Handcuffs on a budget

[JmOz]

Okay Dark Champions presents a write up for handcuffs that is 67 active points, however I want to see if we could build some for somewhat less, let's say 30 active points and 15 real points, let's see what hero can come up with...

[Vulcan]

Handcuffs may be 67 active, but only cost 9 real for one set (1 rec. charge). 8 sets cost 14 points (8 REC charges, -0 limitation on charges). Not that bad a deal.

Not cheap, but then you get what you pay for.

[Hugh Neilson]

This, to me, is a classic example of where the AP measure falls flat on its face. I'm not a big fan of AP caps at the best of times, and this is an area where I would allow a general AP cap to be overridden for the specific power.

That said, if my goal were to reduce the AP of the Entangle, I'd be inclined to start by buying it with higher defenses and lower BOD (NOT a "1 BOD entangle" limitation). Really, should the BOD and defense be equal? The material is strong, but there's limited material connecting the wrists.

I'd also consider going with those "plastic ties" that, while hard to pull apart, are quite vulnerable to sharp objects.

Finally, I suspect much of the problem with handcuffs as presently constructed is avoided if you buy them directly, and not through a framework, an issue shared by many high AP, low RP powers.

[schir1964]

Okay Dark Champions presents a write up for handcuffs that is 67 active points, however I want to see if we could build some for somewhat less, let's say 30 active points and 15 real points, let's see what hero can come up with...
Why not build them with STR (as a Power) with the following:
Grab Only
Extra Time
Independent
Set Effect (Optional)

You can build the Handcuffs to hold Normal Humans or Creatures at various levels.

Just A Thought

- Christopher Mullins

[JmOz]

Just had a really odd start of an idea, what about Change enviroment, limited to only vs one person, with a penalty to lockpicking as the base ability...

[prestidigitator]

Bah! Unless some hero came up with some kind of wacky handcuff shooter or something, I'd most likely call (normal) handcuffs "part of the environment" (or "Everyman" equipment), even in a superhero game. Yeah, I'd let Spiderman walk around with a few sets of handcuffs stuck in his spandex for free if he really wanted them; much good as it would do him.

Handcuffs are not used in normal combat. You might be able to sneak a pair onto a villain in a scuffle, but you could shove his head behind a vending machine too if you went about it right, and no sane GM would require you to buy the vending machine squeeze as a custom Entangle to be able to do it.

(I know, I know. Party pooper and all that. :p)

[JmOz]

Bah! Unless some hero came up with some kind of wacky handcuff shooter or something, I'd most likely call (normal) handcuffs "part of the environment" (or "Everyman" equipment), even in a superhero game. Yeah, I'd let Spiderman walk around with a few sets of handcuffs stuck in his spandex for free if he really wanted them; much good as it would do him.

Handcuffs are not used in normal combat. You might be able to sneak a pair onto a villain in a scuffle, but you could shove his head behind a vending machine too if you went about it right, and no sane GM would require you to buy the vending machine squeeze as a custom Entangle to be able to do it.

(I know, I know. Party pooper and all that. :p)

In play that is often how I handle things, but at times it is fun for me to see different builds, this is more a intelectual exercise than something of game use.

[Sean Waters]

Gracious, they got it into 67 active points? Did they use entangle?

Handcuffs: 135 active, 19 real
Telekinesis (30 STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Half Phase Action to reset, Two activation conditions apply simultaneously; Can be opened with a key (changes state of TK without ending power) or locked with a gesture; +1/2) (135 Active Points); Independent (-2), Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only to attack a limb to another limb or other object; -1 1/2), OAF (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Can only be used on one person at a time (self lockout); -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4)

[Vulcan]

Dark Chamions p261

Handcuffs: Entangle 3d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY), 6 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks (+1/2) (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Set Effect (hands only, -1), Does Not Prevent Use Of Accessable Foci (-1), No Range (-1/2) Must Follow Grab Or Target Must Be Willing (-1/2), 1 Recoverable Charge (-1&1/4) Can Be Escaped Automatically With Modifed Lockpicking Or Contortionist Roll (-1/2). Total cost: 9 points.

There is one limitation they forgot, now that I look at it. Handcuffs don't reduce your DCV to zero like a normal entangle would. Is that part of what's covered by Set Effect (hands only)?

[Maur]

Hey, what about putting them on someone's ankle???

[Vulcan]

If you want your handcuffs to do that, I would guess you should take Set Effect (hands, -1) to Set Effect (hands or feet, -1/2).

[ghost-angel]

Dark Chamions p261

Handcuffs: Entangle 3d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY), 6 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks (+1/2) (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Set Effect (hands only, -1), Does Not Prevent Use Of Accessable Foci (-1), No Range (-1/2) Must Follow Grab Or Target Must Be Willing (-1/2), 1 Recoverable Charge (-1&1/4) Can Be Escaped Automatically With Modifed Lockpicking Or Contortionist Roll (-1/2). Total cost: 9 points.

There is one limitation they forgot, now that I look at it. Handcuffs don't reduce your DCV to zero like a normal entangle would. Is that part of what's covered by Set Effect (hands only)?

Yes, by Limiting the Entangle to a pair of Limbs you remove the 0 DCV aspect of Entangle. Which is why it's a -1 Limitation.

[ghost-angel]

If you really want 30AP or so, I would simply make it 2D6/3DEF or 3D6/2DEF, whichever you prefer, with the Takes No Damage Advantage that's 31AP.

