Phone back tracter

[JmOz]

Basicaly a small device that you clip onto the phone while talking on it, then it traces back and gives you an address of where the phone on the other side is...

I ffigure it is a detect of some nature, but what modifiers/adders is the question

[ghost-angel]

It's just called a trace.

You actually need to do it at the Phone Companies switch, but that's a Real World Technicality.

Detect: Originating Number Location; 3pt Detect in the Radio Sense Group should do it.

[Vulcan]

Always remember the dramtic "gotta keep the guy on the line while the cops trace the call" concept is bogus. The phone company by definition knows where the call is going as soon as it's dialed. Or where it's coming from, for that matter. And with the right legal documentation they will share it with the cops.

Of course, for PC's it may not be that easy to get the information from the phone company. And cell phones are a whole 'nother matter. Generally the best you can do it figure out which 'cell' is relaying the call - unless you have radio direction-finding equipment at all the local 'cells'.

On the other hand, this is a game with a rather tenuous grip on reality...

For most purposes Ghost-Angel's idea should work just fine. Although I might add discriminitory on it just to be safe.

[ghost-angel]

Cell phones work on the exact same DNIS premise as POTS, and have the added bonus of tracking the cellular device itself.

If you are within range of 3 cell towers or more you can be instantly triangulated within a few meters of your location. The phone company, with the proper warrants, track that in real time. They do not like to however.

They also do not like to track POTS in real time either because it means accessing the switch 'live' instead of just looking up the call records database afterwards.

One of the real reasons to 'keep them on the phone' when initiating a trace is so that they are stationary (in the case of POTS more than Cell) while you send a squad over. And indeed in the days of mechanical switches you did not have the instant trace capability - so if this is a historical game (say pre Ma Bell breakup) then that trick is wholly real. The phone company in that case needs to physically trace which switchboards are activated for that call. It's not that hard, but it does take more than a second.

What is difficult to do is track TOLL, those have no trace capability. They do not log where the call came from unless you want to go through reams of logs - which the phone company will not do nor will they hand it over to you easily. Mostly because TOLL are always RCF (er, forwarded) to a local line (either POTS or Circuit).

POTS = Plain Old Telephone Service
TOLL = Toll Free Number
RCF = Remote Call Forward

This has been your public service announcement of "more than you really needed to know about phone systems"

....The Access Perk could also work to gain access to the Telephony Records after the fact.

[Vulcan]

...I didn't know any of that.

Thanks for the info! :thumbup:

[Beast]

some cell phones have GPS in them if they do finding them is even easier so long as there is some sky for them to see
and that gets logged in to the carriers system

[ghost-angel]

...I didn't know any of that.

Thanks for the info! :thumbup:

I do telephony for a living. :)

[Steve Long]

Now we see why I consulted with g-a for various bits and pieces of information for The Ultimate Skill. ;)

[JmOz]

Now we see why I consulted with g-a for various bits and pieces of information for The Ultimate Skill. ;)

So Steve, you want to chime in on the build?

[Sean Waters]

The problem with a simple detect is that the address you are detecting is unlikely to be nearby, but the chance of detecting the address should be pretty much independed to distance. I think, at very least, you would need plenty of telescopic, or range reduction or whatever.

Now arguably you are getting the information from teh signal (I have no idea) which is int he handset, and so at minimal range.

Not buying that. When you see something you are detecting the light in your eye. You still need to apply range penalties tot eh thing you are detecting - that's the way the game works, even if it isn't how real life works.

Looking at the interesting info GA provided, and, indeed, Steve's response, probably the better bet would be a systems operation skill roll for communication systems that requires the appropriate hardware, for a realistic approach.

Of the detect with loads of range bonuses on your PER roll for the handset doohickey, if you insist on buying it (or your GM insists you do).

[ghost-angel]

For a more realistic style game (Cyberpunk, Dark Champions, Spy, etc) I would do this:

Perk: Access, Phone Records (1-2pts)

Two things are going on to get the source address of an incoming call.
1) simple Caller ID
2) matching the incoming number on the CallerID to the Phone Records to get the Source Address.

The proper type of social engineering could actually get this information out of a phone company rep (except Qwest, they are incapable of providing any useful information, even when they have it). All you really need to do is convince them you're trying to fix a billing records discrepancy issue regarding where the line is going and where it's being billed to and you're the actual number owner.

