What do you think

[AwesomusPrime]

First off, in my supers campaign I allow my characters to 'level up' (spend character points to improve their character) at any point in time, including in combat. They rarely do this for obvious reasons. I also impose no point cap on them.

So last night, in the climactic final battle, one of my heroes comes up with something I think is pretty unique.

He is made completely of water, and has an EC of various powers to reflect that. So he grapples the boss and floads into his lungs (using a modified desolidification) and asks how drowning works. I'm impressed and tell him, but also tell him that it could take a while. So he says to me, I want to spend my character points to gain a new ability.

Shoot I say to him, what will it be and I'll see if it will be allowed. Since I'm made out of water he says, and have a small amount of environmental control over water, I want an ability that wiill allow me to suck oxygen out of peoples body into myself, but only while I'm in their lungs.

I laughed my butt off, there goes my boss. I gave him a 140 AP END Drain with the 1 pt limitation "Only when in target's lungs".

It took him three drains to get his max end drained from the boss, which made the boss burn Stun for end, and when the boss finally lost consciousness my player just stayed there until his heart stopped. (This particular boss, they had seen the future, was responsible for the complete discttruction of the omniverse).

Anyway, struck me as amusing, now that I type it, it doesn't read as good a story, but there you have it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yet another example of the compelling need for a power that duplicates the effects of suffocation...

[Sean Waters]

A 140 AP End drain?

:nonp:

How much END did that freak HAVE?

Still, good story (if a little morally ambiguous - to say the least - on the suffocation to death; if they have seen him destroy the omniverse but KNOW the future is not certain (if they can kill him it can't be) then there is likely to be a middle ground between murder and oblivion). I think this sort of 'apply the XP when you need it' approach is excellent for superhero games - so long as it doesn;'t slow the action too much.

[Marcus]

For normal drowning, we just used change environment...

[lemming]

A 140 AP End drain?

:nonp:

How much END did that freak HAVE?
Perhaps Power Defense?

[Sean Waters]

Perhaps Power Defense?

Excellent point. Even so....:)

[AwesomusPrime]

He had more than 100 END and more than 300 STUN.

The reason for the 140 AP Drain though was because the player wanted the task done, and he said I have 77 points, how much Drain can I afford with that 1 pt limitation. I said max 140, leaving you 7 points. He said Let's do it then.

Good times were had by all. Also concerning the moral ambiguity, the future version of this guy begged them to kill him. Also time travel ended up being very *****, if you changed the future scars would remain, so they retconned an alien invasion, but like 10% of the damage from the invasion happens anyway without cause and the populous remembers two histories.

Running this game taught me to never allow time travel to be a focus at all.

[Sean Waters]

For normal drowning, we just used change environment...

Change environment does not cause damage unless you buy damage for the power. Similarly it cannot normally drain or remove characteristics (REC). Being able to switch off someone's REC is a massive advantage that would normally cost a lot. In a superheroic game where REC is routinely around 15, you'd beed a 9d6 supress to accomplish the REC loss. That's 45 points, ranged and costs END.

You then have to be able to remove 1 END per turn (and, oddly, that's the hardest part of all of this - there simply is not a mechanic for 'damaging' END - you have to adjust it) then cause 1 STUN/phase when the END is gone then 1 Body/phase when the stun is gone.

Assuming an average 'superhero speed' of 6 that is 6 END/turn on average or a 1 pip drain. 3 points, but you need to add range and constant, so 7.

All of the above (52 points) is limited 'doesn't work if the target doesn't need to breathe'. Say (we're building this for a superhero game) -1/2 - that is fairly common. 34 points.

The Stun and Body is a NND Does Body, with some limitations. We'll make it a 1 pip KA NND Does Body, constant, for 20 points, only does NND Stun when target has no END/Only does Body when target has no END or STUN. Say -1: 10 points.

So the whole thing, costed to affect a reasonably average super character is about 44 points worth. Of course building it to actually affect ANYONE including the 50 REC 12 SPD nasty over there is prohibitively expensive, but if we assume average means it is a bargain sometimes and a burden sometimes, we bury the mechanics and just charge 45 points (we are psychotic about stuff ening in a 5 or a 0) for the ability to stop someone breathing at range, costs END.

Sounds about right.

[CrosshairCollie]

I generally use the power skill to let people buy new powers in mid-combat; -1 penalty per 10 points after advantages and limitations, but before frameworks, so a heavily limited power is easier to suddenly pull off than one that performs perfectly.

[Killer Shrike]

There's already a model in place for "suffocating" people -- mechanically it works as an NND -- it's called "CHOKE".


Just FYI.

[Hugh Neilson]

There's already a model in place for "suffocating" people -- mechanically it works as an NND -- it's called "CHOKE".

It does more damage than suffocation alone does, requires your character have martial arts and is of very limited use at range. I'd like to see the effect added as a power so MA is not the only way to access this, it can be linked to things like Entangle and Force Wall, it can be made Ranged and Area Effect, etc.

Just like an Eye Poke MA maneuver is not the only way to temporarily blind someone.

[Vulcan]

I was about to say 'buy an NND with the same conditions as a Choke Hold,' then it occurred to me why that won't work.

No matter how many times you hit someone with an NND, they never take BODY.

Choke Hold will do 1 BODY per phase if maintained on an unconscious opponent. By current definitions, an NND cannot. You'd need a separate Drain BODY, NND, Does BODY, Triggered (when target goes unconscious). Or a separate suffocation power in the 6E rules. Or GM handwaving.

But a suffocation power would be a FX written as a power, wouldn't it? I'd settle for a definition on how to do it using the existing rules.

[Sean Waters]

Y'see we have a problem right there. Choke doesn't simulate the rules for being unable to breathe. It has no effect on REC, it has no effect on END and, unless you apply the coup de grace rule it is never, ever going to kill you.

We'd be better off ditching the current choke MA mechanic and doing it with a grab, defined as always targeting the throat, no direct damage but prevents you from breathing if you win a STR v STR.

You could do 'powered' suffocation with TK then.

Of course it doesn't solve the problem because it doesn't really address the situation of what happens when you want an attack that does not rely on squeezing the throat i.e. on STR.

Perhaps it is time of an 'airless' adder to change environment.

Of course one of the reasons why we don't do this is because it causes other logical and game problems.

If you had a power that, say, created a vacuum, then it wouldn't just prevent you from breathing, it would stop most fire powers, and prevent most electricity attacks being used at range, and all sorts of other things I have not thought of.

So, what we want is simply a power that triggers the suffocation rules. A suffocation adder to change environment then...or, better yet, a seperate suffocation power.

I'm going for this:

Suffocation
40 character points*
Ranged
Costs END
Constant

If you make a normal ranged attack against the target they cannot breathe whilst you maintain line of ssight and the power. This causes them to suffocate if they are capable of suffocation i.e. if they need to breathe. It is up to the GM to determine, based on sfx, common sense and their special GM powers, whether a particular form of LS counteracts this power. Generally it will be obvious: if the target does not need to breathe this doesn't work. If the target has extended breathing, this works, but they take damage more slowly. The problem comes with other environments. Go, GM!


NB this power would be in addition to the new rule that if you grab someone by the throat and squeeze then they cannot breathe. Actually it is a shame we need a rule like that.



*Arbitrish, but based round the calculation in the post above. Sort of.

[Vulcan]

Y'see we have a problem right there. Choke doesn't simulate the rules for being unable to breathe. It has no effect on REC, it has no effect on END and, unless you apply the coup de grace rule it is never, ever going to kill you.

Quote 5Ep.264, second paragraph under Choke Hold:

"A charcter who is rendered unconscious by a Choke Hold maneuver can be killed by continued application of the Maneuver. After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious, it will do 1 BODY per phase to the target if it is maintained."

Yes, choke can kill. Although why it needs to be a martial maneuver escapes me.

[Killer Shrike]

I was about to say 'buy an NND with the same conditions as a Choke Hold,' then it occurred to me why that won't work.

No matter how many times you hit someone with an NND, they never take BODY.

Choke Hold will do 1 BODY per phase if maintained on an unconscious opponent. By current definitions, an NND cannot. You'd need a separate Drain BODY, NND, Does BODY, Triggered (when target goes unconscious). Or a separate suffocation power in the 6E rules. Or GM handwaving.

But a suffocation power would be a FX written as a power, wouldn't it? I'd settle for a definition on how to do it using the existing rules.
It's really not that complicated.

It's not that Choke Hold does 1 BODY per phase natively; its that Choke Hold references the rules for hold breath and drowning once the target is reduced to 0 STUN and below, which is what does the BODY.

Any effect that prevents someone from breathing would do the same; despite the topic label the "Holding Breath and Drowning" rules are indiscriminant as to cause. This is the mechanic the rules defines for not being able to breath for characters that need to. Of course, in HERO combat time terms its a very slow way to die, but that's not inaccurate -- people generally don't suffocate in a 12 second TURN or less ;)


On the other hand if your intent is simply to KILL and to do so quickly, and you are willing to pay for a power to do it then some variation of a KILLING attack (perhaps with NND does body, perhaps with just lots of dice and partially limited to not affect people with some flavor of LS), with the SFX of "choking" or "drowning" is likely to be more efficient. If you want it to be less persistent then a DRAIN vs BODY is also an option. SUPPRESS vs BODY would be an even better option but is unusable due to the stupid "comes back to live when the Suppress is over" clause explicitly noted for BODY (which makes no sense to me personally). Whichever floats your boat.

To reiterate, there is a built in mechanic for people to die when they cannot breathe that does not cost points to utilize but is circumstance driven and relatively slow to work. However if you just want to kill then its more efficient to go after BODY directly; the means / rationale of how you are killing is just SFX.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's not that Choke Hold does 1 BODY per phase natively; its that Choke Hold references the rules for hold breath and drowning once the target is reduced to 0 STUN and below, which is what does the BODY.