[Beast]

the killer is having to take no damage from all attacks
other wise it is only 45 pts active
typically you see no more that 2 sets on any officer since each would need it's own holder on the policeman's belt
these zip tie cuffs could easily fit in 1 cuff holster and it take just 1 body from a KA to remove them


Zip tie cuffs: Entangle 3d6, 6 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), Conditional Power Power does not work in Very Common Circumstances (Target must be over powered or non resisting; -1), Set Effect (Hands Only/Feet Only) (-1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), 6 Charges (-3/4), Entangle Has 1 BODY (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Nonresistant DEF (-1/4), Real Weapon (requires to be preped before going out or triple time to use; -1/4)

[Sean Waters]

OK, if you are building zip-ties then arguably an entangle is fine because they are not re-useable - you generally cut them off.

However, handcuffs you can put on, take off, reuse generally, open and close as you will.

To build handcuffs I don't think that entangle will do. Not at all :)

Here's a thought though, complete aside. You buy an entangle which is, say, 6 DEF, 6 BODY and you suppress it so that it is only 2 DEF, 2 BODY. If you break out with an 6 Body attack, is the entangle GONE? Or, when you turn the suppress off does the entangle return with 4 DEF and 4 BODY, albeit with you not in it.....?

I know it doesn't matter, but it is interesting.

[Vulcan]

The DC handcuff build is bought with recoverable charges with the FX that to recover a charge you need to release the person you currently have entangled. And if they break out of the entangle, they've obviously broken the hancuffs and they can't be recovered.

[ghost-angel]

Sean,
Why... can't Entagle be reused if in a Focus? I'm not getting your logic.

[CrosshairCollie]

Sean,
Why... can't Entagle be reused if in a Focus? I'm not getting your logic.

I think it's the ability to remove the Entangle easily (the key) and re-use it which makes it a little weird, but I think making it a Recoverable charge covers that nicely.

[Bloodstone]

I wonder what Martial Grab with appropriate advantages and limitations would come out as...

[ghost-angel]

I wonder what Martial Grab with appropriate advantages and limitations would come out as...

Weird, unless you're willing to accept that eithe your handcuffs have a different STR every attempt to escape or state that they roll Grab STR once at the start and that's their STR until removed or escaped from.

[Sean Waters]

I think it's the ability to remove the Entangle easily (the key) and re-use it which makes it a little weird, but I think making it a Recoverable charge covers that nicely.

Good thinking, but I'm not convinced. That is precicely my point - you can't turn entangle off. Even with a recoverable charge that simple gives you the ability to use entangle again, it does not remove the effects of using entangle previously any more than buying arrows as a reuseable charge takes away the damage you caused when you pull the out of an enemy.

Entangle is a useful ability but one of its limitations (from certain perspectives) is that once the ability is used, the result is beyond your control.

[Sean Waters]

Weird, unless you're willing to accept that eithe your handcuffs have a different STR every attempt to escape or state that they roll Grab STR once at the start and that's their STR until removed or escaped from.

You could assume standard effect, but I'm not quite sure how the martial grab works here. To maintain the grab you'd need some sort of ranged extra limbs...hmmm...

[Utech]

To maintain the grab you'd need some sort of ranged extra limbs...hmmm...

Here it's been staring us in the face: Handcuffs must be built as automatons that are capable only of grabbing and releasing. :D

[Sean Waters]

Here it's been staring us in the face: Handcuffs must be built as automatons that are capable only of grabbing and releasing. :D

**slaps forehead**

**thinks about it**

**slaps Utech's forehead**

The line between genius and insanity is an ephemeral and inconstant thing indeed...

[JmOz]

Here it's been staring us in the face: Handcuffs must be built as automatons that are capable only of grabbing and releasing. :D

I actualy thought about this for a minute after you said it...don't do that to me

[ghost-angel]

Good thinking, but I'm not convinced. That is precicely my point - you can't turn entangle off. Even with a recoverable charge that simple gives you the ability to use entangle again, it does not remove the effects of using entangle previously any more than buying arrows as a reuseable charge takes away the damage you caused when you pull the out of an enemy.

Entangle is a useful ability but one of its limitations (from certain perspectives) is that once the ability is used, the result is beyond your control.

while you can't turn an Entalge Off in the Mechanical sense, the section on Removing An Entangle leaves if completely in the hands of SFX and Common Sense.

Which probably drives you nuts.

[Sean Waters]

while you can't turn an Entalge Off in the Mechanical sense, the section on Removing An Entangle leaves if completely in the hands of SFX and Common Sense.

Which probably drives you nuts.

No, you're thinking of the steering wheel sticking out of my flies.











Da-dum chssss!

Seriously though, it does. Why should one sfx be more useful than another*? If it is then there should be some sort of differentiation in the cost, a 5 point adder or a +1/4, maybe.



*Or, alternatively, why should the GM be burdened with coming up with problems for that sfx to balance things out?

[JmOz]

No, you're thinking of the steering wheel sticking out of my flies.











Da-dum chssss!

Seriously though, it does. Why should one sfx be more useful than another*? If it is then there should be some sort of differentiation in the cost, a 5 point adder or a +1/4, maybe.



*Or, alternatively, why should the GM be burdened with coming up with problems for that sfx to balance things out?

