]

No, Damsel is the human/alien powerhouse. Elphin was fairly paladin.

Then I misread it. Elphin was much more Wonder Woman than Damsel; Damsel reminded me of Supergirl.

[Psybolt]

As I said, I thought Blackwulf=Batman was clear as was CoreFire=Supes. Damsel as Wonder Woman was less so... though I can see it.

[Susano]

Then I misread it. Elphin was much more Wonder Woman than Damsel; Damsel reminded me of Supergirl.

True. He was thinking of the founding of the Justice League when he had them create the Champions.

[nexus]

I have now finished the book, and I have to say that I enjoyed it a great deal. I would not agree with the dissenters who claim the author didn't like super heroes or super villains. I saw nothing of that sort. I saw human characters who made mistakes and had flaws, but still were heroes. And Dr.Incredible was wonderful. His sections were both revealing and funny. I enjoyed Blackwulf a lot... obviously modeled afer Batman.


I'm not going to make a call on the author's opinions on the genre from one book but I can see easily how you can get that impression from how he handled superheroes in this book. I just didn't care for the way he wrote their personalities and their actions in the parts I read and Dr. Impossible was presented as too much of an obvious author/reader sympathy "anti-hero".



I'm not convinced by the ending, though I like leaving Incredible alive to plan again. Maybe to only thing that could have been more in genre was Dr. I appearing to have died, but actually just escaped.

On the whole, I enjoyed the book a great deal and I would recommend it to anyone.

I'd suggest spoiler blocking some of your comment just in case. The thread isn't explicitly marked as containing spoilers.

[Clonus]

Then I misread it. Elphin was much more Wonder Woman than Damsel; Damsel reminded me of Supergirl.

Damsel's mom was an alien monarch who visited Earth during the Golden Age (Hyppolyta-equivalent).

[Susano]

I'm not going to make a call on the author's opinions on the genre from one book but I can see easily how you can get that impression from how he handled superheroes in this book. I just didn't care for the way he wrote their personalities and their actions in the parts I read and Dr. Impossible was presented as too much of an obvious author/reader sympathy "anti-hero".



I'd suggest spoiler blocking some of your comment just in case. The thread isn't explicitly marked as containing spoilers.

Didn't think of it when I first posted.

[nexus]

Didn't think of it when I first posted.

I can certainly understand that and common sense should probably tell anyone that the likelihood of spoilers is high in a thread like this. I just thought poster should be careful again putting up spoilers just in case.

[nexus]

I caught Corefire and Blackwolf as Superman/Batman homages (and I was hoping Corefire wouldn't turn out to be a d**k) but I admit I didn't mane many other connections.

[Flames]

That scene at the end had me chuckling, where Dr. Impossible... ...reveals himself to CoreFire dramatically, finally letting the captured hero know who it was who has been his nemesis all these years, and CoreFire just shrugs, having no recollection of the man under the mask. :D

[Weldun]

That scene at the end had me chuckling, where Dr. Impossible... ...reveals himself to CoreFire dramatically, finally letting the captured hero know who it was who has been his nemesis all these years, and CoreFire just shrugs, having no recollection of the man under the mask. :D"For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."not really, but it gives the gist.

[lemming]

Another enjoyable book.

Picked up Devil's Cape, Soon I will be Invincible, and Superpowers. Finished the first two very quickly. Both excellent. Will probably start Superpowers later this week.

[Manic Typist]

Yeah... on the spoilers bit:

I'm currently reading Watchmen for the first time. Good thing I already had a hunch on who the villain turns out to be...otherwise I'd be annoyed right now, based on a comment on the previous page.

[nexus]

Can you can realistically get upset about Watchmen "spoilers" at this point? It's 20 years old and heavily discussed in many comic circles.

[Manic Typist]

And yet....I've never heard anything of the plot, and I do not travel in comics circles.

I'm 21.

;)

[nexus]

Still, you can't really expect people to maintain the "secrets" from things over two decades in case someone that hasn't read or seen them might happen on them. I mean what is the statute of limitations?

Can you say what Rosebud is without spoiler tags or who Luke's father is? :)

Edit: This board counts as "comic circles"

[pinecone]

Another enjoyable book.

Picked up Devil's Cape, Soon I will be Invincible, and Superpowers. Finished the first two very quickly. Both excellent. Will probably start Superpowers later this week.

Cool! I just found Devil's Cape in the library computer. I'm looking foward to it arriving....