Any effect that prevents someone from breathing would do the same; despite the topic label the "Holding Breath and Drowning" rules are indiscriminant as to cause. This is the mechanic the rules defines for not being able to breath for characters that need to. Of course, in HERO combat time terms its a very slow way to die, but that's not inaccurate -- people generally don't suffocate in a 12 second TURN or less ;)
************************************************** **
To reiterate, there is a built in mechanic for people to die when they cannot breathe that does not cost points to utilize but is circumstance driven and relatively slow to work. However if you just want to kill then its more efficient to go after BODY directly; the means / rationale of how you are killing is just SFX.

There is a built-in mechanic that people who cannot breathe take no STUN damage until they run out of END, get no recoveries while unable to breathe, and lose END while unable to breathe.

Choke Hold does not follow any of these mechanics. Why not? If it results in loss of the ability to breathe, would it not reasonably follow that we would look to the rules of what happens if you are unable to breathe to determine the results?

[Killer Shrike]

There is a built-in mechanic that people who cannot breathe take no STUN damage until they run out of END, get no recoveries while unable to breathe, and lose END while unable to breathe.

Choke Hold does not follow any of these mechanics. Why not? If it results in loss of the ability to breathe, would it not reasonably follow that we would look to the rules of what happens if you are unable to breathe to determine the results?


Actually it does. Go read the rules on it again; Choke Hold directly refers to the suffocating rules and reiterates the important piece of them from the context of combat (the rate at which BODY damage accrues).

A Choke knocks someone out via NND STUN damage if maintained long enough.


EDIT: Of course, on a side note, if the victim is knocked out, its also possible to do a coup de'grace and kill them if you have means, so the point is largely moot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually it does. Go read the rules on it again; Choke Hold directly refers to the suffocating rules and reiterates the important piece of them from the context of combat (the rate at which BODY damage accrues).

A Choke knocks someone out via NND STUN damage if maintained long enough.

EDIT: Of course, on a side note, if the victim is knocked out, its also possible to do a coup de'grace and kill them if you have means, so the point is largely moot.

OK, maybe there's a major change I'm not reading (no book with me). Correct me on where I'm wrong:

- Choke Hold does STUN each phase. Drowning does no STUN as long as you have END left.

- Drowning requires the victim lose 1 END per phase minimum. Does Choke Hold now also have that effect?

- Drowning removes the ability to recover. I assume Choke Hold now also has that effect.

- Once I'm out of END, I drown at 1 STUN per phase. Choke Hold does more than 1 STUN per phase.

Finally, I can't enhance suffocation damage by purchasing damage classes. I can upgrade Choke Hold damage by purchasing damage classes.

With this, and the fact that Choke Hold is available only as a martial maneuver (making it hard to incorporate into, say, an Entangle, Change Environment or Force Wall), I suggest there is a need for an actual "suffocate" power.

And if we're coming up with 40+ points for Suffocate, I further suggest that Choke Hold is substantially underpriced!

[Killer Shrike]

OK, maybe there's a major change I'm not reading (no book with me). Correct me on where I'm wrong:

- Choke Hold does STUN each phase. Drowning does no STUN as long as you have END left.

- Drowning requires the victim lose 1 END per phase minimum. Does Choke Hold now also have that effect?

- Drowning removes the ability to recover. I assume Choke Hold now also has that effect.

- Once I'm out of END, I drown at 1 STUN per phase. Choke Hold does more than 1 STUN per phase.

Finally, I can't enhance suffocation damage by purchasing damage classes. I can upgrade Choke Hold damage by purchasing damage classes.

With this, and the fact that Choke Hold is available only as a martial maneuver (making it hard to incorporate into, say, an Entangle, Change Environment or Force Wall), I suggest there is a need for an actual "suffocate" power.

And if we're coming up with 40+ points for Suffocate, I further suggest that Choke Hold is substantially underpriced!

You're missing the point...Choke knocks you out first, and then you start suffocating. "Finish to start".

As far as the need for a suffocate power, why? If you want to kill just kill. The how of killing is just SFX.

[archermoo]

OK, maybe there's a major change I'm not reading (no book with me). Correct me on where I'm wrong:

- Choke Hold does STUN each phase. Drowning does no STUN as long as you have END left.

- Drowning requires the victim lose 1 END per phase minimum. Does Choke Hold now also have that effect?

- Drowning removes the ability to recover. I assume Choke Hold now also has that effect.

- Once I'm out of END, I drown at 1 STUN per phase. Choke Hold does more than 1 STUN per phase.

Finally, I can't enhance suffocation damage by purchasing damage classes. I can upgrade Choke Hold damage by purchasing damage classes.

With this, and the fact that Choke Hold is available only as a martial maneuver (making it hard to incorporate into, say, an Entangle, Change Environment or Force Wall), I suggest there is a need for an actual "suffocate" power.

And if we're coming up with 40+ points for Suffocate, I further suggest that Choke Hold is substantially underpriced!

It is possible for things to be related without being identical.

[Sean Waters]

Choke Hold (I just looked it up - p399) does not do END damage of any sort. It does NND stun and, once you are KO'd, it does 1 Body per phase if maintained. Presumably from context, that is 1 Body per attacker phase. This is a 'logical freebie' - you don't pay points to be able to kill with this particular NND. I was wrong about not being able to do Body with it in my earlier post, but that is unnecessary anyway, as you could use the coup-de-grace rule anyway on a helpless opponent - p411)

Moreover is does 2d6 NND damage per phase and the damage can be increased with damage classes - which makes no sense at all if what you are doing is suffocating.

The effects of holding someone's had under water and putting them in a choke hold are therefore enormously different.

To be honest, although it is called a choke hold I'd always assumed that what you were doing was cutting off the blood supply by squeezing on the major veins. That will KO and then kill you nice and quick.

Choke hold does not in any useful way emulate the rules for suffocation IMO.

The problem is we have a system mechanic (suffocation) and we are a bit timid about using it when we play the game. If you hold someone's head under water, then you wouldn't worry about using suffocation rules. If you cover someone's mouth and nose, ditto. If you squeeze their airways shut then ditto too IMO, and you could do that physically or with TK.

[archermoo]

The effects of holding someone's had under water and putting them in a choke hold are therefore enormously different.


As the real world results from them are also enormously different I would hope that the game effects would be as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

You're missing the point...Choke knocks you out first, and then you start suffocating. "Finish to start".

As far as the need for a suffocate power, why? If you want to kill just kill. The how of killing is just SFX.

Because it is a rational power effect for a character who can:

- removing the air from an area (Red Tornado and Flash can do this)

- tainting the air in an area (remove oxygen from the air; Aquaman has had to deal with opponents who remove it from water)

- closing the victim's airways (some spells in source material)

- an entangle that blocks the airways (SpiderMan, Trapster, Iceman, a Web spell)

- a Force Wall that is airtight (Sue Storm has beaten the Hulk HOW many times using this?)

The goal is not to kill the target. It is to simulate a character who cuts off the target's supply of air. We currently have no means of permitting a character to cause the environmental effects of having no oxygen to breathe. Yet the ability to do so is not so strange that it should not be allowed for.

As the real world results from them are also enormously different I would hope that the game effects would be as well.

Which says "we don't have a power which emulates the effects of suffocation in the game". That's my point exactly - a choke hold is not simply loss of oxygen.

[Hugh Neilson]

Choke Hold (I just looked it up - p399) does not do END damage of any sort. It does NND stun and, once you are KO'd, it does 1 Body per phase if maintained. Presumably from context, that is 1 Body per attacker phase. This is a 'logical freebie' - you don't pay points to be able to kill with this particular NND. I was wrong about not being able to do Body with it in my earlier post, but that is unnecessary anyway, as you could use the coup-de-grace rule anyway on a helpless opponent - p411)

Moreover is does 2d6 NND damage per phase and the damage can be increased with damage classes - which makes no sense at all if what you are doing is suffocating.

The effects of holding someone's had under water and putting them in a choke hold are therefore enormously different.

To be honest, although it is called a choke hold I'd always assumed that what you were doing was cutting off the blood supply by squeezing on the major veins. That will KO and then kill you nice and quick.

Choke hold does not in any useful way emulate the rules for suffocation IMO.

The problem is we have a system mechanic (suffocation) and we are a bit timid about using it when we play the game. If you hold someone's head under water, then you wouldn't worry about using suffocation rules. If you cover someone's mouth and nose, ditto. If you squeeze their airways shut then ditto too IMO, and you could do that physically or with TK.

I agree 100%. I think the problem comes to costing. On the one hand, this can be hideously effective (no REC, for example) on a large proportion of opponents. On the other hand, it's extremely slow if applied in combat.

But it's an effect the system should be able to emulate.

[Vulcan]

Moreover is does 2d6 NND damage per phase and the damage can be increased with damage classes - which makes no sense at all if what you are doing is suffocating.

But given the FX, there could also be sufficient presssure on the carotid arteries to diminish (or even cut off) blood flow to the brain. That would speed things up considerably.

The effects of holding someone's had under water and putting them in a choke hold are therefore enormously different.

Both in real life and in the game.

To be honest, although it is called a choke hold I'd always assumed that what you were doing was cutting off the blood supply by squeezing on the major veins. That will KO and then kill you nice and quick.

That could be. But the defense is 'not needing to breathe' (among other things).

Choke hold does not in any useful way emulate the rules for suffocation IMO.

Debateable. But I conceed your point as your honest opinion.

The problem is we have a system mechanic (suffocation) and we are a bit timid about using it when we play the game. If you hold someone's head under water, then you wouldn't worry about using suffocation rules. If you cover someone's mouth and nose, ditto. If you squeeze their airways shut then ditto too IMO, and you could do that physically or with TK.

Some advice for GM's about this situation would be nice, I agree with you there. I just don't know that a separate power build is necessarty for this single special effect.

[archermoo]

Some advice for GM's about this situation would be nice, I agree with you there. I just don't know that a separate power build is necessarty for this single special effect.