I have always allowed my entangling heroes to (at their discretion) carry a canceling agent (A chemicle or counter spell or key, what ever) with the understanding that if they do then it leaves the entangle vulnerable to someone doing something similar (In example lockpicking a lock, or a enemy wizard can cancel it)

[JmOz]

Back to the main idea, any other ideas on how to handle it...

[Sean Waters]

I have always allowed my entangling heroes to (at their discretion) carry a canceling agent (A chemicle or counter spell or key, what ever) with the understanding that if they do then it leaves the entangle vulnerable to someone doing something similar (In example lockpicking a lock, or a enemy wizard can cancel it)

I like that: if you can switch it off, so can anyone else with the right equipment. That balances nicely and makes perfect sense. Excellent.

[Sean Waters]

Back to the main idea, any other ideas on how to handle it...

The TK build got kinda ignored. It is one way it could be done. Another might be with transform (naturally) - character to character with hands attached together, physical manifestation. That is probably well worth ignoring, as are the following ideas using EDM...I transport you to a worls identical to this one, but in which you are wearing handcuffs...

Can I also mention that cuffs are often built now to assist you in controlling the person who is cuffed (maybe +STR useable to grab and hold) and discourage struggling because it hurts (difficult - perhaps a small NND triggered by struggling?)?

There. I mentioned it.

[Vulcan]

Good thinking, but I'm not convinced. That is precicely my point - you can't turn entangle off. Even with a recoverable charge that simple gives you the ability to use entangle again, it does not remove the effects of using entangle previously any more than buying arrows as a reuseable charge takes away the damage you caused when you pull the out of an enemy.

Entangle is a useful ability but one of its limitations (from certain perspectives) is that once the ability is used, the result is beyond your control.

Put a side effect on it. 'Entangle disappears when charge is recovered, always occurs.' Personally, I think of it as a minor point, especially since you loose the charge entirely (for a while) if the entangle gets broken. And the little detail that even another -1 limitation will only remove another point or two from the cost at most.

Go with it as a minor point owing to SFX, in my opinion.

[CrosshairCollie]

I like that: if you can switch it off, so can anyone else with the right equipment. That balances nicely and makes perfect sense. Excellent.

This might even warrant a limitation, depending on the game: "Can be instantly removed with a successful Lockpicking check," and we assume that the key that fits the cuffs is a functional automatic lockpicking success.

[casualplayer]

Extra Limbs Only for establishing/maintaining Grab, Physical Manifestation or Focus (to give the cuffs a BODY and DEF, and allow it to travel independently,) paired with some Penalty Skill Levels for STR Rolls, Contortionist and Escape Artistry. Just a thought.

[Maur]

This might even warrant a limitation, depending on the game: "Can be instantly removed with a successful Lockpicking check," and we assume that the key that fits the cuffs is a functional automatic lockpicking success.

Handcuffs: Entangle 3d6 (standard eff ect: 3 BODY), 6 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks (+½) (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), Cannot Form Barriers (-¼), Set Eff ect (hands only; -1), Does Not Prevent Use Of Accessible Foci (-1), No Range (-½), Must Follow Grab Or Target Must Be Willing (-½), 1 Recoverable Charge (-1¼), Can Be Escaped Automatically With Modified Lockpicking Or Contortionist Roll (-½). Total cost: 9 points.


From the build in DC...

[ghost-angel]

I kind of assumed that if the creator of the Power had the means to remove the Entangle then anyone else did too.

It makes sense that anyone with a Handcuff Key, a knife for Zip Ties, a heat lamp for a block of ice, etc, can undo the entangle. . .

[JmOz]

Okay Dark Champions presents a write up for handcuffs that is 67 active points, however I want to see if we could build some for somewhat less, let's say 30 active points and 15 real points, let's see what hero can come up with...

To refocus from the first post

[Sean Waters]

Put a side effect on it. 'Entangle disappears when charge is recovered, always occurs.' Personally, I think of it as a minor point, especially since you loose the charge entirely (for a while) if the entangle gets broken. And the little detail that even another -1 limitation will only remove another point or two from the cost at most.

Go with it as a minor point owing to SFX, in my opinion.

Are you insane*? Give a limitation value to an advantage? YOU

CAN

NOT

TURN

OFF

THE

EFFECTS

OF

A

POWER

WITH

AN

INSTANT

DURATION.

It is not an ongoing power, you do not have control over it, and there is nothing - nothing (apart from that common sense thing which, for very good reasons, I implicitly distrust) in the rules that allows kind of shennanigan. I say again - would you see the ability to remove damge you have caused as an advantage (or, call me old fashioned, but it seems to be the trend at present a LIMITATION!)?

OK, so I ge a bit picky about the rules, even when the rule maker says you can modify them. Fine, you can modify them but let us not take the mick (or should that be mic?). Even when applying 'common sense' we have to stay grounded.

NOW, one more thing I have to cover: THIS IS NOT MEANT AS ANY KIND OF PERSONAL ATTACK. It is just that some of my (many) buttons have been pressed and I feel the need (and it is a need) to stand firm in the path of, well, whatever it is I'm in the path of.




*Rhetorical. I do not assume you are actually insane, and nor do I assume that you would admit it if you were. I'm using this rather dramatic opening gambit for emphasis. Personally I doubt that you are insane.

[ghost-angel]

In all seriousness - your end goal is to "Immobilize Two Limbs" on a "Target Character"

You really have two Mechanics that do this Hero: Grab, Entangle.

Both of which have been suggested.

The only other option I can think of Mechanically is Transform: Into Target with Unmovable Limbs.

