GM burnout? is it happening to me?

[Wolf]

Ok, so I've been GMing for, oh, 20 years, and pretty steadily for 16 of those. I've found that I'm not satisfied with my games anymore. I'm trying to find out why.

I'm 32, I moved away from my "home" 5 years ago, and I think that some of the gamers just aren't the type that I'm use to... Most are younger, and the story seems to be a bit less important than the mechanics, and I think that's fowling me up... I really don't know.
Some of the new guys don't even read books, they find it's boring... that frustrates me.

Maybe it's my group... I don't know, anyone else had GM burnout? I had a point in time that everyone said my stories were so kewl, but now... I see things like the "one shot" that teh Bunneh (sp might be off) made, and I think, "man, I'd love to be able to come up with stuff like that again."

My group has two somewhat experienced gamers (one only played D&D 3.x, and the other, my wife, has only played since D&D 3.5 came out, thought to her credit she has played Hero, D&D 3.5, and WHFRP) and 3 gamers who are entirely new (two play WOW hard core, one actually reads, and watches anime). outside of my wife, they're all about 21.

We have decided to try out 4e, and so that's what were doing. I think it's an ok system, personally like it better than 3.x. I've started them in a vally that has been shut off from the rest of the world because of large doors trapping everyone inside. 900 years ago the ruling kingdom realized that they would be getting into a war, and so decided to make a repository for society, and so found this large valley where they would house all knowledge and little sections of the kingdom as a whole. All friendly races would be included, and so were. During construction the doors closed, and an incomplete valley was left alone. Current year, Goblins have infested a forest in the north west of the valley, they will come across one of the older eladrin citadels that used to jump back and forth to the feywild, but accidentally jumped to Shadowfell (so undead) during their scouring of the forest. Eventually they will get out of the valley, and I hope this is near 10th level...

This just seems bla to me. I just don't feel that this is all that sweeping or epic. Maybe it's the lack of roleplay, I don't know. I'm just unsure what's eating at me. Has anyone else ever had GM burnout, do you know how to combat it?

[Vulcan]

You're feeling kind of 'blah' and still came up with that little bit of excellence? I wish I could have gamed with you when you were still enthusiastic about it; I bet your games were epic!

In my experience, there are only two cures for GM burnout. The first is a new idea for a game to run that gets you really excited. The second is a chance to sit back and play, and let someone else take over the GM spot for a while.

[Fitz]

I've been through it before, and I'm going through it right now. GMing has turned into a chore rather than a pleasure, and based on past experience I find the only cure is to take a break. Sometimes the break only needs to be for a month or two, but I have had a time when I'd neither GM or even play for over a year, and was all the better for it when the juices started flowing again.

[Nolgroth]

I've been through it before, and I'm going through it right now. GMing has turned into a chore rather than a pleasure, and based on past experience I find the only cure is to take a break. Sometimes the break only needs to be for a month or two, but I have had a time when I'd neither GM or even play for over a year, and was all the better for it when the juices started flowing again.What he said. Going through my own GM Burnout Break right now. :)

[GoldenAge]

A lot of it is about player participation. I get burned out when I feel like I'm there every week to entertain a group of players that has absolutely no desire to participate during the game or later, with character development.

When I feel the collaboration between players and GM, when it's obvious that the players have dedicated themselves to co-creating an adventure... That's when it's good. We feed off of each other and input from players, be it good role-playing, a written story or even a great character background generates a better game.

I labeled the city we play in Epic City because the intent was to create epic stories. This can only be done if everyone is onboard and working toward that end goal.

In part, I do blame WoW and other games of a similar ilk. Young gamers today are spoiled by computer generated stories and characters. They have access to scenarios that have been laid out for them in grand scale and amazing detail. While they sit silently a world of wonder explodes on the screen in front of them and their only chore is to make it to the end.

That’s exactly how some of my 20-something players approach tabletop gaming. They sit there, wide eyed and silent as I talk myself horse trying to make up for the void their lack of participation leaves behind. Their imaginations are engaged; they love the story and their characters but neglect the work necessary to become part of an epic story.

This trait, thankfully, is reversible. After 7 years in my current location and after starting and stopping several campaigns many of those WoW gamers are really starting to invest some effort in the game they’re playing. Things are looking up! :thumbup:

[GoldenAge]

GMing has turned into a chore rather than a pleasure, and based on past experience I find the only cure is to take a break.

I've found that even better than a flat-out break is to let another person GM. Within a few weeks I've already become frustrated with the new game and the GMing juices are boiling (as I sit back and silently improve upon the current GM's game). In no time I'm back in the saddle!!! :D

[Wolf]

You're feeling kind of 'blah' and still came up with that little bit of excellence? I wish I could have gamed with you when you were still enthusiastic about it; I bet your games were epic!

I was once a known GM in the Tri-state (sometimes by people I had never even heard of. That was a scary experience, some chick overheard a friend call me by name, and then loudly begged me to be in one of my games, right in the middle of a "Games People Play" store!). But thank you for that, I do feel that it could be a good concept, but... I think this next one hit's the nail on the head...


A lot of it is about player participation. I get burned out when I feel like I'm there every week to entertain a group of players that has absolutely no desire to participate during the game or later, with character development.

When I feel the collaboration between players and GM, when it's obvious that the players have dedicated themselves to co-creating an adventure... That's when it's good. We feed off of each other and input from players, be it good role-playing, a written story or even a great character background generates a better game.

I labeled the city we play in Epic City because the intent was to create epic stories. This can only be done if everyone is onboard and working toward that end goal.

In part, I do blame WoW and other games of a similar ilk. Young gamers today are spoiled by computer generated stories and characters. They have access to scenarios that have been laid out for them in grand scale and amazing detail. While they sit silently a world of wonder explodes on the screen in front of them and their only chore is to make it to the end.

That’s exactly how some of my 20-something players approach tabletop gaming. They sit there, wide eyed and silent as I talk myself horse trying to make up for the void their lack of participation leaves behind. Their imaginations are engaged; they love the story and their characters but neglect the work necessary to become part of an epic story.