I could be wrong, but I don't think they are looking for a power build for it. I think they are looking for an entirely separate Power.

[Sean Waters]

:)

You can build the power 'suffocate', but it is big and sprawling and messy, if you want to be able to suffocate anyone and not, for example, people with less than 15 REC (or whatever).

Suffocation is something we see a lot in the comics as a power, and there are plenty of other situations where the ability to suffocate someone (using CO2, for example) is a power we should be able to emulate.

Now if we have a power that 'does' suffocation, whether it be a build or a separate power, or whatever, then it should have the same effect as the system rules for suffocation: no recoveries (as opposed to reducing REC to 0), at least 1 END burn per defender's phase, then 1 Stun, then 1 Body.

At present there is no way to build 'turning off recoveries' other than draining REC to 0 or transforming the target.

At present there is no way to reduce END other than to adjust it, and that does not work in the same way as burning 1 END per phase. For one thing, returning characteristics are independent of recoveries. You can get around this with custom lims bit, like I said, it is messy.

I think we can all agree that the official choke hold is not simply cutting off your oxygen as it works nothing like suffocation.

So, what 'we' are suggesting is that a common effect like suffocation needs an easy option for building it.

Frankly I don't care if it is a build, presented like a talent, a new power, an adder for force wall or just an acknowledgment in the rules that blocking someone's breathing makes them suffocate, and you can do that with a physical attack or with TK, or any combination of the above.

My only contention (and I believe Hugh is coming at this from a similar angle) is that there is not an adequate suffocation ability in the system and we need one. I do think that would be best accomplished with a new power. That seems cleanest to me and, whilst it would almost certainly be a fixed price power, if we all work together on this we might just come up with something that satisfies everyone and enhances the system.

That's got to be worth trying.

[Sean Waters]

As the real world results from them are also enormously different I would hope that the game effects would be as well.

...and had I been arguing that Hero already did suffocation by choke hold, I would be truly chagrined. :D

[Killer Shrike]

Honestly, I think you guys argue just to argue. The rule book gives a direct reference from one rule to the other. Choke Hold has an explicit GOTO the Drowning rules after the target is unconscious.

CHOKE HOLD (page 399)
...
A character rendered unconscious by a Choke Hold can be killed by continued application of the Maneuver. After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained (See HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING, page 424.)

HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING (page 424)
A character who holds his breath does not get to Recover, even on Post-Segment 12. He also expends a minimum of 1 END per Phase. He may lower his SPD to 2 to reduce the amount of END he uses.

A character who runs out of END while not breathing expends STUN as END (see page 425). A character who runs out of STUN then loses BODY, drowning at -1 BODY / Phase.
...


Now, that aside, if you really feel the need for a Custom Power to "suffocate" someone faster as a Power, that is just another form of a KILLING ATTACK. When you suffocate someone you kill them. If you don't want it to cause permanent damage if it stops, then use DRAIN vs BODY so the damage fades back after the effect is turned off. If you want it to work just like a Choke, then use TK with the Choke Hold maneuver. If you want everyone to be able to perform a Choke, then just make it a standard Maneuver. Etc etc and whatever, the bottom line is that the rules already present multiple MECHANICS to accomplish the EFFECT depending on the SFX and flavor you want. You are solving a problem that doesn't exist.

[Sean Waters]

You may be missing the point. I'm just not agreeing that the choke hold does suffocation RULES damage. It might do suffocation damage, that's just sfx, but it is not suffocation according to the rules.

Sure, when you have rendered someone unconscious then you do take suffocation Body damage if you continue the hold but not like the suffocation rules, which would cause an unconscious person to take 2 Body a turn (their speed when unconscious drops, but according to the rules they have to effectively be SPD 2 for damage purposes) AND before they are unconscious nothing like suffocation happens: they get recoveries, no END loss, massively increased stun damage, all damage on attackers phases. Are you seriously telling me that you think that the choke hold and suffocation rules work the same way mechanically, or am I missing your point?

[Sean Waters]

Also, whilst I do enjoy a good argument, that's not the only reason I'm here. I also often present solutions to the proplems I perceive. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes doubtless completely unnecessary.

I've presented a potential costing for suffocation, either as a power build or as a new power/talent. Now I appreciate that there may be those who do not think it necessary to have a new power, but the power build is surely worth commenting on. If nothing else it will be something new to argue about.

[archermoo]

You may be missing the point. I'm just not agreeing that the choke hold does suffocation RULES damage. It might do suffocation damage, that's just sfx, but it is not suffocation according to the rules.

Sure, when you have rendered someone unconscious then you do take suffocation Body damage if you continue the hold but not like the suffocation rules, which would cause an unconscious person to take 2 Body a turn (their speed when unconscious drops, but according to the rules they have to effectively be SPD 2 for damage purposes) AND before they are unconscious nothing like suffocation happens: they get recoveries, no END loss, massively increased stun damage, all damage on attackers phases. Are you seriously telling me that you think that the choke hold and suffocation rules work the same way mechanically, or am I missing your point?

Actually the BODY damage is explicitly suffocation damage according to the rules. I mean KS even went and quoted them and everything. Granted prior to the target losing consciousness the damage is different than suffocation damage. But afterwords that is exactly what it is, and I'm not aware of anyone having claimed that it did suffocation damage prior to that.

[Killer Shrike]

Actually the BODY damage is explicitly suffocation damage according to the rules. I mean KS even went and quoted them and everything. Granted prior to the target losing consciousness the damage is different than suffocation damage. But afterwords that is exactly what it is, and I'm not aware of anyone having claimed that it did suffocation damage prior to that.

Exactly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Honestly, I think you guys argue just to argue. The rule book gives a direct reference from one rule to the other. Choke Hold has an explicit GOTO the Drowning rules after the target is unconscious.

CHOKE HOLD (page 399)
...
A character rendered unconscious by a Choke Hold can be killed by continued application of the Maneuver. After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained (See HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING, page 424.)

HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING (page 424)
A character who holds his breath does not get to Recover, even on Post-Segment 12. He also expends a minimum of 1 END per Phase. He may lower his SPD to 2 to reduce the amount of END he uses.

A character who runs out of END while not breathing expends STUN as END (see page 425). A character who runs out of STUN then loses BODY, drowning at -1 BODY / Phase.
...


Now, that aside, if you really feel the need for a Custom Power to "suffocate" someone faster as a Power, that is just another form of a KILLING ATTACK.

No, we see the need for a power that suffocates someone at PRECISELY THE SAME SPEED the existing rules for cutting off their air supply would result in. A power which prevents the target recovering, requires him to spend at least 1 END per phase, costs him 1 stun per phase if he is out of END, and finally suffocates him at 1 BOD per phase once he has run out of STUN.

You are solving a problem that doesn't exist.

Show me the quick and easy build to add the power I have described to:

- Change Environment (there is no breathable air in the area any more)

- Entangle (the sticky webbing blocks your nose and mouth until it is torn away)

- Force Wall (there is an invisible force bubble surrounding your head - no air can get in)

[Killer Shrike]

No, we see the need for a power that suffocates someone at PRECISELY THE SAME SPEED the existing rules for cutting off their air supply would result in. A power which prevents the target recovering, requires him to spend at least 1 END per phase, costs him 1 stun per phase if he is out of END, and finally suffocates him at 1 BOD per phase once he has run out of STUN.

Choke or TK + Choke does that. See above.


Show me the quick and easy build to add the power I have described to:

- Change Environment (there is no breathable air in the area any more)

- Entangle (the sticky webbing blocks your nose and mouth until it is torn away)

- Force Wall (there is an invisible force bubble surrounding your head - no air can get in)

Oh, the usual approach to combining multiple effects applies. You take one power that does one thing and some other power that does something else and you jam them together into a compound power. If they can only be used together, you even get to apply Linked for a small point savings.

[Hugh Neilson]

Choke or TK + Choke does that. See above.

OK, I must be exceptionally dense on this topic (I know, finally something we can agree on without reservation! ;)).

How do I buy the "cut off his oxygen" ability if I DO NOT have martial arts (so I will not have 10 points in maneuvers, so I cannot buy Choke Hold) and DO NOT want the ability to do NND damage along with it?

If we have a "suffocate" power, I can compound it in with Entangle, CE and/or Force Wall. But we don't have that power.

[Killer Shrike]

OK, I must be exceptionally dense on this topic (I know, finally something we can agree on without reservation! ;)).

How do I buy the "cut off his oxygen" ability if I DO NOT have martial arts (so I will not have 10 points in maneuvers, so I cannot buy Choke Hold) and DO NOT want the ability to do NND damage along with it?

If we have a "suffocate" power, I can compound it in with Entangle, CE and/or Force Wall. But we don't have that power.

The NND damage of Choke is pre-suffocation. Its purpose is to knock the target out. The SFX is that you are forcibly denying them Oxygen to the brain, which does in fact cause people to pass out in reality so the approach isn't off in left field on this.

Once the target is unconscious if you keep choking them they will die in the same way that they will die if they can't breathe due to being underwater or similarly not being able to breathe.

The difference is that in cases where a person isn't able to breathe due to circumstance they still presumably are conscious and have some air in their lungs with which to try to extricate themselves from their situation before dying. However once they fall unconscious the effect is the same.

Fundamentally there are two stages to not being able to breath represented here via two different mechanics -- conscious (no REC, END then STUN loss) followed by unconscious (no STUN left, start taking BODY).

By knocking someone out FIRST and preventing them from breathing, you skip straight to the second stage and they start taking BODY.

If you are trying to replicate this approach, then logically any constant attack that first KO'd a target (with the SFX of preventing them from breathing) and then continued to prevent them from breathing would work in this regard.

If you don't want to use Choke Hold, which is just a maneuver wrapped around a power build, then use an NND power defined the same way instead. The outcome should be the same. It really isn't that complicated, IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Actually the BODY damage is explicitly suffocation damage according to the rules. I mean KS even went and quoted them and everything. Granted prior to the target losing consciousness the damage is different than suffocation damage. But afterwords that is exactly what it is, and I'm not aware of anyone having claimed that it did suffocation damage prior to that.

