gravitic well

[Scifi_Toughguy]

I want a big brick-like leg breaker that is (warning: comic book logic and physics imminent) so dense (mutant perhaps) he can exert his own gravitational pull. This is my proposed build.

Telekinesis: STR 40 AoE Radius (+1) Personal immunity (+1/4) 135 AP, No Range (-1/2) Affects Whole Object (-1/4) Real cost 77

As always comments and critiques are welcome. I also am a bit fuzzy on how the radius will turn out. According to my understanding it'll be calculated on 75 AP so does that make it a 7.5 hex radius of affection?

[Maur]

Well, you seem to be missing a limitation or something to describe that it can only be used for pulling towards the character. Plus it would have a falloff in STR the further from him you were...

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Good points. I'm thinking I should redefine it as less density SFX and more of a minor control over gravity as I want him to be able to repel as well.

[CrosshairCollie]

Good points. I'm thinking I should redefine it as less density SFX and more of a minor control over gravity as I want him to be able to repel as well.

Other possible limitations, in that case, could be 'only to push/pull' and 'does no damage', since it sounds like he can't crush the objects with the grav-field.

On an unrelated note, I would be more tempted to buy this as an Explosion, as it seems logical that the attractive/repulsive force would be weaker the further away from the source it is ... but that's an RL physics thing. :)

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Hmm, all good points. I believe I shall ammend the entry. Not sure how to value the collie's suggested limitations.

Telekinesis: STR 40 Explosion (-1DC/2") +3/4, Personal immunity +1/4 120 AP; Affects whole object -1/4, No Range -1/2, only to push/pull -1/4, Does no damage -1/2 (real cost 48)

[Doc Democracy]

I was always slightly against the use of TK for modelling gravity. Having read a few other threads on the use of TK and seen official answers, it is not a good power to model gravity with.

An area effect TK will only affect the total weight that the TK could lift. So 40STR TK lifts about 6 tonnes. Using TK it actually gets less effective the more things that are in the gravity well.

That might not be an issue - after all it is the equivalent of 64 agents (and I presume despite not being able to move the 65th agent in the area that they all have to fight against a 40STR to get free).

Just thought I'd point this out....


Doc

[Sean Waters]

That is a good utilitarian build, although, for gravity sfx I tend to favour UAA flight for the simple reason that the mass/strength of the target should not matter much - they are going to move as if you'd dropped them off a building. Also a 40 STR TK can only affect 6400kg, not 6400 kg per target. Whilst UAA suffers a similar problem (you have to buy up the mass/nunber of targets you can affect - probably - it bears consideration.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

My initial read on the power was a supress against movement. The problem is, I didn't think you can slap a supress on that category.

[Beast]

since tk is a constant power
you could make it a damage shield
also you could have it only do damage if the target is against you
of course you are going to make a great vaccum cleaner

[Sean Waters]

My initial read on the power was a supress against movement. The problem is, I didn't think you can slap a supress on that category.

Oh I'm sure you can:)

Running, Flight (which, to me, includes swinging and gliding as a subset), Swimming and the actual movement part of tunelling (but not the tearing through walls bit) is a well enough defined group. Wouldn't affect most manifestations of EDM or teleport, but I'd certainly allow it.

One interesting approach is to simply supress strength - on the basis you need it to combat increased gravity. Bit too disconnected for my tastes, but it might work...

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Beast: I'm really not looking to damage anyone with it, its mainly to affect movement.

Mr. Waters: If I model it as a supress against movement powers, then there is no push/pull. I'm not sure but that aspect of it (the push and pull) seems like something I want in there.

[Tonio]

Actually, the fact that TK doesn't work as well against more massive objects doesn't have to be a problem. More massive objects are also affected more by local gravity, which usually makes them tougher to move. Also, while it's not accurate, it can "feel" right to have more massive objects move slower because of inertia. So while TK won't accurately model real-world gravity, it can be a decent model for comic-book gravity. :)

[Vulcan]

Hmm, all good points. I believe I shall ammend the entry. Not sure how to value the collie's suggested limitations.

Telekinesis: STR 40 Explosion (-1DC/2") +3/4, Personal immunity +1/4 120 AP; Affects whole object -1/4, No Range -1/2, only to push/pull -1/4, Does no damage -1/2 (real cost 48)

If it's always centered on the character, don't forget 'No Range (-1/2).