To get around Caller ID block you will need to get into the phone companies system itself. An appropriate Hacking, Phreaking or SysOp Skill Roll (depending on how detailed out campaign is). Or last ditch effort simple Break&Enter into a Telco Facility will get that done.

In a more fantastic campaign, or one that really doesn't need that kind of technical detail - a simple Detect will indeed do the trick. The closest Telco Central Office (not switch box) will contain all these records - you don't actually need to detect all the way to the source, just the closest point that holds the information.

Mind Scan; Machine Class could also do the trick quite nicely.

[JmOz]

For a more realistic style game (Cyberpunk, Dark Champions, Spy, etc) I would do this:

Perk: Access, Phone Records (1-2pts)

Two things are going on to get the source address of an incoming call.
1) simple Caller ID
2) matching the incoming number on the CallerID to the Phone Records to get the Source Address.

The proper type of social engineering could actually get this information out of a phone company rep (except Qwest, they are incapable of providing any useful information, even when they have it). All you really need to do is convince them you're trying to fix a billing records discrepancy issue regarding where the line is going and where it's being billed to and you're the actual number owner.

To get around Caller ID block you will need to get into the phone companies system itself. An appropriate Hacking, Phreaking or SysOp Skill Roll (depending on how detailed out campaign is). Or last ditch effort simple Break&Enter into a Telco Facility will get that done.

In a more fantastic campaign, or one that really doesn't need that kind of technical detail - a simple Detect will indeed do the trick. The closest Telco Central Office (not switch box) will contain all these records - you don't actually need to detect all the way to the source, just the closest point that holds the information.

Mind Scan; Machine Class could also do the trick quite nicely.

MIND SCAN CLASS OF MIND IS GENIUS...my thanks, my thanks, my thanks...

For those who do not know what htis has been about, it is for a pet project of building adapting the gadgets from Batman: TAS, this device was used once by Robin in an episode, thanks again all

[JmOz]

OK, here is the current build

Phone Tracer: Mind Scan 3d6 (Machine class of minds), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0), Cumulative (72 points; +1) (30 Active Points); Character Cannot Attack Through Link (-1 1/2), Limited Class Of Minds Telephones (-1), OAF (-1), Requires +20 result, only to locate address the phone is at (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)

Active points 30, real cost 5

[ghost-angel]

I'm keeping that. :D

[JmOz]

I'm keeping that. :D

If I am interpreting you right (Kind of tired right now), thank you, I am glad you like the build

[ghost-angel]

you indeed are interpreting me correctly. It is a good build.

[Eric, Omnirex]

"Keep 'em talking" was true in 50's when it became movie trope.

Weird sort of Mind Scan.

Dang, you guy already got all I had to say. :(

[Sean Waters]

I KNOW I'm a party pooper, so feel free to ignore me, but unless addresses, or telephone systems, have minds (and by that I mean an EGO characteristic) then mind scan won't work without handwaving.

The build looks like it can work mechanically if you make up a number for the telephone system and call it an EGO and not be a problem in practice, so go for it, but I'm just saying. In fact we get this sort of thing coming up so often that 6th really should address it.

[ghost-angel]

If you assume that the Telephony System is built with the AI rules and an EGO of 0 it works perfectly.

[Sean Waters]

If you assume that the Telephony System is built with the AI rules and an EGO of 0 it works perfectly.

My problem is that it tends to make machines just too easy (and cheap) to manipulate with powers. 1d6 machine telepathy allows you to listen in to people's telephone conversations within line of sight. 1d6 of mind control allows you to change the traffic lights, switch off computers, whatever you like really.

If we are to make such assumptions then I would think that an 'average' machine should have a notional EGO of either 8 or 10, just like a normal human, and particularly complex machines - and I'd probably be including the telephone system here - should have significantly higher ones. Moreover we need to think carefully about what levels of effect we need for various tasks.

All of this is irrelevant if it is a one off and is unlikely to have much campaign impact, but if it is a bargain, you'll find a lot of people buying in.

