Should FH wizards use VPPs? [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

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Michael Hopcroft

Aug 8th, '03, 06:13 PM

Should I consder buying a VPP for a wizard character in FH to reflect the vast number of (relatively) minor spells he knows?

If the same limitations apply to all the spells in the VPP (gestures and incantations, Extra Tinme perhaps) this could theoretically create a very flexible mage, particulaly if he can change powers every minute or so. The one problem I forsee is that it would be a very expensive way to construct a mage, especially if you aloso want him to have a few specific, more powerful spells.

Monolith

Aug 8th, '03, 06:21 PM

The only problem with using VPPs is that they are AP limiting. Sometimes a very simple spell can be quite AP expensive to build in Hero terms. I am sure they would work well for small AP spells though.

If I were to ever play in a FH game I would probably use the 5/1 spell cost example provided in the book to allow mages to get vast amount of simple spells. I also considered a method where the character would just pay 1 point for each 10 APs in the spell, so a 60 AP spell costs the mage 6 points regardless of Limitations and other factors.

keithcurtis

Aug 8th, '03, 06:22 PM

I would suggest limiting the number of spells he knows through meta-game reasons: He has to research them/find them/buy them, etc.

As for limiting his versatility, make all of his spells run off an END reserve, then slap some lims on the Reserve recovery rate. This will allow for as wide a variety of spells as you want to allow him and still limit his ability to do as much as he wants as often as he wants. This is essentially the system we use and it works very well.
If you would like to read more, the whole system is in the Digital Hero archives (from the Cybergames days).

Keith "Brrr.... Cybergames" Curtis

Mr. Negative

Aug 8th, '03, 07:47 PM

For doing wizards the way that I normally envision them, the VPP is a must. Having said that, let me qualify it:

First, I envision all but the most minor of mages as being capable of "less impressive" feats of magic than usually seen on the battlefield. Second, I am a HUGE fan of the idea of spell prerequisites of the GURPS system. That is to say, if you can cast an explosive fireball, you must know how to cast a regular fireball, as well as be able to create and shape fire, ignite fires, etc. This system is WONDERFUL for "focusing" wizards around themes, rather than allowing them to exist as amorphous blobs of useful spells.

Now, requiring wizards in FH to buy tons of minor spells is a bad idea. It costs too many character points and doesn't reflect well in effectiveness. The wizard ends up with 80 point in spells and 1 or 2 dramatic and effective ones, which is normally not what a wizard player is looking for.

I actually use the VPP for all the character's spells, to reflect that their magic is all emanating from one source. However, to do this, I do put several restrictions on the lot. Shifting points in the pool requires no time, as the mage can cast one spell one turn and another spell the next. Virtually all spells must have a success roll of one sort or another ("to hit" or activation). I don't use a spell skill roll for each spell as this encourages the player to buy it up as high as possible, and because a wizard may know a new spell poorly (low activation roll) and another spell very well (high or no activation roll). Virtually all spells require concentration, gestures, and incantations to cast, as well as extra time (sometimes just a full phase), though certain spells (reflexive defense spells only) do not. Finally, I STRONGLY limit the spells in the VPP to the following:

All spells must be completely written up in advance (wizards have an established repertoire of spells and do not "make them up on the fly" in my campaigns.

All spells must have been previously approved by the GM.

All spells must either fit into previously established "colleges" of spells known by the mage, or be very minor spells (representing a new sphere of magic being explored).

Minor magics from a college or sphere must be known (written up) before any major spells are written up. This means that, to be a fire wizard, for example, you should be able to light fires, keep yourself warm, and protect yourself from fires before you can start learning to throw more powerful fire spells. This is highly subjective, so beware!

Advanced magical knowledge (many or powerful spells) should also be represented either by a high KS: Magic roll (for the generalist), or decent KS: Fire (or Earth, or Enchantment, or Necromantic, etc.) Magic rolls. This means that to be a wizard with a great deal of spells, you need to actually know a lot of information about your area of expertise.

Also, many important spells "bump up" against the Active Point limit of the VPP, even though their combat effectiveness is minimal. For example, a "Clean Wounds" spell that removed infection and foreign objects from a wound would need to be a fairly powerful transform (as it consistently removes these objects even from a character with a high body), but would be a fairly limited spell, as it may take lots of extra time, require a willing subject, and can really only be used to help someone. In cases like this, the GM could allow the Active Points of the spell to exceed the VPP limit, but I would probably still limit the REAL points to the Pool limits (and only in cases like this, where the exception is needed to "allow" an important, plausible, balanced game effect.

I would like to point out that this system of magic is not universal, nor even common in fantasy worlds. Many worlds use a system that assumes each spell is a separate block of knowledge, or kind of a magical maneuver that you have trained in. My point is only that a VPP magic pool is very viable for FH, but that the GM must take a very active role in ensuring that the specifics of the VPP mesh with the metaphysics of magic in his world.

Killer Shrike

Aug 8th, '03, 08:03 PM

I prefer VPPs for Magic myself, but 1st check w/ your GM.

There should be a consistent approach (or several different but internally consistent) to Magic within the campaign/setting, or it becomes very weird.

Citizen Keen

Aug 8th, '03, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by keithcurtis
I would suggest limiting the number of spells he knows through meta-game reasons: He has to research them/find them/buy them, etc.

As for limiting his versatility, make all of his spells run off an END reserve, then slap some lims on the Reserve recovery rate. This will allow for as wide a variety of spells as you want to allow him and still limit his ability to do as much as he wants as often as he wants. This is essentially the system we use and it works very well.
If you would like to read more, the whole system is in the Digital Hero archives (from the Cybergames days).

Keith "Brrr.... Cybergames" Curtis

I've done both these things, and it works great.

The way magic works in my campaign is that the Gods create spells. No matter how powerful a mage you are, you cannot invent new spells. You can only cast spells you have seen. Anytime you see a new spell, you're entitled to a Zero Phase Analyze Magic skill roll (vs. Concealment, if you want to hide your spell). If the spell is in your school, and you make the roll, you can cast it.

This gives me (the GM) great control, because only I can expose characters to new spells, and they can only cast spells they've been exposed to. I'm open to them bringing me a new spell and saying "Me like", the catch being is that it will probably be used against them before they get it.

I also use END reserves to great effect, but we all know how END reserves work.

-cK

AnotherSkip

Aug 9th, '03, 02:12 PM

I'm not sure i would enjoy all of the system "suggestions" listed.....

i prefer to be able to create and a VPP is a constructors dream come true.

that being said, for speed of play I usually go with two powers and -1 in limitations rather than my whole detailed balancing act.....

OddHat

Aug 9th, '03, 02:56 PM

I like the idea of a VPP with GM imposed limits on allowable spells myself, as well as a strict "no casting on the fly" rule to help prevent plot breakers. The active point limit on VPPs is a problem. Usually I'll allow adjustment powers to be used for situations where the character absolutely has to have another 40 active points in order to summon Yog-Sogoth...;)

Damon_Dusk

Aug 9th, '03, 03:20 PM

I used a VPP system for wizards in my fantasy games as well, and I got around the Active Point limits by including an Advantage on the Control Cost. I believe it was something like 2x AP max for +1/2, 3x for +1, 4x for +1 1/2, and so on. All spells were created by me, though I did allow player made spells (with approval by me). It allowed wizards to know powerful spells, but still were limited in how many spells they could have "memorized" at one time. It seemed to work out, but probably needs more testing. :)

Chris Goodwin

Aug 9th, '03, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
Should I consder buying a VPP for a wizard character in FH to reflect the vast number of (relatively) minor spells he knows?

Check with the GM. Unless the GM is using a pretty generic magic system, he's probably got something in mind for how magic works in his campaign. It might be that you can't use VPPs or other frameworks.

Agent Escafarc

Aug 10th, '03, 04:33 AM

I use VPPs for magi in my game also. But I don't have pre-designed spells each mage manipulates magic in his owm unique way. You would not find "spell books" but instead it would be a book on the the theroy of magic. AP limits require multible magi working together. I should also mention that there are no magic items in my game so magi weld social and political power also.

PhilFleischmann

Aug 19th, '03, 02:41 PM

I don't remember who suggested this solution, so forgive me if it was you. It was a long time ago on the old boards. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant, and very well balanced house rule:

For a VPP, you pay
1) the Pool cost, as normal. The full amount = the maximum amount of Real Points of power that can be in the pool. (So far, this is exactly according to FREd.)
2) The Control cost = 1/2 the maximum Active Points of any one power in the pool. If the maximum AP = the total RP, you have a standard, per-FREd, VPP:

Examples:
a) Standard FREd-like VPP:
50 Pool Cost = 50 Real Points of power in the pool.
25 Control Cost = 50 maximum Active Points of any one power.
75 CP total

b) Low AP VPP:
50 Pool Cost = 50 RP total
10 Control Cost = 20 max AP of any one power.
This would be for a pool of fairly small powers only. Smaller powers, less flexibility = costs less: 60 CP as opposed to 75.

c) High AP VPP:
50 Pool Cost = 50 RP total in the pool
50 Control Cost = 100 max AP of any one power.
This allows huge powers to be put in the pool, provided they have enough limitations to fit into the Real Points limit, e.g., a 100 AP power would need at least -1 in limitations to fit into this pool, and even at -1, it would use up the entire pool. Bigger powers, more flexibility = costs more: 100 CP instead of 75.

For the record. I find VPPs to be quite useful for mages. In my campaign I usually don't allow them to be changed on the fly. Mages must spend an hour or several hours studying to change their pools around. But I do allow them great flexibility as to what spells they can have. Pretty much anything goes that doesn't spoil the plot, and as long as it satisfies any other restrictions on the character.

Killer Shrike

Aug 19th, '03, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
I don't remember who suggested this solution, so forgive me if it was you. It was a long time ago on the old boards. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant, and very well balanced house rule:

For a VPP, you pay
1) the Pool cost, as normal. The full amount = the maximum amount of Real Points of power that can be in the pool. (So far, this is exactly according to FREd.)

My AD&D 2e -> HERO System conversion used this method, with the corrolary that you could only have 1 spell in the pool at a time, and casting it "flushed" the VPP. Thus to have effects that stuck around you had to apply 0 end Contin Uncontrolled to the spell, which helped. As another artificial control, the Real Cost/ 10 = the spells level, and all spells, even 0 END spells, cost their "level" in END from a Magic END Pool when cast. The REC on the END Pool was defaulted to "Only after 8 hours of rest" for no limitation (but could be bought up the time chart for a +1/4 per step).

It worked out well.

My new 3e -> HERO System conversion takes a different tack however; its book legal, does away with a Magic END Pool, and requires all spells to be built with Charges. To get around the difficulty of fitting enough spells into the pool, the Real Cost total can be doubled as a +5 Adder on the Control Cost and can be taken multiple times (thus x8 RC total is a +15 Adder, applied before modifiers as normal for an Adder).

Killer Shrike

Aug 19th, '03, 03:28 PM

Heres a link to it:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3486

RadeFox

Aug 19th, '03, 09:37 PM

How do you explain/prevent mages from buying their VPP's thus:
20 RP poll
+5 adder 40pt pool
+5 adder 60 pt pool
+5 adder 80 pt pool
+5 adder 100 pt pool
+5 adder 120pt VPP!

so now for 45 cp, a mage could have an 120 RP limit VPP. Not too mention, now he could increase the base with 1 xp and net a gain of 5 pts in the Pool. Or they could just keep on buying the doubling adders. Sounds very abusive to me.

Mages with VPP's are hard to balance in almost any magic system incarnation in hero. But I agree, a VPP is the most 'normal' wayto handle the kind of fantasy magic wielders most of us are used too.

Im still looking for the perfect blend of playability ease, Balance, and wonderous effects for my own world a brewing. :P

Blue Jogger

Aug 19th, '03, 09:43 PM

I like VPP (or something simular) for minor magics.

It is a good way for showing how strange (or human) a wizard can be.

Invisible Tool +10 STR, Mage mimics using a simple tool
Clothing of the Nobility Minor Transform clothes into better clothes, spell lasts until midnight
My Animal Friends Will Help Minor Transform or Change Environment with special effect of helpful forest creatures
Wizard Smash! +10 STR, Only to pick up and throw/wield heavy objects
Choice of Color Cosmetic Transform
Best Guess Deduction INT+3, (GM rolls activation roll before answering)
Quick Sketch PS: Artist DEX+3, Only to quickly sketch what the wizard is currently seeing.

Keneton

Aug 19th, '03, 09:46 PM

All of these posts that imply you save points with a VPP over buying the spells individually are hogwash. It would take about 15+ spells at standard heroic level to break even with a VPP. Now a multipower IS the way to go.
:)

That said I do apprecaite the good Ideas that I see.

Killer Shrike

Aug 19th, '03, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by RadeFox
How do you explain/prevent mages from buying their VPP's thus:
20 RP poll
+5 adder 40pt pool
+5 adder 60 pt pool
+5 adder 80 pt pool
+5 adder 100 pt pool
+5 adder 120pt VPP!

so now for 45 cp, a mage could have an 120 RP limit VPP. Not too mention, now he could increase the base with 1 xp and net a gain of 5 pts in the Pool. Or they could just keep on buying the doubling adders. Sounds very abusive to me.

Read it again.

They can double the REAL COST LIMIT.

Which means if they had a 20 Pool, and doubled the REAL COST LIMIT once, they could have 40 Real Cost worth of powers, each of which could have no more than 20 ACTIVE POINTS.

PhilFleischmann

Aug 20th, '03, 01:06 PM

But that's even worse!

With a 20 point base pool, you could add +15 to get a total of 160 Real Points of spells! I understand that none can be more than 20 Active, but that's still 160 RP for only 35! Plus you have the advantage of being able to switch them around.

Why would anyone pay 160 points for 8 20-point spells, when they could get them for only 35 points, with the ability to swap them for other spells? You should always pay the full Real Cost of whatever Real Points you have. That's why they're called "real points." Anything less is abusive.

Killer Shrike

Aug 20th, '03, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
But that's even worse!

With a 20 point base pool, you could add +15 to get a total of 160 Real Points of spells! I understand that none can be more than 20 Active, but that's still 160 RP for only 35! Plus you have the advantage of being able to switch them around.

Why would anyone pay 160 points for 8 20-point spells, when they could get them for only 35 points, with the ability to swap them for other spells? You should always pay the full Real Cost of whatever Real Points you have. That's why they're called "real points." Anything less is abusive.

You dont pay real points for powers taken through VPPs.

You pay the Pool points. You pay the Control Cost.

Normally the AP of each power bought thru the VPP must be equal to or less than the Pool Size.

The total real cost of Powers you may have in the Pool at any given time is normally equal to the Pool Size.

Thus, normally there is no way to increase the number of spells you want to have in the VPP without also increasing the Pool Size.

This is a rather arbitrary linkage -- to put it into geometric terms in order to make the Pool wider, you also have to make it taller.

This can make it difficult to model some spell systems where casters have a high number of Powers of smaller size.

Thus, for example, if you try to model the Vancian/D&D Magic Systems of X slots per level, it is very difficult to outright impossible to squeeze it into a VPP without enflating the size of the Pool past what is necessary to cast the biggest spell the caster has available to them, simply because you cant get enough spells to fit into the pool even though the Active Points of any given Spell are at or below the Pool size.

This is a known issue with VPPs and is mentioned in the Fantasy HERO text.

Here is a rule forum post from April I made on the subject:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2924

Steve made several suggestions on how to get around this issue. I opted to go for an Adder on the Control Cost vice a Talent or a GM Fiat Campaign rule because I have multiple types of casters with variant Control Costs, and by making it an Adder all of the Modifiers defined for each type of caster's Control Cost get applied to the Adder.

Talon

Aug 20th, '03, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Keneton
All of these posts that imply you save points with a VPP over buying the spells individually are hogwash. It would take about 15+ spells at standard heroic level to break even with a VPP.

Your players aren't coming up with 15+ unique spells? You need better players. ;)

Sketchpad

Aug 20th, '03, 02:29 PM

I prefer VPP as my style of magic :)
What I do is one of the following:
1) RSR - Type of magic. Depending on the skill, the mage must have the proper skill to cast it. You want to cast a fireball spell? You need the Evocation and Elemental skills to rip it off properly.
2) Magic Element. On top of skills, I occasionally have used rules akin to WE from UMA to emulate a mage having some knowledge. Purchased as 3 pt. Talents, MEs are specialized forms of magic that the user buys to give the magic some flavor. So, when casting a Fireball, I would have RSR - Element Magic (-1/2) and Requires ME: Fire (-1/2) to cast :)

As for point efficiency ... IMHO, magic should be expensive and should take time to master BIG spells ... after all, not all 150pt. characters should be Gandalf :D

AnotherSkip

Aug 20th, '03, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Your players aren't coming up with 15+ unique spells? You need better players. ;)
Darn straight he does...:)

Heck iv'e got about 40+ in my "standard grimoire" all of them with stuff the Gm never even considered......

that even discounts the stuff the Gm rejected for not being in concept, as well as just stat boosters (+x"running, +X Str, etc.)

Keneton

Aug 20th, '03, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Your players aren't coming up with 15+ unique spells? You need better players. ;)

You were missing my point Geoffe. I am not talking how many spells they know or can come up with. My players are probably the most advanced players you would ever meet. You know how I GM at least!

The point I am making is that the VPP does not save points. It is far more expensive than a Multipower. The break even point is beyond most Fantasy Hero Campaigns.

Think of a wizard package for example with 40 points in spells. Thats a fairly competent wizard using a multipower or the Turakian method. With a VPP he's a whimp able to cast max 30 active point attacks.

The VPP for fantsy hero is overrated unless you are playing high powered near superheroic fantasy.

The point I still contend is that the VPP is not a useful tool for heroic level fanstasy hero. It cost way too much for the flexibility. you would gain.

The 15+ spells I list for the break even point would be far more efficient. I could have that many 50+ active point attack spells in a multipower and still beat out a 40 base pool VPP.

Growing the VPP would cost far more than adding new slots to a point up to around 70 active and then the VPP breaks even.