But that starts to simulate Engtangle.

[Sean Waters]

Can cancel the effects of the power: +1/4

Anyone else can cancel the effects of the power -0 to -2 (depending on how easy it is).

IMO (probably lonely) opinion, that is we ought to to treat advantages and limitations seperately, incorporating both if that is what we want, but making it clear that is what we have done.

[casualplayer]

Maybe the thing that is really expensive in points is the key to the handcuffs. Whataya think? Dispel, Suppress or Transform: Locked handcuffs into unlocked ones? :D

[JmOz]

I want to thank everyone who has helped in this thread, I appreciate all of the comments to this point. Looking outside of the box can be helpful sometimes, and this thread has helped me see some things. I do think I will play around with a Change Enviroment, concentrating on the penalty to lockpicking aspect of handcuffs, not sure where it will end up, but again I thank you all

[Sean Waters]

Maybe the thing that is really expensive in points is the key to the handcuffs. Whataya think? Dispel, Suppress or Transform: Locked handcuffs into unlocked ones? :D

:nya:

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were referring to building a HERO fork.

I get carried away on the passion of the moment sometimes. Ignore me.

[Vulcan]

Are you insane*? Give a limitation value to an advantage? YOU CAN NOT TURN OFF THE EFFECTS OF A POWER WITH
AN INSTANT DURATION.

...:nonp: Dude, there's no need to shout.

Besides, I don't see it.

What's wrong with having an entangle go away? Sure, it's an instant power, and that means (in a theoretical sense) that the use of the power has ended. However, unlike a lot of other instant powers, this one has a continuing physical manifestation that exists independantly of the use of the power.

Recovering the charge doesn't mean the power is undone. If I have a bow and 4 arrows bought as recoverable charges and I shoot one of them, recovering the arrow doesn't mean the damage goes away.

So, in light of that, what's wrong with having the entangle go away based on the FX of 'I go over and unlock the cuffs' ? That is actually more limiting than what is usual for a continuing charge (not a lot more, possibly not even worth taking a limitation over, but still, it doesn't warrant your... enthusiasm).

It is not an ongoing power, you do not have control over it, and there is nothing - nothing (apart from that common sense thing which, for very good reasons, I implicitly distrust) in the rules that allows kind of shennanigan. I say again - would you see the ability to remove damge you have caused as an advantage (or, call me old fashioned, but it seems to be the trend at present a LIMITATION!)?

Now I need a separate power to recover my charges? So what, should I buy the handcuff key as a 23d6 Dispel Entangle, Standard Effect, Only works on Handcuffs? So how would that work if the entangled person had power defense? Or the person who slapped the handcuffs on - does the Handcuff Key need to be NND to cover that (defense would be not being handcuffs, I guess)?

And incidentally, that whole mechanic wouldn't work anyway because, as you pointed out, the power is instant. So the Entangle power is no longer present to Dispel (or Drain, or Supress, for that matter).

So I guess the Handcuff Key becomes a 2d6 Drain Body, Standard Effect, NND (Defense is not being handcuffs), 0 END (50 Active) Only vs. Handcuffs (Which really isn't a limitation because of the NND), OAF (Key, -1)... I can't think of any other limitations that would be appropriate. So it costs 25 points to be able to release someone from the handcuffs I put on them so I can recover my recoverable charge - for a power that only cost me 9 points in the first place.

Does anyone else find this whole line of reasoning ludicrous? It's a freaking pair of handcuffs! We all know what they are, what they do, what they look like, how they're supposed to work... Yeesh. It's not that big a deal to make this much fuss over.

OK, so I ge a bit picky about the rules, even when the rule maker says you can modify them. Fine, you can modify them but let us not take the mick (or should that be mic?). Even when applying 'common sense' we have to stay grounded.

NOW, one more thing I have to cover: THIS IS NOT MEANT AS ANY KIND OF PERSONAL ATTACK. It is just that some of my (many) buttons have been pressed and I feel the need (and it is a need) to stand firm in the path of, well, whatever it is I'm in the path of.

*Rhetorical. I do not assume you are actually insane, and nor do I assume that you would admit it if you were. I'm using this rather dramatic opening gambit for emphasis. Personally I doubt that you are insane.

Unsane, perhaps. After all, I play a lot of RPG's.

And the Marines did turn me down back in '89, just after I took the psych evaluation. http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/think.gif Hmmm....

[Vulcan]

To refocus from the first post

You'd be stuck with 2d6 Entangle, DEF 2, Takes No Damage for 30 points. Hardly worth the 3-4 points you'd spend.

[JmOz]

I GOT IT, All we had to do was go back to the real basics, what do hand cuffs do?

They hold two objects together (IE two hands normaly, but sometimes a hand to a chair, or what have you)


What about...CLINGING UAA

Thinking about it some...

[Vulcan]

...It could work.

But why would handcuffs put on you by joe cop be harder to get out of than handcuffs put on you by the Thing? (Since Clinging STR is based off of the STR of the character.)

[JmOz]

You'd be stuck with 2d6 Entangle, DEF 2, Takes No Damage for 30 points. Hardly worth the 3-4 points you'd spend.

Which is where the problem comes in, and why I am looking at alternate builds. This is a piece of pretty basic equipment for a UT Belt, but if you don't want a fairly large active points total for your MP, you are stuck sticking it outside of the MP, where you will pay more that its usefulness really indicates (as it is a after the battle bit that only has minor relivance most of the time) but is more relavent than I am confortable with a hand wave on...