The way I read...After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained...doesn't suggest, despite the page reference, that damage occurs on the target's phases, but that is almost an irrelevance. Once you've got a target unconscious, killing them is a doddle if that is what you want to do and you can do it much quicker than with the suffocation rules, so what really matters is the ability to suffocate someone BEFORE they are unconscious. Also there's nothing to indicate that someone made unconscious by a choke hold loses their recoveries. I really don't think it is the same at all. You may think otherwise. Like I said, that bit is almost an irrelevance

Now just to be the pedantic so and so you know I am, here's KS's initial contribution, in full, for the sake of awareness:

There's already a model in place for "suffocating" people -- mechanically it works as an NND -- it's called "CHOKE".


Just FYI.

No pre or post distinction in the post, nor in the preceeding posts indicating that was what was important here.

Still, you do accept that choke does not do 'suffocation damage' prior to unconsciousness, so we are still left with nothing in the system, other than a scratch build (see above several posts) to do 'suffocation' with.

Mechanically, choke is a poor 'general suffocation ability' anyway. It requires a martial arts package, for one, which may well be utterly inappropriate for the character. It could be bent into working shape (perhaps) for the application of force to the throat by more arbitrary and jarring arbitrary rule additions, but what of simply removing the air from around the target? It doesn't do that well at all - it doesn't matter how strong you are if there is nothing to breathe.

So. We agree choke is not a useful way to do suffocation, at least whilst the target is conscious.

That means we need a 'suffocation ability', be it a scratch build, a new power, an adder for existing powers or a talent-like build. Or we need to assume that we have found something Hero can't do, and does not matter enough to emulate.

That is what we are discussing.

[Sean Waters]

The NND damage of Choke is pre-suffocation. Its purpose is to knock the target out. The SFX is that you are forcibly denying them Oxygen to the brain, which does in fact cause people to pass out in reality so the approach isn't off in left field on this.

Once the target is unconscious if you keep choking them they will die in the same way that they will die if they can't breathe due to being underwater or similarly not being able to breathe.

The difference is that in cases where a person isn't able to breathe due to circumstance they still presumably are conscious and have some air in their lungs with which to try to extricate themselves from their situation before dying. However once they fall unconscious the effect is the same.

Fundamentally there are two stages to not being able to breath represented here via two different mechanics -- conscious (no REC, END then STUN loss) followed by unconscious (no STUN left, start taking BODY).

By knocking someone out FIRST and preventing them from breathing, you skip straight to the second stage and they start taking BODY.

If you are trying to replicate this approach, then logically any constant attack that first KO'd a target (with the SFX of preventing them from breathing) and then continued to prevent them from breathing would work in this regard.

If you don't want to use Choke Hold, which is just a maneuver wrapped around a power build, then use an NND power defined the same way instead. The outcome should be the same. It really isn't that complicated, IMO.

So what you are saying is that Choke Hold doesn't so suffocation damage to a conscious target?

We agree.

Now we need something that does. Care to contribute?

[Killer Shrike]

So what you are saying is that Choke Hold doesn't so suffocation damage to a conscious target?

We agree.

Now we need something that does. Care to contribute?

Hey...real quick...don't ever put words in my mouth, please. Seriously. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself and saying what I mean without your assistance or contrivance. That's a very quick way to go from friendly to not friendly with me and there is no need for this to get ugly unless you want to take it in that direction.

[Sean Waters]

On a completely different tack, I think that a Body drain is probably a better real world fit for oxygen starvation damage: any damage you may have taken is likely to come back quickly once oxygen is restored. Might need a slightly erduced fade rate, maybe 5/minute. It certainly isn't going to take you months to get over it because there is very little tissue damage.

You MAY have permanent brain damage but we can use the disabling rules to model that if you really, really, really feel the need.

[Sean Waters]

Hey...real quick...don't ever put words in my mouth, please. Seriously. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself and saying what I mean without your assistance or contrivance. That's a very quick way to go from friendly to not friendly with me and there is no need for this to get ugly unless you want to take it in that direction.

I won't get into anything personal in public, and I'm sorry if you are upset. I have no desire to go to not friendly.

Do you agree that choke hold does not emulate the suffocation rules for a conscious target? Or should I just walk away from this one? :)

[Killer Shrike]

The way I read...After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained...doesn't suggest, despite the page reference, that damage occurs on the target's phases, but that is almost an irrelevance. Once you've got a target unconscious, killing them is a doddle if that is what you want to do and you can do it much quicker than with the suffocation rules, so what really matters is the ability to suffocate someone BEFORE they are unconscious. Also there's nothing to indicate that someone made unconscious by a choke hold loses their recoveries. I really don't think it is the same at all. You may think otherwise. Like I said, that bit is almost an irrelevance

Now just to be the pedantic so and so you know I am, here's KS's initial contribution, in full, for the sake of awareness:



No pre or post distinction in the post, nor in the preceeding posts indicating that was what was important here.

Still, you do accept that choke does not do 'suffocation damage' prior to unconsciousness, so we are still left with nothing in the system, other than a scratch build (see above several posts) to do 'suffocation' with.

Mechanically, choke is a poor 'general suffocation ability' anyway. It requires a martial arts package, for one, which may well be utterly inappropriate for the character. It could be bent into working shape (perhaps) for the application of force to the throat by more arbitrary and jarring arbitrary rule additions, but what of simply removing the air from around the target? It doesn't do that well at all - it doesn't matter how strong you are if there is nothing to breathe.

So. We agree choke is not a useful way to do suffocation, at least whilst the target is conscious.

That means we need a 'suffocation ability', be it a scratch build, a new power, an adder for existing powers or a talent-like build. Or we need to assume that we have found something Hero can't do, and does not matter enough to emulate.

That is what we are discussing.

Ok, clearly you are misunderstanding what I have posted, what the rules say, and seem to be arguing from a position that is based on some fundamentally different definition of game terms and concepts than what is presented in the book.

At this point, I think you are completely in left field on the topic, but I have entirely lost patience with you after the tone and approach of your last few posts and am no longer going to waste my time engaging in endless back and forth on it with you.

Do as you like, and good luck to you.

[Vulcan]

My opinion is that Choke Hold shouldn't be a martial maneuver at all.

Of course, a GM could handwave suffocation on an appropritate NND build. But a power that stops REC, forces a 1 END per phase loss, and eventually causes the target to pass out is... pretty useless if you ask me. Realistic? Sure. But unless you catch the target low on END and STUN, it'll take too long to be useful in my opinion. The target will likely take you out with conventional attacks long before this becomes a serious problem.

If you aboslutely must have an accurate build, supress REC would likely be the best bet, based on the FX of suffocation. The 1 END/phase will likely be overwhelmed by the END spent trying to stop the power in the first place, and the GM can handwave the BODY once the target is unconscious. That's what the 1st and 2nd "principle for interpreting the HEROS System Rules" is there for.

[Hugh Neilson]

Once the target is unconscious if you keep choking them they will die in the same way that they will die if they can't breathe due to being underwater or similarly not being able to breathe.

Fundamentally there are two stages to not being able to breath represented here via two different mechanics -- conscious (no REC, END then STUN loss) followed by unconscious (no STUN left, start taking BODY).

I want a power that does not start with the target being unconscious. I want a power that replicates first your first stage and then your second stage - a power that provides the effects of being denied what you need to breathe. You keep telling me this is very easy. Where is the build that:

- denies the target the ability to recover
- removes first one END per phase, then one STUN per phase when all END is gone, and finally one BOD per phase when the target is unconscious.

If you are trying to replicate this approach, then logically any constant attack that first KO'd a target (with the SFX of preventing them from breathing) and then continued to prevent them from breathing would work in this regard.

This does not start by removing END, nor does it deny the target the ability to recover. What power would cause a target to lose 1 END (1/2 of one character points) on each of THEIR, not MY, phases? Even that small subcomponent of suffocation of the target has no ready build within our toolbox. Why is it wrong to want that tool in the toolbox, rather than using a chokehold that does STUN too fast while ignoring END and REC?

I'm not just looking for an OUTCOME. I want to get to that outcome in PRECISELY THE SAME WAY as the "lacking air" environmental rules get there. A target who is actually drowning and a target struck by this power should have exactly the same results - no difference at all in what they lose, when they lose it or how fast they lose it.

If this is easy to build, show me. If it's difficult to build, hey, show me that instead. This is not that uncommon an effect in the source material. It should be possible to build it in Hero using a construct no more complex than, say, 5e Regeneration.

[Vulcan]

Like I said, Supress REC. Eventually he runs out of END, then STUN, then the GM handwaves the BODY because of FX and your ability to 'coup de grace' him at any time.

It's not really practical, though. Because while you're supressing his REC he's beating the ever-living crud out of you. Hope you can hold out until he passes out. That 1 END loss is likely negligible amid the END cost of the beat-down he's putting on you in the process. :rolleyes:

But if you really must have it, get the GM to allow you to buy a 1-pip Drain END (max drain around 200 AP or so just to make sure you get all of his END and STUN) linked to the supress END. Then a 1d6 Drain BODY....

So why do we need a specific power for this again? The tools are all there, people just need to use them.

Besides, an E-Blast or HA NND is more practical, because it doesn't depend on waiting for the target to run out of END, and might even stun him. This way you might actually get to finish strangling them before they kill you.