This trait, thankfully, is reversible. After 7 years in my current location and after starting and stopping several campaigns many of those WoW gamers are really starting to invest some effort in the game they’re playing. Things are looking up! :thumbup:

Seriously, I think you have it. I think I feel like I'm doing all the work. Heck, I was even corrected as to how the powers work while I was giving cool flavor text on a npc death, before he even realized that was what I was doing. He apologized later, but still, to be stopped in the middle of "this is what you're doing" just to say, No- it says..." is crap.

I also think that there was a point a while ago (read as before Wow or Evercrack) where players worked with a GM because that was the only game in town, and now I get this attitude like, "well, I could be doing other things... so why should I even try this "Hero" game, it looks too different than D&D X.x. No thanks, I'll just head home and play Wow." And so I feel like I've got to compete with the other games, just to run mine. I can compete with another GM, no prob, that's cool. But what's with this attitude....

One more thing, 7 years! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Teaching people to RP was easy, I think they come to the table with preconceived notions... you have to un-learn some crap, then start teaching... I don't know if I'm disheartened or not now. :(

[GoldenAge]

One more thing, 7 years! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Teaching people to RP was easy, I think they come to the table with preconceived notions... you have to un-learn some crap, then start teaching... I don't know if I'm disheartened or not now. :(

To be honest... Much of that time was spent weeding through the untrainable flotsam of players that surfaced to play my games. I've finally settled on a game with a good group of participating players. It's actually only taken a year or so to really get them into contributing. Yes, a few are avid computer gamers, but they've seen the light of human interaction and are becoming great players. :D

[Wolf]

JOY (ala ren voice), I can only hope for similar luck, I'm stuck in the desert for another 3 years, and then I get to go back home. Only time will tell... but I've got a game tonight, and I'm not even excited about it. I'm more "meh" about it.

I hope that I can correct this... we really don't have any other GM's, and I don't have any other players.

[Maur]

Aside from a little heat in the summer I like this desert of ours. Only have to deal with snow if I choose to when I go skiing :)

[Wolf]

I was born here, my wife was too. I lived back east for most of my life, I got the cold in my blood, no insult intended (and when I complain my wife is usually the first to be butt-hurt), but I really can't stand it here. I have to have an apartment with free electricity so that I can keep it at 67 degrees. I'm just not happy at temperatures higher than 90 or so in the hottest summer. And I can't fall asleep in anything over 70. I'm just not set up to handle this place, that's all.

[teh bunneh]

Maybe it's my group... I don't know, anyone else had GM burnout? I had a point in time that everyone said my stories were so kewl, but now... I see things like the "one shot" that teh Bunneh (sp might be off) made, and I think, "man, I'd love to be able to come up with stuff like that again."

I was getting burned out with my regular game, so I told my players I was putting it on hiatus for a while. Since then, we've been playing short games, one-shots, card games, board games, that sort of thing. We're giving people who don't normally GM a chance to sit at that end of the table just for a couple of games -- nothing elaborate or fancy, just an opportunity for them to try it out. We're also trying out games that we'd normally never do (like D&D4).

That's my advice. Shake it up a little. Try something new. Do some one-shots. Don't focus too much on story or character development, just throw monsters at the PCs for a little while.

Just my 2 cents. :)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I was getting burned out with my regular game, so I told my players I was putting it on hiatus for a while. Since then, we've been playing short games, one-shots, card games, board games, that sort of thing. We're giving people who don't normally GM a chance to sit at that end of the table just for a couple of games -- nothing elaborate or fancy, just an opportunity for them to try it out. We're also trying out games that we'd normally never do (like D&D4).

That's my advice. Shake it up a little. Try something new. Do some one-shots. Don't focus too much on story or character development, just throw monsters at the PCs for a little while.

Just my 2 cents. :)Agreed. It can also help to switch up the genre temporarily. If you usually play fantasy exclusively, try a miniseries or a couple of one-shots in some other genre you and your players like.

I know that finding new players can be challenging, but sometimes bringing in new blood can help. Even if it's only one new player, that can often shift the group dynamic enough to make things fresh. :)

[Wolf]

Teh and Derek, Thanks. I think that I'm going to put us on break for a week or two... and re-structure my campaign to fit a more "basic" outline.

This group really just got put together, we actually formed because one of the kids at work asked why I called myself a gamer, but never played video games, and so I told him I play RPG's... about an hour later he was confused, so I told him to go to the D&D worldwide game day that was going on that weekend.
He did and loved it...
After about a month or two (or three or four, I really don't remember) 4e was coming out in a month or so. And I got into a conversation with him and some others... and here we are, only about a month in, a small group of 20's-ish kids, my wife and I, and one of my buddies from another game that fell apart after work, throwing dice.

The good news is they are loving it, as they have only video games to compare with really, and I'm glad. It's just, I guess, not scratching my itch? maybe with some space to think I'll be a little better. We'll play some board games like Runebound and Shadows Over Camelot and get back to it in a week or two (or three, whatever the case may be).

I think it's just the orientation of these guys, usually when getting people into an rpg I tell them that it's like reading a book, but you get to choose what the hero does, as I see video games as being more like movies. For the first time in my life I actually got a few disgusted looks at the idea of actually reading a book for pleasure. Heck, one of our players is a Naruto fan, and is actually ticked off that he's now cought up, and would have to read the manga to see what's going on... as even the manga seems to be "too much" reading. Seriously, last night that very thing came out of his mouth, and he's proud that he thinks reading is stupid (and a waste of time). I just don't know how to come into contact with that mentality... He's a good kid, I like him other than that.

In my day geeks/nerds/roleplayers were mainly educated, and mostly obscenely intelligent. Sure there were the few exceptions, but I've never thought that... well, I'd see this. Maybe I just don't know what my problem is, I've been told that I'm going to end up being one of those old men that hate everything new and young. Maybe I'm just missing my old group, we had problems, but we meshed on the table (and in airsoft, but that's another story). I've thought that I just might be getting out of touch with the more modern mindset of gamers also.