[Scifi_Toughguy]

That be the second one there once you hit the limitations.

[Maur]

That is a good utilitarian build, although, for gravity sfx I tend to favour UAA flight for the simple reason that the mass/strength of the target should not matter much - they are going to move as if you'd dropped them off a building. Also a 40 STR TK can only affect 6400kg, not 6400 kg per target. Whilst UAA suffers a similar problem (you have to buy up the mass/nunber of targets you can affect - probably - it bears consideration.

Well, if the object is in the air then you really only have to overcome air resistance to move it via gravity. If it's on the ground, then you have to overcome all that mass' friction from contact with the ground. So, in general it will take a larger force to move a more massive object.

[Vulcan]

Whoops! Missed that. :o

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Its all good. Thanks for watching out for me.

[Sean Waters]

Well, if the object is in the air then you really only have to overcome air resistance to move it via gravity. If it's on the ground, then you have to overcome all that mass' friction from contact with the ground. So, in general it will take a larger force to move a more massive object.

Well we might have to wait for a unified theory, but gravity does not seem to work the same way as other forces. Gravity does not, for instance, seem to use energy, nor to decay. If something is in a gravity field then friction is certainly a major factor, but gravity acts (if I recall physics at all) with a bigger force on a more massive object, which is why small and large objects fall at the same rate. not sure that is true of, eg, electromagnetic force.

[Maur]

Well we might have to wait for a unified theory, but gravity does not seem to work the same way as other forces. Gravity does not, for instance, seem to use energy, nor to decay. If something is in a gravity field then friction is certainly a major factor, but gravity acts (if I recall physics at all) with a bigger force on a more massive object, which is why small and large objects fall at the same rate. not sure that is true of, eg, electromagnetic force.

Gravity decays with distance as it is inversely proportional to r^2. All objects get the same pull (imparted acceleration) provided they are in a vacuum. This is why a feather and a quarter don't fall at the same rate. The feather has more air resistance than the quarter, but the Earth is pulling on them both just the same.

Force due to gravity = G*m1*m2/r^2 = m1*Gc (assuming r is sufficiently small to make gravity seem to be constant)

G = Gravitational constant
m1 = mass of object 1
m2 = mass of object 2
r = distance separating objects
Gc = acceleration imparted on object 1 by gravity force of character c

Force of friction (static) = u*N = u*m1*g

u = static coefficient of friction
N = Force normal
m1 = mass of object 1
g = acceleration of gravity at Earth's surface (9.8m/s^2)

So, the force of gravity created by a superhero must overcome the force of friction to get an object into motion. Which means that:

m1*Gc > u*m1*g
Gc > u*g

to make the object move. If u = .2, then your acceleration constant needs to be 2m/s^2 or greater to make something move. This is why you walking by a car doesn't cause you to fall into the car (or it to come after you).

[Sean Waters]

Gravity decays with distance as it is inversely proportional to r^2. All objects get the same pull (imparted acceleration) provided they are in a vacuum. This is why a feather and a quarter don't fall at the same rate. The feather has more air resistance than the quarter, but the Earth is pulling on them both just the same.

Force due to gravity = G*m1*m2/r^2 = m1*Gc (assuming r is sufficiently small to make gravity seem to be constant)

G = Gravitational constant
m1 = mass of object 1
m2 = mass of object 2
r = distance separating objects
Gc = acceleration imparted on object 1 by gravity force of character c

Force of friction (static) = u*N = u*m1*g

u = static coefficient of friction
N = Force normal
m1 = mass of object 1
g = acceleration of gravity at Earth's surface (9.8m/s^2)

So, the force of gravity created by a superhero must overcome the force of friction to get an object into motion. Which means that:

m1*Gc > u*m1*g
Gc > u*g

to make the object move. If u = .2, then your acceleration constant needs to be 2m/s^2 or greater to make something move. This is why you walking by a car doesn't cause you to fall into the car (or it to come after you).

Well when I said 'decay' I was meaning it doesn't go away over time. I'm not sure that we normally talk about decaying with distance, although you are quite right, it does.

It's years since I've done any of this stuff, but even now I'd assume that if you had a mass great enough to have its own appreciable gravity - enough to pull stuff to it so as you'd notice - sitting on the top of the Earth then the effect would be, in effect, to shift the centre of mass of the planet.