[JmOz]

Actualy...there are rules for this in regards to computers, you base it on INT, so you have to decide what the phone company computer has for INT, I would say somewhere between 8-30 depending on what phone network it is

[Sean Waters]

Actualy...there are rules for this in regards to computers, you base it on INT, so you have to decide what the phone company computer has for INT, I would say somewhere between 8-30 depending on what phone network it is

Then we can build call scramblers as Mental Defence or Invisibility to Mind Scan and, before you know it...

[ghost-angel]

Just because you can build a cheap low powered ability does NOT mean it's easily available in the setting. You have to work within the tropes of the setting you're working under.

[Sean Waters]

Just because you can build a cheap low powered ability does NOT mean it's easily available in the setting. You have to work within the tropes of the setting you're working under.

No, you are right, but then if one player buys it (and it is something that there is any point in having more than one of in a campaign) then you are going to run into the problem of several people wanting the same power. Some economists describe this as there being money on the table - and it never stays there long. Basically bargains get bought.

Even though it may not be commonly available in the campaign, it has to be commonly available amongst the PCs, or you wind up playing favourites.

More importantly (from my POV) it is a matter of principle. We should not be putting opportunities to take the piss in front of players. They can not help themselves, poor things. Frankly it is cruel.

[ghost-angel]

Of course, with only a 1d6 Telepathy you're never getting more than surface traffic. :)

[JmOz]

Regarding the point cost: I see it as a ripple effect, how big does this ability ripple through the game, and how often, the bigger and the more common the more points it should cost. The rule book is a guideline, if I see a power like this getting abused the phone companies will buy better antisoftware (5-10 points of MD). The player is welcome to buy a bigger and better version, but then that will cost more points, till I feel the player has spent the right amount of points for the veristility it presents in the campaign.

[ghost-angel]

This whole conversation came to mind today at work as I argued for an hour and a half to put a Trap on a TOLL number. Wow do they hate that.

I kept thinking "Ugh, if only I had Mind Scan. . ."

[Sean Waters]

This whole conversation came to mind today at work as I argued for an hour and a half to put a Trap on a TOLL number. Wow do they hate that.

I kept thinking "Ugh, if only I had Mind Scan. . ."
I knew you were thinking that.



:D

[Eric, Omnirex]

I go for Mind Scan cause it depends on the number of minds you're looking through rather than the area. Makes sense for picking one phone out of them all, how hard depends on how many phones not the square miles.

[Sean Waters]

I go for Mind Scan cause it depends on the number of minds you're looking through rather than the area. Makes sense for picking one phone out of them all, how hard depends on how many phones not the square miles.

You are right that MS has built in 'population' limitations, so it is a good pick but my concern is more the consequences for other mental powers if you allow this, you should allow them too, unless it is just a campaign rule, in which case anything goes.

[Eric, Omnirex]

You are right that MS has built in 'population' limitations, so it is a good pick but my concern is more the consequences for other mental powers if you allow this, you should allow them too, unless it is just a campaign rule, in which case anything goes.

:confused: I lost. "Allow this"/"allow them" what? I don't get it. :confused:

[ghost-angel]

He's talking about the use of Mental Powers (which are based on EGO values) to simulate interacting with technology as a whole.

[Sean Waters]

He's talking about the use of Mental Powers (which are based on EGO values) to simulate interacting with technology as a whole.

Now you're reading my mind. This is just freaky :D

[ghost-angel]

oh yeah... almost forgot since we don't use it at my work:

411.com - for 15$ they tell you what address a phone number is registered to.

[Eric, Omnirex]

He's talking about the use of Mental Powers (which are based on EGO values) to simulate interacting with technology as a whole.

OH! I see!

It's the old "slippery slope" (aka "sloppery thinking") argument. The idea the boss must say no to a good idea in fear he said yes someone would extend the idea to how its not good.

Dumb. All authority is arbitrary, so use it to your advantage. Good ideas get YES, extended to bad idea gets NO.

If the players go "mommymommymommymommy! Billy has a zap gun, why can't I have a killkillkill gun?" the GM should go "because it's a f*&#$*# bad idea." If they'll walk cause they don't get to abuse the game, let 'em. You try an keep 'em, they'll walk over you, over the other players, over the idea of cooperation. Who needs that?

[Sean Waters]

OH! I see!