Thanks for everyones suggestions, I'm going to use them/ think on them. It helps me to analyze what is happening to me. I figure once I work it through, I'll be better able to address it.
:king:

[input.jack]

Anyone who GMs for an extended period falls into this eventually, I think.

If you think that maybe a lack of appreciation / participation from your Players is part of the problem, when you go back to GM'ing, try giving them some experiences they -cant- get from an MMO.

MMOs are great for their graphics, their ease of integration (like you said, they just sit back and the story unfolds for them), and the fact that no one has to GM.

BUT!

An MMO, by its very nature, has certain built-in restrictions.

Player Characters cannot change the world, no matter how they try. Only the Devs can do that.

So maybe instead of starting them at 1st level, try starting them at 6th or so. Let them get the feeling of being "local heroes"; people they meet know their names. People come to -them- for help. Give them a problem to solve, like the upsurge of a powerful Orc tribal leader nearby raising an Orc army, and let them actually put an END to it.

Make sure they get the feeling of acocmplishment that they have -permanently- changed the local setting. They have made their local world a better place, and it will STAY that way. In two hours, the Orc Leader and his army arent going to re-spawn ;)

That kind of one-on-one interaction, and Player-driven changes to the local setting, are totally lacking in MMOs, by necessity. After all, there are 1000's of Players in an MMO. There are only about a half dozen in your campaign world.

Once they get a taste of what its like to -really- make a difference, their interest should pick up. As should their level of participation. And by association, your interest might just pick up as well :)

[mayapuppies]

Wow, I thought i was just an old curmudgeon, but Wolf is going through exactly what I experienced a couple of years ago.

My group had fallen apart for myriad reasons and I went on a hiatus of a couple of years without gaming. When I moved to a new city, I thought I'd get back into it. That's when I ran into exactly what Wolf is going through..."Kids These days" syndrome.

I thought I was losing my mind, but it appears that my thoughts on the reasons why actually, mirror GoldenAge's. After many starts and stops I was finally able to get a decent group together, but by then I was burned out by the "New Kids On The Block" that I was no longer enthused about running a face-to-face...of course then I moved to Virginia and now I have to start all over again, and honestly...I'm seriously thinking I may not want to go through all of that headache again and just stick with my HeroCentral games.

[Wolf]

Well then the issue becomes; teaching people to participate. So many people are so focused on the rules and not the story.

Example from my last game (and this was one of the more experienced players); They spent the last two days board out of their skulls, so they decided to train with the military (they were at an outpost while the Ranger and Fighter made their reports about a local Goblin infestation, the leadership was drafting letters that the Heroes would take to the Lords Council). I decided to give them a weapon prof. in Halbard to the ones who trained for two solid days (I'm a big fan of giving troops polearms, and city guards also). Two of my players (the Rouge and the Mage) were appreciative of it, but it ended there... my Cleric on the other hand went to purchase one, fine. But he then said, "Hey, I get a reach weapon without having to purchase a Feat, I'm gonna use it." That just got to me...

I mean that mentality just confounds me. No in character reasoning, I would have even taken that he had figured out that he liked the weapon as he used it, but no. It was like, the DM is giving out freebies, and I'm going to take advantage of that. All stats no spirit.

No even "wow, that's cool, I appreciate it, I think I'll use this now." Just, "hey, if you want to give stuff away, I'll abuse it." yoink!

I don't know, but that's bothering me a bit... I've never had problems giving little rewards out before, but that is not what I felt this was... mainly because of what he said, and how he's looking at it.

[Captain Obvious]

Wow, I thought i was just an old curmudgeon, but Wolf is going through exactly what I experienced a couple of years ago.

My group had fallen apart for myriad reasons and I went on a hiatus of a couple of years without gaming. When I moved to a new city, I thought I'd get back into it. That's when I ran into exactly what Wolf is going through..."Kids These days" syndrome.

I thought I was losing my mind, but it appears that my thoughts on the reasons why actually, mirror GoldenAge's. After many starts and stops I was finally able to get a decent group together, but by then I was burned out by the "New Kids On The Block" that I was no longer enthused about running a face-to-face...of course then I moved to Virginia and now I have to start all over again, and honestly...I'm seriously thinking I may not want to go through all of that headache again and just stick with my HeroCentral games.

In my experience, the East coast is much more Hero friendly than the West. Poke around a little before you abandon face-to-face gaming altogether.

[stan da ork]

I don't know about GM burnout, but I can definitely sympathize with roleplaying burnout in general:

About eight years ago, when I was in college and gaming a lot, a friend of mine ran a Legend of the Five Rings game. It was, in my opinion, the best campaign I have ever played in. It wasn't particularly long (last about half the school year, so around five months), but it was the best true ROLE playing game I had ever been a part of. It was the only game I played in where every player was willing to really roleplay their character (and every character ended up with an interesting personality); we had conflicts between PCs that didn't end in real world fights; and it was the only character I've ever played that (in game) fell in love, got married, and retired to the country to raise a family. After that campaign ended, every game afterwards always just kind of fell short for me, mostly because the real roleplaying just wasn't there. As college drew to a close, and people in the group moved away and got jobs and started families, we all found less time for gaming, and as a result our games became less like roleplaying, and more like wargaming. The characters just never had much life, the stories were dull, and there was more focus on how to tactically overcome the next obstacle. After a few years of that, I realized I just wasn't enjoying gaming anymore, and I bowed out of the group.

That was about three years ago now, and I haven't really roleplayed since. Which is a shame, as recently I've had some interesting ideas for games I would like to run, but no players for those games.

This brings me to a second thing I wanted to mention - some groups are just not compatible, and no amount of time is going to fix that problem. Since my college group dissolved, I have played in two roleplaying sessions, and both were a complete bust. The first involved a group with two of my old friends, and several people they had started gaming with. The game was a mindless D&D hack and slash, plus halfway through the session half the people started smoking weed. Needless to say, one session with that group was enough. The second attempt was with the same two friends, plus a guy we found through AccessDenied, and the session devolved into more mindless hack and slash.