I'm not sure that anything dense enough to actually have such a noticeable gravitational force, and be the size of a character in Hero, could comfortably exist near a planet or, indeed, at all, and, if it did, the gravitational force would be tailing off a lot slower than a normal explosion radius. Of course with something that dense, you can get a lot closer to the centre of mass so you can probably get some pretty intense gravitational effects. Maybe even tidal ones: there would be significantly different gravitational forces on each side of a target's body due to the thickness of it, which would almost certainly prove fatal to most people as it would seriously impede blood flow.

We can safely assume, therefore, that we are not applying the laws of gravity as we know them. That being the case we needn't bother trying to be realistic, but, hey, it's a foible... we can at least strive for rubber realism.

Now we are hindered in our endeavours by not having an actual mechanic for gravity in Hero. We know the effect, but we don't know how that is built.

Sucker, as we shall call High Gravity Lad, should have an interesting effect if above a target: the normal force of gravity is going to be partially or fully cancelled, or maybe even locally reversed, but of course neither of the effects suggested really do that.

I, and this is my only point, prefer UAA flight: with the right power modifiers it can be made to behave quite like gravity cancelling or reversal. I think it is much more difficult to get close with TK. It might be a more accurate representation, in an unmodified form, for a lateral pull to evercome friction, but in almost every other circumstance it is inferior, and UAA flight can be modified to work there too. For instance, if you use a gravity power to make someone float or rise into the air, it makes no sense to me that they should be able to stop that by applying strength, at least once they are beyond the reach of any handy levers or anchors.

[Chris Goodwin]

Star Hero defines 1G as being equivalent to 5 STR Telekinesis. I'd go with that, myself, and handwave the rest.

[Doc Democracy]

Star Hero defines 1G as being equivalent to 5 STR Telekinesis. I'd go with that, myself, and handwave the rest.

This is the difference between science and comics. :) 5 STR TK would not cut it without handwaving.

Now 5 STR TK acting on a freely falling body might produce the necessary acceleration but it would not move enought stuff to work under TK rules and it wouldn't do much in a superhero game that I probably wouldn't give the dense character as a free power stunt using mega density increase.

This might be the best way forward. Agree with the player that he asserts his own gravity field and that objects of x kilos or less will be drawn towards him. It has downsides as well as good ones - imagine trying to have a good time on the beach when the sand continually flows over him...

A zero point colour aspect to the character.

Doc

[GoldenAge]

I have a similar character called Black Hole. He has the ability to become something akin to an actual black hole. He must concentrate to create a gravity well centered on himself. He also can control the gravity to the extent that he can concentrate it on specific individuals... thus tugging but not moving innocents while pulling the baddies toward himself (cuts down on collateral damage - the character would otherwise be useless anywhere other than a corn field :rolleyes: ). Once the bad guys reach him they encounter the complete effects of Black Hole's gravity well and are literally pummeled by gravity (Damage Shield). He can also blast out arcs of energy within his gravity well = Energy Blast.

I put together an Elemental Control in an attempt to depict the power set. I'm not sure if its working. Any thoughts would be welcome!!! :)


Black Hole EC

1) 70 STR TK: AE Radius x2 = 14” (+1 1/4); Selective (+1/4); Pull toward body only (-1), No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)

2) Force Field: (30 rPD, 30 rED); Hardened (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Activation 8- (-2)

3) Damage Shield: 12d6 EB; Continuous (+1); Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Concentrate to turn on - 0 DCV (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2)

4) Energy Blast: 14d6 AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4) -- Range = 7” Sphere from BH

Additional Powers -

3d6 Flash: Normal Sight Group; AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Linked to EB (-1/2)

Change Environment: Photo-Negative sight and high winds blowing inward toward Black Hole - within range of Telekinesis and Energy Blast; Linked to TK (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-1)

[Utech]

Here's a shot out of left field...

Try Change Environment with Explosion and No Range. Work with the GM to establish a Mass Roll (similar to a Characteristic-based Roll).

GM rules that anyone moving into the "gravity well" has to

make a Mass Roll at -??? or
apply at least ??? inches of a movement power away from the mutant hero.

Anyone who fails to meet these conditions begins to "slide" toward the mutant hero. If they strike the hero (or anything else) it is as though they are performing a 0 STR Move Through.