It's the old "slippery slope" (aka "sloppery thinking") argument. The idea the boss must say no to a good idea in fear he said yes someone would extend the idea to how its not good.

Dumb. All authority is arbitrary, so use it to your advantage. Good ideas get YES, extended to bad idea gets NO.

If the players go "mommymommymommymommy! Billy has a zap gun, why can't I have a killkillkill gun?" the GM should go "because it's a f*&#$*# bad idea." If they'll walk cause they don't get to abuse the game, let 'em. You try an keep 'em, they'll walk over you, over the other players, over the idea of cooperation. Who needs that?

Actually not that dumb.

Hero IS a game built on principles and the principles are what gives it structure. The authority of the GM is derived from the rule set - without that the GM is just telling you a story and letting you chip in.

That carries certain responsibilities in game design and what the GM can and should legitimately allow. Take away the structure and you take away a lot of the point of the game.

I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you can't be arbitrary about it. If you do it then accept the consequences for the rest of the game.

Moreover in a heroic game there is a much easier way. Simply require a systems operation skill roll for communication systems and require that the person making the roll has access to the appropriate technology. You don't have to build anything and you can use the existing rule structure to get exactly what you want. Hero has not, as far as I know, produced a model for the telephone system, so there's really no need to get worked up about how to manipulate it.

Stop swearing at players, treat them all equally and simply apply a practical, functional solution that requires no handwaving and that works within the existing game structure.

[ghost-angel]

To expand on Sean's thoughts...

Before you can properly model anything in the Hero System you have to know where it's going to be applied, to what style of game it is being applied in, and how you want it to affect associated aspects of that game.

Once you get that, you decide What Exactly it is you need the construct to do. And then you find the most appropriate (for the game) method of modeling that particular ability.

The above reasons are why I do not follow the meta rule of "given two equally valid builds, the most expensive is how to go" - because it is both far too subjective and assumes the Rules Set trumps the Game Concept.

There are, as this thread has explored, several methods of modeling the idea of locating the originating address of an incoming call.

Given that this is something that can be done In Real Life, you can go from extremely realistic to extremely fantastic when modeling it. RL simply requires some time, and access to some very specific databases (Skills and/or some form of Access Perk) - or Super Science could in fact create a handy little device to do it as well (Detect and Mindscan are to that come immediately to mind).

For Jmoz's needs he decided the device was Superscience, and that Mindscan best fit the Game Model he was working within.

[JmOz]

To expand on Sean's thoughts...

Before you can properly model anything in the Hero System you have to know where it's going to be applied, to what style of game it is being applied in, and how you want it to affect associated aspects of that game.

Once you get that, you decide What Exactly it is you need the construct to do. And then you find the most appropriate (for the game) method of modeling that particular ability.

The above reasons are why I do not follow the meta rule of "given two equally valid builds, the most expensive is how to go" - because it is both far too subjective and assumes the Rules Set trumps the Game Concept.

There are, as this thread has explored, several methods of modeling the idea of locating the originating address of an incoming call.

Given that this is something that can be done In Real Life, you can go from extremely realistic to extremely fantastic when modeling it. RL simply requires some time, and access to some very specific databases (Skills and/or some form of Access Perk) - or Super Science could in fact create a handy little device to do it as well (Detect and Mindscan are to that come immediately to mind).

For Jmoz's needs he decided the device was Superscience, and that Mindscan best fit the Game Model he was working within.

small (and trivial) point of corection, for my games I discriminate between Cutting edge, bleeding edge, and superscience, this device would qualify as Bleeding Edge...

[ghost-angel]

Indeed you could break it down however you wanted the two major categories of "Can Be Done In Real Life" and "Can't Be Done In Real Life" can help one decide on how they want to model any given ability.

[Eric, Omnirex]

I guess I see it as being from cooperation and story telling. GM devices use the rules how is simplest, and anyone going "that means I can do yadda" is not cooperating and not there for story telling.

Arbitrary to keep the story moving is OK by me and who I prefer play with.

[Eric, Omnirex]

I guess I see it as being from cooperation and story telling. GM devices use the rules how is simplest, and anyone going "that means I can do yadda" is not cooperating and not there for story telling.

Arbitrary to keep the story moving is OK by me and who I prefer play with.