I'm not really sure what my original point was, other than some people just like to play a certain way, and if the group you have found doesn't mesh, then maybe is just doesn't mesh and it is time to start looking for a different group.

[Jhaierr]

I feel for you, Wolf. I don't know if I could handle running a game with players who didn't really care about much else but the mechanics. I remember a few players like that back in my high school days. Good GMing is like pearls to the swine sometimes. :p

[SatinKitty]

If any kid ever said to me that he thought reading was stupid and a waste of time, I might knock him upside the head. I object to the idea that anti-intellectualism and illiteracy are cool.

[Vulcan]

I wouldn't bother. I'd just send him on his way. I have no interest in being around willfully ignorant people.

[Sir Ofeelya]

I suffered big time GM burnout. It manafests itself as pointless dallying in various campaign genres,flailing around trying to find something that captures my imagination (some Traveller, 2300AD, Western, Tekumel, Theives World etc etc). I am finally getting my teeth set into another Harn campaign.

I try to make sure I have other interests to take up the gaming sleck. To that end I manage and coach junior rugby at representative level. Taking 22 12 year olds on a three day rugby trip is good practice for handling gamers.

[Markdoc]

That's my advice. Shake it up a little. Try something new. Do some one-shots. Don't focus too much on story or character development, just throw monsters at the PCs for a little while.

The best thing to get the GM'ing engine going is to be a player for a while - at least for me. If you don't have another player who will take GM'ing duty for a while (and I've been in that spot) the second best thing is to try something different.

You can do the thing teh bunneh suggested or (what works for me) just GM a different game. When I was burned out on my regular fantasy game, I ran a game - with a single defined story arc - based in Medieval Japan. After that, I wanted a complete change of pace so I ran a short, dark, high-player-mortality game set in the WH40K universe.

Those lat two have the advantage that the background was familiar to most of the players and to me, so my prep work was pretty limited: make up a plot, some NPCs and go.

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Example from my last game (and this was one of the more experienced players); They spent the last two days board out of their skulls, so they decided to train with the military (they were at an outpost while the Ranger and Fighter made their reports about a local Goblin infestation, the leadership was drafting letters that the Heroes would take to the Lords Council). I decided to give them a weapon prof. in Halbard to the ones who trained for two solid days (I'm a big fan of giving troops polearms, and city guards also). Two of my players (the Rouge and the Mage) were appreciative of it, but it ended there... my Cleric on the other hand went to purchase one, fine. But he then said, "Hey, I get a reach weapon without having to purchase a Feat, I'm gonna use it." That just got to me...

I mean that mentality just confounds me. No in character reasoning, I would have even taken that he had figured out that he liked the weapon as he used it, but no. It was like, the DM is giving out freebies, and I'm going to take advantage of that. All stats no spirit.

No even "wow, that's cool, I appreciate it, I think I'll use this now." Just, "hey, if you want to give stuff away, I'll abuse it." yoink!
Yep, that is exactly the mentality I'm talking about.

I don't know, but that's bothering me a bit... I've never had problems giving little rewards out before, but that is not what I felt this was... mainly because of what he said, and how he's looking at it.
And this is exactly how/why I feel this way.

[Shaft]

I suspect that what is happening with you, Wolf, is not so much GM Burnout as it is a disconnect from your players. Your GMing skills seem to be fine. You are still creative and itching for an audience that you feel appreciates your effort. Without that positive feedback, you're less able to assess your creations for the good work that they are.

RPGs are an interactive process between players and the GM (as well as between the players themselves). Different players might have different needs. At one end of the "spectrum" are the "war gamers", who get off on tactics, acquiring cool stuff, and body count. This is the crowd that likes MMO games since a computer interface meets these needs. On the other side are the "artsy" types. These are the guys who write lengthy backstories, refuse to go along with the party because "their character wouldn't do that", bluebook short novels about what their characters do between sessions and remember more details about the NPCs than the GM himself.

Obviously, the extremes at either end are problematic, but most players tend to fall somewhere to the "right or left" of center (if you look at art and tactics as two ends of a spectrum). GMs also have their preferences, and their style of campaign reflects their style. It sounds like you are a story based GM overseeing a bunch of tactical war gamers.

A lot of players from one side look down on the other side. A lot of story themed players bash the hack and slash crowd, but the truth is that if a group likes hacking and slashing and has a good time doing it, there's nothing wrong with it. At the same time, the war gaming crowd should be tolerant of the gamers who enjoy sessions that are all about character interaction where no dice rolls are made.

The simplest solution is to get new, compatible players, but that only works on paper where people's feelings don't get hurt and such players are easy to find. A more realistic option to compromise and try to blend the elements.

If a PC likes getting Feats and you like the backstory, stretch it out and make him train for it, with an NPC sensei (or equivalent term) that he can build a rapport with. Describe a montage that details their progress. Have him play out a mock fight during the first part in which he is untrained. At that time, another student becomes his rival and trash talks a bit with him at dinner in the mess hall. A bar brawl ensues, followed by some punishment detail. The next day, the PC, still untrained, faces off against that rival NPC. If he rolls well (say a critical success)- assign him a partial bonus- a permanent +1 and say that he figures out a technique that lets him get a good swipe in. Eventually, he gets enough bonuses to counter the penalties, and at that point he has the Feat (for free in game mechanics, but he earned it storywise). Meanwhile the rival is a story thread that he can buy into. Perhaps the rival ends up becoming a loyal friend after the PC saves his life on the battlefield. Or he becomes an enemy after being showed up once too many times, and they face off for real... Or both.

The point is that the "war gamer" player enjoys getting the Feat and is probably enjoying your game because of the advancement. He needs to be pulled out of his shell to start "acting" or seek non-combat interaction, so the trick is to motivate him by dangling skills/feats or other tanglible items on his character sheet as a reward for stories.