[Weldun]

What, nobody is going to mention Super-Folks?

[Susano]

What is "Devil's Cape"?

[lemming]

What is "Devil's Cape"?

A book by Rob Rogers. . There's a thread even Devil's Cape (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64564)

Read it. You'll enjoy it and make some characters.

[steamteck]

What, nobody is going to mention Super-Folks?

Wow! A blast from the past. I wonder where Indigo is these days.

[tribe]

What is "Devil's Cape"?

A most excellent book. Cries out for a sequel... Rob, tell us you are working on the next book.

Seriously, 'Devil's Cape' has been my favourite read this year. :thumbup:

[bubba smith]

What, nobody is going to mention Super-Folks?
whats that?

[Manic Typist]

Can you say what Rosebud is without spoiler tags or who Luke's father is? :)

Edit: This board counts as "comic circles"

Who's Rosebud?

And there's a fair point there. While I don't know if those comparisons are accurate (since I think it's fair to say that Star Wars is much more culturally ever-present than Watchmen), I do agree that at a certain point, certain cultural icons become "fair game."

However, it's also true that there are people out there who were born after the popularity/publicity of something (such as Star Wars and Watchmen) have faded, and it's not unreasonable of us to point out potential spoilage. When I first saw Star Wars, I think rereleased in theatres, I honestly thought it was the first time it had come out. So I went home, all excited, to tell my parents about this cool new movie!

[nexus]

Who's Rosebud?


It was a reference to Citizen Kane.



And there's a fair point there. While I don't know if those comparisons are accurate (since I think it's fair to say that Star Wars is much more culturally ever-present than Watchmen), I do agree that at a certain point, certain cultural icons become "fair game."

However, it's also true that there are people out there who were born after the popularity/publicity of something (such as Star Wars and Watchmen) have faded, and it's not unreasonable of us to point out potential spoilage. When I first saw Star Wars, I think rereleased in theatres, I honestly thought it was the first time it had come out. So I went home, all excited, to tell my parents about this cool new movie!

I have to disagree. It is unreasonable to expect people to think in terms of spoilers for things that have been around for decades because someone that wasn't born at the time might not have seem them. Watchmen isn't as wide spread culturally as Star Wars outside of comic book circles, which this board is in part. In comic circles, it's fairly well known, at least in general details. Some I've met that have never read it know the general particulars of the story including the "spoiler" in this thread.

Basically you'd have to spoiler tag everything ever because there will always been someone, somewhere that might not have seen it or read it yet even though it's all but common knowledge for the majority of those in interest.Things existed before you (and I) were born or interested. Sometimes you'll find out about them particularly if you move in circles that discuss them. It happens. And I don't think its the fault of the people discussing for not taking into hypothetical people that hadn't seem material years or decades old.

[Susano]

So... I shouldn't mention the end of King Kong? Or the Passion of the Christ? Or Titanic?

[pinecone]

I'm half way through "Devil's cape" and it's verry good so far...two thumbs up! Four if you are Grond!

[Psybolt]

So... I shouldn't mention the end of King Kong? Or the Passion of the Christ? Or Titanic?


Why? What happened?????:eek:

[Susano]

Why? What happened?????:eek:

You died, she died, everyone died.

[bubba smith]

don't worry gang a little redneck necromancy and everybody'll be back in action

[Psybolt]

You died, she died, everyone died.

sob:weep:

[nexus]

So... I shouldn't mention the end of King Kong? Or the Passion of the Christ? Or Titanic?


Why? What happened?????:eek:


You died, she died, everyone died.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q35/sgribbin/i-have-seen-the-end.jpg

[Weldun]

Must spread rep, yadda yadda. Someone hit nexus for me, I'm having enough trouble keeping track of what I owe jkwleisemann!

[Karmakaze]

So... I shouldn't mention the end of King Kong? Or the Passion of the Christ? Or Titanic?

This sort of conversation always reminds me of the "ultimate spoiler", recited by a friend who was in line for Troy. They were discussing the Trojan horse and someone in line complained that they were ruining the surprise of the movie.

Spoilers for The Lord of the Rings, Charlotte's Web, and... the Bible:
Frodo lives; Charlotte dies; Jesus does both!

[pinecone]

You died, she died, everyone died.

" The boat sank..."

[Log-Man]

You died, she died, everyone died.
"That's my locnar, b....! Gimme back my locnar!"