Establishing the Mass Roll is a real trick, I understand. Consider basing it on the Strength Table. Something along these lines:
6.4 KG = 3-
8 KG = 4-
12.5 KG = 5-
16 KG = 6-
25 KG = 7-
37 KG = 8-
50 KG = 9-
75 KG = 10-
100 KG = 11-
150 KG = 12-
200 KG = 13-
300 KG = 14-
400 KG = 15-
600 KG = 16-
800 KG = 17-
1200 KG = 18-
1600 KG = 19-
etc.

Naturally, you can buy your Change Environment to slap a penalty on the Mass Roll. Your GM can (and should) add additional bonuses or penalties if the object in question is, say...


on a sheet of ice
bolted down
hovering
on rollers facing the right way
on rollers facing the wrong way

etc.

[Chris Goodwin]

This is the difference between science and comics. :) 5 STR TK would not cut it without handwaving.

Right, but when I first got into the HERO System, it was a game about comic book superheroes. Over time it's turned into a game of cinematic action.

It's never been, to my knowledge, been a science roleplaying game.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Wow, so many suggestions and I still have no idea which one suits it best. TK works well because it grabs them when they get in range and they can try to resist it. The thing about gravity is you can beat it with enough force. If someone has a more powerful flight power, then they can break free.

If I use movement suppression, it still models accurately the difficulty of moving under another gravity field.

If flight UAA is used then I can really have fun with the whole attraction and repelling game.

Decisions, decisions....

[Scifi_Toughguy]

I have a similar character called Black Hole. He has the ability to become something akin to an actual black hole. He must concentrate to create a gravity well centered on himself. He also can control the gravity to the extent that he can concentrate it on specific individuals... thus tugging but not moving innocents while pulling the baddies toward himself (cuts down on collateral damage - the character would otherwise be useless anywhere other than a corn field :rolleyes: ). Once the bad guys reach him they encounter the complete effects of Black Hole's gravity well and are literally pummeled by gravity (Damage Shield). He can also blast out arcs of energy within his gravity well = Energy Blast.

I put together an Elemental Control in an attempt to depict the power set. I'm not sure if its working. Any thoughts would be welcome!!! :)


Black Hole EC

1) 70 STR TK: AE Radius x2 = 14” (+1 1/4); Selective (+1/4); Pull toward body only (-1), No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)

2) Force Field: (30 rPD, 30 rED); Hardened (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Activation 8- (-2)

3) Damage Shield: 12d6 EB; Continuous (+1); Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Concentrate to turn on - 0 DCV (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2)

4) Energy Blast: 14d6 AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4) -- Range = 7” Sphere from BH

Additional Powers -

3d6 Flash: Normal Sight Group; AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Linked to EB (-1/2)

Change Environment: Photo-Negative sight and high winds blowing inward toward Black Hole - within range of Telekinesis and Energy Blast; Linked to TK (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-1)


Does he have to buy the personal immunity for his AoE, no range TK or is the forcefield supposed to compensate for that?

[Tonio]

Does he have to buy the personal immunity for his AoE, no range TK or is the forcefield supposed to compensate for that?

Well, it's Selective, so I guess he can simply choose not to attack himself. :D

Not to mention that even if he did target himself, he'd only pull himself towards himself. :nonp:

[GoldenAge]

Well, it's Selective, so I guess he can simply choose not to attack himself. :D

Not to mention that even if he did target himself, he'd only pull himself towards himself. :nonp:

Yep

Keep it simple. I try to never add stuff to a power just to add stuff to a power. :thumbup:

[Maur]

If I use movement suppression, it still models accurately the difficulty of moving under another gravity field.

If flight UAA is used then I can really have fun with the whole attraction and repelling game.

Decisions, decisions....

Well, suppressing movement isn't quite accurate. They should be able to come at you faster than away from you (going down the gravity well rather than up it)

[SteveZilla]

Black Hole EC

1) 70 STR TK: AE Radius x2 = 14” (+1 1/4); Selective (+1/4); Pull toward body only (-1), No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)

2) Force Field: (30 rPD, 30 rED); Hardened (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Activation 8- (-2)

3) Damage Shield: 12d6 EB; Continuous (+1); Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Concentrate to turn on - 0 DCV (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2)

4) Energy Blast: 14d6 AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4) -- Range = 7” Sphere from BH

Additional Powers -

3d6 Flash: Normal Sight Group; AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Linked to EB (-1/2)

Change Environment: Photo-Negative sight and high winds blowing inward toward Black Hole - within range of Telekinesis and Energy Blast; Linked to TK (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-1)

1. He doesn't need Personal Immunity on the TK because it's Selective (and has "Pull toward body only (-1)"). Though I am curious why you used the combination of AoE and Reduced By Range instead of just Explosion? Especially since Reduced By Range doesn't happen since there is No Range.