Similarly, there are two ways you can view the same situation: imagine "The Bride" in "Kill Bill" movie during the scene where she goes to get a Hanzo sword. The tactical game would just have a player saying I go to the swordsmith and get a +5 katanna. The story-based game has the interaction where the PC has to persuade Hanzo (a named NPC now) to break his vow to never make another "instrument of death"; the +5 sword isn't just a statistic. Each sword that bears his name is a work of art, and this particular sword is his finest sword ever. "If you should encounter God on your journey, God will be cut." He then cautions the player about the dangers of singlemindedly pursuing vengreance.

Either way the PC gets a +5 sword, but adding a story into it makes it that much more than a +5 sword.

Another trick I find that helps is using some kind of miniatures to at least position the characters in a scene. Story-based gamers tend to be okay with abstract scenes, while tactical gamers like their battle maps. Even if you don't count squares and guestimate distances, at least placing figures in position on a designated space gives the tacticians' brain something to chew on. Some people can visualise the scene entirely in their imagination while others like the prop that a combat map offers.

If you want more insight into reading your players, see if you can dig up Robin's Laws- by Robin Laws ( http://www.sjgames.com/robinslaws/ ). It's a 32 page minibook (38 in pdf) that breaks down players into seven different types listed here for your convenience: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/models/robinslaws.html

[GoldenAge]

I suspect that what is happening with you, Wolf, is not so much GM Burnout as it is a disconnect from your players. Your GMing skills seem to be fine. You are still creative and itching for an audience that you feel appreciates your effort. Without that positive feedback, you're less able to assess your creations for the good work that they are.

RPGs are an interactive process between players and the GM (as well as between the players themselves). Different players might have different needs. At one end of the "spectrum" are the "war gamers", who get off on tactics, acquiring cool stuff, and body count. This is the crowd that likes MMO games since a computer interface meets these needs. On the other side are the "artsy" types. These are the guys who write lengthy backstories, refuse to go along with the party because "their character wouldn't do that", bluebook short novels about what their characters do between sessions and remember more details about the NPCs than the GM himself.

Obviously, the extremes at either end are problematic, but most players tend to fall somewhere to the "right or left" of center (if you look at art and tactics as two ends of a spectrum). GMs also have their preferences, and their style of campaign reflects their style. It sounds like you are a story based GM overseeing a bunch of tactical war gamers.

A lot of players from one side look down on the other side. A lot of story themed players bash the hack and slash crowd, but the truth is that if a group likes hacking and slashing and has a good time doing it, there's nothing wrong with it. At the same time, the war gaming crowd should be tolerant of the gamers who enjoy sessions that are all about character interaction where no dice rolls are made.

The simplest solution is to get new, compatible players, but that only works on paper where people's feelings don't get hurt and such players are easy to find. A more realistic option to compromise and try to blend the elements.

If a PC likes getting Feats and you like the backstory, stretch it out and make him train for it, with an NPC sensei (or equivalent term) that he can build a rapport with. Describe a montage that details their progress. Have him play out a mock fight during the first part in which he is untrained. At that time, another student becomes his rival and trash talks a bit with him at dinner in the mess hall. A bar brawl ensues, followed by some punishment detail. The next day, the PC, still untrained, faces off against that rival NPC. If he rolls well (say a critical success)- assign him a partial bonus- a permanent +1 and say that he figures out a technique that lets him get a good swipe in. Eventually, he gets enough bonuses to counter the penalties, and at that point he has the Feat (for free in game mechanics, but he earned it storywise). Meanwhile the rival is a story thread that he can buy into. Perhaps the rival ends up becoming a loyal friend after the PC saves his life on the battlefield. Or he becomes an enemy after being showed up once too many times, and they face off for real... Or both.

The point is that the "war gamer" player enjoys getting the Feat and is probably enjoying your game because of the advancement. He needs to be pulled out of his shell to start "acting" or seek non-combat interaction, so the trick is to motivate him by dangling skills/feats or other tanglible items on his character sheet as a reward for stories.

Similarly, there are two ways you can view the same situation: imagine "The Bride" in "Kill Bill" during the scene where she goes to get a Hanzo sword. The tactical game would just have a player saying I go to the swordsmith and get a +5 katanna. The story-based game has the interaction where the PC has to persuade Hanzo (a named NPC now) to break his vow to never make another "instrument of death"; the +5 sword isn't just a statistic. Each sword that bears his name is a work of art, and this particular sword is his finest sword ever. "If you should encounter God on your journey, God will be cut." He then cautions the player about the dangers of pursuoing vengreance.

Either way the PC gets a +5 sword, but adding a story into it makes it that much more than a +5 sword.
Shaft, your point in entirely valid... The first suggestion (to "get new, compatible players") is a good solution (assuming the pool of players in his area is vast - something, as you also noted, I've found to be contrary to the truth). But later you suggest a blending of the elements... Isn't this close to where he already is?

I can just imagine (no, not imagine... I've been there) a scenario where the GM creates a beautiful world filled with incredible encounters wherein the players are fed trinkets like carrots to a stubborn mule. Once again the GM is entertaining an unresponsive and maybe even unappreciative crowd whose only reason for participation are bobbles and bright thingies. Eventually, GM burnout will once again be a problem as the GM tires of putting all that effort into a game that would be just as entertaining to the players as a simple dungeon crawl. :rolleyes:

The truth is... Unless you can retrain your players (unlikely, but possible) or find new players that share your love for story and drama the possibility of GM burnout is always on the horizon.

[GoldenAge]

Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering...

The Great, Immutable, Ironclad Law [of GMing]:
There is only one way to roleplay: the way that achieves the best balance between the various desires of your particular group...

Accepting that each player’s preferences and desires should be given roughly equal weight first requires us to compromise on our own tastes. This is easier said than done. Many of us become Game Masters in the first place because we want greater control over the gaming experience. We want to express our creativity and try out the cool ideas we’ve had bubbling away in the back of our minds.