[JmOz]

...It could work.

But why would handcuffs put on you by joe cop be harder to get out of than handcuffs put on you by the Thing? (Since Clinging STR is based off of the STR of the character.)

Easily handled with a custom lim (Str Max 30 for instance)

[JmOz]

I just came up with a version I like, and as this is post 50, here it is

Handcuffs: +20 STR, Uncontrolled (+1/2) (30 Active Points); 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only for purposes of Grabs/holds (-1/2), Max Strength of 30 (-1/4), OIF (-1/2)

OK, By the book you can add normal damage up to the base value of the power (20 points), with the lim of Max Strength so Str 30, Uncontroled allows the user to walk away, charges brings the power down to 0 endurance.

I think this is the best that can be expected. the uncontrolled is broken by either a key, damage to 6 def 2 body, lockpicking roll (-4) or by "Breaking the hold". This power uses the standard effect rules, so is considered to be 6 body for the strength vs strength contest.

Toughts?

[JmOz]

deleted for mispost

[Vulcan]

I just came up with a version I like, and as this is post 50, here it is

Handcuffs: +20 STR, Uncontrolled (+1/2) (30 Active Points); 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only for purposes of Grabs/holds (-1/2), Max Strength of 30 (-1/4), OIF (-1/2)

OK, By the book you can add normal damage up to the base value of the power (20 points), with the lim of Max Strength so Str 30, Uncontroled allows the user to walk away, charges brings the power down to 0 endurance.

I think this is the best that can be expected. the uncontrolled is broken by either a key, damage to 6 def 2 body, lockpicking roll (-4) or by "Breaking the hold". This power uses the standard effect rules, so is considered to be 6 body for the strength vs strength contest.

Toughts?

If it works for you and your GM, go for it.;)

[CrosshairCollie]

Doesn't Uncontrolled and non-continuing charges get weird? A non-continuing charge only lasts for one phase, does putting Uncontrolled on it change that?

[JmOz]

Doesn't Uncontrolled and non-continuing charges get weird? A non-continuing charge only lasts for one phase, does putting Uncontrolled on it change that?

In brief, yes it does I beleive

[JmOz]

More I think about it, maybe not...interesting question, humm, got to research more, interesting...sorry for posting before so quick without thought behind it, must research more...interesting...

[schir1964]

I just came up with a version I like, and as this is post 50, here it is

Handcuffs: +20 STR, Uncontrolled (+1/2) (30 Active Points); 4 Recoverable Charges (-1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only for purposes of Grabs/holds (-1/2), Max Strength of 30 (-1/4), OIF (-1/2)

OK, By the book you can add normal damage up to the base value of the power (20 points), with the lim of Max Strength so Str 30, Uncontroled allows the user to walk away, charges brings the power down to 0 endurance.

I think this is the best that can be expected. the uncontrolled is broken by either a key, damage to 6 def 2 body, lockpicking roll (-4) or by "Breaking the hold". This power uses the standard effect rules, so is considered to be 6 body for the strength vs strength contest.

Toughts?
I would have used Independent instead of OIF, but this is pretty much what I was suggesting at the beginning. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[JmOz]

Why not build them with STR (as a Power) with the following:
Grab Only
Extra Time
Independent
Set Effect (Optional)

You can build the Handcuffs to hold Normal Humans or Creatures at various levels.

Just A Thought

- Christopher Mullins

I would have used Independent instead of OIF, but this is pretty much what I was suggesting at the beginning. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

So you did, so you did, let me hit you with the rep stick.

HOwever I don't see independent, why should I loose points if I loose my handcuffs?

[schir1964]

So you did, so you did, let me hit you with the rep stick.

However I don't see independent, why should I loose points if I loose my handcuffs?
Actually, Independent is a mechanic that is hard to implement by the GM in games where Equipment isn't free.

Therefore....

I think that in games where everything is paid for with points a new optional system of rules need to be enforced.

First, the Money Perk system must be applied to everyone (regardless of level).


A character who doesn't generate average income does not have access to mundane equipment without paying character points.
A character who generates normal income has access to mundane equipment that can be purchased the local store without paying character points. Campaign time must be spent obtaining such equipment.
A character who generates above normal income has access to mundane equipment that can be purchased at specialty stores or can try bribery to access mundane restricted equipment without paying character points. Campaign time must be spent obtaining such equipment.


Second, other types perks may allow access to mundane restricted equipment without paying character points. Campaign time must be spent obtaining such equipment.

Thus, Handcuffs are built as a Power with all the limitations and so forth, including Independent. Another descriptor is added to the build (Mundane Equipment). This makes this power available to any who has access to this equipment in the Campaign.

Those who have Disadvantages, or Lack the appropriate Perks, can not get this Equipment without paying character points.

Those who have the appropriate Perk (or other criteria set up by the GM), can get this equipment without having to pay character points, just the time to obtain and carry that equipment with them.

But this is a more comprehensive solution to Independent Items in general.

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

...:nonp: Dude, there's no need to shout. There is, you've been flashed.

...Besides, I don't see it. ...and it covered a lot of senses.

...What's wrong with having an entangle go away? Sure, it's an instant power, and that means (in a theoretical sense) that the use of the power has ended. However, unlike a lot of other instant powers, this one has a continuing physical manifestation that exists independantly of the use of the power.