2. His Force Field goes on-and-off from Phase to Phase depending upon the 8- Activation Roll for what reason?

3. "Concentrate to turn on - 0 DCV (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2)" is not IMO a good combination of Limitations. The Activation Roll just about guarantees that it will turn off sooner or later, which means to start it up again the character must do the Concentration again.

4. Why not Explosion instead of AoE/Reduced By Range? Technically, since it has No Range, it never gets Reduced By Range. "He can also blast out arcs of energy within his gravity well = Energy Blast." Drop the Reduced By Range and Change the AoE Radius to Explosion and make it drop 2 DCs per inch -- giving a 7-inch "maximum" area/range. Because it's selective, he doesn't need Personal Immunity here either.

I'm not sure what the "Photo-Negative sight" part of the Change Environment is? Is it the effect where all colors are flipped to their chromatic opposite?

I think you need to buy up the area of the Change Environment to match the EB's 7" 'area' -- it doesn't get to piggyback for free.

I see a problem with having "Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)" on the TK. The problem I see with Concentration is the "... only dimly aware of nearby events" line in the description. The caveat of "although if he uses the power to attack someone, he's fully aware of his target and what that target is doing." doesn't offset this. You'd be aware of those you target when you activate the power, but would become "only dimly aware" of everything else -- including new opponents.

[Basil]

Telekinesis: STR 40 AoE Radius (+1) Personal immunity (+1/4) 135 AP, No Range (-1/2) Affects Whole Object (-1/4) Real cost 77

I also am a bit fuzzy on how the radius will turn out. According to my understanding it'll be calculated on 75 AP so does that make it a 7.5 hex radius of affection?
Um, radius of effect; a "radius of affection" would be how far love/care/liking could be felt. Oh, and you get to round up to 8 hexes.


1) 70 STR TK: AE Radius x2 = 14” (+1 1/4); Selective (+1/4); Pull toward body only (-1), No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)

As a side-note: You have miscalculated the radius.
Area of Effect (Radius):...The area is 1" in radius in all three dimensions for every 10 XXXX Active Points in the Power not counting the Area of Effect Advantage.
IOW, figure the Active Cost as if there was no Area of Effect on the power, then divide that by 10.

70 "STR" TK is 105 base points; with a +1/4 Advantage would be 131 Active Points; giving 13" usually, or 26" when doubled.

[GoldenAge]

1. He doesn't need Personal Immunity on the TK because it's Selective (and has "Pull toward body only (-1)"). Though I am curious why you used the combination of AoE and Reduced By Range instead of just Explosion? Especially since Reduced By Range doesn't happen since there is No Range.

I guess I've always felt that Explosion has an instant effect feel. Since the TK can be continuous I felt more comfortable with my build. As far as range... Um, yes there is range. The radius of effect provides a semblance of range (24" as Basil has pointed out below) and to represent the reduction of the gravity well's affect at longer distances I added Reduced by Range. The farther away from Black Hole gets, the less his pull on them. Got a better idea? I'd be happy to consider anything.

2. His Force Field goes on-and-off from Phase to Phase depending upon the 8- Activation Roll for what reason?

DRAMA! :) Black Hole has the potential to be incredibly powerful in combat. With his Force Field activated he has a total of 50rPD/50rED to protect him from objects/people that his TK sends flying toward him. The chance that his FF might fail makes him think about using his power carelessly and gives him room for character improvement.

3. "Concentrate to turn on - 0 DCV (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2)" is not IMO a good combination of Limitations. The Activation Roll just about guarantees that it will turn off sooner or later, which means to start it up again the character must do the Concentration again.

Again... Drama. I'm building characters, not combat machines. Have a better idea? As I've said above I'm certainly open to any ideas and help I can get. :thumbup:

4. Why not Explosion instead of AoE/Reduced By Range? Technically, since it has No Range, it never gets Reduced By Range. "He can also blast out arcs of energy within his gravity well = Energy Blast." Drop the Reduced By Range and Change the AoE Radius to Explosion and make it drop 2 DCs per inch -- giving a 7-inch "maximum" area/range. Because it's selective, he doesn't need Personal Immunity here either.