It’s all about striking a balance. If we sacrifice our own tastes too much, we’ll get bored, and bored GMs run boring games. On the other hand, the most innovative campaign concept in the world means zip if you can’t get your players excited about it.

Interesting.

[Shaft]

I can just imagine (no, not imagine... I've been there) a scenario where the GM creates a beautiful world filled with incredible encounters wherein the players are fed trinkets like carrots to a stubborn mule. Once again the GM is entertaining an unresponsive and maybe even unappreciative crowd whose only reason for participation are bobbles and bright thingies. Eventually, GM burnout will once again be a problem as the GM tires of putting all that effort into a game that would be just as entertaining to the players as a simple dungeon crawl. :rolleyes:

The truth is... Unless you can retrain your players (unlikely, but possible) or find new players that share your love for story and drama the possibility of GM burnout is always on the horizon.

Well, the way I see it, the GM counts as one of those players, so he gets to accomodate himself. In fact, it's critical to avoid burnout.

It comes down to how unresponsive those players are. A Butt-Kicker might not respond to political machinations and social intrigue, but he might enjoy trash-talking in a bar or at a boxing match/gladitiorial arena, etc... Instead of just jumping into combat, the GM might goad him into exhanging a few words, and then expand on that.

If the GM is looking to tell a story and he sets it up so that a Tactician has to train an army unit and then discovers the satisfaction of seeing "his" troops carry out his plan in battle, that player might suddenly develop a taste for role-playing with the specific purpose of making NPCs perform better.

So yeah, it is "retraining", but it's a little misdirection and a lot of focusing the story interaction along very specific paths tailored to each player.

On that note, there are some players who just won't respond. If that is the case, they may not be compatible with certain GMs.

[Wolf]

I've taken some time to think about this...
And before I go on, I must thank all of you... I will be giving out rep asap, seriously thanks.
I think it's a combination of all these things. I've got a buddy coming from home to visit for a bit, and I'm going to talk to him about these problems. Needless to say I think I've got my issues nailed down a bit.

1) I'm not running "my style" of game, what I mean is there is too much Technical, and not enough story, and that's bumming me out, that needs to be addressed. If my players don't like it, than I'm sorry, then as much as I enjoy hanging around with some of them (read as while not gaming), then they can find another game, there are lots of them out there.

2) a bit of age disconnect, and I think that I was trying to get to it from their point of view... I now see that I have to run it my way, and it will be seen as the art that it is, if they don't, then they can go back to MMO's.

3) I think there is a bit of homesickness going on. I have been mainly (sure I did a 4 year stint in the army, but out side of that...) playing with the same group of guys since 1985, and I moved out here in 2003. That's a good 18 years, one can tend to get homesick for a group that is that well meshed.

4) I will try to "blend the elements" a bit more than I am, you never know if it will work, if it doesn't then I have a more in depth story.

5) I will stop thinking so much about it, and just do whatever makes me happy, whatever is fun... I've tought players before, and I can again. It's just been so long. Lead by example, right.

Thank you all again, your help has been wonderful.

[GoldenAge]

Good luck! :thumbup:

[Nolgroth]

I was trying to come up with some deep and meaningful way to say exactly what Golden Age managed in two. ;)

Good luck.

[penemue]

Wow, this is something I went through a couple years ago. It lasted about 5 years. So, I just stopped playing as much. They missed it and started emailing me about character ideas, etc. Mind you I have 3 different groups in my current play group: one person who played since 1982, one person who played since 1984, one who played since 1992 and two others who joined in 1993. They are all 40-50 years of age now of course and had to stop from time to time to get corporations back on track, focus on problem kids and deal with jobs, marriages and other stuff that life deals out.
I hate feeling like the entertainer, but to be honest, I can't stand being a player.
We tried Heroclix for off weeks, but they are all so competitive it just lead to bad feelings and stuff. They work best as a team, not opponents.

[Wolf]

We'll see, I'll post an update at some point to see if this has worked. Again thanks for all your help, if you haven't gotten your rep yet, it's because apparently I can only give out so much in one 24 hour period... That's a new one for me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Some of the new guys don't even read books, they find it's boring... that frustrates me.

You've got some great advice on your issue, Wolf. Good luck implementing it.

That line just catches me. We worry that Hero is too math-intensive to attract new gamers. What do we do about its reading-intensiveness?

[teh bunneh]

Another thing you might think about is to try to figure out what each person really wants out o their gaming experience.

One person might like a lot of drama and angst. Introduce a sub-plot in which the character's brother or widowed father suddenly becomes engaged to the character's biggest rival. Is this true love and a chance for the character's father to be happy again, or some plot to embarrass the character? Ooh, drama!

Another person might want to be the most powerful swordsman in the world. Have him get invited to join a warrior's guild, where he can recieve special training in esoteric martial arts (and let him buy some martial art skills or powers that no one else can have). Of course, being a member of this guild carries with it certain responsibilities as well... :sneaky:

Another player might want to become rich and famous. Remember that maiden he rescued from those thugs? Turns out that was the Princess, and the king is so happy to have his daughter back safe and sound that he rewards the character with a stipend and a small barony. Of course, the barony is out in the wilderness, and it needs to be cleared of hostile monsters before settlers will start to come...

That's one of the tricks, to give each player what they want and to use that as a springboard to the next adventure. And each of these things can be played alongside the standard "kill the monsters" fare as well, as sidelines. With any luck (through bluebooking or off-line gaming), they might start to want to focus more on the sub-plots than the monster-killin'. :thumbup:

[Wolf]

You've got some great advice on your issue, Wolf. Good luck implementing it.

That line just catches me. We worry that Hero is too math-intensive to attract new gamers. What do we do about its reading-intensiveness?

For this, I don't think we can do anything... Roleplaying is by necessity something that requires one to read, or enjoy reading... some of the best rules sets, in my humble opinon, read like a set of stereo instructions... but play so wonderfully.

No way around it, you've got to be able to read to play a pen and paper tabletop game.