Of course, for an NPC I'd go with the Supress for much the same reasons. Give the hero a little more time to do the hero thing.:thumbup:

[Sean Waters]

In a 'one on one' battle, suffocation alone is not going to win BUT the rules say that you take no recoveries. That could win the battle if you are operating in a team or you stick a continuous suffocation attack on someone and hit them with something else - no recoveries means that the battle is over much quicker and that is what a suffocation attack would be used for tactically. How many times have you, or a villain, got to PS12 in single stun figures and survived the next attack JUST because you took a recovery. That is the power and majesty of this sort of ability, and it is something that Hero does not do well at present - the only way I can think of is a REC adjustment, and that is problematic because you have no idea how much RERC the oppoentns you may face will have so you need to build in a deal of redundancy, at least in superheroic games, OR sacrifice a great deal of realism. That is why a paid for suffocation power seems attractive to me and, I suspect, some others.

[Hugh Neilson]

Like I said, Supress REC. Eventually he runs out of END, then STUN, then the GM handwaves the BODY because of FX and your ability to 'coup de grace' him at any time.

But we don't want to coup de grace him - we want him to lose BOD at the same rate a drowning person does.

It's not really practical, though. Because while you're supressing his REC he's beating the ever-living crud out of you. Hope you can hold out until he passes out. That 1 END loss is likely negligible amid the END cost of the beat-down he's putting on you in the process. :rolleyes:

Gee, maybe that suggests it shouldn't be as expensive, huh?

But if you really must have it, get the GM to allow you to buy a 1-pip Drain END (max drain around 200 AP or so just to make sure you get all of his END and STUN) linked to the supress END. Then a 1d6 Drain BODY....

So why do we need a specific power for this again? The tools are all there, people just need to use them.

So build it and cost it out. I keep hearing how very simple this is, but I am not seeing the build.

You can build a Force Field and Armor out of PD and Damage Resistance quite easly. Let's ditch those powers.

With "reduced reuse time", it's easy to build Regen out of Healing, so everyone quit whining about a separate Regen power.

Why do we have Ego Blast or Based on ECV? Give us an advantage that changes the CV ONLY to be based on Ego, and we can buy an EB, AVLD Mental Defense, Invisible to 2 Sense Groups. LoS Range, Targeted and dodged with Ego. Then we can ditch Ego Blast.

Ditch Transfer- it's a combination of Drain and Aid. Get rid of Suppress - it's limited Drain. Scrap Absorption - it's just Aid with some limitations and a Trigger.

We used to build Resurrection with a Summon structure and some handwaving. Should we scrap the Ressurection adder? Regrow Limbs? Transform.

There are lots of abilities we would never dream of removing from the game that could, if removed, be simulated with other abilities. But we also want a reasonably straightforward approach to build reasonably common abilities.

So let's put in a build, an adder or a power that emulates this fairly common ability in a straightforward manner.

[Vulcan]

Welcome to my 1,000th post!

The problem I see with suffocation as a separate power is that it is a specific special effect. And HEROS is not supposed to be about powers that cover specific special effects.

Here's your suffocation build (I've kept limitations to a minimum to allow the maximum number potential builds; limit it yourself to suit how you're suffocating them, be it with a FF bubble around the head or flooding their lungs with water or anything in between):

Suppress REC, 20d6 (standard effect: 60 points), NND (appropriate Life Support, +1), 200 AP; Real cost 200 pts. *This covers everyone up to 30 REC; this can be adjusted up or down to suit campaign REC levels*
PLUS
Drain END 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4) *so we don't have to spend further actions on it*, AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2) *so we don't miss*, Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), END lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2); Real cost 5 pts.
PLUS
Drain STUN 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), STUN lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2), Target must be out of END (-1/2); Real cost 4 pts.
PLUS
Drain BODY 1d6 (Standard Effect 3 points), Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 32 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), Target must be out of END and STUN (-1); Real Cost 11 pts.
TOTAL
Active Points 252, Real cost 220 pts.

Expensive? HELL YES! To totally supress someone's REC so that they CANNOT take recoveries should be expensive! Not so much because of it's lethality (an equivalent NND would be far more effective), but because it's frustrating and not fun to play against.

[Sean Waters]

:)

Congratulations on your 1000th post.

One of the useful things that has come out of this discussion is that I've realised I'd like to see a power that can damage END, just like we damage STUN now. Perhaps we could have a +0 advantage 'Damage to END' normal attacks? With a (say) +1/4 or +1/2 advantage for 'damages END and STUN.

The reason it would be useful si that END is the only characteristic other than STUN and BODY that recovers using REC.

Now, as you point out, it is expensive to build a 'suffocation' build that covers all the bases, primarily because you have no idea what REC you will be facing. That is one of the things that makes a 'flat rate adder/power' an attraction, although I acknowledge that flat rate powers tend to problems with scaling.

As to the 'power' being a sfx build, I disagree - I think that 'respiratory impediment' is quite a broad category and could cover having your airways blocked, having breathing gasses removed from your environment, choking, chemical action on your system to prevent oxygen uptake, paralysis of the diaphragm, drowning, vaccuum generation. You might consider it a meta sfx, certainly, but it still covers enough ground to be considered a seperate power/adder or at least 'talent build' IMO.

One way to do this, without draining or adjusting REC, is as a straight damage build, at least if you adopt the above 'can damage END' advantage. if the damage done to STUN and END is at least REC+SPD of target thent the effect is as if no recoveries are being taken.

2d6 EB NND (do not need to breathe) Continuous 0 END Does STUN AND END damage (+3) 40 points

Custom limitation DAMAGE cannot exceed 1 end OR stun (only if target has no END) on each of target's phases PLUS target's REC (applied PS12), say -1/2 27 real points

PLUS

1d6 EB NND (do not need to breathe) DOES BODY Continuous 0 END Does STUN AND END damage (+4) 20 points

Custom limitation DAMAGE cannot exceed 1 stun/end on each of target's phases PLUS target's REC (applied PS12), say -1/2 AND
Body damage only applies when target has no END or STUN, and cannot exceed target's SPD/turn -1/2 10 real points

TOTAL 37 points real


So you do (even on standard values) 9 x your SPD as a maximum damage per turn: say you are SPD 4, in a superhero game, that would be 36 damage per turn, which should be enough to cover up to a 12 SPD, 24 REC opponent. If it is a heroic game and you are SPD 2, then you do up to 18 damage per turn, enough to cover a 4 SPD, 14 REC opponent - in either case there is some natural scaling effect, and if you did not feel it was enough you could add another 1d6 to the first part (upping the cost by 20 active/13 real).

The target takes END damage every phase and PS12 takes stun and end equal to their REC (cancelling their REC, in effect). When teh END is gone they take stun and when that is gone too they start taking Body (and their SPD can be assumed to dop to 2 when they fall unconscious, so no need to worry about high SPD opponents not taking enough damage).

Again, worked out this way, the cost comes in to the 40 to 50 range, and the advantage of this build is that it scales across genres - you do need a new advantage, but that is a relatively minor change.

I'd argue that, as a 'new' power or adder, based on possible builds, 40 point is about right. I do appreciate I've been arguing against a pure damage based approach to suffocation, but this is tailored to fit the system rules for suffocation, so I'm pretty happy with it.

Of course this does not cover EVERYTHING that suffocation can do. There may be a sort of voice 'darkness/flash' that runs while the power is in place, but, as that does not fit every sfx (if you change all the air to nitrogen the target cannot breathe but can still talk normally), I leave that for individual builds.

I tell you where this could be useful if you were a 'realism' character builder - anyone with fireball powers could take this and have it as a secondary effect of their fireball - it uses up the oxygen in the target area, and it is only 'naturally' replentished by airflow after (say) a turn.

[Sean Waters]

.....................
Expensive? HELL YES! To totally supress someone's REC so that they CANNOT take recoveries should be expensive! Not so much because of it's lethality (an equivalent NND would be far more effective), but because it's frustrating and not fun to play against.

I'd disagree here based on recent experience. With role playing, not AEA. Suffocation can add a lot of drama. The game we ware playing in at present has a PC who has a suffocation power (built purely as a NND) and recently featured a villain who could do something similar. Much merriment was had as they tried to turn each other blue.

A power like this worried the PCs far more than other powers that were in fact much nastier, and I think that adds considerably to the tension of the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Welcome to my 1,000th post!

The problem I see with suffocation as a separate power is that it is a specific special effect. And HEROS is not supposed to be about powers that cover specific special effects.

You mean like the ability to breathe in an unusual environment, immunity to high heat or the lack of a need to breathe?

The special effect of a suffocation power is the effect that results in no breathable air being available to the target. That could be water (water breathers should be immune), turning the atmosphere to methane (methane breathers should be immune), removing the atmosphere, blocking the target's respiratory organs (perhaps very limited - could only clog gills, for example) or sealing the target's orifices so air cannot be taken in or expelled.

Here's your suffocation build (I've kept limitations to a minimum to allow the maximum number potential builds; limit it yourself to suit how you're suffocating them, be it with a FF bubble around the head or flooding their lungs with water or anything in between):

Well, let's see where we are.

Suppress REC, 20d6 (standard effect: 60 points), NND (appropriate Life Support, +1), 200 AP; Real cost 200 pts. *This covers everyone up to 30 REC; this can be adjusted up or down to suit campaign REC levels*

Hideously expensive, but that's more an issue of Suppress vs REC than this construct particularly. It is exacerbated by the stupid mechanics under which DOWNGRADING from AVLD (Power Defense +1 1/2) to NND doubles the power's cost. Nevertheless, it fails my first acid test - it is far too expensive for its effectiveness, pricing it out of reasonable reach in all but the highest point games - where REC over 30 will be much more likely.

PLUS
Drain END 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4) *so we don't have to spend further actions on it*, AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2) *so we don't miss*, Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), END lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2); Real cost 5 pts.

How does one price draining 1/2 CP?

So, after my REC Suppress hits, the target can evade the END Loss by undertaking a Dive for Cover (to get out of the AoE 1 hex accurate) or Dodge with all levels in DCV. A Triggered attack still needs to hit, so even if that DCV 3 is insignificant (after range modifiers, of course) there is a minimum 1 in 216 chance the "suffocating" target loses no END.

That END loss also occurs on my phases, rather than his, which does not match the environmental rules.