Since EB is instant, Explosion makes allot of sense here. I'll definatly consider the change!

I'm not sure what the "Photo-Negative sight" part of the Change Environment is? Is it the effect where all colors are flipped to their chromatic opposite?

Wow, am I so old that no one but me remembers what a photo negative looks like? Darn kids and their digital cameras... GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

Yes, it turns things to black and white and then inverses those two colors. Just a fun black hole effect. :)

I think you need to buy up the area of the Change Environment to match the EB's 7" 'area' -- it doesn't get to piggyback for free.

Yep! :thumbup:

I see a problem with having "Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)" on the TK. The problem I see with Concentration is the "... only dimly aware of nearby events" line in the description. The caveat of "although if he uses the power to attack someone, he's fully aware of his target and what that target is doing." doesn't offset this. You'd be aware of those you target when you activate the power, but would become "only dimly aware" of everything else -- including new opponents.

I'd argue that the caveat of "although if he uses the power to attack someone, he's fully aware of his target and what that target is doing." extends to any new targets. If it didn't, no one would be able to use a power with Concentrate against more than one target. Am I wrong, or is this a tomato/tomahto thing?

[GoldenAge]

As a side-note: You have miscalculated the radius.
70 "STR" TK is 105 base points; with a +1/4 Advantage would be 131 Active Points; giving 13" usually, or 26" when doubled.
Thanks! (sloppy of me)

[Ternaugh]

I keep on picturing other characters using a slingshot effect to speed up by whipping around in the character's gravity well. It would truly be an interesting take on the "Fastball Special", or a really cool way to define Missile Deflection.

JoeG
(Yes, yes, I know. Too much Classic Traveller Book 2 space combat)

[Sean Waters]

Part of the problem is that there is not a power in Hero that allows you to ACCELERATE a target, phse to phase. Gravity is a meta-system.

The only really accurate way to do this (probably) is either (as has been suggested) with change environment, if you can persuade your GM that gravity, like temperature, should be dealt with that way, or some sort of EDM or transform (the ultimate meta-powers).

Of course we are not necessarily after perfect realism, but I'm just saying.

[SteveZilla]

First off, I'd like to mention something about Selective: 5ER says "If a Selective Area Of Effect Power is Constant, the attacker cannot alter whom the power affects every Phase. If he wants to change who's affected, he has to deactivate the power and use it again. If a character enters the area after the power's been established, and the attacker wants to affect him, he must make an Attack Roll to do so; this takes no time."

So, once the Selective AoE TK is in use (i.e., being used on one or more targets), the character can add targets with just another Attack Roll, but to release one target he has to shut the whole power off and then restart it. Which means making another Attack Roll against all the targets he wants to "maintain" his grip against. I'm not sure I agree with this, but that is what the book says.

Also, the book does not directly say if Selective or Nonselective can be applied to a power alongside Explosion. I've asked Steve Long about that (and other things).

--------------------------

Also, about Concentration: 5ER says a few things:

PER of other stuff:
"Furthermore, he is, at best, only dimly aware of nearby events... He may make a PER Roll with a Targeting Sense at -3 to notice any such events."

Movement:
'He may not move more than 1" per Phase, nor may he Dodge or take any other Actions."

Other powers:
"With either level of Concentration, a character cannot activate or use another power with Concentration at the same time, or as long as he has to Concentrate."

I'd argue that the caveat of "although if he uses the power to attack someone, he's fully aware of his target and what that target is doing." extends to any new targets. If it didn't, no one would be able to use a power with Concentrate against more than one target. Am I wrong, or is this a tomato/tomahto thing?

If they aren't targets *yet*, how can he be fully aware of them under this caveat?

I guess I've always felt that Explosion has an instant effect feel.

I can understand the feeling as most explosive effects we encounter are instant in duration -- they go Boom, and that's it. But what about a Hurricane's winds? Something like: Energy Blast vs PD, Explosion, Megascaled Area, Hole In The Middle? ;)

DRAMA! :) Black Hole has the potential to be incredibly powerful in combat. With his Force Field activated he has a total of 50rPD/50rED to protect him from objects/people that his TK sends flying toward him. The chance that his FF might fail makes him think about using his power carelessly and gives him room for character improvement.