Do you see my point now?
:)

Keneton

Aug 20th, '03, 06:00 PM

SHADE

Player: WMR

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">40/55  </td><td>STR</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30  </td><td>DEX</td><td>60</td></tr><tr><td align="right">34  </td><td>CON</td><td>48</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18  </td><td>BODY</td><td>16</td></tr><tr><td align="right">28  </td><td>INT</td><td>18</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30  </td><td>EGO</td><td>40</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30  </td><td>PRE</td><td>20</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30  </td><td>COM</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">27  </td><td>PD</td><td>14</td></tr><tr><td align="right">24  </td><td>ED</td><td>12</td></tr><tr><td align="right">6  </td><td>SPD</td><td>20</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>REC</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">70  </td><td>END</td><td>1</td></tr><tr><td align="right">55  </td><td>STUN</td><td>0</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">15"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">5"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">8"/11"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 289

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>Divine Magical Powers: Elemental Control, 60-point powers </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">49  </td><td>1) Flight 15", Improved Noncombat Movement (x8), Position Shift, Usable Underwater (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (79 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>2) Magical Shield: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (Protect Carried Items), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +3/4) (60 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">82  </td><td>3) Shadow Step: Teleportation 15", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x2 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (112 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">660  </td><td>Divine Magical Power: VPP (Magic Pool), 300 base + 360 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (750 Active Points); Limited Class Of Powers Available Slightly Limited (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>1) Deep Shadows: Change Environment 8" radius, -4 PER Roll: Normal Sight, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (39 Active Points) Real Cost: 39 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>2) Darkness Blast: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (112 Active Points) Real Cost: 112 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>3) Numbing Darkness: Energy Blast 7d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), No Normal Defense Standard (+1) (87 Active Points) Real Cost: 87 [Notes: NND Defense: LS: Cold, Cold or Darkness Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>4) Dark Force Bonds: Entangle 7d6, 7 DEF (Stops A Given Sense: Normal Sight), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (112 Active Points) Real Cost: 112 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>5) Destructive Darkness: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (45 Active Points) Real Cost: 45 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>6) Silver Sword: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (45 Active Points) Real Cost: 45 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>7) Dark Force Bolts: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1) (105 Active Points) Real Cost: 105 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>8) Dark Force Bolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points) Real Cost: 94 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>9) Magical Silver Shields: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Ranged Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (30 Active Points) Real Cost: 30 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>10) Instant Change: Transform 2d6 (Cosmetic), Standard Effect (+0), Improved Target Group (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (17 Active Points); Limited Target: Clothes Limited (-1/2) Real Cost: 11 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>11) Slick Spell: Change Environment 16" radius, -4 DEX Rolls and DEX Based Skills, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (65 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4), Only Effects Characters Along Surfaces (-1/4) Real Cost: 43 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>12) Confusion: Change Environment 16" radius, -4 INT Rolls and INT Based Skills, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (65 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 52 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>13) Warmth: Change Environment 16" radius, 4 Temperature Level Adjustment, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (51 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 41 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>14) Chill: Change Environment 1" radius, 4 Temperature Level Adjustment, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (21 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 17 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>15) Green Thumb: Change Environment 4" radius, Long-Lasting: Permanent, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (52 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 42 [Notes: Makes Plants Happy and Healthy] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>16) Fog: Change Environment 16" radius, -3 PER Roll: Sight Group, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (46 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 37 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>17) Psychometry: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight Group And Normal Hearing) (45 Active Points); Precognition/Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2), Vague and Unclear (-1/2), Can only see events associated with an area she is in or an object she is touching (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 12 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>18) Eye of the Mind: Clairsentience (Sight And Hearing Groups And Detect Magic), x256 Range, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (112 Active Points); Concentration 1/2 DCV, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 64 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>19) Spider Walking: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>20) Cloak: Darkness to Clarisentience Group 3" radius, Custom Adder, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (75 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 60 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>21) Douse Magic: Dispel Magic 20d6, Expanded Effect One At A Time (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (90 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>22) Extinguish: Dispel Fire 11d6, Expanded Effect One At A Time (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>23) Banishment: Dispel Magical Summon 25d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>24) Remove Curse: Dispel Magical Transform 25d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>25) Destroy Wards of Protection: Dispel Magical Force Field 25d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Only vs. Magical Force Field (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 54 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>26) Touch of the Sandman: Drain STUN 7 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>27) Touch of the Void: Drain DEX 7 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>28) Temporal Globe: Drain SPD 7 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>29) Touch of Destruction: Drain Body 7 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>30) Touch of Weakness: Drain STR 7 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>31) Ray of Enfeeblement: Drain STR 5d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>32) Ray of Decay: Drain Body 5d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>33) Slow: Drain DEX 5d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>34) Ray of Dreams: Drain Stun 5d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>35) Vertigo: Drain DEX 3d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>36) Cone of Weakness: Drain STR 3d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>37) Cone of Decay: Drain Body 3d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>38) Cone of Dreams: Drain Stun 3d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>39) Temporal Cone: Drain SPD 3d6, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Cone; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>40) Rain of Weakness: Drain STR 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute) (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>41) Sleep Darts: Drain Stun 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute) (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>42) Rain of Lost Time: Drain SPD 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute) (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>43) Drunken Arrows: Drain DEX 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (5 Points per Minute) (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (95 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 76 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>44) Weaken Magic: Drain Magic Powers 1d6, Variable Effect One Power At A Time (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (15 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 12 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>45) Night's Rage: Ego Attack 7 1/2d6, Additional Class of Minds: Alien, Additional Class of Minds: Animals, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (119 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 95 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>46) Pain: Ego Attack 5d6, Additional Class of Minds: Alien, Additional Class of Minds: Animal, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) (122 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 98 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>47) Silver Light: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>48) Flame Strike: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>49) Earthen Ram: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>50) Tsunami: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>51) Hurricane Wind: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>52) Bolt of Stunning: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Stun Only (+0), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>53) Static Shock: Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED), Stun Only (+0), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>54) Dancing Spheres of Pain: Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED), Stun Only (+0), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1) (135 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 108 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>55) Power Spheres: Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1) (135 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 108 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>56) Spirit Force: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>57) Bolt of Ethereal Silver: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Indirect Any origin, always fired away from attacker (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>58) Fire Burst: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>59) Tornado Winds: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>60) Mists of Morpheus: Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense Standard (+1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 [Notes: NND Defense: LS: Reduced Sleep, or 30 or more CON] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>61) Psionic Storm: Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>62) Numbing Cold: Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense Standard (+1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 [Notes: NND Defense: LS: Cold, Cold or Fire Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>63) For Whom the Bell Tolls: Energy Blast 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense Standard (+1) (81 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 65 [Notes: NND Defense: Hearing Group Flash Defense, Deafness, Sonic Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>64) True Sight: Spatial Awareness (Discriminatory, Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Range) (37 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 30 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>65) Light of Revelation: (Total: 25 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Sight Group Images (10 Active Points); Only to Create Image of Demon's True Form (-1/2), Linked: Detect Demons to Flight (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Detect: Demons A Class Of Things 15-, Discriminatory, Range (15 Active Points); Costs Endurance Costs END Every Phase (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) (Real Cost: 8) Real Cost: 12 </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>66) Mage Sight: Telescopic +8 to PER Rolls (only to offset the Range Modifier) (Detect Magic) (8 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 6 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>67) Eavesdrop: Telescopic +8 to PER Rolls (only to offset the Range Modifier) (Hearing Group) (12 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>68) Far Sight: Telescopic +8 to PER Rolls (only to offset the Range Modifier) (Sight Group) (12 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>69) Finding the True Path: Bump of Direction (3 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 2 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>70) Spirit Snare: Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>71) Mindlock: Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +3/4), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1) (75 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 50 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>72) Ward of Containment: Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 58 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>73) Aura of Binding: Entangle 1d6, 1 DEF, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (17 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 14 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>74) Hands of Darkness: Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 55 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>75) Entrapment: Entangle 6d6, 6 DEF, Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (90 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>76) Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Dimensions, Any Location), x8 Increased Weight (50 Active Points); Extra Time 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 20 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>77) Blilnding Silver: Flash 15d6 (Sight Group), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>78) Starburst: Flash 10d6 (Sight Group), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>79) Flashbang: Flash 9d6 (Sight Group), Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>80) Mage Blind: Flash 25d6 (Detect Magic), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>81) Aura of Magical Blinding: Flash 11d6 (Detect Magic), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>82) Reverse Gravity: Flight 10", Usable Underwater (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1) (80 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 64 [Notes: Usable As Attack Cancel: Flight Powers] </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>83) Levitation: Flight 1", Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (4 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 3 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>84) Continual Light: Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>85) Magical Picture Show: Sight Group and Hearing Group Images (15 Active Points); Obviously an Image, Like watching small holograms (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>86) Cloak of Darkness: Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Only to form Cloak of Darkness (-1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>87) Smoke and Flash: Sight Group and Normal Hearing Images, x2 Radius (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (23 Active Points); Only to Create Stage Magic Smoke and Flash Effects (-1), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>88) Sunlight: Sight Group Images, +4 to PER Roll, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), x16 Radius (+1) (55 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 24 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>89) Blazing Sword: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 36 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>90) Sword of Silver Light: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 36 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>91) Lightning Bolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>92) Flame Bolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>93) Earthen Spike: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>94) Chain Lightning: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (vs. ED), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1) (135 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 108 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>95) Magic Missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1) (105 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 84 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>96) Star Bolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>97) Fireball: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>98) Iron Wood Spike: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>99) Psychic Bolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/2), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>100) Wrath: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (vs. ED), +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/2), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (90 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>101) Rain of Doom: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (vs. ED), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), Attack Versus Limited Defense: Power Defense (+1 1/2) (90 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>102) Agony: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Attack Versus Limited Defense: Power Defense (+1 1/2) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>103) Illusion: Mental Illusions 15d6, Additional Class of Minds: Alien, Additional Class of Minds: Animal, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (119 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 95 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>104) Domination: Mind Control 15d6, Additional Class of Minds: Aliens, Additional Class of Minds: Animals, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (119 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 95 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>105) Voice of the Mind: Mind Link (Any Willing Target), Number of Minds (x8) (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 24 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>106) Sphere of Deflection: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Indirect: Any Location, Any Direction (+3/4), Ranged Full Range (+1) (65 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 52 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>107) Mental Deflection: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Invisible Power Effects (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +3/4), Indirect: Any location, Any Direction (+3/4), Ranged Full Range (+1), Based on Ego Combat Value (+1) (90 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 72 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>108) Self Image: Shapeshift (Sight Group; Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group, Imitation, Instant Change, Variety of Shapes: Limited Group of Shapes), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (57 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 46 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>109) Touch of Magic: Telekinesis (50 STR), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>110) Magic's Grasp: Telekinesis (33 STR), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 70 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>111) Magic Hand: Telekinesis (43 STR), Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (93 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 74 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>112) Magnetic Wave: Telekinesis (20 STR), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +3/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective Target (6" Radius; +3/4) (82 Active Points); Only Affects Ferrous Metals (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 47 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>113) Unseen Servant: Telekinesis (10 STR), Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (62 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 50 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>114) Winds of Command: Telekinesis (25 STR), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (84 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 67 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>115) Read Minds: Telepathy 15d6, Additional Class of Minds: Aliens, Additional Class of Minds: Animals, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (119 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 95 </td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>116) The Winding Path: Teleportation 15", Improved Noncombat Movement (x1048576), No Relative Velocity, x8 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (262 Active Points); Can Only Teleport To Fixed Locations Floating Fixed Locations (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 150 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>117) Move Through Space: Teleportation 12", Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (66 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 53 [Notes: Usable As Attack Cancel: Teleportation Powers, Extra Mass] </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>118) Stasis: Transform 5d6: Places Targets into Supended Animation (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>119) Reduce: Transform 5d6: Shrinks Targets to a tiny size (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>120) Medusa Gaze: Transform 5d6: Turns Targets to Stone (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>121) Reverse Stoning: Transform 5d6: Reverses Stoning Spells (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Limited Target: Targets That have been Magically Turned to Stone Very Limited (-1), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 42 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>122) Create Food: Transform 5d6: Creates bland but nutrional food bars (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>123) Oasis: Transform 5d6: Creates Water (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 75 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>124) Fashion Sense: Transform 6d6: Alters the Appearance of Clothes (Cosmetic), Improved Target Group (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Target: Clothes Limited (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 43 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>125) Mend: Transform 7d6: Repairs Broken Inanimate Objects (Minor), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (87 Active Points); Limited Target: Broken Objects Slightly Limited (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 58 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>126) Bad Luck: Transform 2d6: Curses Target with 3d6 Unluck (Major), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +1 1/2) (82 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 66 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>127) Enchant Item: Transform 4d6: Binds magic into prepared magical items (Major), Improved Target Group (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (90 Active Points); Takes time and skill rolls out of combat to create items (-1), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 40 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>128) Vermin: Transform 2d6: Transforms Humanoids into Bugs, Rodents or Spiders (Major), Improved Target Group (+1/4), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Sight Group, Hearing Group; +3/4) (67 Active Points); Limited Target: Living Beings Slightly Limited (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 45 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>129) Shape Stone: Transform 7d6: Molds Stone (Minor), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (87 Active Points); Limited Target: Stone Limited (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 50 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>130) Shape Metal: Transform 7d6: Molds Metal (Minor), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (87 Active Points); Limited Target: Metals Limited (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 50 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>131) Wizard Lock: Transform 7d6: Magically secures locks, doors, windows, boxes (Minor), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (87 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4), Limited Target: Locks, Doors, Windows, etc. Slightly Limited (-1/4) Real Cost: 58 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>132) Knock: Transform 7d6: Unlocks doors, locks, windows, boxes (Minor), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (87 Active Points); Limited Target: Doors, locks, windows, boxes, etc. Slightly Limited (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 58 </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>133) Purify Food and Water: Transform 2d6: Purifies food and water (Minor) (20 Active Points); Limited Target: Food and Water Limited (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) Real Cost: 11 </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>134) Universal Translator 18- (23 Active Points) Real Cost: 23 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>Stamina: +0 STR, Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (10 Active Points) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">15  </td><td>Magically Enhanced Strength: +15 STR, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (22 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Bravery: +10 PRE (10 Active Points); For Defense Only (-1) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">37  </td><td>Divine Body: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%, Inherent (+1/4) (37 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">37  </td><td>Divine Body: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%, Inherent (+1/4) (37 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">11  </td><td>Divine Body: Damage Resistance (9 PD/9 ED), Inherent (+1/4) (11 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>Sense Magic: Detect Magic 15-, Analyze, Discriminatory, Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Range, Rapid (x10), Sense </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Mystic Sight: Infrared Perception </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Eyes of the Night: Nightvision </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Star Sight: Ultraviolet Perception </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5  </td><td>Psionic Sensing: Mental Awareness </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7  </td><td>High Tech Communicator Card: High Range Radio Perception (12 Active Points); Sense Affected As More Than One Sense: Sight, Hearing, Radio (-1/2), IIF (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>Divine Body: Life Support , Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Longevity: Immortal, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Inherent (+1/4) (30 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">30  </td><td>Divine Favor: Luck 6d6 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">19  </td><td>Mental Training: +19 Mental Defense (25 points total) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3  </td><td>Mental Training: Damage Resistance (5 Mental Def.) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">25  </td><td>Divine Body: Power Defense (20 points), Inherent (+1/4) (25 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3  </td><td>Divine Body: Damage Resistance (5 Power Def.), Inherent (+1/4) (3 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td>Divine Body: Regeneration 2 BODY (Can Heal Limbs), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (56 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">25  </td><td>Fast: +9" Running (15" total), Reduced Endurance Half END (+1/4) (25 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3  </td><td>Fast: Swimming +3" (5" total) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10  </td><td>Branches of the Winding Path: Teleportation: Floating Fixed Location (2 Locations) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td>Along the Winding Path: Teleportation: Fixed Location (20 Locations) [Notes: Boston (apartment), Boston (Fenway Park), Paris, London, Giza Plateau, Millennium City, Los Angeles, Rio de Janerio, New York City, San Francisco, Rome, Seattle, Vibora Bay, Stonehenge, Hong Kong, Cancun, Venice, Athens, Denver, Chicago] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 1211

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Martial Arts Maneuver</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Blackout: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +4d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Dancing Shadow: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +2 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike, Full Move </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Elusive Shadow: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Evading Throw: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +3 DCV, STR Strike, Target Falls, +v/5 </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Fade: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +3 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Half Eclipse: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, STR +1d6 Strike, Target Falls </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, +15 STR vs. Grabs </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, STR Strike, Target Falls, +v/5 </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Night Fist: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Night's Embrace: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -2 DCV, Grab 2 Limbs, +15 STR for Holding On </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Night's Kiss: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, STR +4d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Power Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, STR +3d6 Strike, Target Falls, +v/5 </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Shadow Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -2 DCV, STR +2d6 Strike, Full Move </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Shadow's Wrath: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -2 DCV, STR +4d6 Strike, Full Move </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>Takeaway: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Weapon, +10 STR to Take Weapon Away </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Total Eclipse: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, STR +4d6 Strike </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Weapon Element: Axes, Maces, Hammers, and Picks, Blades, Darkness HKA </td></tr></table>Martial Arts Cost: 87