And if he has a 2 SPD (voluntarily lowered, perhaps) he starts getting END back after 5 minutes (25 turns - as little as 50 END).

PLUS
Drain STUN 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), STUN lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2), Target must be out of END (-1/2); Real cost 4 pts.

All the same issues apply as with the END hit. As well, the target could be hit with the END Drain and missed with STUN Drain or vice versa.

PLUSDrain BODY 1d6 (Standard Effect 3 points), Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 32 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), Target must be out of END and STUN (-1); Real Cost 11 pts.

All the same issues as the prior two. As well, a character down 19 BOD doesn't normally recover 2 or 3 every five minutes after the effect ends, so the Drain does not accurately simulate the BOD damage from suffocation.

TOTAL
Active Points 252, Real cost 220 pts.

Expensive? HELL YES! To totally supress someone's REC so that they CANNOT take recoveries should be expensive! Not so much because of it's lethality (an equivalent NND would be far more effective), but because it's frustrating and not fun to play against.

A lot of things are frustrating. Being Mind Controlled or Mental Illusioned is very frustrating. Being KO'd by a lucky shot early in the session is frustrating. Come to think of it, trying to simulate suffocation in Hero is frustrating.

Any build that uses the mechanics to eliminate Recovery will, however, be extremely expensive of necessity. Given the relative ineffectiveness of the suffocation effect, should it be that expensive? For the same 220 real points, I could purchase an 11d6 Drain that Drains REC, STUN, END and BOD simultaneously. Rather than removing all your REC, and 5 END (assuming a 5 SPD) in a turn, I can average 154 END, 77 STUN, 38.5 REc and 38.5 BOD, assuming I only hit twice in five shots. Which would be MORE frustrating to play against?

One of the useful things that has come out of this discussion is that I've realised I'd like to see a power that can damage END, just like we damage STUN now. Perhaps we could have a +0 advantage 'Damage to END' normal attacks?

We have Adjustment powers to simulate it, of course, but I don't see a compelling reason we couldn't have such a construct. In fact, what if we expanded it further? Attack powers affect STUN by default, but what if they instead could affect whatever characteristic or power you selected, under the following parameters:

- the damage to END is 1:1. The damage to all other abilities is based on their CP cost. So a 12d6 EB vs SPD would roll an average of 42, maybe offset by 22 Defenses, so the target loses 2 SPD (20 character points)

- the damage recovers using REC (in CP for items other than END and STUN), even if the ability in question does not normally recover using REC.

- As a +0 advantage (or maybe higher), the power can recover 5 CP per PS 12, regardless of whether the target is otherwise entitled to recover, and in addition to any normal recovery. This can be stepped up as is currently the case for adjustments.

- the existing ADJ power advantages for damaging more than one thing would also apply.

This would eliminate Drain. We could add advantages or limitations to replace the rest of the adjustment powers. No more Power Defense. You want your attack to have a non-standard defense, you can make it NND or AVLD. We'd need to deal with Transform somehow, but it could be very similar.

Now, as you point out, it is expensive to build a 'suffocation' build that covers all the bases, primarily because you have no idea what REC you will be facing. That is one of the things that makes a 'flat rate adder/power' an attraction, although I acknowledge that flat rate powers tend to problems with scaling.

As to the 'power' being a sfx build, I disagree - I think that 'respiratory impediment' is quite a broad category and could cover having your airways blocked, having breathing gasses removed from your environment, choking, chemical action on your system to prevent oxygen uptake, paralysis of the diaphragm, drowning, vaccuum generation. You might consider it a meta sfx, certainly, but it still covers enough ground to be considered a seperate power/adder or at least 'talent build' IMO.

Agreed. Remainder snipped for brevity. I note, however, that constructs that don't involve a separate custom ability make Regeneration and Instant Change comparative models of simplicity.

One interesting approach suggested in the past was to base the cost of cutting off one`s air supply on the cost of either a Drain or a Suppress of the ability to breathe in an unusual medium. I`m removing your ability to breath oxygen. That resulted in a much lower cost. I`d like to see it playtested for effectiveness. I think the power is much weaker if there is a way to stop it, such as breaking the force wall or entangle causing the effect.

[casualplayer]

I'm thinking a Continuous, Controlled END & STUN Suppress, cumulative with a Triggered BODY Drain/Suppress/NND HKA that triggers when target has non-positive values of END and STUN. Probably with some added seasoning like Must maintain Grab. The Continuous will take care of them RECovering during the turn as being "attacked" would cause their REC to fizzle. Impairing the Post-12 REC is a PITA I'm willing to shine on but since we are Suppressing the target's END & STUN characteristics the maximum capacity is diminishing also.

[Sean Waters]

..........................
We have Adjustment powers to simulate it, of course, but I don't see a compelling reason we couldn't have such a construct. In fact, what if we expanded it further? Attack powers affect STUN by default, but what if they instead could affect whatever characteristic or power you selected, under the following parameters:

- the damage to END is 1:1. The damage to all other abilities is based on their CP cost. So a 12d6 EB vs SPD would roll an average of 42, maybe offset by 22 Defenses, so the target loses 2 SPD (20 character points)

- the damage recovers using REC (in CP for items other than END and STUN), even if the ability in question does not normally recover using REC.

- As a +0 advantage (or maybe higher), the power can recover 5 CP per PS 12, regardless of whether the target is otherwise entitled to recover, and in addition to any normal recovery. This can be stepped up as is currently the case for adjustments.

- the existing ADJ power advantages for damaging more than one thing would also apply.

This would eliminate Drain. We could add advantages or limitations to replace the rest of the adjustment powers. No more Power Defense. You want your attack to have a non-standard defense, you can make it NND or AVLD. We'd need to deal with Transform somehow, but it could be very similar.


Funnily enough I've been turning the idea of changing the target characteristic/power as a method of re-doing adjustment powers and simplifying things recently.

Personally I think it could work. Unfortunatly it is difficult to do a meaningful comparison because, whilst I have a good idea of the sort of level of normal and resistant defences I expect to see - and I know that everyone will have normal and, in some games - resistant defences, I've got no real idea how common power defences is and what the 'average' level is.

Still, on the face of it a 12d6 EB would do (against 24 ed, which I consider a decent average) 18 points through defences - slightly less than the 21 points a drain accomplishes (although drain is not ranged, and, like I say, I have no idea what power defence averages) and a huge amount less than supress accomplishes - I can't imagine that average defences go to anything like 24 popints.

I might start a new thread on this. Come to think on it, I did, some time ago, and no one really bit. I might have to present it differently :)



Agreed. Remainder snipped for brevity. I note, however, that constructs that don't involve a separate custom ability make Regeneration and Instant Change comparative models of simplicity.

One interesting approach suggested in the past was to base the cost of cutting off one`s air supply on the cost of either a Drain or a Suppress of the ability to breathe in an unusual medium. I`m removing your ability to breath oxygen. That resulted in a much lower cost. I`d like to see it playtested for effectiveness. I think the power is much weaker if there is a way to stop it, such as breaking the force wall or entangle causing the effect.

The ability to breathe air would therefore be 5 points, presumably, which would make 'suffocation' very cheap even if you applied, for example, UAA to that. Whilst I know suffocation is not a useful combat attack in that it would take forever to take someone down with it (in Hero terms at least), I still maintain that the removed recoveries are worth a great deal in a combat.

I might be overestimating that a little. I doubt most combats exceed 3 full turns at most, which means 3 recoveries and so 3xREC in stun and end, or, for a superhero game, probably it means the loss (non-recovery) of, at most, 45 points, or about the same as 2 to 3 x 12d6 hits and 2 to 3 end suppresses. Actually maybe I'm not underestimating it :)

Whilst the idea is simple and elegant I think it would be too useful at that sort of price.

I acknowledge that adjusting rec is nowhere near as powerful as adjusting other characteristics by a similar amount, so I acknowledge that my costings may be 'top end' but I would not be happy to see the cost dip below the 20-25 point range, or you'd see it everywhere.

Also as the power doesn't scale it becomes almost de-rigeur at higher point totals or in MPs. Of course as point totals go up, so do LS purchases :)

I might also look at the 'breath holding' rules and change them a bit: perhaps if you have time to grab a breath then you do not start feeling the ill effects until after the next PS12, and each level of extended breathing moves that up the time chart, rather than the way we do it at present.

I think that might be a more useful model, and help to mitigate the effects of a suffocation power considerably, whilst still leaving it useful.

Finally we might need a 'NND' effect for this: imagine a character that can turn oxygen to CO2 facing off against someone with a sealed suit - the man inside still needs to breathe so if the air in the tanks is converted he will suffer.

This would distinguish that sort of character from someone who has no need to breathe because they don;t have that sort of metabolic process - perhaps all their energy comes from stored electricity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Funnily enough I've been turning the idea of changing the target characteristic/power as a method of re-doing adjustment powers and simplifying things recently.

Personally I think it could work. Unfortunatly it is difficult to do a meaningful comparison because, whilst I have a good idea of the sort of level of normal and resistant defences I expect to see - and I know that everyone will have normal and, in some games - resistant defences, I've got no real idea how common power defences is and what the 'average' level is.


I'm going to cross post to 6e, L - R, where Power Defense is under discussion.

I think that many of these powers would take NND or AVLD, but then we do get "SFX defense", rather than universal power defense.

The ability to breathe air would therefore be 5 points, presumably, which would make 'suffocation' very cheap even if you applied, for example, UAA to that. Whilst I know suffocation is not a useful combat attack in that it would take forever to take someone down with it (in Hero terms at least), I still maintain that the removed recoveries are worth a great deal in a combat.

I think basing the cost on 10 points would be the lowest end, so we now have a range between 10 and 40. A lot depends on how the ability can be shut down. If it's an Entangle adder, and breaking the entangle lets you catch your breath, that's very different from a "once it hits, it stays up indefinitely and there's nothing you can do about it" ability. Paying 10 points for an Adder also means you don't get a price break for Linked.