[rjcurrie]

It was a reference to Citizen Kane.

And here I thought you were referring to the episdoe of the Dick Van Dyke show where Rob and Laura were explaining to little Richie where his middle name of Rosebud came from. And like several Dick Van Dyke episodes, it was mainly told in flashback. And of course, obviously inspired by Citizen Kane.

IIRC, it was created from the initials of possible names (that either they wanted or other people wanted.

Hmmm, then again maybe I should have labeled that as a spoiler. :D

[nexus]

And here I thought you were referring to the episdoe of the Dick Van Dyke show where Rob and Laura were explaining to little Richie where his middle name of Rosebud came from. And like several Dick Van Dyke episodes, it was mainly told in flashback. And of course, obviously inspired by Citizen Kane.

IIRC, it was created from the initials of possible names (that either they wanted or other people wanted.

Hmmm, then again maybe I should have labeled that as a spoiler. :D

Yeah, thanks fer nothin'

:D

[nexus]

Back to the book (sorta)

Did it strike anyone as odd that no one, main character or setting to to take it as odd that Lily was completely naked all the time? I know she's translucent to the point of being almost invisible but still... :) Of course maybe I just haven't gotten to it yet.

Partially joking but then again people have complained about statues have bared breasts, "nude" Barbies being on display and woman breastfeeding in public despite nothing being overly exposed....

[Susano]

No different than Girl One walking around naked all of the time.

[Weldun]

No different than Girl One walking around naked all of the time.Beat me to it.

[nexus]

No different than Girl One walking around naked all of the time.

Well, I've never heard of her but if she did so in the equivalent of the modern western world and no one ever commented on it and it was never even mentioned as being an issue, I'd find it a little funny too considering how uptight people are about nudity. It's not a major slam on the book, just struck me as odd. How does the fact that another writer had a character do it and cause no reaction in vaguely similar work of fiction justify or explain either incidence?

[Weldun]

Well, I've never heard of her but if she did so in the equivalent of the modern western world and no one ever commented on it and it was never even mentioned as being an issue, I'd find it a little funny too considering how uptight people are about nudity. It's not a major slam on the book, just struck me as odd.:nonp: You haven't read Top 10?

Actually, she commented on when she found out that the Sarge was colour blind, and therefore couldn't see the various patterns that she covered her skin with. So, she decked him.

[Susano]

Beat me to it.

[nexus]

:nonp: You haven't read Top 10?


Nope. Heard a little about it, didn't sound like my cup of tea. I remember it's something about "super cops" or something.



Actually, she commented on when she found out that the Sarge was colour blind, and therefore couldn't see the various patterns that she covered her skin with. So, she decked him.

This largely means nothing to me (I know nothing about the characters and that interaction and background) be aside from seeming to paint "Girl One" as something of a jerk. She hit someone for looking at her because she chooses to walk around naked?

and as I said, I don't see how the existence of "Girl One" makes the non reaction to Lily less odd (or the apparently non reaction to Girl One).

[Weldun]

Beat me to it.:lol:

[Weldun]

The point is that Girl One doesn't look naked. And given the translucency that Lily is described as having, I doubt she often registers as *naked* to people's perceptions. We recognise things by association. If it doesn't resemble previous encounters with nakedness, then people wouldn't recognise it as nakedness.

As an example, Tweety bird used to be featherless, but people complained that he was naked. And yet Porky Pig had spent several years wearing no pants without comment.

[Susano]

Nope. Heard a little about it, didn't sound like my cup of tea. I remember it's something about "super cops" or something.



This largely means nothing to me (I know nothing about the characters and that interaction and background) be aside from seeming to paint "Girl One" as something of a jerk. She hit someone for looking at her because she chooses to walk around naked?

and as I said, I don't see how the existence of "Girl One" makes the non reaction to Lily less odd (or the apparently non reaction to Girl One).

Yes, it's a comic series about police officers in a city where everyone is a costumed/powered individual. It's very good. Anyway, Girl One wears only her skin patterns, and slugs Sgt. Caesar for not telling her he could tell she was nude (since he only sees in B&W). Caesar tells he he doesn't matter, he's only turned on by girl dogs... then tells someone else he's lying (and they both chuckle over Sgt. Caesar being a 'sly old dog').

In my character sheet for Girl One I comment on that improbability that no one would notice Girl One being nude, but chalk it up to comic book physics.