Gaping wounds are a continuing physical manifestation of a damaging power that exist independently of the use of the power, but suggesting you can make those go away will get you looked at askance.


...Recovering the charge doesn't mean the power is undone. If I have a bow and 4 arrows bought as recoverable charges and I shoot one of them, recovering the arrow doesn't mean the damage goes away. ...and recovering the entangle does not meant hat the entangle goes away.

...So, in light of that, what's wrong with having the entangle go away based on the FX of 'I go over and unlock the cuffs' ? That is actually more limiting than what is usual for a continuing charge (not a lot more, possibly not even worth taking a limitation over, but still, it doesn't warrant your... enthusiasm).

I can get enthusiastic, can't I? Sometimes overly so...



...Now I need a separate power to recover my charges? So what, should I buy the handcuff key as a 23d6 Dispel Entangle, Standard Effect, Only works on Handcuffs? So how would that work if the entangled person had power defense? Or the person who slapped the handcuffs on - does the Handcuff Key need to be NND to cover that (defense would be not being handcuffs, I guess)?

No, you need a seperate power to undo the effects of your charges where those effects are normally not within your control.

...And incidentally, that whole mechanic wouldn't work anyway because, as you pointed out, the power is instant. So the Entangle power is no longer present to Dispel (or Drain, or Supress, for that matter).

...but I'm not suggesting you need a dispel, - you need something that either transforms the entangle into something else, temporarily, then something that allows you to transform it back, possibly with a different target.

...So I guess the Handcuff Key becomes a 2d6 Drain Body, Standard Effect, NND (Defense is not being handcuffs), 0 END (50 Active) Only vs. Handcuffs (Which really isn't a limitation because of the NND), OAF (Key, -1)... I can't think of any other limitations that would be appropriate. So it costs 25 points to be able to release someone from the handcuffs I put on them so I can recover my recoverable charge - for a power that only cost me 9 points in the first place.

Er...

...Does anyone else find this whole line of reasoning ludicrous? It's a freaking pair of handcuffs! We all know what they are, what they do, what they look like, how they're supposed to work... Yeesh. It's not that big a deal to make this much fuss over.

It is, indeed, a pair of freaking handcuffs, but entangle is not the way to go, which is why it all seems a bit silly. Entangle works IF (sorry - shouting again) you ignore the way that this and every related power works. Now call me old fashioned, but I don't even care that Mr Long thinks it is OK to break the rules this way. If the rules need breaking to make a simple, common sfx work then the rules need looking at, and I'm not talking about lists of exceptions - we need to look at what we want entangle , or a similar power, to do - if it is instant, that is what it is, if it is not, we should not be describing it that way.[/quote]


...Unsane, perhaps. After all, I play a lot of RPG's.

And the Marines did turn me down back in '89, just after I took the psych evaluation. http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/think.gif Hmmm....

Sanity is over rated. OCD is the way forward **twitch**:ugly:

[Vulcan]

Eh. It just strikes me as silly to obsess about the exact rules mechanics of entangle over a pair of handcuffs. It wouldn't even be an issue for a character with a 45 STR, he could just go over there and tear the entangle off. Or with a 45 AP attack power he could use that to blow it off. And given that most campaigns have at least a 45 AP limit, what difference does it make? If it makes you feel better, I can house-rule that removing the handcuffs takes an attack action...

Oooh! I've got it: 45 STR (standard effect); OAF (Key, -1), Only to 'break' handcuff-based entangle (-2), 1 Recoverable charge (-1&1/4). 8 points! And since it is technically a full-phase action (since you're breaking them out exactly), that takes your attack action to perform. Simple.:rolleyes:

[Sean Waters]

Eh. It just strikes me as silly to obsess about the exact rules mechanics of entangle over a pair of handcuffs. It wouldn't even be an issue for a character with a 45 STR, he could just go over there and tear the entangle off. Or with a 45 AP attack power he could use that to blow it off. And given that most campaigns have at least a 45 AP limit, what difference does it make? If it makes you feel better, I can house-rule that removing the handcuffs takes an attack action...

Oooh! I've got it: 45 STR (standard effect); OAF (Key, -1), Only to 'break' handcuff-based entangle (-2), 1 Recoverable charge (-1&1/4). 8 points! And since it is technically a full-phase action (since you're breaking them out exactly), that takes your attack action to perform. Simple.:rolleyes:

I prefer to think that, rather than obsessing over the exact rules mechanics for handcuffs (Player: can my character have some handcuffs? Me: Sure!), I'm obsessing over the principles behind the building of handcuffs with the Hero System.

I don't think that is silly, because a really good understanding of how powers work (and using examples like 'handcuffs' is an excellent way to work out how to apply the system) expands your understanding of the system as a whole. That's why I get into these discussions, or we might as well answer every post with, "Well, it's up to the GM, isn't it? He can make something up."

When I'm GMing, that's what I do - I make stuff up on the fly, probably not even worrying about what power I'm using - it depends what is going to happen to the handcuffs - generally someone is going to try and break them, so we just assign a STR or a DEF and BODY and go for it. However, if I've had a discussion like this I'm far more likely to apply the stuff I make up consistently with the actual rules.

[casualplayer]

Questions posted here point out flaws and obtuseness in the rules, hopefully leading to the improvement of our beloved HERO System.

[Sean Waters]

So mote it be.







(I have no idea what that means)

[Maur]

So mote it be.







(I have no idea what that means)so be it; amen; - a phrase in some rituals, as that of the Freemasons.