I might be overestimating that a little. I doubt most combats exceed 3 full turns at most, which means 3 recoveries and so 3xREC in stun and end, or, for a superhero game, probably it means the loss (non-recovery) of, at most, 45 points, or about the same as 2 to 3 x 12d6 hits and 2 to 3 end suppresses. Actually maybe I'm not underestimating it :)

It needs to be compared with other options for using the points. Let's say instead of adding Suffocate to the Entangle, we instead added a Drain of STUN and END. If the target has a 30 REC, and we can get five drains a turn from that linked power, each one only needs to remove 6 END and 6 STUN to eliminate the benefits of that recovery. That's a pretty typical Supers speed, and a pretty high REC. 40 points would be 1d6 Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2; ended by breaking the entangle), 0 END (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2 - to match the Entangle), Persistent (+1/2 - he can't breathe even if I'm KO'd) Drain. Call NND instead of PowDef a wash. Make 1/3 the points target END and 2/3 target STUN and the power removes 2 END and 2 STUN per attacker's phase.

In PS 12, he recovers 5 CP, say 3 STUN and 4 END. He's down 2 STUN and 6 END. Suffocation would leave him down 5 END. Maybe 40 is in the ballpark, even if it is high end. However, there should be some limitation for the noncumulative nature of this ability - I can't hit you three times with Suffocation and triple your per phase damage, where a Continuous drain would.

I acknowledge that adjusting rec is nowhere near as powerful as adjusting other characteristics by a similar amount, so I acknowledge that my costings may be 'top end' but I would not be happy to see the cost dip below the 20-25 point range, or you'd see it everywhere.

It needs playtesting to assess a reasonable cost. I think I'd be OK with a +10 Adder to Entangle or Force Wall, which comes with "break the base power and suffocation ends". Most such powers tend to be fairly easy to break in a couple of phases. The Change Environment adder, which means you need to take out the character using the power to get air back, should be higher cost, and I think your 20 - 25 point range would be a good starting point for that.

Also as the power doesn't scale it becomes almost de-rigeur at higher point totals or in MPs. Of course as point totals go up, so do LS purchases :)

The Adder is also scaled as the Force Walls and Entangles grow, but so do the breakout powers. In addition, those higher point totals come with higher END and STUN, and more 0 END powers, which will delay the impact of the slow END/STUN loss. But REC is also higher.

I think this also goes to 6e.

[Talon]

If a character takes damage during a Recovery, the Recovery is wasted. Thus, to stop in-Phase Recoveries, you just need to do 1 STUN during each of their Phases. One way to do this would be using the "Differing Modifiers" section of UOO:

7 Energy Blast 1d6 (standard effect: 3 STUN, 1 BODY), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), No Normal Defense (LS: Breathing; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Triggered by target getting a Phase; +1), Does BODY (+1) (22 Active Points); only does BODY to unconscious targets (-1), Spending 1 END avoids STUN damage (-1/2), only does 1 STUN (-1/2) - END=0

14 Apply EB to others: Custom Power, Usable As Attack (+1) - END=1

(Technically someone has the option to take STUN damage rather than END damage, but that seems like a minor issue.)

Add an NND / END Drain that does enough damage to cover the post-12 Recoveries and you are good to go.

For the "what should 6E do?" perspective, see the A-E powers thread.

[Doc Democracy]

Hmmm. I've been watching this thread carefully and I believe I'm on the side of needing someway to invoke the suffocation/drowning rules on purpose.

The problem is that designing it as an attack against characteristics etc ends up being much more expensive than it is probably worth for a combat ability.

I've been trying to think what exactly it is that we are trying to do.

When someone suffocates they have had the context in which they are designed to operate changed in a significant manner.

We have one element in the game that allows us to access the suffocation rules (choke hold) which is pretty much well tied to a specific special effect. However it provides a specialised example which we could try to expand to a general rule.

In the case of choke hold there is a STR v STR contest following an attempt to hit. While the STR v STR is maintained the opponent is suffocating and we can invoke the suffocation effects.

There are other special effects that we might want to invoke the rules - so how do we charge for them?

We look for a contest and a way that the new context might be dispelled. An entangle that suffocates? This is close to the choke hold example. The contest is hitting at a lowered CV (to reflect properly targetting the breathing area) and if successful breathing is restored by breaking the entangle. I would ask for NND style all or nothing defence as well - for example self contained breathing.

Cost - I think a +1/2 advantage would probably cut it - the attack would be more limited in size but still be useful if the initial contest was not successful.

Each suffocation attack would require a bit of an extended discussion to ensure that this was in place but it would be worth it for the privilege of invoking the siffocation rules....


Doc

[casualplayer]

Hmmm. I've been watching this thread carefully and I believe I'm on the side of needing someway to invoke the suffocation/drowning rules on purpose.

Doc

I would say that the problem is that suffocation/drowning rules are made of Handwavium and should be changed to be a power construct, something that can be emulated by the rules. Would be a lot easier to tackle that aspect of the problem rather than a retooling of the Adjustment Powers or something similarly extensive and drastic.

[badger3k]

I would say that the problem is that suffocation/drowning rules are made of Handwavium and should be changed to be a power construct, something that can be emulated by the rules. Would be a lot easier to tackle that aspect of the problem rather than a retooling of the Adjustment Powers or something similarly extensive and drastic.

I was going to say that.

The rules for drowning seem to be something intended to allow players to simulate being trapped underwater (or diving deep, or some other dramatic effect). I don't see this as the same situation where someone is trying to kill you by cutting off your air. One is a lot more forceful than the other. Personally, I see the problem is on the suffocation rules - they should be rewritten (I'd go for stun damage right away, no END cost, no Rec until they get air). The current rules reward those with huge END reserves (in a Fantasy setting, the scrawny mage could hold his breath longer than the brawny fighter, for example).

(I'm going by what I read here - I haven't looked it up myself)

I've never see a problem with the rules as written, and see no need to try to emulate the drowning rules. For most common effects, NND attacks fit the bill, in other cases, maybe a drain or suppress. For the "filling his lungs" - that does seem more like an NND KA; Same thing for forcefully removing the air from around somebody, especially if it happened in one second.

I'm not sure why you'd want to build a power that takes minutes to work. I can see why you'd want to build such a power. Anything that prevents you from taking any recoveries is very powerful, even if it does nothing else. To me that says it should be expensive.

[Trebuchet]

The current rules reward those with huge END reserves (in a Fantasy setting, the scrawny mage could hold his breath longer than the brawny fighter, for example).I'm not sure that follows. I see no logical reason to allow a PC to draw END from an END Reserve for things happening to the PCs own body since END Reserves are designed to supply Powers with sufficient END. Of course, if he bought the appropriate Power that draws upon the END Reserve (such as Life Support) then that's a different issue.

[badger3k]

I'm not sure that follows. I see no logical reason to allow a PC to draw END from an END Reserve for things happening to the PCs own body since END Reserves are designed to supply Powers with sufficient END. Of course, if he bought the appropriate Power that draws upon the END Reserve (such as Life Support) then that's a different issue.

Sorry- I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote it. I meant that if they had a lot of Endurance (in general - I meant "reserve" as in capacity, not the power), then they could hold their breath longer. If the character drains power from their END, as most supers do, then they could hold their breath longer, despite being (more than likely) physically inferior. Most fighters don't need a lot of END - all they need is enough to cover them for several turns. A mage who casts spells may need a high END (just like any other energy projector). This would give the mage an advantage in resisting suffocating and drowning over and above that of the more physically fit fighter.

If the drowning rules used Stun, then you would have a more direct correspondence between physical fitness and the capacity to stay alive underwater (in gas, etc).

Hope that clears that up. Didn't realize it could be taken that way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sorry- I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote it. I meant that if they had a lot of Endurance (in general - I meant "reserve" as in capacity, not the power), then they could hold their breath longer. If the character drains power from their END, as most supers do, then they could hold their breath longer, despite being (more than likely) physically inferior. Most fighters don't need a lot of END - all they need is enough to cover them for several turns. A mage who casts spells may need a high END (just like any other energy projector). This would give the mage an advantage in resisting suffocating and drowning over and above that of the more physically fit fighter.

If the drowning rules used Stun, then you would have a more direct correspondence between physical fitness and the capacity to stay alive underwater (in gas, etc).

END is also what powers long-distance running and other tests of (what other word is there?) endurance. STUN is more like pain tolerance. The Wizard may be a lousy boxer, but a spell system where his spells require END use implies they are more physically taxing than just waving a pointed stick around, so logically such wizards have greater cardiovascular fitness and could reasonably hold their breaths longer.

That's a function of the magic system requiring the wizard to spend large amounts of END to cast spells - we have made use of magic physically taxing, so wizards must be fit to be successful. That low END wizard will sit at home and be exhausted by casting very simple spells. If you want frail, unhealthy wizards to be the norm, spells should typically be reduced or 0 END, and not be so taxing on their stamina.

[Vulcan]

I'm not sure that follows. I see no logical reason to allow a PC to draw END from an END Reserve for things happening to the PCs own body since END Reserves are designed to supply Powers with sufficient END. Of course, if he bought the appropriate Power that draws upon the END Reserve (such as Life Support) then that's a different issue.

Even an exotic END reserve build used to feed a character's STR? Clearly, this is not a common issue, but it should be addressed.

Besides, UMA reccomends just such a build (END Reserve, REC linked to personal REC) to simulate holding your breath for extended periods of time.

[badger3k]

END is also what powers long-distance running and other tests of (what other word is there?) endurance. STUN is more like pain tolerance. The Wizard may be a lousy boxer, but a spell system where his spells require END use implies they are more physically taxing than just waving a pointed stick around, so logically such wizards have greater cardiovascular fitness and could reasonably hold their breaths longer.