Well, I didn't know he already had 20rPD/20rED outside of the EC. :p But the Concentration on the TK (throughout) and the Force Field (Only To Start, IIRC) means that while you can start the FF first, then the TK -- but once the FF shuts off from the Activation Roll, you'd have to shut off the TK to restart the FF.

Again... Drama. I'm building characters, not combat machines. Have a better idea? As I've said above I'm certainly open to any ideas and help I can get. :thumbup:

There's nothing wrong with building a dramatic combat machine. :eg:

Wow, am I so old that no one but me remembers what a photo negative looks like? Darn kids and their digital cameras... GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

Yes, it turns things to black and white and then inverses those two colors. Just a fun black hole effect. :)

Why would it make everything monochromatic before inverting? I think it would be a cooler effect if all the colors were inverted. :) After all there is no such thing as a "white" photon of light. ;)

[Doc Democracy]

First off, I'd like to mention something about Selective: 5ER says "If a Selective Area Of Effect Power is Constant, the attacker cannot alter whom the power affects every Phase. If he wants to change who's affected, he has to deactivate the power and use it again. If a character enters the area after the power's been established, and the attacker wants to affect him, he must make an Attack Roll to do so; this takes no time."

So, once the Selective AoE TK is in use (i.e., being used on one or more targets), the character can add targets with just another Attack Roll, but to release one target he has to shut the whole power off and then restart it. Which means making another Attack Roll against all the targets he wants to "maintain" his grip against. I'm not sure I agree with this, but that is what the book says.

I would have read this as, if you are constantly affecting an area and you want to add or remove people from being affected in the area then you have to switch off the power and switch it back on again. However, if someone enters the area then you can decide whether to affect them or not without switching on and off.

Makes more game sense.


Doc

[GoldenAge]

I would have read this as, if you are constantly affecting an area and you want to add or remove people from being affected in the area then you have to switch off the power and switch it back on again. However, if someone enters the area then you can decide whether to affect them or not without switching on and off.

Makes more game sense.


Doc

Agreed... And since I'm the GM... That's how it works. :D

[Sean Waters]

I said you can't do acceleration in Hero, other than as a meta-construct, and I was wrong. it is just that it is expensive, and pretty pointless unless you add megascale to the AoEs, as you would be out of the radius before you got going. This build increases the velocity by 5" per phase. :D

150 Acceleration due to gravity: Succor UAA Flight 12d6 (standard effect: 36 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Continuous (+1) (150 Active Points)
30 Crushing force: Energy Blast 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense (LS: High pressure/Gravitic powers or defences; +1), Continuous (+1) (45 Active Points); Linked (Acceleration due to gravity; -½)
23 Falling!: Flight 5", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (35 Active Points); Linked (Acceleration due to gravity; -½)

[Chris Goodwin]

Per Star Hero, 1G acceleration is equal to 60/SPD inches per Phase. That amounts to 5" per Segment of movement. That's also in space, assuming you're using the rule that there's no maximum movement in space.

On Earth, in an atmosphere, you're looking at 360/SPD inches per Phase, which comes out to 30" per Segment (terminal velocity). Limit it to a maximum of 5" per Segment per Segment acceleration and you've about got it.

[Sean Waters]

Per Star Hero, 1G acceleration is equal to 60/SPD inches per Phase. That amounts to 5" per Segment of movement. That's also in space, assuming you're using the rule that there's no maximum movement in space.

On Earth, in an atmosphere, you're looking at 360/SPD inches per Phase, which comes out to 30" per Segment (terminal velocity). Limit it to a maximum of 5" per Segment per Segment acceleration and you've about got it.

That works :thumbup: (although it gets exponentially more expensive for higher G fields as terminal velocity doesn't go up in a straight line)

[SteveZilla]

Not to mention that terminal velocity is dependent upon atmospheric density. The denser the atmosphere, the greater the drag and the lower the terminal velocity for a free-falling body (not counting orbital mechanical forces) will be.

[Basil]

I guess I've always felt that Explosion has an instant effect feel. Since the TK can be continuous I felt more comfortable with my build. As far as range... Um, yes there is range. The radius of effect provides a semblance of range (24" as Basil has pointed out below) and to represent the reduction of the gravity well's affect at longer distances I added Reduced by Range. The farther away from Black Hole gets, the less his pull on them. Got a better idea? I'd be happy to consider anything.