[nexus]

The point is that Girl One doesn't look naked. And given the translucency that Lily is described as having, I doubt she often registers as *naked* to people's perceptions. We recognize things by association. If it doesn't resemble previous encounters with nakedness, then people wouldn't recognize it as nakedness.

As an example, Tweety bird used to be featherless, but people complained that he was naked. And yet Porky Pig had spent several years wearing no pants without comment.

Actually there have been complaints about pantsless cartoon characters but that a side point. There's a difference between an animated drawing a pig (or other animal) and a "real" anatomically correct (I assume) woman standing there that you can see. People register body paint that you can't tell isn't clothing at first glance as "naked".

Or even if they didn't notice, the idea would eventually get around and cause something of a stir. Nudity is a big hang up in allot of Western culture. You already have people complaining that superheroes (or mostly heroines) wear to little or about beings like Silver Surfer (Ultimate Phoenix) that are covered in some sort of skin tight energy fields or coatings

If Girl One can smooth out her nipples and make certain other features vanish (or never bends over and keeps her legs close together at all times not to mention landscapes or is naturally uh.. anime) I don't know.

In any event, it just struck me as kind of odd not intolerable.

[nexus]

Yes, it's a comic series about police officers in a city where everyone is a costumed/powered individual. It's very good. Anyway, Girl One wears only her skin patterns, and slugs Sgt. Caesar for not telling her he could tell she was nude (since he only sees in B&W). Caesar tells he he doesn't matter, he's only turned on by girl dogs... then tells someone else he's lying (and they both chuckle over Sgt. Caesar being a 'sly old dog').

In my character sheet for Girl One I comment on that improbability that no one would notice Girl One being nude, but chalk it up to comic book physics.

Seems a bit...touchy to hit someone over their anatomy and your choice to reveal your own. I take it she's has kind of a short fuse?

[Susano]

Seems a bit...touchy to hit someone over their anatomy and your choice to reveal your own. I take it she's has kind of a short fuse?

Not really. I think she was really annoyed about Caesar ogling her and knowing her 'secret'. Her 'costume' was apparently pretty fool proof otherwise as no one else knew.

[nexus]

Not really. I think she was really annoyed about Caesar ogling her and knowing her 'secret'. Her 'costume' was apparently pretty fool proof otherwise as no one else knew.

I suppose. Comic book physics as you say.

Why doesn't she just wear clothes?

[Susano]

I suppose. Comic book physics as you say.

Why doesn't she just wear clothes?

She was an artificial human and didn't really need to.

[nexus]

She was an artificial human and didn't really need to.

But she has enough of a sense of modesty to get mad to strike someone about being ogled (and that someone knew she was naked) and to try to conceal the fact she nude?

[Susano]

But she has enough of a sense of modesty to get mad to strike someone about being ogled and to try to conceal the fact she naked?

Just try reading the series, okay?

[nexus]

Just try reading the series, okay?

Uh yeah, sorry to bug you. But it doesn't make much sense from where I sit now. As for Top 10 doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy.

Edit: Besides, I wasn't to bring up "Girl One" in the first place like it explained or excused Lily.

[OddHat]

Top 10 was sort of hit or miss for me. It's Moore at his silliest, in places brilliantly funny, in places surprisingly touching, and in places so annoying I briefly considered throwing out the TPBs. Still, the good outweighed the bad to the point that I bought all of the books, which is more than I can say for most series.

The world's "Origin Story" was the point that most annoyed me; sure, I get the joke, it's just not funny.

[nexus]

Top 10 was sort of hit or miss for me. It's Moore at his silliest, in places brilliantly funny, in places surprisingly touching, and in places so annoying I briefly considered throwing out the TPBs. Still, the good outweighed the bad to the point that I bought all of the books, which is more than I can say for most series.


That was it for me, Most of what I've read out sounded incredibly, well, goofy.



The world's "Origin Story" was the point that most annoyed me; sure, I get the joke, it's just not funny.

Mind if I ask what it was?

[OddHat]

That was it for me, Most of what I've read out sounded incredibly, well, goofy.



Mind if I ask what it was?