[schir1964]

So mote it be.(I have no idea what that means)
I know what a mote is, I just can't figure out your context for using it.

- Christopher Mullins

[Tonio]

I know what a mote is, I just can't figure out your context for using it.

- Christopher Mullins

Archaic. "Must", "may", "might", etc... "So mote it be", as Maur points out, roughly "May it be so" or "so must it be", akin to the hebrew "amen", or the pastafarian "rAmen".

[Sean Waters]

I know this: it winds people up if you end every sentence with those words.

So mote it be!

[Sean Waters]

With a big nod in the direction of Presdidigitator and Schir1964, I reckon this works:

Handcuffs: 45 active, 10 real

+30 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Independent (-2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to attach a limb to another limb or object; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Destroyed if defeated in a STR v STR contest; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Once set can only be be removed with a lockpick roll or key; -1/2)

The 45 AP gives them a DEF of 9, if you use the same rules as 'focus'. That feels about right for hard steel, but not much of it. I suppose technically you could use focus too, but I'm not sure it works well here.

Independent is nice in that it completely divorces them from the person owning them - and they still work if, for instance, that person dies. 10 points might seem a lot to potentially have to lose forever but, as a GM I would have no problem treating this as an easily replaceable point loss - you just go get another set of cuffs. If you are not happy with independent, make it OAF. That ups the cost to 13 active. Still within OP parameters, pretty much.

[schir1964]

...Independent is nice in that it completely divorces them from the person owning them - and they still work if, for instance, that person dies. 10 points might seem a lot to potentially have to lose forever but, as a GM I would have no problem treating this as an easily replaceable point loss - you just go get another set of cuffs. If you are not happy with independent, make it OAF. That ups the cost to 13 active. Still within OP parameters, pretty much.
Well, one of the nice things about Independent, is that there is nothing preventing the player from having the character take the time and effort to recover the power in question, thus regaining those points.

- Christopher Mullins (8^D)

[schir1964]

Alternate build (based on Sean Waters and JmOz components).

Handcuffs [20 STR: 50 Active Points / 9 Real Points]

Zero Endurance (+1/2)
Persistent (+1/2) (Required for Uncontrolled portion of the power)
Uncontrolled (+1/2) (Power is turned off by unlocking Handcuffs with the key or other method)
Independent (-2) (Power is external to character and anyone can use it)
No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)
Hold Only (-1) (May Not Grab Under Own Volition Or Add STR)
Only Vs Two Appropriate Sized Limbs/Objects And Required Distance (-1/2)
Real Object: Power Breaks On Failed STR vs STR Contest or Enough Body Damage (-1/2)

Using the doubling rule (+5 Points = x2):

8 Sets Of Handcuffs [20 STR: 88 Active Points (50 Active Points Per Set) / 16 Real Points]

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Alternate build (based on Sean Waters and JmOz components).

Handcuffs [20 STR: 50 Active Points / 9 Real Points]


Zero Endurance (+1/2)
Persistent (+1/2)
Uncontrolled (+1/2)
Independent (-2)
No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

Hold Only (-1) (May Not Grab Under Own Volition Or Add STR)

Only Vs Two Appropriate Sized Limbs/Objects (-1/2)
Real Object - Power Breaks On Failed STR vs STR Contest (-1/2)


Using the doubling rule (+5 Points = x2):

8 Sets Of Handcuffs [20 STR: 88 Active Points (50 Active Points Per Set) / 16 Real Points]

- Christopher Mullins

Nice.

I don't think you need uncontrolled as independent does most of the stuff it is good for, and whilst I'm generally against limitations also being advantages, there comes a time when you just have to bow your head and accept the inevitble.

:D

Also I think the doubling adds on after everything, so shouldn't add as part of the base cost. I could be wrong.

[schir1964]

I don't think you need uncontrolled as independent does most of the stuff it is good for, and whilst I'm generally against limitations also being advantages, there comes a time when you just have to bow your head and accept the inevitable.
This is where the vagueness of Independent creates a problem. I've always read Independent as making the power external to the character (or the power doesn't come from the character), thus allowing any character to use the power. However, I don't think this implies a focus or object of any sort but it does have the universal definition component thereof (but I could be wrong).

Addendum (lost focus on the statement made):
Uncontrolled vs Independent - Uncontrolled seems by application to mean that once the character uses a power, it continues operating under its own volition doing whatever it is designed to do. I don't see this as overlapping what Independent does. But again, I can't verify the specifics of this until I can get access to my book.

Also I think the doubling adds on after everything, so shouldn't add as part of the base cost. I could be wrong.
Not sure and I don't have the book handy. Just playing it safe though.

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Updated post above.

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

So my next question is: WHY are we using Str instead of the power that is designed to do this (Entangle)? Because Entangle is too expensive? Should we then be asking if Entangle is overcosted? Should the cost of Entangle be based on some kind of modified Str? Maybe with Body or a freaky End or Ablative type part thrown in and the base Str Linked to it so when the flaky part goes down it all crumbles? :doi::hush:

[schir1964]

Post Removed.

I realized that Prestidigitator's question wasn't directed at me but JmOz.

I'll let him respond.