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Acrobatics 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Acting 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Analyze: Magic 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Breakfall 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Concealment 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Contortionist 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Conversation 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Cryptography 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Deduction 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Defense Maneuver: I-IV  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Fast Draw: Common Mele Weapons 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Fast Draw: Ranged Magical Powers 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Fast Draw: Teleportation 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>High Society 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">53  </td><td>Magic Skill (INT-based) 40- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">12  </td><td>Navigation (Air, Astral, Dimensional, Land, Marine) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Oratory 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Paramedics 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Persuasion 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Seduction 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Shadowing 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Sleight Of Hand 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Stealth 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Streetwise 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Spell Research 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Tactics 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Teamwork 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>TF: SCUBA, Skating (iceskating or rollerskating), Skiing (snow), Skiing (water), Two-Wheeled Muscle-Powered Ground Vehicles </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">4  </td><td>WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Weaponsmith (Muscle-Powered HTH, Muscle-Powered Ranged) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Rapid Autofire </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Rapid Attack (HTH)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Rapid Attack (Ranged)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Two-Weapon Fighting (HTH)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranged)  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">48  </td><td>+6 with All Combat </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>+2 vs. specific OCV modifier on a single attack </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Jack of All Trades </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>1) PS: Belly Dancing (DEX-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>2) PS: Chess (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>3) PS: Dancing (DEX-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>4) PS: Exorcism (INT-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>5) PS: Exotic Dancing (DEX-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>6) PS: Item Enchantment (INT-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>7) PS: Magician (DEX-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>8) PS: Tarot Cards (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Linguist </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>1) Language: Egyptian (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>2) Language: Ancient Greek (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>3) Language: Ancient Hebrew (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>4) Language: Arabic (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>5) Language: Aramaic (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>6) Language: French (Completely Fluent, w/Accent) (3 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>7) Language: German (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>8) Language: Italian (Completely Fluent, w/Accent) (3 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>9) Language: Japanese (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>10) Language: Latin (Completely Fluent, w/Accent) (3 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>11) Language: Mayan (Fluent Conversation) (2 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>12) Language: Spanish (Idiomatic, native accent) (4 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Scholar </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>1) KS: Ancient Civilizations (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>2) KS: Ancient Middle Easter Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>3) KS: Arcane and Occult Lore (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>4) KS: Arcane Cults (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>5) KS: Arcane Rituals (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>6) KS: Assiah (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>7) KS: Atlantean Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>8) KS: Atziluth (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>9) KS: Baseball Trivia (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>10) KS: Boston Celtics (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>11) KS: Boston Club Scene (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>12) KS: Boston History (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>13) KS: Boston Red Sox (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>14) KS: Buddhism (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>15) KS: Circle of the Scarlet Moon (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>16) KS: Dance Music (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>17) KS: DEMON (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>18) KS: Demonology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>19) KS: Dimensional Magic (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>20) KS: Drudism (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>21) KS: Egyptian Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>22) KS: Evil Supernatural Organizations (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>23) KS: Good Supernatural Organizations (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>24) KS: Greek Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>25) KS: Incan Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>26) KS: Koran (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>27) KS: Ley Lines Magic (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>28) KS: Magic (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>29) KS: Magic Items (INT-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>30) KS: Magic Spells (INT-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>31) KS: Magic Users (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>32) KS: Magic Writings (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>33) KS: Magical Languages (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>34) KS: Magical Symbols (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>35) KS: Magical/Occult World (INT-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>36) KS: Mayan Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>37) KS: Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>38) KS: New England Patriots (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>39) KS: Norse Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>40) KS: Sephirothic Tree of Life (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>41) KS: Super Heroes (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>42) KS: Superhuman World (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>43) KS: Supernatural Creatures (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>44) KS: Supervillains (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>45) KS: Tarot Cards (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>46) KS: The Bible (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>47) KS: The Four Zoas (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>48) KS: The Netherworld (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>49) KS: Undead (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>50) KS: Yetzirah (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Scientist </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>1) SS: Alchemy (INT-based) (6 Active Points) 18- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>2) SS: Anthropology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>3) SS: Archaeology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>4) SS: Astrology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>5) SS: Parapsychology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Traveler </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>1) AK: Boston (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>2) AK: Dimensional Gates (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>3) AK: Ley Lines (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>4) AK: London (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>5) AK: Los Angeles (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>6) AK: Millennium City (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>7) AK: Mystic Places (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>8) AK: New York City (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>9) AK: Paris (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>10) AK: San Francisco (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>11) AK: Vibora Bay (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 15- </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 482

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Talent</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Ambidexterity (Eliminate Off Hand Penalty entirely) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">27  </td><td>Danger Sense (Function as a Sense, Sensitivity: Any Danger) 15- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Ground Fighting </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Lightsleep </td></tr></table>Talents Cost: 42

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Dependent NPC: Olivia Silverstone 8- (Infrequently), Normal, Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Distinctive Features: Gorgeous/Godly Beauty Easily Concealed, Noticed and Recognizable, Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Distinctive Features: Demi-Goddess/Mystic Aura Not Concealable, Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction, Detectable Only By Unusual Senses </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: Viper 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: DEMON 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Hunted: Shadow Raven 8- (Occasionally), As Powerful, Mildly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Opposes Magical Evil Common, Moderate </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Thrillseeker/Fun Loving Very Common, Moderate </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Loves the Pursuit of Knowledge/Mysteries Common, Moderate </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Loves the Night and Darkness Uncommon, Moderate </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Strangely Attracted to Crusade Uncommon, Moderate </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Reputation: Champions Frequently (11-) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Reputation: Powerful Sorceress Frequently (11-) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Social Limitation: Secret Identity: Delilah Sombra Frequently (11-), Major </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 150
 
Base Points: 300
Experience Required: 1661
Total Experience Available: 1681
Experience Unspent: 20
Total Character Cost: 2111
 
<table width="100%" valign="top"><tr valign="top"><td>Height: 5' 11"</td><td>Hair: Raven Black</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td>Weight: 135 lbs</td><td>Eyes: Brown</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Appearance: Shade is a statuesque hispanic beauty with raven black hair and deep dark brown eyes. Shade has a dark skin tone, always appearing as if she has a summer tan. Shade wears a series of different costumes, but most often wears a skin tight black and silver costume.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Personality: </td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Quote:</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Background: Delilah Sombra and twin sister Desire were born June 6, 1981 to Debrah Sombra. Delilah did not realize the very special circumstances of her birth. Delilah's soul is actually that of a valiant heroine from another multiverse who died sacrificing her life to save her world. She was reborn in this multivervse and upon this Earth through cosmic intervention. Debra Sombra was a member of the arcane organization known as the Circle of the Scarlet Moon. Debra sought to increase her own standing within the organization by summoning a powerful magical entity to mate with her and thus concieve powerful children to serve the cult's evil schemes. She succeeded, and the souls of Delilah and Desire were produced in the union. Their father was Loki, the Norse god of mischief, trickery and evil. Debra Sombra never knew the entity's true identity. She always assumed that her spells had bound the entity as she had planned, but Loki had reasons of his own for siring the twins, reasons that have not yet become known. The two powerful demi-goddesses grew up under the Circle of the Scarlet Moon's instruction, but Delilah seemed to rebel and resist what she was taught. She was haunted by strange dreams of her other life that seemed to push her towards a heroic destiny. Desire, on the other hand seemed to embrace the cult's teachings. Delilah began to study on her own, and made contact with other organizations in the mystic community, including the Trismegistus Council. On her 16th birthday she ran away from home, and began a new life. She dedicated herself to opposing the evil of the world, mystic and not, taking the codename of Shade. Shade now lives in Boston, and makes a living as a club magician and dancer. She was recruited by Crusade to join the new superhero team , The Champions, located in Millennium City. She and her sister Desire, now called, Shadow Raven, are rivals and enemies, but they still share a bond of sisterly devotion.</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Powers/Tactics: </td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan=2>Campaign Use: </td></tr></table>

Keneton

Aug 20th, '03, 06:02 PM

Now can anyone argue my players cannot think of spells?
LOL!
:)

Hugh Neilson

Aug 20th, '03, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Keneton
The point I am making is that the VPP does not save points. It is far more expensive than a Multipower. The break even point is beyond most Fantasy Hero Campaigns.

Think of a wizard package for example with 40 points in spells. Thats a fairly competent wizard using a multipower or the Turakian method. With a VPP he's a whimp able to cast max 30 active point attacks.

The VPP for fantsy hero is overrated unless you are playing high powered near superheroic fantasy.

The point I still contend is that the VPP is not a useful tool for heroic level fanstasy hero. It cost way too much for the flexibility. you would gain.

This is dead on. The VPP suffers two disadvantages in Fantasy Hero. First, there is no way to get a break on the pool cost, so the pool will always be expensive. This is an issue in any campagn, but with the base points in a typical Fantasy Hero campaign (say 75+75), getting a high active point total is too expensive.

Second, a Fantasy Hero spell with less than -1 in limitations is virtually unheard of. In a multipower, that means at least a -1/2 limitation on the base (Variable Limit -1/2) and more likely -1, or even more, if all your spells have certain de minimis limitations (eg. Gestures, Incantations, RSR). In a multi, this reduces the "pool cost". A VPP just gets to have more spells in it at one time.

If you would have had no limitations, and a 50 point pool, the VPP costs 75 points. Make the VPP cosmic and it costs 125 - now you can change it as fast as the multi (and can you really afford to waste a lot of phases changing your pool when you have a 3 or 4 Speed?). You need 15 full-power ultra slots to have an equal cost, so say 10 spells on the assumption some don't use the full reserve, but many are not Ultras.

But if you have a -1 limitation, the VPP costs 88 points, while the Multi base costs only 25. Equalizing requires 63 points worth of slots - 21 full power ultras with no limitations, or over 30 full power ultras with another +1/4 limitation. Assume a mix similar to that discussed above, and we're talking over 20 spells that draw on the power pool. Spells I plan on having up pretty much all the time might not go in the VPP (eg. that force field since my wizard likely wears no armor).

More limitations makes the multipower more cost-effective comparatively. About the only big advantage to the VPP is that you could have two or more attack powers and use them as a multi-power attack (your limitations do reduce the cost to the pool). But how many spells with Incantations and Gestures can reasonably be cast simultaneously anyway, and just how much END have you got to power them?

Keneton

Aug 20th, '03, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
This is dead on.

Thanks for seeing my point. The good thing about these threads is the ability to reason out mechanics issues. I see the utility of the VPP, but I also see the disadvantages.

I thank you for your analysis as it was far more concise than my original post which caused more confusion than clarity. I am loathe to move my fantasy hero game to the turakian system from a purist prospective. I also like a uniform set of rules to allow for cross genre adventures. i do allow multipowers in FH and also many spells bought outside the framework.:)

Killer Shrike

Aug 20th, '03, 09:21 PM

VPPs are impractical for "Heroic Level" fantasy, no question.

However, I run High Fantasy, so it all works out, particularly at higher point levels.....

Damon_Dusk

Aug 20th, '03, 10:01 PM

Well, how would you propose a "heroic-level" fantasy magic system where wizards can learn unlimited numbers of spells yet still be balanced? Would you throw a bunch of limitations on a Multipower and let the points balance it out?

The problems I have with Multipower as magic is this: Why would you ever have 2 spells that use the same base power in a multipower? For example, 2 Invisibility spells: One vs. Normal Sight, One vs. Normal Hearing (both viable spells). Why would you pay points for 2 Invsibility spells separately when you could just pay points for one? Especially when the AP cost is only 5 points difference between the two. In a VPP, you're not paying points for the spells, they're free, so 2 Invisibility spells is perfectly reasonable. Also, applying Gestures, Incantations, etc. to the whole MP actively prevents you from learning 1 spell that can be cast silently or without movement.

I'm sure that a lot of things depend on the style of magic that you're looking for, but I guess I'm looking for the "typical" wizard style of magic, and from what I see, the VPP is the closest legal system to that.

Killer Shrike

Aug 20th, '03, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk
Well, how would you propose a "heroic-level" fantasy magic system where wizards can learn unlimited numbers of spells yet still be balanced? Would you throw a bunch of limitations on a Multipower and let the points balance it out?

The problems I have with Multipower as magic is this: Why would you ever have 2 spells that use the same base power in a multipower? For example, 2 Invisibility spells: One vs. Normal Sight, One vs. Normal Hearing (both viable spells). Why would you pay points for 2 Invsibility spells separately when you could just pay points for one? Especially when the AP cost is only 5 points difference between the two. In a VPP, you're not paying points for the spells, they're free, so 2 Invisibility spells is perfectly reasonable. Also, applying Gestures, Incantations, etc. to the whole MP actively prevents you from learning 1 spell that can be cast silently or without movement.

I'm sure that a lot of things depend on the style of magic that you're looking for, but I guess I'm looking for the "typical" wizard style of magic, and from what I see, the VPP is the closest legal system to that.
VPPs work great for Magic Systems, but they necessitate you to bump the point level of the campaign a tad to make the best use of them. They work great for High Fantasy, not as good for lower fantasy.

Seenar

Aug 21st, '03, 05:06 AM

I may be missing something, but how can you have slot costs of zero? I would think the minimum slot costs would be 1.

sbarron

Aug 21st, '03, 05:32 AM

That was a list of possible spells in a VPP, not a multipower.

Keneton

Aug 21st, '03, 06:06 AM

Concerning slots and limitations.

Place the limitations on the whole multipower that apply to all spells in the multipower and limitations on the slots that apply to the slots only.. An example.

In FH Campaign #1 GM Smith requires the following limitations.

*Gestures, Incantations, Requires a skill roll.

On attack spells he requires

*Spell

Optional limitations are legion and so he allows them with GM approval. These may include increased end, side effects, concentration, focus, etc.
:)

In most cases the wizard will keep a defensive forcefield, a detct, and a movement power outside the mutipower.

sbarron

Aug 21st, '03, 06:27 AM

I was always a big believer in the small VPP to represent lots of low level spells that make a Wizard cool, and either a MP or just buying spells outright for the more potent/combat spells. Below is a VPP I just put together that only costs 20 points. I realize that is a bunch for a 150 pt character, but I think what he can do with it in return more than makes up for it.

I would always put additional restrictions on spell casters just to make sure that everyone doesn't grab a cool VPP like this. But the spells below (and my imagination on how to use them) is why I would want to play a wizard. A 3d6 RKA is cool too, but, for me at least, this little stuff is what makes a wizard fun to play.


<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td>Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 10 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (20 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>3) Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>4) Light Spell: Sight Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>8) Darkness field: Darkness to Hearing Group 2" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>9) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>10) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>11) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>12) Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>13) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>14) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 399 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>16) Frog Jump: Leaping +10" (12"/14" forward, 6"/7" upward) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>17) Start a fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 20

sbarron

Aug 21st, '03, 06:33 AM

Since I have begun fooling around with making a character with the above VPP...what does everyone think is the appropriate number of points that a starting Wizard should spend on his spells? Assuming a 150 point character.

I think I saw someone mention 40 pts as being a pretty competent wizard. I that the general consensus? I think I might go higher, say 60.

Killer Shrike

Aug 21st, '03, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by sbarron
Since I have begun fooling around with making a character with the above VPP...what does everyone think is the appropriate number of points that a starting Wizard should spend on his spells? Assuming a 150 point character.

I think I saw someone mention 40 pts as being a pretty competent wizard. I that the general consensus? I think I might go higher, say 60. At least 75 to be creditable. But that includes ALL things pertaining to being a Wizard, and will vary from Magic System to Magic System. Too subjective for there to be a "perfect" number/amount.

slaughterj

Aug 21st, '03, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by sbarron
I was always a big believer in the small VPP to represent lots of low level spells that make a Wizard cool, and either a MP or just buying spells outright for the more potent/combat spells. Below is a VPP I just put together that only costs 20 points. I realize that is a bunch for a 150 pt character, but I think what he can do with it in return more than makes up for it.

I would always put additional restrictions on spell casters just to make sure that everyone doesn't grab a cool VPP like this. But the spells below (and my imagination on how to use them) is why I would want to play a wizard. A 3d6 RKA is cool too, but, for me at least, this little stuff is what makes a wizard fun to play.


<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td>Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 10 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (20 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>3) Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>4) Light Spell: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>8) Darkness field: Darkness to Hearing Group 2" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>9) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>10) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>11) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>12) Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>13) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>14) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 399 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>16) Frog Jump: Leaping +10" (12"/14" forward, 6"/7" upward) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>17) Start a fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 20

I try to copy and paste the above to a Word file, but to no avail - got that in a doc you can email me?

Seenar

Aug 21st, '03, 08:36 AM

I rather like letting mages use their Magic Power Skill roll to pull off small effects. A Fire mage has no problem lighting fires, for instance, a Northron mage can always chill a drink, or keep food preserved by freezing it etc.

C_Zeree

Aug 21st, '03, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
At least 75 to be creditable. But that includes ALL things pertaining to being a Wizard, and will vary from Magic System to Magic System. Too subjective for there to be a "perfect" number/amount.

Talking active points now.

From your 3E breakdown, wasn't a 150 pt character ~3rd lv in experience? What AP are the mages slinging around now? If the VPP's are 60~75 pts. I never felt 3rd lv mages were slinging around that much power. Just a question about the avg power lv of 1st to 2nd lv spells.

Mages aren't wet behind the ears anymore, but they aren't experience fireball tossers either.

Killer Shrike

Aug 21st, '03, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by C_Zeree
Talking active points now.
Nope, real. Basically about half or more of a Wizards points should be spent on magic IMO.

Originally posted by C_Zeree
From your 3E breakdown, wasn't a 150 pt character ~3rd lv in experience? 2nd IIRC 125 +20 = 145 = 2nd, 145 +15 = 160 = 3rd

However, Im also reevaluating this as I move forward. Ive been working the past 2 weeks on updating my old 2e Conversion, combining it with the incomplete 3e Conversion to make a High Fantasy HERO general resource. Basically there will be a collection of content intended to be used together, and also provided will be conversion spokes for both 2e and 3e. The end result is a xD&D flavored High Fantasy, but very flexible and open to interpretation/spin.

The 3e conversion only needs 1 chart, but the 2e needs several, bcs each class had a different progression rate in AD&D 2e. Also, we used the 2e conversion for 4+ years of play so Im comfortable with their usability, whereas the 3e chart is untested in play. So, once Im finished with the 2e spoke Ill start on the 3e spoke and will reevaluate the Level to CP charts of all concerned and make them all work happily together so that someone could bring in a character from 2e and another person could bring in a character from 3e and they'd all live happily together in the HERO System.

One thing that has been on my mind of late as I slog through the 2e conversion is that 3e characters seem to be more powerful at the low end than 2e characters, slow down a little bit in the middle, comparatively, and then explode in terms of power in later levels. This is becuase of the level stacking and 1 to 20 mentality of 3e, whereas 2e was basically 1 to 10 or so, and then get dribs and drabs of stuff there after -- only the wizard REALLY takes off in 2e. So I may end up bumping the points on the 3e conversions low end. To soon to tell.....

Those interested in contributing and being constructively critical & editorial are welcome to send me their emails and Ill add them to the distribution list. Im releasing nearly daily updates as I work through it and add content. Im concentrating on updating the 2e conversion first as I have quite a bit of verbage available as a starting place from my old conversion, and Ive been expanding that out into general usage as I go.