No problem. Earth (and presumably all of the many alternate dimensions) could no longer tolerate their "exceptional" people (superheroes and villains, masked adventurers, boy adventurers, talking animals, ghosts, demons, etc) after World War II, and so all of them were shipped off to one city, where they couldn't disturb normal people any further. It's the same origin he used for the asylum in Avalon; a meta-giggle at what happened to UK and American comic strips, pulps and comics after WWII. I like a little meta-commentary now and then, if the internal logic holds up, but that annoyed me. OK, it's a joke, fine; it also makes the personalities of the characters into jokes, and the world they're in into a joke. It moved the story from tongue in cheek satire to farce, especially as it was presented in a book with otherwise serious themes, and killed my interest in the series.

[Susano]

No problem. Earth (and presumably all of the many alternate dimensions) could no longer tolerate their "exceptional" people (superheroes and villains, masked adventurers, boy adventurers, talking animals, ghosts, demons, etc) after World War II, and so all of them were shipped off to one city, where they couldn't disturb normal people any further. It's the same origin he used for the asylum in Avalon; a meta-giggle at what happened to UK and American comic strips, pulps and comics after WWII. I like a little meta-commentary now and then, if the internal logic holds up, but that annoyed me. OK, it's a joke, fine; it also makes the personalities of the characters into jokes, and the world they're in into a joke. It moved the story from tongue in cheek satire to farce, especially as it was presented in a book with otherwise serious themes, and killed my interest in the series.

Hmm... I never picked up on that, so it never bothered me that much.

[OddHat]

Hmm... I never picked up on that, so it never bothered me that much.

It was in The 49ers (if I have the title right). Shame, as I was really enjoying the series up to there. As it stands, I list that graphic novel as an "Imaginary Story" and hang on to the fun I got out of the rest of them. ;)

[Log-Man]

Back to the book (sorta)

Did it strike anyone as odd that no one, main character or setting to to take it as odd that Lily was completely naked all the time? I know she's translucent to the point of being almost invisible but still... :) Of course maybe I just haven't gotten to it yet.

Partially joking but then again people have complained about statues have bared breasts, "nude" Barbies being on display and woman breastfeeding in public despite nothing being overly exposed....
I just figured that there wasn't enough visible to really be sure. And IIRC it wasn't common knowledge that she was actually naked.

[nexus]

No problem. I like a little meta-commentary now and then, if the internal logic holds up, but that annoyed me. OK, it's a joke, fine; it also makes the personalities of the characters into jokes, and the world they're in into a joke. It moved the story from tongue in cheek satire to farce, especially as it was presented in a book with otherwise serious themes, and killed my interest in the series.

Yeah, I can understand that. Thank you though. I guess that answers the question about "Girl One" The series is intended to humorous.

[nexus]

I just figured that there wasn't enough visible to really be sure. And IIRC it wasn't common knowledge that she was actually naked.

Seemed like it was fairly well known particularly by the superpowered sect. Eh, not really that big a deal compared to the issues I have with the book.

[Clonus]

It was in The 49ers (if I have the title right). Shame, as I was really enjoying the series up to there. As it stands, I list that graphic novel as an "Imaginary Story" and hang on to the fun I got out of the rest of them. ;)

The thing is, mentioning that all the weirdos got shipped off to this reservation under those circumstances happened in the series proper, so calling the 49ers an imaginary story doesn't really solve the problem. The only new revelation is that they also exiled Mary Worth and her ilk.

As for Girl One I'm not sure she was anatomically complete. She was annoyed with Caesar not because he saw past her tatoos because he never mentioned it. To which he should have responded, "What tatoos?"

As for Lily, if you can't really see any details, what's the diff?

[nexus]

As for Girl One I'm not sure she was anatomically complete. She was annoyed with Caesar not because he saw past her tattoos because he never mentioned it.


If she wasn't anatomically correct and didn't care about being why did it make her mad enough to strike him because he didn't mention off hand? Did he lie to her about being able to see them or something?



As for Lily, if you can't really see any details, what's the diff?

I believe you can see details on her body if you're close enough (IIRC, sometimes her facial expression are mentioned). She's not perfectly invisible and reactions about "morality" topics aren't always logical. See the examples about cartoon characters, suggestions of nudity or even animal nudity. On US TV you have to censor animal sex organs and there was on particularly strange moment in a medical show. The patient was undergoing sex change surgery and his chest was not obscured until one moment when it was inflated enough to be considered a "breast" where it was suddenly censored which is why I asked if Girl One was known for having short temper or if there was some thing more to it. Seems like it was meant for laugh though which explains it well enough.

[nexus]

Again getting back to the book. Writing these characters up seems like a bit of chore since you don't get many hard facts about many of them. They mostly seemed to be rated against each other.