[Wolf]

General update for those who care... I've got my 4e game still grinding my grits, but I've decided to just plug away at it, and hope I can raise at least one RPer out of the group.

In better news, one of my old buddies from the army has freed himself up in town and we are starting a Champions game, This makes me feel so good. We kicked the characters in with a test combat, and it went well.
I've got my Wife, Buddy, and on of his buddies, and that makes 3, so I'm happy. There is also someone who has asked here on the boards, and we may take him to make 4 pc's... But end point.. I've got a group to play hero, and it's working on me to make me feel in the mood again.

Thank you all for your support.
-Woof.

[ercarlson1974]

I have a situation going on right now that's GM burnout with a bit of a twist. The GM of our fantasy group (home-brewed rule system) is burned out something fierce. He'll come up with a good idea and pour heart and soul into crafting an intricate story based around his idea. We'll play a few sessions, then it will fizzle utterly. I've tried to start some between-game conversations from time to time, but those never went anywhere meaningful.

We've had a few email discussions, and the part that confounds me is that we all seem to agree on the key issues. The GM needs a break. We all still want to play. So we came up with a solution that has been suggested a few times in this thread. We decided to switch gears run a series of semi-connected dungeon crawls, with no linking between them. We the players even offered to GM these adventures on a rotating basis to let the GM play for once.

The twist came in like this. We started out doing a random dungeon crawl as planned. After the first session the GM started writing an intricate, elaborate story line with layers upon layers of NPC stories and hidden agendas. This happened even though we all (even the GM) knew that an interlude of simplicity was the antidote to our gaming doldrums. Now it has happened again. The GM is burned out utterly. Once again we the players are baffled by the Lost-like layers upon layers of story that we have to sift through, where we thought we had all agreed that a few very simple adventures would be welcome.

I get the sense that the GM is addicted (for lack of a better word) to detailed story crafting and simply cannot let go of the GMing reins. Even the players who have romped through this system and setting for as much as 25 years are doing little to nothing to keep the fire going. They say that gaming is a priority for them, but they do nothing to back it up with their actions. The GM is very, very good at what he does, and he and the other players are wonderful people and good friends, but that is clearly not enough to sustain a campaign.

Any thoughts? I am nearing the end of my rope, and I am about ready to cut my ties with this group. If there is any chance of saving it, though, I want to do what I can.

As one other note: my apologies if this seems a little disjointed. I may go back and tweak it later once I've thought it over and slept on it for a few nights.

[Ian Mackinder]

Any thoughts? I am nearing the end of my rope, and I am about ready to cut my ties with this group. If there is any chance of saving it, though, I want to do what I can.

The only suggestion I have is for a complete change of genre and system. Your GM seems to have the whole Fantasy thing sewn up tight, to the point where his old instincts / habits emerge whenever playing in that sort of a game.

So, get him (and the rest of you) completely out of that comfort zone. That means NO fantasy and certainly nothing to do with whichever system you guys favour. Run Pulp HERO instead, or Traveller, or Paranoia, or Cyberpunk, or ... you get the idea.

I am guessing you guys have sunk a fair bit of money into whichever system you are using, so are very reluctant to set all this aside. Fair enough, but that may be a big part of the entire problem. Just keep in mind that you aren't giving that game system up - you are just setting it aside for a little while.

Surely at least some of your group have rules for other RPG systems / genres - they do not need to be multi-volume libraries covering every possible option and contingency. Just the BASICS are all you need for a few games, nothing more. Or, there are various free RPG systems available on the Net, usable for pick-up games at least. Or, you can look in the Bargain Bin at your FLGS - find the cheapest crappiest (non-Fantasy) RPG rules you can, then just go crazy with them. Add bizarre rules, start everybody with triple the standard points, whatever. The whole idea is to Have Fun.

Basically, just change what you are doing. Completely. Not forever, just for a little while. It should help you a lot.

[zornwil]

Another factor here is simply the competition for quality time versus jobs, families, etc., which is more fierce as people get into their 30s and moreso, at least in general as I see it, into their 40s. I think our group is committed in that they really want to play, but between business travel, work projects that take up personal time, pets, kids (colleges, games, etc.), and significant others, and so on, people simply often can't play. I don't know of any magic solution to this although using Skype or the like does help a bit - we've been able to schedule some Skype games where not everyone could have had the time to go somewhere and back.

[ercarlson1974]

The only suggestion I have is for a complete change of genre and system. Your GM seems to have the whole Fantasy thing sewn up tight, to the point where his old instincts / habits emerge whenever playing in that sort of a game.

So, get him (and the rest of you) completely out of that comfort zone. That means NO fantasy and certainly nothing to do with whichever system you guys favour. Run Pulp HERO instead, or Traveller, or Paranoia, or Cyberpunk, or ... you get the idea.

Basically, just change what you are doing. Completely. Not forever, just for a little while. It should help you a lot.

Excellent suggestions all around; thank you! I fired off an email to the group that is basically my final plea. There has been dead silence, and it's already been several days. I am not optimistic, but neither will I give up hope completely.

I do have several rule sets (including Hero of course) that I've offered to use for a change of pace. We'll see what happens. Our current rule set is actually not published at all. It was once 1st edition AD&D and over the course of years it morphed into a totally new rule system and setting. I really enjoy it, and my fellow gamers claim to as well. I hope they can break their devotion to that system long enough to try something else for a bit.

[ercarlson1974]

Another factor here is simply the competition for quality time versus jobs, families, etc., which is more fierce as people get into their 30s and moreso, at least in general as I see it, into their 40s.

I bet this is exactly what's at the root of our current dilemma. People's schedules are already so packed that there's little to no room for gaming. I can't say I blame them either, since families are in truth a higher priority. Much has changed since the group's genesis in the 80s (I've only been part of it for 5 years or so). It wouldn't bother me so much if the others would just be man enough to admit it.

I did offer up Hero Central as a possible route for the game, but that has been shot down. [sigh] Oh well, life goes on.