So far Ive got protos of:
<ol>
<li>The basic Race Packages
<li>Fighters & Exotic Warriors, with 5 Base Packages, a number of Extention Packages, and several Composite Packages built for "Fighters", and all 4 of the "Exotic Warriors", ie Generic Paladins, Rangers, Monks, and Barbarians are done as Composite Packages, using 1 of the Fighter Base Packages, some Extention Packages, and custom abilities.
<li>Rogues, with 5 Base Packages, a number of Extention Packages, and about 8 Composite Packages. Im leaving Bards until the very end of the conversion, or at least until Arcane casters are completely in the box, as they cross too many class boundaries for me to want to tackle them now.
<li>Arcane Magic System (just wrapped that up)
</ol>

Its a web-based body of work, as it is intended to be launched as a web site when finished/ closer to completion. So, those who wish to participate in the development process should be somewhat web savvy.....at least enough to understand how to replicate the directory structure used so that the links work correctly.

Originally posted by C_Zeree
What AP are the mages slinging around now? If the VPP's are 60~75 pts. I never felt 3rd lv mages were slinging around that much power. Just a question about the avg power lv of 1st to 2nd lv spells.

Mages aren't wet behind the ears anymore, but they aren't experience fireball tossers either.

Third level spells are designed to be btwn 46-60 AP in the Magic System I am using; which is 15 AP per Spell Level including 0 level (1-15 AP), 1st (16-30 AP), and 2nd (31-45 AP).

At 60 AP you are looking at a Fireball being a 8d6 N Explosion or a 2d6 K Radius as a good baseline on even dice of effect.

A 3e Wizard gains access to 3rd level spells at 5th character level, which is some where close to 200 character points by the current 3e chart IIRC. By the current Control Cost definition Im using for Wizards that would cost 72 points for the VPP, plus they would need some skills; assuming they took the Scholar Skill Enhancer (and they would be fools not to) a basic INT roll for the 8 Wizard KS Spell Schools (KS: Divination, KS: Evocation, etc) would cost 16, so 19 points there (with the enhancer), and perhaps an Overall Skill level to help out on the rolls, and as a generall good thing to have so 10 more points. So basically, 101 points, or half the character.

AnotherSkip

Aug 21st, '03, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
VPPs are impractical for "Heroic Level" fantasy, no question.

However, I run High Fantasy, so it all works out, particularly at higher point levels.....

i ABSOLUTELY disagree!!!!!

VPP's are essential to low powered fantasy!

the cost to tie up makes this choice essential to the lower powered characters.

look for 22 points I can get a megascaled AOE 1d6 ERKA.
sorry most people do not put that in a MP, in addition by spending the time to change stuff I can narrow that down to whatever "megascaled size" I need.

Sure it don't stop everybody but when they get close I have other tings to use.

the advantages in sheer flexibility are incredible.

+22 Str, then +4 CSL, then +22 PD, Sorry I can stop any one any time I need to If I am ready for the combat.
Change that +4 CSL, +8 Vs Sweep penalties, +8 Vs range penalties (SFX time slows for me) suddenly, IIRC, I am taking 5 shots at +4 OCV at 32" range AT NO PENALTIES PER PHASE.

Veddy Veddy scary.

who needs 60 AC value spells?

Not me.

Killer Shrike

Aug 21st, '03, 11:45 AM

Mileages vary but in my experience anything you can do with a low powered VPP you can do with a MPP for less hassle. {shrug} Ill be the first to admit however that I havent played enough Low Fantasy to definitively rule it out however.

As a side point on the 22 Pool VPP, whats the Control Cost comprised of? if its a combat flexible VPP with at least 1/2 Phase change the control cost is 16 points minus any lims, so the active points is around 38, plus you need a Power Skill for at least 3 points, and if you are offsetting the -2 for switching out the enitire pool, thats 4 more points, plus even at that you have a chance of failure and a 1/2 Phase action involved per switch.

A MPP built on around 45 points (in the same ballpark as the above VPP), with 30 pool and 15 points in ultra slots, with no chance of failure to change slots as a 0 Phase action......granted you sacrifice breadth, but you can still add slots every session unless the GM is real stingy on XP, and to increase the Pool is 1:1. To increase the VPP is 1 + CC : 1, and every 10 AP increase warrants another +1 to the control skill for 2 more points.......

Dont get me wrong, I use VPPs for magic and I think it works out at high levels for certain paradigms, but at low level I would probably opt for the MPP.

sbarron

Aug 21st, '03, 11:47 AM

You could Another Skip, if your GM let you. I wouldn't though. One of the most unbablancing characters I ever GM'd for was a "Combat Mage." He basically bought a bunch of 1/2 phase action spells that he could trigger during segment 12. +15 to STR, +8 to Dex, +4 CSL, etc.

In effect, he built a fighter that got to take limitations on his CHAR and skill levels. He whooped ass big time, sure. But that wasn't fun for anyone else. So I have sinced vowed to not let happen in one of my games again. Mages can cast "SPELLS." They can't buy a bunch of powers lightly veiled under the guise of "magic."

sbarron

Aug 21st, '03, 12:38 PM

Here is a Mage I just put together at work that uses a small VPP and a MP. I think he is pretty well balanced, and has access to a wide variety of spells.

Lucian Cloudchaser

Player:

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Char   </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>STR</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">17  </td><td>DEX</td><td>21</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15  </td><td>CON</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10  </td><td>BODY</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18  </td><td>INT</td><td>8</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>EGO</td><td>6</td></tr><tr><td align="right">13  </td><td>PRE</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10  </td><td>COM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">6  </td><td>PD</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">6  </td><td>ED</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">3  </td><td>SPD</td><td>3</td></tr><tr><td align="right">6  </td><td>REC</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30  </td><td>END</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25  </td><td>STUN</td><td>0</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">6"  </td><td>RUN</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"  </td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2 1/2"  </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 54

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">15  </td><td>Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 5 control cost (15 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>3) Smoke Cloud: Darkness to Sight Group 1" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>4) Mind over Matter: Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>8) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>9) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>10) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>11) Shrinking: Shrinking (0.9271 m tall, 0.4636 m wide, 10.2058 kg mass, -2 PER Rolls to perceive character, +2 DCV, +3" KB) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>12) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 327 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>13) Ships Through Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>14) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>16) Frog Jump: Leaping 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>17) Reardare's Flame: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>19) Detect Magic: Detect A Single Thing 15-, Range (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>20) Light Spell: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5 </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">15  </td><td>Wizard Spells: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots: (45 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time Full Phase (-1/2), Side Effects (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>1) Magwem's Mighty Wings: Flight 15" (30 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>2) Smitty's Invisible Hand: Telekinesis (30 STR) (45 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>3) Summon Fog Bank: Darkness to Sight and Sight Groups 3" radius (40 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>4) Darius' Magic Render: Dispel 15d6 (45 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>5) Fretta's FIre Storm: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2) (45 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>6) Lorenda's Lightning Lance: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (45 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>7) Freagle's Frosty Force: Energy Blast 9d6 (vs. ED) (45 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>8) Identify Magic : Detect Magic 13-, Analyze, Discriminatory, Range (18 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 38

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Bureaucratics 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Concealment 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Paramedic 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>Cryptography (Only to translate languages) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Stealth 12- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Spell Research 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>PS: Wizard-for-hire 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">9  </td><td>Magic Skill (INT-based) 16- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">6  </td><td>+2 with Wizard Spells </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>WF: Blades, Thrown Knives, Axes, and Darts </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>LS: Ancient Dikeeny (basic conversation) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>AK: Coasts of Talorne 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>AK: City of Westgate 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Scholar </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2  </td><td>1) KS: Arcane Lore (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>2) KS: Wizards Guild Traditions and Laws (2 Active Points) 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>3) KS: Enchanted Items (2 Active Points) 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>4) KS: Myths and Legends (2 Active Points) 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1  </td><td>5) KS: Magical Creatures (2 Active Points) 11- </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 49

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Perk</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3  </td><td>Member of Wizards Guild </td></tr></table>Perks Cost: 3

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost  </td><td>Talent</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">6  </td><td>Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED) </td></tr></table>Talents Cost: 6

Total Character Cost: 150

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val  </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Oath of Fealty to High Wizard Marius, Lord of Westgate (Very Common; Moderate) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Adventurous (Common; Moderate) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Reputation: Wizard of Westgate 11- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Hunted: Watched by Wizards of Westgate 8- (Mo Pow; Watching; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15  </td><td>Hunted: Gragle the Ogre (slaver) 8- (As Pow; Harshly Punish; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10  </td><td>Rivalry: Professional (Jarrod Hellspine, High Wizard of the Point; Rival is More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">5  </td><td>Distinctive Features: Magical Aura (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Normal Characteristic Maxima </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 75

Base Points: 75
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

AnotherSkip

Aug 21st, '03, 01:23 PM

Okies now then , I m gonna point out a few things:

1. for Years i resisted the Combat Mage, finally the Gm started throwing things (or we ran into) things that required that.
Prior to the CSL's versatility I was using Nightvision on everyone in the group ( okies we have 0 night penalties and they have -4 to see us, good luck to them _WE_ have stealth), Healing (under 4th) and Precog(the Gm had an exception to the VPP rules I won't go into).
2. I Don't switch in combat typically. I have a broad enough character (weighing in at 200 +points w/a 14-roll to change a 22-24 point VPP, 75+75+XP) who is definately _not_ a wuss that I can stand up one on one with 50 point orcs and expect to win w/out the VPP.
3. What you do or do not typically allow does not really enter into it. I agree that some combo's can be exploitative, but then again i feel the Combat Mage was fair because the GM had us being opposed by 3000 Beastiary Zombies (and my VPP could not be used directly against them....for a SFX reason....)
Also any Player worth his salt will not abuse a VPP lest the Gm build Clones.....
4. i easily use 20+ different spells a night probably 10 of those are new for that night. No MP can keep pace with that. Even adding 5 spells per session I _might_ be able to do half of what i want to do but then again my spells are not my only resource, heck I got 15 Xp last session(which you would have me place in spells) I saved 6, bought up a few skills and a whomping huge contact
5. Mp's are good for high stuff, don't get me wrong I use them frequently too, but for a real generalist (my preference) _nothing_ beats a VPP. I use Aids, Heals, Moves, TK, sure they are all low, and not very effective (Till you megascale Teleport)but a good package of choices will allow you to do more than ever before. Esp with the new "critical strikes " options(upgrading from 1 1/2 to 2d killing for only five points? oh Yeaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!)
6. Let's run over Skills shall we? to control a 30 point MP with at best 15 Spells you need 0 to change but still need to cast it at -3 to your skill roll to actually get the spell off I only need to cast at a -2 (admitedly it is only at 24 AC but still I can fine tune that a lot more than you can) so I have 24 Real +6 control cost + infinite spell selection you have 15 "Pool"+ 15 Spells, need one more Skill level in the MSR than I do and are kinda stuck.
So you buy more spells... While i can buy all sorts of other things and be More ready than you are for the next adventure. Also Your spells will sooner or later Overlap( Do i go with the Killing, the Normal Explosion or the NND?, is this a Force field, Damage Resistance or Force Wall day ?).

And most likely you are "buying" more Spells _after_ the adventure. Uhmmm fat lot of good that does you, when you are facing a Flame Atronach and your Fireball just gets Absorbed......
While my IceBolt does double damage, because i had everyone defend me while i switched stuff around.....

Killer Shrike

Aug 21st, '03, 03:47 PM

Hmm....you are taking a lot of circumstances which are true to your campaign and blanketing them outside of their scope.

1) How were you granting Nightvision to other? Nightvision UBO Simultaneously at Range x4 Targets, or some other method? Was this not occupying your entire pool? Was Nightvision an uncommon commodity in a Fantasy setting (where many races possess it or a variant innately)?

2) By not switching in combat, you have to admit that this is a significant loss of the touted flexibility of a VPP. An instant speed MPP is much more reliable and tactically oriented than an out-of-combat speed VPP.

4 a) New slots: definitely the strength of the VPP option, but I really dont see a huge amount of difference in having lots of 22 AP powers. You reach a point where the difference btwn 1 spell and another is negligible. At a certain point fewer bigger powers will be more efficient. Or even just heavy use of Variable Advantage and/or Variable SFX for a few weenie power replicators.

4 b) 15 experience in one session? :eek: Well, ok then. Thats 3 times more than the most that Ive ever given out or seen given out for a single session, but Ill assume that it was a lump sum for many sessions of play.

5) Many GMs are resistant to Megascale movement and dont allow it bcs it is very open to abuse. That aside, you can still do all of those things with MP slots. You dont need 15 ways of doing any particular thing; you only need 1 good way.

6a) You are assuming that the slots in the MPP or the MPP itself have RSR. By default they do not; if they do then there are even more points to play with, so either more powerful slots or more slots. I would opt not to have a skill roll, and go for reliability.

6b) Are you familiar with the Advantages "Variable Advantage" and "Variable SFX"?

6c) Pick a defense and make it a good one. It cant be Armor or DR bcs its in a MPP, FW is limited in its usefulness, so ergo, FF.

Also, what controls does your GM have in place to prevent endless casting? Any? And how open is the VPP? Can you just put anyspell you want in it, or do you have to research these spells, or learn them in some fashion?

AnotherSkip

Aug 22nd, '03, 03:21 PM

1. yup on the Nightvison Question, About half of it was occupado, remember, that -1 in limitations was applying to both the control and the individual power, once it is up it is up so I just needed a few moments to get it in gear.. I also for many combats had Healing "up" to prevent loss of life. Also if you don't mind occupying the entire pool, linking multible AVLD attacks works wonders. Nightvision is an uncommon power especially against the people we were facing. (humans are not typically blessed with Nightvision, Orcs OTOH...)

2. Any Mage worth his salt should plan ahead, as far ahead as possible(and with Precog that is _very_ far). Another thing to do is to Aid your people with long term Aids. Tactically I have never had a problem with, say, a 10 point switch in the middle of combat. I usually make do with what I have (often to surprising success) by getting a grab bag of lower powers (5" Superleap, +1/2HKA Adder/+10 STR, +2 CV's etc...) TK Being my bane, but even then still useful. Usually my character buffs my allies rather than "Fireball, Fireball, Fireball...."
4A) unfortuneatly with the "Varible X" abilities you are cutting off your own nose, with a 60 point active cap (for instance) to get varibility you only have varibility with 40 or so points IIRC. if it costs a quarter you hit 4d6 with a 25 point MP (as a minor example) I'm still knocking out 5d6
4B a MAJOR sucess after 8 weeks of planning and skirmishing (destroying 2000 out of 3000 Undead and saving 500+ Villiagers, when the intial Precog was "every villager dies, becomes Zombies and marches on to attack our Lands, making them 3800 strong...")
5) Agreed on the resistance, in fact im resistant to it, but the need was pretty strong. the Gm did it or dramatic reasons
6) you are tying up double the Advantage while I would not be, you should have 2 attack powers, one at "max Strength" and one with "varibility", the varibility will allways be less, and by default less desireable.
I believe that any disads on the main part of a pool ( of any type) apply to all of the "slots" IIRC, if not what makes you so sure the Gm won't require those on the slots anyways? :)

Also in MP's construction Disad's are less useful pointswise, you eventually reach a point of no return. With a VPP that is much less ikely the case encouraging me to come up with interesting disads......

rayoman

Aug 22nd, '03, 05:35 PM

For all of you that allow VPPs and MPs for Mages, I have a question.

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

If the answer is no then why do you allow Mages to use them? Does this seem fair?

OddHat

Aug 22nd, '03, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by rayoman
For all of you that allow VPPs and MPs for Mages, I have a question.

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't you?

Originally posted by rayoman

If the answer is no then why do you allow Mages to use them? Does this seem fair?

Life is unfair.

Blue Jogger

Aug 22nd, '03, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by rayoman
Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

In a way, they already do. I've seen an Half-Orge with exceptional strength (30) and its fantastic fighting ability of slaying a minor demon that the magic characters (a mage and a cleric) were helpless against. The spells were low level (20 active) and the Half-Orge had his amazing 2D6 Great Sword (4D6 w/STR or 60 active). That plus his combat levels (which went into OCV) and his massively heavy armor (which is why he didn't worry about DCV) made him unstoppable.

Especially with FREd, a fighter can have many fantastic fighting abilities such as Two-Hand Weapon Fighting. That with bonuses to Sweep and you can wade into a crowd with fantastic ability.

There's also different manuevers for Elfs with Autofire. :D

But there's nothing wrong with the classic magical sword done with a Multipower.

Edit: Most Fantasy Hero games I've seen, all players had some magic or fantastic ability.

AnotherSkip

Aug 24th, '03, 07:23 PM

there is a somewhat viable argument thath STR is a Multipower and Martial arts are Multipowers with "frozen" slots.

besides Martial artists get a break because they can have 18 manuvers and 20 weapons and only buy 3 point levels to do it all.
baby.

i cant buy anything less than a 5 point level in a multipower

Mr. Negative

Aug 24th, '03, 09:03 PM

On the subtopic of making VPPs viable in low fantasy, I'd like to point out two things that others may or may not have noticed.

First, looking at a VPP like the one listed by sbarron above (fantastic list of spells by the way) should make something clear. While these spells are certainly not impressive in a High Magic setting, in a low fantasy or swords and sorcery setting, this wizard is very impressive. He has defenses, life support, movement powers, illusions...all kinds of useful stuff that the fighters and rogues don't have. All for 20 points! This wizard is a fantastic "Swiss Army Knife" character, and can have even more versality just by designing more spells. Given that the FH mages generally are written up with 40 points in spells, this guy could have a 1d6+1 killing attack, a 4d6 Energy Blast, etc...

If there is actually very low magic, then the magic this wizard is capable of will be pretty useful. It may not be "ZAP! He's dead!" useful, but I certainly wouldn't mind having him around.