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

LOL. I'm not sure my question was really directed at anyone. I think you give me more credit than I am due. ;)

[JmOz]

So my next question is: WHY are we using Str instead of the power that is designed to do this (Entangle)? Because Entangle is too expensive? Should we then be asking if Entangle is overcosted? Should the cost of Entangle be based on some kind of modified Str? Maybe with Body or a freaky End or Ablative type part thrown in and the base Str Linked to it so when the flaky part goes down it all crumbles? :doi::hush:

Personaly for me it is not so much the cost of Entangle but the way heavily limited powers work in MP (Or in another way of saying it is that the Active Points but not the real points are out of whack for this effect). something I have already petitioned in the 6th edition forums.

Also this started as an intelectual exersice in building the effect so that it can fit in a (what I consider) standard 30 point MP, plus I like to play with what you can do on limited points (The whole can you destroy the world on 2 points type of thing). As a GM I look at the game effect of any ability to decide on wether or not it is abusive, so while I might allow this kind of build for a intended after combat tie up the bad guy type of power (If I even made the character pay for it), I would have a problem with using it for a more combat useful ability...

[Sean Waters]

So my next question is: WHY are we using Str instead of the power that is designed to do this (Entangle)? Because Entangle is too expensive? Should we then be asking if Entangle is overcosted? Should the cost of Entangle be based on some kind of modified Str? Maybe with Body or a freaky End or Ablative type part thrown in and the base Str Linked to it so when the flaky part goes down it all crumbles? :doi::hush:

Well I don't think entangle is designed to do this. I think it was designed to do spiderman webs way back in the 1980s and has not changed much since. I think it is a couple of powers (at least) crammed together because it is simulating a package of abilities (spiderman webs) and I think we are still using it in the original form because of inertia.

And STR just works better. It divorces the force you use to break free from a damage calculation. It is far more finely tuneable, if that is important to you, and it doesn't create an effect you need a special rule or a handwave to turn on and off. I don't care if the rules do say this is OK based on SFX, it contradicts the principles of instant effect powers, and that rings an alarm bell to me - it is something that needs changing.

Just to clarify I was not suggesting the handcuff build would add to base strength - it is completely independent strength you can use to attach two things together. using base strength would give very odd results - the stronger the person snapping the cuffs on, the more effective they are. That is daft.

[Utech]

A touch of insomnia led me to actually plonk a few numbers into Hero Designer. Is it utter madness? You tell me...

I built an automaton with the following Characteristics:Body 3
PD 3
ED 3
SPD 1
All else at 0
Total: -131 pointsThis Skill:
+3 with DCV (to reflect their small size)
Total: 15 points

These Powers:
Damage Resistance (3/3)
+45 STR at 0 END
47 points worth of Life Support to reflect being an inanimate object
takes no STUN (loses abilities if takes BODY)
Total: 168 points

These Disadvantages:
Physical Limitation: Nothing but a pair of handcuffs. Capable only of grabbing and releasing.
Physical Limitation: Lacks all sense organs
Physical Limitation: Utterly under the command of the person who has the key. (worth zero points)
Total: 50 points

Although the automaton handcuffs cost a mere 52 points and have 50 points worth of Disadvantages, it seems unlikely that any GM would allow them to be taken as a 2 Base Points Follower. Let's go with 50 Base Points.

Buy these Handcuffs (actually an Automaton) as a Follower for 10 points. Or, if you prefer, Summon them.

[Maur]

Although the automaton handcuffs cost a mere 52 points and have 50 points worth of Disadvantages, it seems unlikely that any GM would allow them to be taken as a 2 Base Points Follower. Let's go with 50 Base Points.

Buy these Handcuffs (actually an Automaton) as a Follower for 10 points. Or, if you prefer, Summon them.

And if you're knocked unconscious, then no one else in your group can get the handcuffs if they lack the summon power or the follower... hmm, doesn't quite seem to match up with them as a piece of equipment.

[Sean Waters]

A touch of insomnia led me to actually plonk a few numbers into Hero Designer. Is it utter madness? You tell me...

......................

Yes.

But it is a goooood madness :D

Technically this build allows you to drain the little blighter's life support and suffocate the handcuffs to death.

What a lovely idea.

[Utech]

And if you're knocked unconscious, then no one else in your group can get the handcuffs if they lack the summon power or the follower... hmm, doesn't quite seem to match up with them as a piece of equipment.
Nonsense. Your followers don't just stand around refusing to do anything when you're knocked out.

In this case, your friends just need the key. The automaton must follow the orders of whomever holds the key. 'Course it can't hear instructions. You have to have the key and physically move the automaton into "grab" or "release" mode.

Just like handcuffs.

[Maur]

provided your followers are there or that you performed your summons before getting knocked out.

[JmOz]

provided your followers are there or that you performed your summons before getting knocked out.

you build them as a summons then, with the belt being an OIF: universal

[Utech]

provided your followers are there or that you performed your summons before getting knocked out.

That's common sense, right? If your character doesn't remember to bring his handcuffs, his companions can't use them. This is exactly the same as a focus.

[prestidigitator]

All right. All right. Someone's brought in Automatons AND Summon. All we need now is the Godwin's Law of the Hero System discussion forums: Transform. Wait, did someone already bring that up?

Not that it's an altogether uninteresting suggestion exactly....

[Sean Waters]

All right. All right. Someone's brought in Automatons AND Summon. All we need now is the Godwin's Law of the Hero System discussion forums: Transform. Wait, did someone already bring that up?

Not that it's an altogether uninteresting suggestion exactly....

...or you could EDM into a universe where the person you wish to restrian is wearing handcuffs.

And, you know, rubber.