Nope, sorry, you've got it wrong. By definition, "Range" on an AoE Radius power is the distance from the causer to the center of the Radius. A "No Range" AoE Radius power has NO RANGE. You cannot put "Reduced by Range" on it, as there's no range for it to be reduced by.

It's a Explosion, plain and simple. As for "Explosion has an instant effect feel"---do not assume any special effect must go with any Power, Limitation, or Advantage. No need to limit Explosion to Instant Power.

SteveZilla gave a good example: A hurricane is an continuous EB with Explosion. Here's another: A highly radioactive spot would be a RKA, NND, Penetrating (x2?), and Explosion.

[Chris Goodwin]

Not to mention that terminal velocity is dependent upon atmospheric density. The denser the atmosphere, the greater the drag and the lower the terminal velocity for a free-falling body (not counting orbital mechanical forces) will be.

First person busts out a physics book or an equation, I'm 'a slap 'em.

;)

[SteveZilla]

First person busts out a physics book or an equation, I'm 'a slap 'em.

;)

...Says the person using a picture of a scientist for his avatar and having a quote about gravitational pull in his signature. ;)

[Maur]

First person busts out a physics book or an equation, I'm 'a slap 'em.

;)

Just because...

Vt = sqrt((2*m*g)/(p*A*Cd))

where
Vt = terminal velocity
m = mass of the falling object
g = gravitational acceleration
Cd = drag coefficient
ρ = density of the fluid through which the object is falling, and
A = projected area of the object.

[Vulcan]

<ducks and waits for it>

[GoldenAge]

Nope, sorry, you've got it wrong. By definition, "Range" on an AoE Radius power is the distance from the causer to the center of the Radius. A "No Range" AoE Radius power has NO RANGE. You cannot put "Reduced by Range" on it, as there's no range for it to be reduced by.

It's a Explosion, plain and simple. As for "Explosion has an instant effect feel"---do not assume any special effect must go with any Power, Limitation, or Advantage. No need to limit Explosion to Instant Power.

Thanks for the clarification... If not the attitude. :rolleyes:

[Tech]

Hmm, all good points. I believe I shall ammend the entry. Not sure how to value the collie's suggested limitations.

Telekinesis: STR 40 Explosion (-1DC/2") +3/4, Personal immunity +1/4 120 AP; Affects whole object -1/4, No Range -1/2, only to push/pull -1/4, Does no damage -1/2 (real cost 48)

Sci-fi, I think it should do damage. I mean, all gravitational wells do that, don't they? ;)

[BoneDaddy]

How about this bad idea: Energy Blast, Explosion, selective, 0 range, personal immunity, indirect (always from opposite direction of attacker), only to cause knockback. Throws them at you, the closer, the harder. Be a good time to have some KBR of your own...

[Sean Waters]

How about this bad idea: Energy Blast, Explosion, selective, 0 range, personal immunity, indirect (always from opposite direction of attacker), only to cause knockback. Throws them at you, the closer, the harder. Be a good time to have some KBR of your own...

That's...insane.

I LIKE it!

[Sean Waters]

Sci-fi, I think it should do damage. I mean, all gravitational wells do that, don't they? ;)

Only if someone drops one on you.

[BoneDaddy]

An interesting facet of this character are some of the disadvantages and limitations he could take. All offensive powers could take "Not vs. EM based defenses" because EM is so much stronger (about 10^39 times) than gravity. He could take a new disadvantage, -5 DCV vs. PD based EBs and RKAs. How hard is it to hit a strong gravity source? Not very.

[Sean Waters]

An interesting facet of this character are some of the disadvantages and limitations he could take. All offensive powers could take "Not vs. EM based defenses" because EM is so much stronger (about 10^39 times) than gravity. He could take a new disadvantage, -5 DCV vs. PD based EBs and RKAs. How hard is it to hit a strong gravity source? Not very.

That is almost worryingly not insane.

[SteveZilla]

Sci-fi, I think it should do damage. I mean, all gravitational wells do that, don't they? ;)

Only when the Tidal Force gets close to the shear/tension strength of the object in question. ;)

[Scifi_Toughguy]

wowswers! You guys are tremendous. Bonedaddy, that write up is bordering on the criminal mastermind category (except this one would obviously work... if not for those darned heroes...).