Secondly, I think that low fantasy and "low powered" fantasy are getting mixed up a bit. It is quite possible to have 250+ point Low Fantasy characters (Conan, etc) and 150 point High Fantasy Characters. It is, admittedly, VERY DIFFICULT (probably impossible) to simulate the powerful spells of High Fantasy with low points total wizards using standard VPPs. The Active Point Totals will be a wash. However, that's not necessarily a flaw of the idea. I myself like it.

I don't look at a 150 point wizard and see him doing the standard 3rd level D&D wizard stuff (fireball, etc.) I see him instead as a beginning wizard, or an accomplished wizard of not much raw power. The wizard doesn't conceptually have to compete with the warrior in terms of sheer killyness. That may be the style you want in your game, where ultimately, both characters toss out 8 DCs of Killing damage to their foes. That's a valid choice, and it works for many groups. The multipower (or the free points systems in FH ) are probably the way to go for that.

If however, you see the wizard as being more capable of accomplishing things that cannot be brought about without magic, even if those things aren't themselves overtly powerful, that's another interesting conception for sorcery. I think too many players are seduced into thinking "how many points of damage can my character do?" instead of "what can my character accomplish?"

On the other hand, if you really want to simulate particular, specific spell effects from novels or other games, the active points are quite often going to be too high to make normal VPPs feasible.

If that isn't a problem for your conception, the VPP can really work. Looking at the "Wizard" Package deal, if you drop the 40 points of spells, you have a package that costs 41 points (even though you don't really need such a stellar spell roll, since the previously mentioned one doesn't require a skill roll to change). Spend 49 points on "wizardly" stats like those of Valerius the harper (also in the book). You now have 60 points left over for a 150 point character. Give him a 25 point VPP pool (as sbarron's above, with a 25 point control cost) and you still have an additional 10 points to customize the character. Using Sbarron's pool as a template, this wizard could have a 5d6 EB, a 1.5d6 RKA, 15 STR TK, 10 PD/10 ED Force Field, and a 10"+ teleport. Heck, he could even have 10PD/10 ED and +5d6 HA at the same time! Tell me that's not effective!

(If you want a little more "flavor" give the mage both No Skill Roll and No Time Required and balance this with Variable Limitations -1. This will mean every spell has to have -2 in total limitations, so you will get lots of Incantations, Gestures, Foci, Side Effects, Skill Rolls, etc. The "cosmic" nature of the pool, however, will mean that a wizard with such a pool can unlock a door one minute, and cook dinner the next, then cook an ork shortly thereafter.)

My long-winded point is that, while YOUR magic system may indeed not work in a VPP structure, there are a great deal of flexible, potent, interesting systems that do. The fact that a VPP doesn't allow you to create the spell that you are envisioning doesn't make VPPs a bad idea. Even if they aren't what you were intending, you might be suprised at how interesting VPP magic systems are. They don't have the same type of magic that many players are used to (D&D), but that's both a hindrance and a benefit. I've had more than a few players react with suprise and delight when "getting" the magic that a VPP system produces.

tetsujin28

Aug 25th, '03, 12:00 AM

Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

Mr. Negative

Aug 25th, '03, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

Markdoc

Aug 26th, '03, 03:45 AM

>>For all of you that allow VPPs and MPs for Mages, I have a question.
Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?<<<

Oh, absolutely. In fact, it was fighters clamouring for multipowers who persuaded me to try them on the game in the first place.

Secondly, on the VPP vs Multipower debate, I have both in my games. There is no doubt that the MP gives more bang for the buck and lets you toss out bigger spells.

Equally however, my experience has shown prety clearly that VPPs give the mage more flexibility: most of the debate here has focussed on combat. But it's OUT of combat where the VPP shines and a clever adept (my term for VPP-using mages) can spring some nasty surprises on the MP-using mage with a little foresight.

VPPs can be a problem if you rely on cunning traps and so on. A smart player with a little time can often come up with a way around them. MPs are more of a problem in combat heavy games, where they promote the "mage as heavy weapons system" approach. If you have balanced approach they both give you problems :D

cheers, Mark

Michael Hopcroft

Aug 26th, '03, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.:(

Damon_Dusk

Aug 26th, '03, 08:57 AM

I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.

Well, even though I don't have a lot of posts to my name, I for one am interested in this thread as well as many others. I wouldn't worry about one person out of the many who have posted here and who are interested in this discussion. I'm getting a lot of good ideas from this thread for when I work on my own magic system, so keep 'em coming! :)

slaughterj

Aug 26th, '03, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Blue Jogger
Edit: Most Fantasy Hero games I've seen, all players had some magic or fantastic ability.

Interesting, in a large number of FH games I've played in or run, NONE of the players had magic or fantastic ability ;)

slaughterj

Aug 26th, '03, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Negative
Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

See, now you know :rolleyes:

VPPs can be useful for certain FH campaigns. However, the nature of the campaign will dictate which method is the best to use to emulate spells, e.g., VPP, MP, EC, or point-buy. VPPs have the additional issue beyond the others in that it needs to be determined what can be cast at whim vs. what needs to be learned in order to be able to cast - the other methods have this controlled by the requirement of points to be spent. Without a lot of front-work, VPPs could be troublesome. Also, VPPs can be more difficult for a GM to handle, unless the available spells are pre-determined, else someone could whip up a spell on the fly that will throw a major kink into a game session.

GamePhil

Aug 26th, '03, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

That's one opinion. It's certainly not mine. VPP's when properly controlled by a competent gamemaster can add help support a variety of flavors of magic, especially ones where the spells can be modified fairly easily. For example, 2nd and 3rd Editions of D&D have built in the ability to greatly modify the spells to the point that a VPP becomes attractive (especially 2nd, where the modifications were done by spells rather than Feats).

GamePhil

Aug 26th, '03, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by rayoman
Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

Warriors get free equipment, the cost break of STR and CON, and the inexpensive Martial Arts Maneuvers. None of these are accessible by the typical mage conception. I don't see any unfairness even if I didn't allow them to also have access to Power Frameworks.

However, yes, if a warrior needed abilities that could not be simulated by some combination of these things, I would certainly allow appropriate Power Frameworks to deal with it.

GamePhil

Aug 26th, '03, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Negative
Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

Hmm, in case you weren't being ironic: this is no longer the case. The current edition of FH advises against it for many games, but does not actually disallow it.

tetsujin28

Aug 26th, '03, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.:( I don't remember you saying anything in the least bit offensive. You asked for opinions, and many people have voiced theirs. There's nothing wrong with that - that's what game-related message boards are for. Remember that gamers tend to be an opinionated and contentious lot to begin with, especially on a subject like VPPs, which have been the subject of more discussion than nearly anything else since they came out in Champions II. (The only thing I can think of that's caused nearly as many arguments is the cheap cost of STR.) Hero players are alot like Talmudic scholars - we gain pleasure from the minutiae of the rules. Also like Talmudic scholars, we can get into some pretty heated arguments. But in the end, all that argument is over something we love, to whit, the Hero system.

My opinion on VPPs in Fantasy Hero is that they're not worth the trouble they cause, in terms of added complexity, game balance issues, and time wasted at the table. If you have players who are willing to devote lots of time to pre-prepared lists of spells for every occasion, then it can work. But few players are willing to do this, and it just causes more headaches than its worth. I also feel that the VPP/MP mage, unless heavily restricted, becomes a game-busting "bag o' tricks", being able to add extremely useful abilities (Life Support, Change Environment, Desolid, &c.) either at a whim (VPP) or with the addition of hardly any points at all (MP with an ultra slot).

GamePhil

Aug 26th, '03, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
If you have players who are willing to devote lots of time to pre-prepared lists of spells for every occasion, then it can work.

That isn't necessarily the case. A typical example, and the one Michael is going for I believe, is the "minor magic" pool, where the exact effects in game mechanics can be glossed over a bit (eg. say a Mending spell is a Transform, the exact dice isn't needed because it will do the job). Another possibility is having modified spells: you only have a relatively few spells, but you can change certain specifics of them. This would be a short list of basic effects, click into place the Advantage you want from another list, and throw the spell.

And so on. I as GM would usually be the one designing these.

But few players are willing to do this, and it just causes more headaches than its worth. I also feel that the VPP/MP mage, unless heavily restricted, becomes a game-busting "bag o' tricks", being able to add extremely useful abilities (Life Support, Change Environment, Desolid, &c.) either at a whim (VPP) or with the addition of hardly any points at all (MP with an ultra slot).

Just depends on how flexible you want a given mage to be. A lot of the time, the bag 'o tricks approach is very appropriate to a setting, and in my experience only rarely is imbalanced with the skill/equipment based characters. But there are some specific *players* I've had I would never allow one of these, because they'll bog down the game trying to get things out of that VPP that I have repeatedly told them are inappropriate for their special effect.

Still, the inflexibility of the old Fantasy HERO is one of the things that have gotten even HERO fans to turn to other systems for their fantasy fix. Part of the reason I like Power Frameworks.

tetsujin28

Aug 26th, '03, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by GamePhil
Another possibility is having modified spells: you only have a relatively few spells, but you can change certain specifics of them. This would be a short list of basic effects, click into place the Advantage you want from another list, and throw the spell. Couldn't you replicate this by simply using the Variable advantage advantage?

GamePhil

Aug 26th, '03, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Couldn't you replicate this by simply using the Variable advantage advantage?

Possibly, but it again depends on specifics. For example, say I want a Flame Burst spell, and I want it to be able to be a 6d6 EB or a 4d6 Explosion or a 3d6 NND (defense is LS vs. Heat). This does not fit the normal Variable Advantage model because the base power is changing, and is more reasonable than a 6d6 EB with a +1 Variable Advantage.

It can be done. 6d6 EB, +1 Variable Advantage, Only Up To 30 Active Points (-1). But that seems a little odd when Power Frameworks exist, and this is only the most trivial example. If the character wants to be able to focus the blast into a Killing Attack, it becomes still more iffy, though of course a second Power can be purchased (should take a Limitation: No MPA, though, since it is just the same spell with a different usage).

AnotherSkip

Aug 26th, '03, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.
That's nice .

now then not every Champions, Dark Champions, or Superpowered character has a framework. Sure they are nice especially for building characters that "forget' they have certain powers. But i just as easily built a 250 point 4th ed character with as without and now it is just as easy, especially since alot of the frameworks are better understood.

Also how does someone build a "game busting" power? They are all in the book right? Anything you can build in an MP or VPP you can point build just as easily if not easier.
unless you are doing some rather poor planning on the villians/NPC's part you should be prepared for the players to surprise you, VPP, MP, EC, or no. If you can't plan that well, write stories, the characters do what you tell them to, don't shoot holes in the plot, and you generally have less arguments.

Secondly if you don't want the big powers(Desolid, Precog, etc...) dont use big frameworks.

besides give the Villians Frameworks, the worst guy we ever faced one on one was an opposing wizard who had a VPP (he multiformed into a huge scarab beatle and tried to kill me while ignoring my friend thumping his armored hide).

tetsujin28

Aug 26th, '03, 05:28 PM

Notice what the first words in my post were: "Not to be mean." Nothing in my post was a personal attack on anyone. By "It's not Champions, so just live with it," I was drawing on many years of Hero experience (I co-wrote some of the powers that found their way into Champions II), and the fact that VPPs (and other power frameworks) were never designed to work in any setting other than Champions. It would appear that some members of this board have even thinner skins than most gamers. My opinion was asked, and I gave it. Based on my experience running Hero in a fantasy context for more than 20 years, my reply is still to not allow VPPs or MPs in a fantasy context. They're just too powerful.

Re: no power being able to be "game-busting". A power can easily be over-effective if it does too many things too well for too little cost, which is what power frameworks do in FH, especially VPPs and MPs with ultra slots. What especially happens is the D&D syndrome of skills being replaced by magic and magic items.

Mordacius

Aug 26th, '03, 08:30 PM

tetsujin28:
I don't agree with you about Power Frameworks, but I can understand most of where you're coming from about them being too effective. Not been my experience at all, but you're certainly entitled to feel differently.

This is the part that I find odd, though:

By "It's not Champions, so just live with it," I was drawing on many years of Hero experience (I co-wrote some of the powers that found their way into Champions II), and the fact that VPPs (and other power frameworks) were never designed to work in any setting other than Champions.
I don't see a difference in balance issues between those two genres. Why do VPPs work for you in one, and not the other?

Korvar

Aug 26th, '03, 11:57 PM

The thing I like about VPPs is limiting the "change points" condition to "several hours sat down with a book". So the mage has to choose ahead of time what spells to take, meaning their spell choice isn't always appropriate for the situation they face. Is there a suggested way of applying that to Multipowers?

A "cosmic" VPP or even a "skill roll to change" VPP is very flexible and powerful (and costs!), but even that can be suitable for certain High Fantasy - which can be close enough to Champions anyway.

James Gillen

Aug 27th, '03, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by GamePhil
Still, the inflexibility of the old Fantasy HERO is one of the things that have gotten even HERO fans to turn to other systems for their fantasy fix. Part of the reason I like Power Frameworks.

Which I think is a major factor here. Most people I've seen debate conversions of other fantasy systems have resorted to VPPs in order to convert the magic systems.

Personally, I'd define magic VPPs much like Gadget Pools in Champions- not a "pool of do anything you want", but a pool that covers a lot of miscellaneous capabilities that it is no longer cost efficient to represent with separate spells or Multipowers. That is, if you've spent so many points on Multipower slots that you might as well convert them to the Base Cost of a VPP, then that's the time to do it.

IMO, a beginning character shouldn't have a pool, and a beginning HERO player shouldn't have one until he's familiar enough with the system to know how it works. In story terms, most beginning mages know a few separate effects. By the time the character is skilled enough to channel effects at will (Rand in Wheel of Time, Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.) the character in game terms will have enough experience (and Experience Points) to make the transition to VPP worthwhile AND justified in terms of story background.

If VPPs seem too powerful, remember that they normally require an extra action and a Skill Roll to change over. For most fantasy (i.e. simulating D&D-type stuff) the 'Cosmic' Advantages shouldn't be allowed. Most casters can't simply make up spells on the fly; 'arcane' casters need to consult their books to change the VPP, meaning also that they are limited to the spells that they've actually researched- i.e. only those the GM allowed him to have or that he made up with Inventor/Spell Research (ultimately, the same). Clerics would only have those powers their god allowed, meaning that they're even more under GM control.

Basically, in HERO System, with great power comes great responsibility. The GM has more freedom to design the parameters of his game system than with any other rules, but that also means weighing how things would work without relying on some designers' notion of "game balance."

Hope this helps.

JG

Talon

Aug 27th, '03, 07:45 AM

I used VPPs for starting characters -- but they were heavily limited VPPs, where you had to get a KS for each spell you could do, and then use the KS if you wanted to improvise small variations to the spell. Beginning players were sheltered from the hazards of VPPs because they had to have writeups for every spell they had a KS for, and experienced players could use the KS to tweak the writeups if they wanted to.

tetsujin28

Aug 27th, '03, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by James Gillen
Most people I've seen debate conversions of other fantasy systems have resorted to VPPs in order to convert the magic systems.
JG An excellent point. Whilst I don't see the base FH magic system as "inflexible", it's true that for some conversions there's no way around the VPP. As an example, my two favourite magic systems, that found in Pendragon and the dynamic sorcery power from Big Eyes Small Mouth, are both best represented by VPPs.

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

GamePhil

Aug 27th, '03, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
An excellent point. Whilst I don't see the base FH magic system as "inflexible", it's true that for some conversions there's no way around the VPP. As an example, my two favourite magic systems, that found in Pendragon and the dynamic sorcery power from Big Eyes Small Mouth, are both best represented by VPPs.

Which would be an indicator that by comparison to these other games, FH mages are less flexible. Which further means that to create a new magic system which is as flexible as these other systems, VPP's or other Power Frameworks will be necessary. So it certainly has uses for areas outside of conversion, such as the minor magic pool that Michael originally asked about.

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

I have no idea of the point of this paragraph. It appears to be anecdotal evidence from your own gaming group to support your position. I could get a group of people of like years in the game who disagree, but what on earth would be the point? If having decades of Hero experience under one's belt meant anything, many of us would be in happy agreement about everything.

tetsujin28

Aug 27th, '03, 03:39 PM

The point being: they're not worth the trouble. If I really want to use BESM or Pendragon magic, it's best to play those games and play to their strong points. Hero's strong point has never been spontaneity, but rather its intellectual rigour.

AnotherSkip

Aug 27th, '03, 03:44 PM

Whilist i agree with the opinion the anecdotal information is relatively worthless. The therory expressed by Tetsujin28 that the Frameworks are too powerful just points out how problematic STR is in a fantasy campaign. if frameworks are too powerful (and keeping in mind that the BBB espoused the VPP for certain kinds of magic!) then STR really needs to be adjusted in some fashion. And these adjustments and denials then bring to light that possibly HERO isn't truly suited to every genre!
There are some things however that are useful in moderation. a 60 point "Cosmic" VPP on a 150 point Heroic character is a problem. a 15 point limited "non-cosmic" VPP on a 150 point Heroic Character is not terribly dangerous. Especially if what he was doing could be found through other sources of magic and equipment.

as for the statement about Looking to magic and Magic items first. This happens quite frequently in many games and is as likely to happen in pointed out spells as frameworks. Even in a campaign where there is magic items to be found this can happen.

tetsujin28

Aug 27th, '03, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by GamePhil
Which would be an indicator that by comparison to these other games, FH mages are less flexible. Which further means that to create a new magic system which is as flexible as these other systems, VPP's or other Power Frameworks will be necessary. So it certainly has uses for areas outside of conversion, such as the minor magic pool that Michael originally asked about. This is just a facile rebuttal that misses the point. If I were to try to create a fireball in Pendragon, the GM would have every right to look at me as if I were out of my mind. Does that mean that the Pendragon magic system is "inflexible"? Hardly. It simply means that its magic system is better at some things (Arthurian-style magic) than others (D&D-style magic). Likewise, Hero is better at a "these are the rules" style of magic than an "anything goes", Amber style.

Trying to make Hero like BESM or Pendragon is as bad as trying to make those two games like Hero. They're different beasts.