[zornwil]

I bet this is exactly what's at the root of our current dilemma. People's schedules are already so packed that there's little to no room for gaming. I can't say I blame them either, since families are in truth a higher priority. Much has changed since the group's genesis in the 80s (I've only been part of it for 5 years or so). It wouldn't bother me so much if the others would just be man enough to admit it.

I did offer up Hero Central as a possible route for the game, but that has been shot down. [sigh] Oh well, life goes on.
Well, I think people just have good intentions, plus also more than that, at least based on the experience with my group, if someone can make it 50% or even 1/3rd of the time they don't want to drop out, they want to play when they can. I'm in a similar boat, as my business travel and projects are not so predictable and do frequently knock out the slots we have to play. Now that makes it difficult, but I think it's (at least for us) reasonable or has to be reasonable as we do want to play when we can. It does mean that something like 1/3rd of the games get cancelled or at best posponed sadly.

Now, we only have monthly games - it used to be 2-3 of us would be hosting monthly games but now it's just me. So given we already play with substantial gaps between games we can deal with those being even longer, even if we aren't happy about it. But if you are playing weekly then the gaps would be even worse, and render the kind of style a weekly game is useless, you'd have to really rethink into tighter sessions that are in some ways more self-contained.

Sorry to hear nobody's responded to the email. But please remember that everyone has their head immersed in their own struggles - and times being what they are, I suspect people are even more immersed than ever, worried about jobs, remaining viable where they work, trying to figure out how to protect their kids, etc.. A lack of response happens in our group a lot, too - and usually a friendly kick in the butt, such as marking a follow-up email as priority and saying something about "hey, need to discusst his" works, even then sometimes or instead I'll send an individual note to get someone's attention. People tend to gloss over group notes, I've noticed. Yeah, I know, it sucks, it is sort of rude, but these days between all the emails people get legitimately let alone spam, I have to admit that it's also sort of not rude but rather just the reality of managing too much information, stuff falls through the cracks easily when it isn't in one's face.

I'm just counselling patience and a realistic attitude that people's lives will remain busy and somehow you'll have to gear gaming down by some notch/accept it won't be as frequent, because, I guess, of my own experiences and watching others in my group. It seems like whenever someone really has time to dedicate to gaming, they feel like everyone else is being too inattentive - but then that person will get busy and then become less available and we see it's all good intentions all the way around but life has too much going on for us. I've been frustrated as well - then had to travel a bunch and cancel games I wanted to run. Not for lack of desire, but sake of necessity. Then add a wife, competing interests that you also are trying to juggle - its' messy.

Just keep thinking about retirement age when we'll have time! Even if not retired since there won't be any money for us, we'll have to be at least geared down on our jobs and working less (if only because as seniors our companies want to limit liability/hire kids who will work cheaper, we'll lose our better jobs, and be working more mundane ones, or we'll voluntarily do that as we should be able to simplify by that age with kids out of the house and so on).

And here's the great thing about RPGing - it doesn't really cost money, if you don't have money to spend, so even on fixed incomes or crappy jobs, we can "afford" this hobby in our old age and we'll have time!!!

[ercarlson1974]

Just keep thinking about retirement age when we'll have time! Even if not retired since there won't be any money for us, we'll have to be at least geared down on our jobs and working less (if only because as seniors our companies want to limit liability/hire kids who will work cheaper, we'll lose our better jobs, and be working more mundane ones, or we'll voluntarily do that as we should be able to simplify by that age with kids out of the house and so on).

And here's the great thing about RPGing - it doesn't really cost money, if you don't have money to spend, so even on fixed incomes or crappy jobs, we can "afford" this hobby in our old age and we'll have time!!!

In the group's early years (i.e. before the older guys had families), they would meet quite frequently, although I don't know how often because I wasn't in it yet. By the time I joined in 2004, they had scaled back to once per month. We were good about keeping a monthly game, with occasional breaks mainly for holidays. More recently, we have played maybe twice in the past six to nine months. That is where the frustration creeps in, at least for me. We have been scaling back on gaming frequency for some time, and I'm starting to wonder how much more we can scale it back before we just let it go.

That being said...Zorn, you bring up some excellent points. For my part, I will take a deep breath and relax, and hope that things improve. Trust me, you are not the first person to tell me that I need to work on my patience, and I take it in good humor. ;)

Ah, retirement. No longer will people at the nursing home be doing whatever they do now. Instead we will break out our tattered D&D, Hero System, Traveller, or Star Wars (or what have you) books and confounding the nursing home staff with tall tales that stretch well into the night...

[zornwil]

In the group's early years (i.e. before the older guys had families), they would meet quite frequently, although I don't know how often because I wasn't in it yet. By the time I joined in 2004, they had scaled back to once per month. We were good about keeping a monthly game, with occasional breaks mainly for holidays. More recently, we have played maybe twice in the past six to nine months. That is where the frustration creeps in, at least for me. We have been scaling back on gaming frequency for some time, and I'm starting to wonder how much more we can scale it back before we just let it go.

That being said...Zorn, you bring up some excellent points. For my part, I will take a deep breath and relax, and hope that things improve. Trust me, you are not the first person to tell me that I need to work on my patience, and I take it in good humor. ;)

Ah, retirement. No longer will people at the nursing home be doing whatever they do now. Instead we will break out our tattered D&D, Hero System, Traveller, or Star Wars (or what have you) books and confounding the nursing home staff with tall tales that stretch well into the night...
Thanks. I should add, one member of my group has pushed (in a nice way) to get a couple new players. It's a good idea - I'm just not good at doing that and very hesitant about unknown people, but it is a good idea.

Whatever the case, certainly the best of luck.

[Ian Mackinder]

Thanks. I should add, one member of my group has pushed (in a nice way) to get a couple new players. It's a good idea - I'm just not good at doing that and very hesitant about unknown people, but it is a good idea.

Whatever the case, certainly the best of luck.

This is one possible avenue for new players - http://nearbygamers.com

No guarantees, naturally, but one never knows.