AnotherSkip

Aug 27th, '03, 05:27 PM

Well aside from the fact you are kind of missing the point look on this thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6777

you will notice two characters posted by me.
the Druid character was the sole party "magician" for over two years. He was constantly reviled for his lack of ability to do anything killing wise, (after all 24 points is not even a 5d6 EB!!!) while the other characters were keeping "kill counts" well into the double digits i was surprised when i managed to kill the tied up (and damaged to half body) enemy mage prisoner (he Mentally attacked a friend i was in a mind link with while I was in the other room). I was pretty proud of the fact that after a year and a half i had actually managed to kill _SOMETHING_!!!!! ( later i got arrested, tried, branded on the face had my tounge and thumbs removed and was sentenced to death for this as well as a few other crimes.

and it was with a sword of all things (I had mindlink up as well as a detect magic spell looking for treasure).

the forty or so points could have been in Combat effective stuff and i would have been much better off with say a 4-6d6 BBB Single healing spell!!!!

GamePhil

Aug 27th, '03, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
This is just a facile rebuttal that misses the point. If I were to try to create a fireball in Pendragon, the GM would have every right to look at me as if I were out of my mind. Does that mean that the Pendragon magic system is "inflexible"? Hardly. It simply means that its magic system is better at some things (Arthurian-style magic) than others (D&D-style magic). Likewise, Hero is better at a "these are the rules" style of magic than an "anything goes", Amber style.

Facile: Done or achieved with little effort or difficulty; easy. Working, acting, or speaking with effortless ease and fluency.

Why, thank you. I'll just assume you meant one of those definitions.

I never said that any of these systems were inflexible. I said that FH mages were, or at least could be. Subtle difference, but very important. The system can do anything, but a given mage can be very restricted by, for example, requiring each spell be purchased. If that's good for you, great, if it's not, then there is no reason not to allow a bit more of the actual *rules* into the game. It certainly wasn't good for a number of people I've met that didn't care for the relative "weakness" (in quotes due to my general disagreement) of mages and moved to other systems (anecdotal evidence only brought as a counterexample, not as proof of "correctness").

I also said that if you want to translate a magic system over and need to use a VPP, then it is likely that other magic systems may need to use such a construct. And, since I would prefer to play and run HERO over any system I am familiar with, I see no reason to chuck it all just because I need to use a VPP.

I prefer HERO. I can do these things you are indicating in HERO. Thus, while you may be unwilling (note: not unable, just unwilling, I'm not being insulting) to do so, I'm perfectly happy to, especially with the wealth of material there is to draw on to save me work.

GamePhil

Aug 27th, '03, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
if frameworks are too powerful (and keeping in mind that the BBB espoused the VPP for certain kinds of magic!) then STR really needs to be adjusted in some fashion.

Absolutely true. Which is why I don't adjust any of them. They tend to have the ability to balance each other out, in my experience. If I removed one, I'd have to adjust the other. So I'll allow just about anything.

Hey, it's worked so far.

tetsujin28

Aug 27th, '03, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
Whilist i agree with the opinion the anecdotal information is relatively worthless. The therory expressed by Tetsujin28 that the Frameworks are too powerful just points out how problematic STR is in a fantasy campaign. if frameworks are too powerful (and keeping in mind that the BBB espoused the VPP for certain kinds of magic!) then STR really needs to be adjusted in some fashion. And these adjustments and denials then bring to light that possibly HERO isn't truly suited to every genre! Agreed. I don't think Hero works for every genre. I think it's especially poorly suited for horror, frex. And STR has been unbalanced from the get-go.

tetsujin28

Aug 28th, '03, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by GamePhil
Facile: Done or achieved with little effort or difficulty; easy. Working, acting, or speaking with effortless ease and fluency.

Why, thank you. I'll just assume you meant one of those definitions. "specious, superficial...lacking sincerity or depth"

RadeFox

Aug 28th, '03, 10:42 AM

My GM and I (soon to be GM again), recently decided to pretty much make STR and INT cost 2 pts per 1 pt gained to mostly even out the Statistics imbalances. Once done, I made things flow a lot smoother, and really went a looong way to helping me keep Hero system as my system of choice. :)

Dont take our words for it! Try it now, for yourself in your next game, and see! :)

tetsujin28

Aug 28th, '03, 01:40 PM

Not to get too off-track, but for my next campaign I was going to "fold" STR, CON, and BODY into one stat costing 6 pts., and INT and EGO into another costing 3, doing away with COM entirely. I've also eliminated SPD.

AnotherSkip

Aug 28th, '03, 01:56 PM

Okies what are ya doing?
Playing V&V?
D&D Compendium?
Something else?

are ya dropping some figureds?

PhilFleischmann

Aug 28th, '03, 02:59 PM

I realize as I read these posts that you can't really talk about VPPs as if they were one thing. A "cosmic" VPP is totally different in terms of the way it works, balance, and impact on the game, than one that can only be changed after hours of spellbook study/meditation/prayer/work in the alchemy lab. Likewise a mimic pool is a totally different animal than a single "flexible spell" whose many (or few) applications are best simulated by a VPP.

These should almost be treated like different framworks when deciding whether they should be allowed in any particular game or genre.

There is also the danger of mistaking problems with the content of a power framework (the actual powers which may be unbalanced or abusive) as opposed to the framwork itself.

tetsujin28

Aug 28th, '03, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
Okies what are ya doing?
Playing V&V?
D&D Compendium?
Something else?

are ya dropping some figureds? It's just a thing I'd be doing with any Hero games I ran. The time is long past when 13-stat games were state of the art. So I combined STR, CON, and BODY into one stat, BODY, costing 6 points, and EGO and INT into one stat, MIND, costing 3 points. Comeliness is eliminated, PRE and DEX are left alone. The only figured I was planning on dropping was SPD. For the Exalted game, I would add Essence (which would be MIND x 2, 1/2 per additional point.

I had been thinking of doing away with STUN, as well, but I haven't gotten around to it.

Hugh Neilson

Aug 28th, '03, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
So I combined STR, CON, and BODY into one stat, BODY, costing 6 points, and EGO and INT into one stat, MIND, costing 3 points.

YMMV. Personally, I like the ability to have a tough hero who's not necessarily all that strong, a strong character who may not have a high BOD, a smart character with limited willpower (or vice versa), etc. I think Hero does a great job of segregating these abilities to allow customization. Merging them takes out a lot of that customization.

May as well merge EB's and RKA's/martial arts, hand attacks and HKA's while you're at it. No sense them looking any different - they're all ways to do damage at range/in HTH.

Killer Shrike

Aug 28th, '03, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
I realize as I read these posts that you can't really talk about VPPs as if they were one thing. A "cosmic" VPP is totally different in terms of the way it works, balance, and impact on the game, than one that can only be changed after hours of spellbook study/meditation/prayer/work in the alchemy lab. Likewise a mimic pool is a totally different animal than a single "flexible spell" whose many (or few) applications are best simulated by a VPP.

These should almost be treated like different framworks when deciding whether they should be allowed in any particular game or genre.

There is also the danger of mistaking problems with the content of a power framework (the actual powers which may be unbalanced or abusive) as opposed to the framwork itself. {nods affirmatively, then gets back to work on Fantasy HERO material ;)}

tetsujin28

Aug 28th, '03, 11:45 PM

In an effort not to hijack this thread, my reply has been moved here. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7375)

John Desmarais

Aug 29th, '03, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by tetsujin28

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

By way of contrast - I could call the same number of folks that I have gamed with, with similar or greater years of experience,ask the same question, and get the response "We do it all the time." Everyone's mileage varies.

Personally, I have found VPPs to be a relatively ellegant method of allowing spellcasters to "know" a large number of spells, but only being able to uses a subset of them at any given time - which is the way I want spellcaster to work in my games - very Vancian.

I have never had a problem caused by using VPPs. The only severe caveats I place on them is that (1) all effects within the pool must be chosen from a pre-written list, and (2) pools may not be changed in combat time (don't like to have games delayed while people fiddle with their pool).

Sometime I work from spell lists that I have pregenerated for the campaign, sometime I let the players do it. In my current game I am using the forthcoming Fantasy Hero Grimoire as a source of pregenerated spell-lists (playtesting).

I've seen several responses in this thread that indicate that some GMs would think that allowing the players to create the spells is a horrifying idea. My response to that is: if you don't trust yout players, why are you playing with them?

John Desmarais
.

slaughterj

Aug 29th, '03, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by John Desmarais
I've seen several responses in this thread that indicate that some GMs would think that allowing the players to create the spells is a horrifying idea. My response to that is: if you don't trust yout players, why are you playing with them?

.

Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs), or they don't have the intimate familiarity the Hero system that the GM does, and consequently for many it makes sense to not have the players make spells. Obviously there are exceptions to this.

tetsujin28

Aug 29th, '03, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by slaughterj
Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs), or they don't have the intimate familiarity the Hero system that the GM does, and consequently for many it makes sense to not have the players make spells. Obviously there are exceptions to this. Agreed. FH requires a ridiculous amount of knowledge about Hero, and most players are not willing to spend that much time on things.

Lord Mhoram

Aug 29th, '03, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by slaughterj
Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs)

This is my reason. I am setting up an FH game (my last one ran almost 9 years, and my players want more fantasy), and I have a very precies magic system. I borrow a number of concepts from the rolemaster magic system (three realms, a type of magic that predates the realms, ect). I have very specific effects that each kind of magic can do- and some of it is by feel. I have about 200 sample spells build, and am about 1/3 done from where I want to be for the game to start. With that as a base, I'd let my players build spells, I would just warn them that I may adjust details to fit my magic system before they could use them.

As for the base question my first FH game had no frameworks, and I started it off with a fairly high point level 100+100. I want more versitily with characters, so I am doing via frameworks - magic uses multipowers, and I am either going to use multipowers or ECs for "non powered powers" and weapon tricks.

AnotherSkip

Aug 29th, '03, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Agreed. FH requires a ridiculous amount of knowledge about Hero, and most players are not willing to spend that much time on things.

actually HERO can feel like it requires a good deal of dedication.

However having played underneath a GM who:
1. 90% of the time does not read Emails, Much less respond to them.
2. Doesn't even recall what happened last session more often than not.
3. Revises the universes rules upon a whim.
4. has the character sheets in his posession almost all of the time and never even looks at what people have regarding anything....
5. prepared? For what?

yes he does have reasons for his actions but it gets annoying...

compared to My FH GM who does do all of the above.

keep in mind this is in WereWolf the Apocalypse in case it matters and actually may have had more experience playing WW than he has.

the point is though that playing a game with continuity but without dedication is like having an email address and giving it to everyone sending alot of Emails and never checking the inbox.

It's pretty sad when im more dedicated to the game than the Gm is.

John Desmarais

Aug 29th, '03, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by slaughterj
Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs), or they don't have the intimate familiarity the Hero system that the GM does, and consequently for many it makes sense to not have the players make spells. Obviously there are exceptions to this.

And? If a player whips up a spell write up that doesn't fit in your campaign then you simple tell him such. Problem solved (unless said player throws a tantrum like a six year old).

As for intimate familiarty with the rules - I generally find that players with a marginal grasp of the rules have an easier time with FH spells than they do with super powers. FH magic, for me at least, usually has a very standard set of modifiers that will be applied to all spells to insure a certain "mechanical feel". Player starts with spell concept, selects the appropriate Hero power(s), applies standard modifers, spell done.

Again, I'm hearing what sounds like much ado about nonthing.

John D.

Hugh Neilson

Aug 30th, '03, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by John Desmarais
And? If a player whips up a spell write up that doesn't fit in your campaign then you simple tell him such. Problem solved (unless said player throws a tantrum like a six year old).

This depends on how often it happens. How many spells does a player build and have rejected because the GM has done a poor job summarizing how magic will work in his campaign before the "Screw it" factor kicks in?

Same thinbg for building and revising characters if the GM is less than clear about concerns and desired changes.

Good communication is essential in Hero to get all the players and the GM on the same page about how things work, how common some items may be in the campaign world, etc.

AnotherSkip

Aug 30th, '03, 07:58 AM

actually some of these things are just as applicable to _any_ system as to HERO.

Good communication (which does not allways occur) is a must when roleplaying, especially concerning the mechanics.

Hugh Neilson

Aug 30th, '03, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
actually some of these things are just as applicable to _any_ system as to HERO.

Good communication (which does not allways occur) is a must when roleplaying, especially concerning the mechanics.

Yes and no. I find Hero requires more communication because the ground rules vary with the campaign and the GM. In many other systems, it's only variances from the rulebook that need to be addressed, but the extra flexibility of Hero means a lot more is open (eg. how many DC and how much DEF is appropriate versus defined spells, weapons and armor set the numbers).

AnotherSkip

Aug 30th, '03, 11:24 AM

however a Gm with a defined campaign world (a well written one, either availible to the players as a download/email or accessible via either pre-printed or outside party (such as the Turakarian Age) should reset that back to the "only the Variances should be discussed" level. it doesnt allways, and some powers, much less advantages/disads and full constructs should be fully discussed before play begins (transform springs to mind as the single largest potential for causing unhappyness in either party).

Hmm should we advertise HERO as "only the _best_ Roleplayers* need apply?"

:)
* or Communicators?

James Gillen

Aug 30th, '03, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Hmm should we advertise HERO as "only the _best_ Roleplayers* need apply?"

:)
* or Communicators?

Yes... I think that would solve a LOT of the problems that are unfairly associated with HERO.

JG

Mr. Negative

Aug 30th, '03, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Agreed. FH requires a ridiculous amount of knowledge about Hero, and most players are not willing to spend that much time on things.

See, to me, this isn't totally true, because, at least for creating spells, HERO has a lot of what I call "front end" knowledge required, while most other systems have a lot of "back end" knowledge required.

That is to say that designing a spell to create a specific effect requires either a fairly complete knowledge of the system, or a lot of references to the rules (and ususally both). On the other hand, once a spell is built, you can look at the spell-write up and know how it works. You don't have to really look much up in play with the spells, nor do you have to do a lot of GM rulings.

Other systems with pregenerated spells, or even some systems where you can improvise spells (say Mage) require very little preparation to select/create spells but it often requires a lot of looking at the rules/consulting the GM to see how a spell actually works in play.

While this is very intimidating or time-consuming to new players or GMs, creating spells from scratch or modifying spells to fit your system, I feel that it is time well spent in that, for the most part, you don't have to have these discussions later, during play.

Bringing this back to VPPs. I'd really like to emphasize that a VPP doesn't necessarily indicate that the character can actually improvise spells. It is simply a rules construct to represent a particular ability to use magic. There is nothing wrong with a VPP of all pregenerated spells, created by either the GM or the player, or both. If the idea of creating spells during the game gives you pause (as it does me) you can disallow it without impacting, at all, on the utility or nature of the VPP (however, if someone does have a limited selection of pregenerated spells, this would be an ideal use of the 'limited selection of powers' limitation on the VPP).

I have liked VPPs in my FH games because players don't have to spend any points on specific spells, or even on spell colleges. If some wizard wants to learn some minor spell that allows him to do some minor trick, then he can, without spending any points on it. If he wants to become a more powerful wizard, or master some powerful magic, then he must funnel points into his magic "in total", rather than just putting points into one power. Multipowers work fairly well, but they seem to discourage the creative minor magics (common to GURPS Magic) that I really like in my system, and which I feel add a lot to the distinctive feel of the wizard ("Anyone can kill an orc, but I can keep my stuff dry in the rain, and set up magical perimeters around the campsite, too!")

badger3k

Aug 31st, '03, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Negative
See, to me, this isn't totally true, because, at least for creating spells, HERO has a lot of what I call "front end" knowledge required, while most other systems have a lot of "back end" knowledge required.

That is to say that designing a spell to create a specific effect requires either a fairly complete knowledge of the system, or a lot of references to the rules (and ususally both). On the other hand, once a spell is built, you can look at the spell-write up and know how it works. You don't have to really look much up in play with the spells, nor do you have to do a lot of GM rulings.

Other systems with pregenerated spells, or even some systems where you can improvise spells (say Mage) require very little preparation to select/create spells but it often requires a lot of looking at the rules/consulting the GM to see how a spell actually works in play.

Complete agreement on that point. Has anyone tried to put together a "balanced" spell in another non-universal system (i.e. 3e maybe). Spells for a fantasy campaign are usually better defined in terms of limits than powers in a superhero game, and I've found that players generally have an easier time making spells than powers because of that.

The biggest difference with other systems (such as Pendragon, D&D, etc) is that they are designed with specific rules already built in. The Hero System does not have that - the rules allow virtually any system to be built. The biggest reason I've found that people prefer other systems for fantasy are all the "setting" details - tell another gamer you have a 5th level wizard and he has a pretty good idea about power, etc - say you have a 175 point wizard and that means - what? How many points to spells, what active point cost, etc. Many people prefer to play without all those details, so they play other games. A D&D spellcaster is basically the same no matter what setting you use (even given the variations the OGL intrduces), a FH mage can vary depending on the particular GM and players.

For me, the flexibility of the rules, and the ability to create anything I want within the rules, makes FH a great game. After playing 40+ game systems, the Hero system is one I keep playing, mainly because of that flexibility. That said, the very same flexibility lets you design a magic system that can be similar to another game system, but without having to use the other rules (say you don't like the combat or skill system, or atributes, etc). Some of those systems can be best replicated by a VPP. I've used all 3 (straight purchase, VPP and MP) at different times. I'm currently looking at using a VPP to make magic work similar to the Wheel of Time magic - the pcs learn elements and mix them to make magic (similar to what somebody already posted). However, thats still in the planning stages. I'd also considered using prewritten spells, possibly learned with a skill or paid with cps (1 per spell maybe) - I haven't actually got into detail with it yet - I'm still trying to learn the changes in 5th ed.

Just wanted to toss a couple of ideas out there, and one question. What's FREd? I see it all over and can't figure out what it refers to. Since the FAQ doesn't have anything on abbreviations just thought I'd ask.

Hugh Neilson

Aug 31st, '03, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by badger3k
Just wanted to toss a couple of ideas out there, and one question. What's FREd? I see it all over and can't figure out what it refers to. Since the FAQ doesn't have anything on abbreviations just thought I'd ask.

Fifth Rules Edition (hence FREd). Well, something had to replace BBB for Big Blue Book, right? [Big Black Book didn't abbreviate well :rolleyes: since the acronym would be the same]

badger3k

Aug 31st, '03, 08:28 PM

Thanks for the reply - just spent all evening looking the boards over and appreciate the help.

AnotherSkip

Sep 5th, '03, 02:03 PM

Fred is something of an 'in house" joke.

Basically Steve Said "You can call it fred for all i care, so long as you buy a book" and a Wag reverse engineered the Acronym.

Killer Shrike

Sep 5th, '03, 02:41 PM

I prefered "Son of BBB", or "BBB Jr.", but FRED works to.

Thankfully nobody at DOJ is actually NAMED Fred, or it could get really confusing ;)

AnotherSkip

Sep 6th, '03, 12:07 PM

He KS, shouldn't that be "Son of a BBB!!!!! The answer was in the index all along!!!"

heck the index is soo huge i could hide my "aunt" Purple in there

ScottoStanek

Sep 6th, '03, 02:25 PM

How do you explain/prevent mages from buying their VPP's thus:
20 RP poll
+5 adder 40pt pool
+5 adder 60 pt pool
+5 adder 80 pt pool
+5 adder 100 pt pool
+5 adder 120pt VPP!

:D Treat the adders similar to NonCombat (maybe after the first doubling). Then you could also set the amount doubled in stone so that they have the choice of paying 1 more XP and going from their 20/40 to 21/41 or paying 5 to goto 20/80 with anything over 40 being strictly NonCombat use. It could lead to some odd math but isn't that part of the joy of Hero?
:rolleyes:

Scotto the Unwise

Killer Shrike

Sep 7th, '03, 01:43 AM

This is how it works:

A Wizard/Mage/Whatever with the following VPP:

MAGE CONTROL COST
Only Arcane Magic (-1/2)
May Only Change Spells With A Spell Book And Study Time (-1/2)
All Spells Must Have 1 Charge (-1/4)
Variable Limitation (-1/2; each Spell must take -1 of Limitations from Extra Time, Concentration, Incantation, Gesture, Limited Range, or RSR: Magic Skill vs. Spell Resistance in any combination at a MINIMUM)

Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 2.5 Real Points
Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 17 Real Points

If that caster has "3rd Level Spell Access", that equates to 45 Pool.

45 Pool has a Control Cost of 22.5, rounds down to 22.

Then apply - 1 3/4 in Limitations, and the cost drops to: 8 Real Points.

So 45 Pool + 8 Control = 53 Total Points.

In such a VPP, a Wizard could have a total Real Cost of 45 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.

If the Wizard takes the +5 Adder Double Real Cost Limit" once, then the control cost is 22+5 = 27 / 1 3/4 Lims = 9.8 rounds to 10.

So for +2 real points the character can now have a total Real Cost of 90 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.

If the Wizard takes the +5 Adder Double Real Cost Limit" twice, then the control cost is 22+10 = 37 / 1 3/4 Lims = 13.4 rounds to 13.

So for +3 real points the character can now have a total Real Cost of 135 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.

By contrast, a Sorceror with the following VPP:

Sorceror Control Cost
No Skill Roll Required (+1)
0 Phase Change (+1)
Only Arcane Magic (-1/2)
Very Limited List Of Spells Known (-1/4; Use Sorceror Spell Progression Chart from 3e as a guidline; Learned by use of Magic skill)
All Spells must Use Charges (+/-0)

Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 12 Real Points
Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 27 Real

If that caster has "3rd Level Spell Access", that equates to 45 Pool.

45 Pool has a Control Cost of 38 for a total cost of 83 Real Cost

In such a VPP, a Wizard could have a total Real Cost of 45 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.

If the Wizard takes the +5 Adder Double Real Cost Limit" once, then the control cost is (22+5 = 27 * +2 Advs) / - 3/4 Lims = 46 Control Cost and 91 total Cost.

So for +8 real points the character can now have a total Real Cost of 90 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.

etc.

It increases the number of Power Constucts, all of which MUST be on Charges, that a Wizard can have preparred in their VPP per day, and How many Real Points of Spells a Sorceror can have readied all at once, but not the Active Point limit for the individual Power Constucts.

It has balanced out well in all of the load testing so far.

ShadowRaptor

Sep 8th, '03, 11:22 AM

What are the specific limitations of having an EC, MP with or without Ultras, and a VPP?

What exactly can, and cannot be done? Can all of them cast multiple spells at the same time, or have multiple spells going off in the same round?

AnotherSkip

Sep 8th, '03, 04:50 PM

FREd is Pretty explicit,
MP basically has a reserve of spell level maximum which everything comes from to have things active.

VPP has x number of floating real points that may be adjusted by the player subject to certain restrictions, restrictions which are governed by some inherent limits and point based limits

An EC is basically a -1 limitation that the points are paid for by the "base concept" with the limitation of negative adjustments affect all of the pattern. EC however does not need to worry about which ones are on or off. All of the powers can be either as long as the other restrictions are handled properly.

PhilFleischmann

Sep 10th, '03, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
This is how it works:

A Wizard/Mage/Whatever with the following VPP:

MAGE CONTROL COST
[see above for details]
Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 2.5 Real Points
Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 17 Real Points

If that caster has "3rd Level Spell Access", that equates to 45 Pool.
[more details deleted for brevity]
So 45 Pool + 8 Control = 53 Total Points.
[here's the important part:]
If the Wizard takes the +5 Adder Double Real Cost Limit" once, then the control cost is 22+5 = 27 / 1 3/4 Lims = 9.8 rounds to 10.

So for +2 real points the character can now have a total Real Cost of 90 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.

If the Wizard takes the +5 Adder Double Real Cost Limit" twice, then the control cost is 22+10 = 37 / 1 3/4 Lims = 13.4 rounds to 13.

So for +3 real points the character can now have a total Real Cost of 135 in Power Constructs, none of which can have more than 45 Active Points.
[more details deleted]
It has balanced out well in all of the load testing so far.
Let me see if I understand this correctly: My wizard spends 58 real points on his spell pool and gets 135 real points worth of spells? That I can change with study time? Sign me up!

Some players are naturally born munchkins, but some GM's provide a breeding ground for them.

slaughterj

Sep 10th, '03, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Let me see if I understand this correctly: My wizard spends 58 real points on his spell pool and gets 135 real points worth of spells? That I can change with study time? Sign me up!

Some players are naturally born munchkins, but some GM's provide a breeding ground for them.

Not necessarily. As the new FH presents, the cost for spells can be divided by some factor for a given setting if so desired by a GM (e.g., divided by 3), based on the commonality/frequency magic appears therein. So one can't simply dismiss alternative methods that have similar results.

Killer Shrike

Sep 10th, '03, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Let me see if I understand this correctly: My wizard spends 58 real points on his spell pool and gets 135 real points worth of spells? That I can change with study time? Sign me up!

Yes, with no more than 45 Active Points each, and with 1 Charge each, and with various casting limitations. Plus, there are associated skills which cost around 25 points or more to be able to reliably learn Spells. And time required to learn spells. And time required to prepare Spells.

So basically, about 60-75% of a Spellcaster's Experience gets fed to keeping their spellcasting up to par with what the source material indicates is appropriate by comparison to non Spellcasters.

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Some players are naturally born munchkins, but some GM's provide a breeding ground for them.

Some people are born close minded and judgemental, but some posters feel a need to broadcast it upon others.

badger3k

Sep 10th, '03, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Let me see if I understand this correctly: My wizard spends 58 real points on his spell pool and gets 135 real points worth of spells? That I can change with study time? Sign me up!

Some players are naturally born munchkins, but some GM's provide a breeding ground for them.

Try this out - FHp 239: "In that case, you could, if desired, allow characters to buy extra Pool and Control Cost points with the limitation that they only serve to increase the amount of Real Points worth of spells the character can have at any one time, not the Active Points available for any one spell (typically a -1 or -1/2 limitation). This may cause game balance problems, though, so you should proceed with care"

Sounds pretty similar to the system proposed. (I knew FH said something similar in it, just took a bit to find it).

PhilFleischmann

Sep 10th, '03, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by badger3k
FHp 239: "This may cause game balance problems, though, so you should proceed with care"
This is what I'm saying. Giving a character 50 more real points worth of power (spells, abilities, whatever) for only 25 real cost raises a big red flag, IMHO.

You can do it, but you have to make sure that non-mages get some equitable consideration. Unless you want all the players to be mages, which is another possible way to go.

It seems to me that if real points are no longer real points, then why do all this math?

Killer Shrike

Sep 10th, '03, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
This is what I'm saying. Giving a character 50 more real points worth of power (spells, abilities, whatever) for only 25 real cost raises a big red flag, IMHO.

You can do it, but you have to make sure that non-mages get some equitable consideration. Unless you want all the players to be mages, which is another possible way to go.

It seems to me that if real points are no longer real points, then why do all this math?

Nothing is changing the Real Cost of anything. Each power still calcs to X Real Cost.

All either variantion of increasing the Real Cost limit of the VPP does is increase the number of Powers allowable in the Pool at once. Each Power still has X RC which tallys against Y RC Limit. The only thing changing is Y.

The only advantage to doing this is to have more small Powers rather than having to increase the available Active Points as well. Normally a VPP is a square model. To increase the width (number of powers) you have to increase the height (magnitude of powers). This encourages players to escalate their character's raw might vs escalating their utility. Few players would buy up a normal VPP to a higher pool and not make a few bigger powers to take advantage of the raised AP Limit.

Is it a good idea to allow it in a normal, unrestrained VPP in a superheroic setting? Probably not. In a highly limited VPP with a set list (known Spells only, and limited number of known spell), particularly on 1 Charge per Spell? Works out rather well thanx.

Spellcasting characters are balanced against other characters in context, with a steep cost-of-entry and constant need to escalate their skills to keep them in synch with the size of their Pool (to offset learning penalties), and the need to upgrade their Pool in 15 Pool increments (plus control cost) in a millieu where 3 XP per session is the norm. It takes around 6 sessions of play for a Wizard (17 points per 15 pool) to pick up a new "Spell Level", and if they get nothing else. Meanwhile other characters are picking up more skills, more CSLs, more DCV levels, more stats, etc. Its a marked difference. Plus, with the 1 Charge limit per Spell, once a Wizard has blown his load, he's done, while the other non-spellcasters are still going strong. If anything, Spellcasters have to struggle to keep up if they want to accentuate their spellcasting.

ScottoStanek

Sep 10th, '03, 07:19 PM

This is what I'm saying. Giving a character 50 more real points worth of power (spells, abilities, whatever) for only 25 real cost raises a big red flag, IMHO.
You can do it, but you have to make sure that non-mages get some equitable consideration. Unless you want all the players to be mages, which is another possible way to go.

The subtleties of balance aren't really an issue _yet_.
Consider though an option of letting the fighter types take an equally restrictive VPP of "sword skills" and use the same real points adders mentioned above.
Fighter: " I want bat away the arrows with my blade, knocking the brazier over at his feet, and use it to scatter ashes into the air to cover my retreat"
{GM cocks head: Missile deflection, reflection, some luck, and a 1 phase invisibility OAF opportunity cause, possibly a flash...} "Okay, roll" <evil grin required>

Balance achieved.

Scotto the Unwise

badger3k

Sep 10th, '03, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by ScottoStanek
The subtleties of balance aren't really an issue _yet_.
Consider though an option of letting the fighter types take an equally restrictive VPP of "sword skills" and use the same real points adders mentioned above.
Fighter: " I want bat away the arrows with my blade, knocking the brazier over at his feet, and use it to scatter ashes into the air to cover my retreat"
{GM cocks head: Missile deflection, reflection, some luck, and a 1 phase invisibility OAF opportunity cause, possibly a flash...} "Okay, roll" <evil grin required>

Balance achieved.

Scotto the Unwise

Sounds similar if it has the same disads - a special warrior skill that can only be used once per day. Although how that can be put in a concept is kinda hard ot think of

PhilFleischmann

Sep 12th, '03, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Nothing is changing the Real Cost of anything. Each power still calcs to X Real Cost.

Yes, you are changing the real costs! You're giving 135 *real points* of power for only 58 *real points* of cost.

I'd rather keep real=real so I don't have to worry (as much) about balancing them with non-mages.

Killer Shrike

Sep 12th, '03, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
Yes, you are changing the real costs! You're giving 135 *real points* of power for only 58 *real points* of cost.

I'd rather keep real=real so I don't have to worry (as much) about balancing them with non-mages.
No, they are getting 45 extra RC in 1 use Powers which they have to pick in advance, cant change tactically, and which they also have to spend copious character points on external to the pool by way of required skills, and significant time requirements in game to acquire and learn spells. Further, the points required to maintain their spellcasting is around 2/3 of their total Experience gained in game. Meanwhile, any warrior with 2 or 3 CSLs and an off the shelf sword can hack them to bits before they can even get a single spell off.

There is more to game balance than simple points.

Markdoc

Sep 15th, '03, 03:23 AM

Actually, I'd tend to side with Phil here. Any halfway smart wizard will be able to keep a triggered defensive power or two in reserve: your suggested approach would actually make that easier by letting them have more spells in total, even if the active point ceiling stayed the same.

The powers available to them (in the absence of other limitations not suggested so far) should let them laugh at the worst a brawny warrior can throw out and then turn that warrior rapidly into mulch (eg: 30 PD forcefield, 1 charge lasting 5 hours: "immunity to normal weapons").

A GM who carefully controlled what spells the mage had access to could prevent this, of course, but I can't see the need to make mages even more powerful than they already are...

cheers, Mark

Killer Shrike

Sep 15th, '03, 05:10 AM

Perhaps in your experience Mages play out more powerful than other professions, but in my extensive experience, they only become so later on in their careers if they survive. Few campaigns last long enough for that to happen -- even after 1 year of play.

The mortality rate of Mages has always been higher than other professions IME. All the load balancing Ive run thru on this most recent Magic System indicates that Wizardly types are comparable to other professions with the doubling in place, and behind the power curve without it.

Instead of looking at 1 feature of the magic system and overreacting, perhaps looking at it in context to the rest of the material would indicate how powerful it is in comparison to other options available in the paradigm in effect.

AnotherSkip

Sep 15th, '03, 07:34 PM

Unfortuneately I don't think we can really contextualise this properly. There were few enough times that my VPP got in the way in my game that it wasn't a big deal. the few times that it did the Gm did talk to me about it afterwards and it went better from then on.

Essentially part of the problem with a VPP is trust.

Do you trust the player in question to do all the math and use it properly?

If the answer is yes then there is no problem.
If the answer is no then don't let them have a VPP.
If the answer is maybe then you need to decide whether a rules/SFX/balance call every session at a minimum is decent or not.

that is the only problem with VPP IMNSHO.

Do you trust them.

AnotherSkip

Sep 15th, '03, 07:34 PM

Ignore this count bumper

Markdoc

Sep 16th, '03, 02:40 AM

I should point out that I have nothing against the use of VPPs in FH: indeed, earlier in the thread I stated that I specifically allow them in my games.

I am not too keen on allowing VPPs and then giving extra freebie points for them. VPPs have never been a huge problem in my game: they give a mage flexibility at the cost of raw power. To me, the freebie points give a little too much power.

As for the issue of mages being weak, I must admit it has never occurred in my game or any of the games I have played in. However, we did not have systems which specifically limited powers on a "level" basis, so perhaps that balances things out.

cheers, Mark

Killer Shrike

Sep 16th, '03, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Markdoc
I should point out that I have nothing against the use of VPPs in FH: indeed, earlier in the thread I stated that I specifically allow them in my games.

I am not too keen on allowing VPPs and then giving extra freebie points for them. VPPs have never been a huge problem in my game: they give a mage flexibility at the cost of raw power. To me, the freebie points give a little too much power.

As for the issue of mages being weak, I must admit it has never occurred in my game or any of the games I have played in. However, we did not have systems which specifically limited powers on a "level" basis, so perhaps that balances things out.

cheers, Mark I dont limit access to spells on a "character level" basis either -- the only restriction is really cost, opportunity, and time, which is very steep in context. On a 3 per night ratio (and I give 3 for good playing -- Im known to hand out 2 and even 1 point for substandard play -- really good play will gain 4 from time to time, and super memorable excelent play will net 5) it takes 6 sessions of scrimping and saving to pick up another "spell level" and to increase even 1 School Skill by +1, while other non Spellcasters are free to spend their points on whatever as they go.

Killer Shrike

Sep 16th, '03, 08:53 AM

More time to reply now that Im at work...

The 1 Charge requirement on Wizard's Spells also really limit the usefulness of the VPP, combined with the requirement to prepare the spells ahead of time, and the usage of Charges eating their real cost for 1 Day from the VPP when used combine to mechanically restrict the power of the VPP.

Then you have the time requirement of actually learning spells to a "known spells" list, in conjunction with a -1/10 AP Skill Roll in a high Active Point magic system. This introduces an additional requirement of maintaining numerous skills (or alternately an expensive talent) to learn spells to the "known spells" list of available Power Constructs at a steep cost to the Spellcaster.

Then, all spells native to the setting are either made by me as the GM or approved of by me. If a player wants to make a spell in game, there is a time consuming process required, with multiple opportunities for GM suppression and roadblocking.

All in all, Wizards have a very difficult time of it, especially initially in the critical 125 point starting range and for at least 50 points beyond that. In particular, they have too few spells per day, and then cant do anything else bcs all of their points went into their Spellcasting.

The Doubling Adder allows them to have a few more spells per day but of the same AP limit and puts the Spellcaster closer to parity with other professions whose abilities are usable constantly within the context of the paradigm Im using.

All in all a tight system -- steep cost but marked pay off for perseverence.

Load balancing does show that at higher character points the doubling does have more of an impact (bcs the VPP itself is bigger, so the doubling has a larger effect obviously), but the costs involved are still very high for the Spellcaster, other professions are similarly deadly in their own right, and a certain amount of buffness in a high point Wizard type is expected in the context of high-level High Fantasy. The confluence of magic items, rival Spellcasters, and extrodinary abilities possessed by non Spellcasters at that point range make for a power mixture that Im perfectly comfortable with.

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Magic.htm

Galadorn

Mar 26th, '04, 07:55 AM

Should I consder buying a VPP for a wizard character in FH to reflect the vast number of (relatively) minor spells he knows?

We've talked about frameworks alot in this discussion board. But I will restate the framework system I use in my campaign:

1. Multipower 30 pt.s
2. VPP 5 pt.s
3. Defenses (outside any framework)

Starting character points for my campaign are 50+50. Active point caps on spells are (in almost all cases) 30 points.

Why do I make players take a 5 pt. VPP? To facilitate effects:

1. Gandalf casting his sticky, continuous, multi-colored fire spell; like he did in the tree with the worgs surrounding him (the "Out of the Frying Pan, Into the Fire" Chapter). He used pine cones for this spell.
2. Gandalf casting non-detect spells on the treasure he and Bilbo hid at the end of The Hobbit.

These are neat effects, I think: I think they give the Hobbit alot of color, richness and character. But, I'm not going to try to account for every miniscule spell that characters might have, and I don't expect them to either. Hence the VPP.

Also the VPP can add points to an attack, provide needed defenses that are logically justifiable to a wizard in my campaign, but we forgot to account for. Also they provide some color and cultural development that will make the playing experience in my campaign, much better for players and GM, alike.

Not only wizards have VPPs; but clerics, and spell-casting bards, as well. :)

tesuji

Mar 26th, '04, 10:10 AM

My thoughts on VPPS for spells in a fantasy game.

In most fantasy games, number of spells known is a significant thing for character power. A mage who knows 50 spells will be more powerful than one who knows 10, even if their power level is the same.

Putting the spells in a VPP takes that out of the point balance equation, barring house rules requiring points to be spent per spell known. (If you are going to charge a pittance per spell known, use a multipower!)

In a more high magic game, where you want magicians to be over the top somewhat, say an ars magica thing where balancing mages vs non-mages is not a desirable thing, this wont be a problem.

In actual play, in a superhero game or two, the VPP mage tended to become the "easy-answer man." Whatever the problem was, the group began to first turn to him to "come up with a spell". This did not start that way, but his access to "practically any power" became easier and easier to look towards.

In COMBAT, his VPP was not a problem. The Ap cap and time to dial in a new power and skill rolls were alol very limiting. It was his use out of combat to dial in any answer to a strategic issue. Do we need a team jet? Nope, warlokc can dial us up a teleport or mass flight.

One of the more telling examples was late in the campaign when the bad guys had some people holed up in a desert town. The wanted to scope the area and talk to someone inside so they had the mage dial up a transform and turn the leader of the team into a dog who could talk. So the mutt storlls into town sniffs some cans then make his way to the hostages...

meanwhile, the catguy team member scout stealthy guy stood arouns back at the van with his thumbs up his...

strategically, dialing "any spell" in a VPP can make a whole lot of other character's abilities other than combat useless.

So, i do not allow VPPS for fairly unlimited scope in even my supers games... and wont even consider them for a FH one. The versatility is just too potent to balance off against non-magical guys.

TheQuestionMan

Mar 26th, '04, 12:15 PM

Love this thread

xanatos

Mar 29th, '04, 02:34 AM

Galadorn

Mar 29th, '04, 10:27 AM

Love this thread

Thanks.

The point I think that has to be made, is that VPPs are limited by special effect. For your average wizard in my campaign, shapechanging is not possible. And each power has to be justified by a rationale that is relevant to the character's special effect.

For example, for Gandalf to suddenly turn his nose into dogs nose, so he can sniff out the enemy is not a part of Gandalf's rationale for his special effect (divine archetypical magic). Not only is it gauche, it's downright silly.

Now if the player could come up with a rationale for Gandalf to have enhanced smell (proxy animals sniff for him), that would work out fine. But I leave the burden of proof and rationale to the player. Putting the burden of proof on the player, has created some very interesting, subtle, and excellently justified spells from VPPs, in my experience :) .

And making the player justify it is time consuming, I don't allow much time for the player to come up with a rationale. This usually happens between games. Of course, my VPPs are only five points at this point - not much of a threat to game balance.

Blue Jogger

Mar 29th, '04, 04:47 PM

Ok... Now... I'd like to give my players the option for a small Cantrip VPP... (The 20 points one... 10 + 10). Now my question is: should I cap the number of spells my player can have in this pool? Or can they write 200 pages of small cantrips? Mmmh... They are "cantrips"... I could see them as direct manipulation of magic (so the fact that they have to write them before using is a "meta-rule" to make the game faster)

--- bye
It will also go easier if you make a list of what generally cantrips can do.
Most AD&D cantrips do only a few things:

Create/Repair/Modify minor things (10pts of Transform)
Destroy minor things (1/2D6 RKA)
Summon minor things (Summon, something really small)
Move things (5 STR TK, Invisible to Normal Sight)
Create Images/Sounds or Light (10pts of Image)
Make people sneeze, pass gas, etc... (2 STR TK, Invisible, Indirect?)

Snarf

Mar 29th, '04, 09:10 PM

Bringing this back to VPPs. I'd really like to emphasize that a VPP doesn't necessarily indicate that the character can actually improvise spells. It is simply a rules construct to represent a particular ability to use magic. There is nothing wrong with a VPP of all pregenerated spells, created by either the GM or the player, or both. If the idea of creating spells during the game gives you pause (as it does me) you can disallow it without impacting, at all, on the utility or nature of the VPP (however, if someone does have a limited selection of pregenerated spells, this would be an ideal use of the 'limited selection of powers' limitation on the VPP).
That's the system I ended up using. I made a spell list which was related to foci the magic users had to obtain and gave a -1/2 limited selection of powers limitation for it. The cost and flexibility ended up being pretty much the same as an MP.

From the examples I've seen here, I think I might have overdone it on the limitations. There's at least -2 1/2 of limitations on all spells, and it's often closer to -3. Has anyone had problems with an overdose of limitations making spellcasters too weak? Specifically, all the spells in my game have at least OAF, Extra Time: Full Phase, Concentration: 0 DCV, and RSR. So far, it seems like someone trying to use magic is helpless on their own but playable when everyone is working together.

About small VPPs for minor effects, there was a part in Fantasy Hero that mentioned allowing appropriate Power skill rolls to accomplish minor effects like that. For instance, a fire mage could roll his pyromancy or his magic skill to heat up his coffee, resist cold weather, do a light show, or stuff like that. That could work for low point games where you wanted to give magic users minor flexibility but points are too tight for people to buy it.

Galadorn

Mar 30th, '04, 10:10 AM

That's the system I ended up using. I made a spell list which was related to foci the magic users had to obtain and gave a -1/2 limited selection of powers limitation for it. The cost and flexibility ended up being pretty much the same as an MP.

From the examples I've seen here, I think I might have overdone it on the limitations. There's at least -2 1/2 of limitations on all spells, and it's often closer to -3. Has anyone had problems with an overdose of limitations making spellcasters too weak? Specifically, all the spells in my game have at least OAF, Extra Time: Full Phase, Concentration: 0 DCV, and RSR. So far, it seems like someone trying to use magic is helpless on their own but playable when everyone is working together.

If i were you, I would pick an archetype, i.e. what do you want wizards to be able to do. How is magic going to look, function and act? I would decide this before I design a spell. Then with the give and take of spell design (too much cost, not limiting enough, etc,), work out the details within the Hero System.

About small VPPs for minor effects, there was a part in Fantasy Hero that mentioned allowing appropriate Power skill rolls to accomplish minor effects like that. For instance, a fire mage could roll his pyromancy or his magic skill to heat up his coffee, resist cold weather, do a light show, or stuff like that. That could work for low point games where you wanted to give magic users minor flexibility but points are too tight for people to buy it.

First, minor special effects for Gandalfs "firey cones of doom" ;) are not that minor. Gandalf's firey cones spell would have killed the warg, if the goblins had not come along and put out the worg's coats.

Secondly, cantrips are much more useful in my campaign than just heating a pot of coffee. I have spells like:

1. Alter Self (Disguise +1)
2. Charming (Persuasion +1)
3. Light (5pt.s of Images)

These are far more useful than heating a coffee pot, and are capped at 5 active points per cantrip.

I also allow skills as cantrips to be far more useful, simply because they are magic. So a wizard with Alter Self could instantly alter his appearance to a high degree of detail. For instance, he could change his hair and beard color, put a fake wart on his nose and make tears, and holes in his robes and make his robes dirty as well.

With Alter Self I allow anything short of instant change, simply because it is justified by the spell's special effect rationale. So while the wizard could do the above alterations, he could not change the material his robe was made of (cotton to wool), the functionality of his robe (summer wear to winter wear), or the clothing items he was wearing (robe, to tunic and pants). But anything short of that is allowed.

So, as I'm sure you can see, cantrips in my game are far more useful than simply cooking bacon. I didn't remember that statement in FH, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Snarf

Mar 30th, '04, 09:19 PM

If i were you, I would pick an archetype, i.e. what do you want wizards to be able to do. How is magic going to look, function and act? I would decide this before I design a spell. Then with the give and take of spell design (too much cost, not limiting enough, etc,), work out the details within the Hero System.
Don't worry about that, I already did it almost exactly the way you recommend. I started out by copying a magic system I saw in a video game and added more detail about mana and magical forces. The basic ideas were that everyone could channel elemental forces through naturally occuring objects called magicites, multiple casters could combine their powers into more powerful spells, and each race has a natural magic ability which can be improved with practice. So, I checked out my copy of Fantasy Hero and decided to use a VPP, EGO-based power skill, and some other stuff that was discussed in there. Right now, I'm on that fine tuning step where I have to make investing points in magic about as useful as points spent in fighter stuff, but I don't know enough about GMing Hero, so I'm reading threads like this one carefully.

First, minor special effects for Gandalfs "firey cones of doom" are not that minor. Gandalf's firey cones spell would have killed the warg, if the goblins had not come along and put out the worg's coats.
Good point. Pine cones of fiery doom would be more than a wee bit too much for a power tricks freebie.

AnotherSkip

Apr 4th, '04, 03:28 PM

James Gillen

Apr 4th, '04, 04:19 PM

One could argue that it was gandalf using the ring he was guarding and concealing that effort with his own magics.

how's that for subtle?

Well on to the basics of the thread, try to think like this. how flexible do you want people to be?

the larger of a VPP you allow the more flexible you are.

at one point we were discussing a 75 point VPP FireMage who would build things like 2d6 Continuous AOE Megascaled Megaranged fire spell to take on armies with.... for a 75+75 game.

veddy veddy frightning.....

Uh, yeah.
The main limitation imposed by the VPP Framework- and it should always be kept in mind- is that the Pool Points are an absolute limit on Active Points (although various Limitations applied to each spell mean the VPP can run more than 1 spell at once before re-allocation). If a spell has 2d6 RKA, that's 30 Active Points right there. Continuous is +1, Area Effect is another +1, that's 90 AP right there, not counting any MegaScale. So... if the mage player thinks he can create the effect described with a 75 pt. Pool, he's

WRONG!!!!!!

Now, you might allow such a spell outside the Power Pool, but then the PC would have to buy the monster with a LOT of Limitations to make it affordable. That's the idea. That means that the high-Active Point attack will be appropriately limited in game terms, and the PC has something to save his XP for after getting a reasonably sized VPP. I would allow VPPs mainly as a "utility grimoire" to account for all the common spells a character could have learned without needing to pay points for. Major spells, like the one described, would require a major effort to learn and perfect, thus they justify spending points on an individual basis (outside the Framework) like usual.

Though I guess I dont really have much to add to this thread.

Plan plan and more plan. that is the danger with giving VPP's to players there is NOTHING you cannot overcome in Hero with enough imagination and a good VPP.

That's definitely true.

JG

Galadorn

Apr 5th, '04, 07:39 AM

Well on to the basics of the thread, try to think like this. how flexible do you want people to be?

the larger of a VPP you allow the more flexible you are.

at one point we were discussing a 75 point VPP FireMage who would build things like 2d6 Continuous AOE Megascaled Megaranged fire spell to take on armies with.... for a 75+75 game.

veddy veddy frightning.....

And this is why we have power levels for our games, so an occurence like this can't happen. And why I structure my spell-casters magic as I stated above (Multi, VPP, Defenses, etc.) And give an active point limit to mage spells. BTW, 75+75 IS a power limit in itself.

Secondly, it's not total flexibility I want my spell-casters to have, just someflexibility (5pt. VPP in a 30 active point game).

I had a character with a 30pt. VPP, in one Champs game. And he could almost do anything. On the big approach to our fellow NPC protagonist's spaceship, where I was supposed to be inside our spaceship going "Ooooh, and Ahhh!" with my fellow PCs, I instead teleported outside (I had sufficient life support) and FTL'd to NPC's ship. Then I put on my full presence effect (120 PRE) and presenced this supposed "demi-god" out. Well my character was an angel! LOL.

30 points of this presence was from my VPP.

And yes, from the GM's point of view, it probably ruined the effect he wanted to give. But my character was an angel! Probably a demigod in his own right, so to speak. :) And I guess a more impressive demigod, at that! :rofl:

Of course this was Champs and not FH, and these were the early (and lucious) days of VPPs. :snicker:

Plan plan and more plan. that is the danger with giving VPP's to players there is NOTHING you cannot overcome in Hero with enough imagination and a good VPP.

That's true. But there is a limit to what powers you can come up in 30 seconds, which is the usual time period a player in my game has between actions. :jawdrop: Come on, how hard can creating and obeying rules be?

swobeas

Apr 5th, '04, 09:24 AM

tesuji

Apr 5th, '04, 09:49 AM

Hi!

What do you think? Will it be to limiting for spellcasters compared to fighters?
I think with the right power in combination with the right advatage a mage can easily outpower a fighter (what about a DRAIN Movement or STR to 0 for example?)

best regards
swobeas

I think once you take the VPP model and turn it into requiring a small price per pre-fabbed spell, 1 pt in this case, you have effectively reinvented the multipower. Pay a large amount up front (VPP pool and control cost), pay a small amount per spell, and require pre-figured spells...

its a multipower by another and more convoluted means.

I would just use a multipower and apply the limitations.. to the spells they apply to. Sure, at 1/10 the rp a slot may cost you 2 or even 3 pts, but it makes sense a 10d6 fireball spell would cost more than a 5d6 fireball spell.

Galadorn

Apr 5th, '04, 11:43 AM

Hi!

In my upcoming campaign I am planning a mixture of VPP and skill system for spells.

A wizard must buy a cosmic VPP along with these limitations for the control cost: Incantations, gestures, Skill roll, Focus, extra time:1 Phase, concentration (1/2 DCV), FAM w/ spell (-11/2)

The skill comes in for the FAM w/ spell limitation. This means that a wizard must learn a spell by studying it + pay 1 Point for a Familarity with it.
Therefore every spell costs 1 Point to learn and has the same limitations ( I don't like the atmoshere of wizards at combat movement firing a spell in an blink of an eye).

As the VPP increases, so the power of the learned spells do...

What do you think? Will it be to limiting for spellcasters compared to fighters?
I think with the right power in combination with the right advatage a mage can easily outpower a fighter (what about a DRAIN Movement or STR to 0 for example?)

best regards
swobeas

I think you will learn the frustration some GMs have with VPPs. Here is a list of the reasons for, and against VPPs, said by many or none at all:
Reasons For:
Paradigmic Transcience: VPPs allow flexibility. A GM is not trapped into a certain spell list, or a static Framework of powers.
Gap Rule:VPPs allow powers or advantages to be created "on the fly." If a player could justifiably have a certain attack, defense or power, but the GM didn't consider that possibility, VPPs allow the GM to have instant flexibility in allowing the character to have a power that the GM didn't consider in the first place.
Modularity: VPPs allow a character to have all the powers he thinks his character should have, without spending massive points to gain them all. For example, a character have a 30 point multipower, and 30 powers he wants his character to have. 30 pt.s + 3 pt.s per ultra-slot = 120 pt.s

For 45 pt.s a character can buy a VPP that covers all possible variations, without the 75 extra points cost. Then the player can mix and match VPP powers to magnify or add modifiers to an existing multipower or elemental control, or for some extra wallop, to his attacks. Thus the character can mix and match until he comes up with an ideal, and appropriate, power.

Reasons Against:
Scenario Transience: VPPs allow for infinite variations of powers. Accounting for all these possible powers, can make scenerio design nearly impossible.
"Hunt and Peck:" VPPs allow for varying special effect (depending on the VPPs rationale), thus opening up rotating special effects in an effort to find a enemy characters susceptabilities and vulnerabilities.
:thumbup:

Galadorn

Apr 5th, '04, 12:09 PM

Hi!
The skill comes in for the FAM w/ spell limitation. This means that a wizard must learn a spell by studying it + pay 1 Point for a Familarity with it.
Therefore every spell costs 1 Point to learn and has the same limitations ( I don't like the atmoshere of wizards at combat movement firing a spell in an blink of an eye).

This could be done in a Multi-Power as well, for about the same cost.

UltraRob

Apr 5th, '04, 02:08 PM

This could be done in a Multi-Power as well, for about the same cost.

I see one difference in what he's doing, if you're making it a familarity-based VPP instead, then each familiarity is a skill that can be used to modulate the control over the amount of power in the pool which can be drawn upon.

For example, if you use the -1 pt 5 active points rule and apply it to the familiarity system then you get wizards who will have to work to be able to fully access their pool.

ie

30pt VPP
Fireball Skill: For a basic fireball will be 8/11/(STAT/5) -6 (30/5) if the player wants to cast a full 6D6 fireball. If the player wants to be better at casting "Fireballs" they will have to sink extra points into the skill to compensate.

And, of course, they will need a different skill for each type of fireball (area effect, explosive, armour piercing, etc).

This actually makes it more expensive than a Multipower to buy, but the characters end up being more Skill based and having to give more thought to what they will use.

Plus, as someone mentioned earlier, you can let them use similar skills to perform lower-powered cantrips and other tricks. (ie Fireball can be used at micro power to light a candle for a spell skill roll with a small modifier for control...)

Actually, I rather like this setup. It does have the disad that poor mages will have trouble having multiple spells going at the same time (unless they have huge VPPs), but on the plus side it makes the game all about the mage researching new magic and new ways to use their skills. The VPP just becomes a representation of the Mage's raw power potential.

Rob