That's a function of the magic system requiring the wizard to spend large amounts of END to cast spells - we have made use of magic physically taxing, so wizards must be fit to be successful. That low END wizard will sit at home and be exhausted by casting very simple spells. If you want frail, unhealthy wizards to be the norm, spells should typically be reduced or 0 END, and not be so taxing on their stamina.

As it stands, I really don't think the use of END for drowning doesn't represent anything really well. Your average 8 characteristic person has 16 END and 2 SPD. When drowning, they would be able to hold their breath for 8 turns, or about a minute and a half. A little short, but not too bad. Then they lost 1d6 stun per every 12 seconds after that, so they could be out of stun in as little as 36 seconds, or as much as 192 seconds (approx 3.2 minutes). So far, from 2 minutes to nearly 5 minutes. Then they give up their breath and start drowning, dying in about 48 seconds.

I don't like it. Add in that the highest END people I have seen have been energy projectors. These are the guys with usually lower physical characteristics than the bricks and martial artists. You can argue all you want that throwing fire is more taxing than punching someone, but I don't see it. Yet they will be the ones who can survive the longest. I can see (and have built) bricks that were 0 END on their STR and had less END because of it, yet can fight all day (especially if they have a higher REC), but the scrawny guy shooting flames can hold his breath longer? Ok, granted his stun and body will be left, but that just means he takes longer to die. Not exactly the same thing. You can say that the STUN part is the character blacking out from lack of oxygen, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

(pre-edit - the projector could run a bit more due to his END, but thanks to a lot lower REC, he had no staying power. The brick could outlast him every time - and that assumes he pays END for running).

I can see what you're saying, but the way the rules are written...I don't care for them. I'm not sure what would be better, though. I don't see any need to simulate that odd mechanic in other game situations either. But, as we say, YMMV.

[badger3k]

Even an exotic END reserve build used to feed a character's STR? Clearly, this is not a common issue, but it should be addressed.

Besides, UMA reccomends just such a build (END Reserve, REC linked to personal REC) to simulate holding your breath for extended periods of time.

If you have an END reserve for this purpose, and had a REC not linked to personal REC, would that allow you to take a recovery despite the rules? I wonder if this could make a low-grade oxygen extractor or filter mask - it works, but slowly. Anything more would be life support, of course.

[Hugh Neilson]

As it stands, I really don't think the use of END for drowning doesn't represent anything really well. Your average 8 characteristic person has 16 END and 2 SPD. When drowning, they would be able to hold their breath for 8 turns, or about a minute and a half. A little short, but not too bad. Then they lost 1d6 stun per every 12 seconds after that, so they could be out of stun in as little as 36 seconds, or as much as 192 seconds (approx 3.2 minutes). So far, from 2 minutes to nearly 5 minutes. Then they give up their breath and start drowning, dying in about 48 seconds.

You assume they don't panic, just remain calm holding their breath.

I don't like it. Add in that the highest END people I have seen have been energy projectors. These are the guys with usually lower physical characteristics than the bricks and martial artists. You can argue all you want that throwing fire is more taxing than punching someone, but I don't see it.

If they are spending more END, such that they need that higher END, then throwing fire seems to be more taxing than punching someone. I typically see Energy Projectors with less END, but they buy Reduced End on a lot of their powers. Of course, if you have a had AP limit, they'll probably take less reduced END and more END to power their attacks.

To summarize: if EP's spend the most END, their powers ARE more physically taxing, and they have greater reserves of END before they need to stop and catch their breath. That being the case, they WILL logically last longer in an anaerobic environment than someone who recovers more quickly - he is denied that recovery due to the lack of oxygen.

Yet they will be the ones who can survive the longest. I can see (and have built) bricks that were 0 END on their STR and had less END because of it

They have less END because you chose not to buy them END, not because they have 0 END on their STR. Maybe you should buy your energy projectors reduced END and less END too.

yet can fight all day (especially if they have a higher REC), but the scrawny guy shooting flames can hold his breath longer? Ok, granted his stun and body will be left, but that just means he takes longer to die. Not exactly the same thing. You can say that the STUN part is the character blacking out from lack of oxygen, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

:confused: Running out of STUN is blacking out, isn't it?

If this doesn't sit well with you, I suggest it is because you are building Bricks who quickly become exhausted and Energy Projectors who do not. If you strip them both of their powers and make them run at top speed, 6" Running, Pushing their running all the way so they spend 12 END per phase, and let's call that 48 END per turn, who will be exhausted first?

Does it sit well with you that the Brick is never tired - he has 40 END and 20 REC, for example, so after collapsing from exhaustion, he's up and running again in a few seconds? That seems no more accurate. I think you're focusing on a very micro issue, and I suggest the problem sits more with a lack of verisimilitude in the END purchased for the Brick and the EP, than with any flaw in the drowning rules.

(pre-edit - the projector could run a bit more due to his END, but thanks to a lot lower REC, he had no staying power. The brick could outlast him every time - and that assumes he pays END for running).

There we have it. Recovery requires oxygen. The Brick is a superior aerobic performer, but the EP is a superior anaerobic performer. Perhaps greater verisimilitude would be gained by requiring all characters to have a more consistent ratio of recovery to END.

[badger3k]

You assume they don't panic, just remain calm holding their breath.

Nope - I assumed that that is reflected in the variable nature of the die roll. Of course, if you mean they are not doing anything that requires END, then yeah. Doesn't mean they are not panicking, since I've seen people freeze in fear as well as run around crazily.

If they are spending more END, such that they need that higher END, then throwing fire seems to be more taxing than punching someone. I typically see Energy Projectors with less END, but they buy Reduced End on a lot of their powers. Of course, if you have a had AP limit, they'll probably take less reduced END and more END to power their attacks.

To summarize: if EP's spend the most END, their powers ARE more physically taxing, and they have greater reserves of END before they need to stop and catch their breath. That being the case, they WILL logically last longer in an anaerobic environment than someone who recovers more quickly - he is denied that recovery due to the lack of oxygen.[/QUOTE]

Or they are more fit and can take in more oxygen while they are working, and don't need to stop and catch their breath in big gasps. I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with the mechanic for it.


They have less END because you chose not to buy them END, not because they have 0 END on their STR. Maybe you should buy your energy projectors reduced END and less END too.

No, they have more efficient physical processes that power their muscles, enabling them to strike at full strength continuously. You do see how that works, right?


:confused: Running out of STUN is blacking out, isn't it?

Isn't that what I said?

If this doesn't sit well with you, I suggest it is because you are building Bricks who quickly become exhausted and Energy Projectors who do not. If you strip them both of their powers and make them run at top speed, 6" Running, Pushing their running all the way so they spend 12 END per phase, and let's call that 48 END per turn, who will be exhausted first?

But the Brick doesn't get exhausted. That's the point. With 0 END Str, at most (assuming 6" running and 4 SPD), they could spend 4 END per turn. If they have 40 END and 20 REC, they will not run out of END. Give them 20 and in normal circumstances they won't run out of END. They can keep it up all day and night, if need be. But, according to you, this is the wrong way to go about it?

Does it sit well with you that the Brick is never tired - he has 40 END and 20 REC, for example, so after collapsing from exhaustion, he's up and running again in a few seconds? That seems no more accurate. I think you're focusing on a very micro issue, and I suggest the problem sits more with a lack of verisimilitude in the END purchased for the Brick and the EP, than with any flaw in the drowning rules.

But the Brick would not be exhausted. That's the point. Also, do you seriously think that a character taking a recovery collapses in exhaustion? Hell, with a 4 speed, that's a 3-second break. He'd be fine before he was halfway down. Sorry. Doesn't sit well indeed. The fact is that the drowning rules were meant to try to simulate normal humans, and when you get into different situations (as you will with supers and other powered characters), they break apart. It seems like you hate that I disagree with your pet project, but sorry, I do.


There we have it. Recovery requires oxygen. The Brick is a superior aerobic performer, but the EP is a superior anaerobic performer. Perhaps greater verisimilitude would be gained by requiring all characters to have a more consistent ratio of recovery to END.

Or that the drowning rules could be changed to accommodate a larger variety of situations, or else we have to accept that there will be situations where the rules break down because that's the limitation inherent in the rules. Adding a power to simulate this game effect seems to me a waste of time. Sorry it bothers you so much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Nope - I assumed that that is reflected in the variable nature of the die roll. Of course, if you mean they are not doing anything that requires END, then yeah. Doesn't mean they are not panicking, since I've seen people freeze in fear as well as run around crazily.

As I understand it, people tend to exert energy when drowning, not freeze up.

Or they are more fit and can take in more oxygen while they are working, and don't need to stop and catch their breath in big gasps. I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with the mechanic for it.

I don't see PS 12 as "stopping to catch their breath in big gasps". Taking in more oxygen seems to me to be a function of recovery, not of endurance. Take away the oxygen and the recovery stops. A sprinter would probably buy a bit of extra END to get that big push for a short period. A marathoner would spend his points on REC to last the long haul.

No, they have more efficient physical processes that power their muscles, enabling them to strike at full strength continuously. You do see how that works, right?

Yup. And those more efficient muscles mean that use of those physical processes isn't giving them a real cardio workout, so they don't develop higher END or REC, so they have no enhanced ability to maintain consciousness when deprived of oxygen.

But the Brick doesn't get exhausted. That's the point. With 0 END Str, at most (assuming 6" running and 4 SPD), they could spend 4 END per turn. If they have 40 END and 20 REC, they will not run out of END. Give them 20 and in normal circumstances they won't run out of END. They can keep it up all day and night, if need be. But, according to you, this is the wrong way to go about it?

I believe I mentioned "running full out", which I defined as "pushing your running". That's not 1 END per phase, it's 12. He's out of END before he completes the first turn. And he took 4d6 STUN. He recovers 20 END and gets all his stun back in PS 12. With 20 END, he takes 14d6 STUN in the next turn to keep running. That's not all coming back in the second PS 12. [He sure is in a hurry!] Eventually, he runs out of Stun and collapses in exhaustion.

I note that a normal human moving at 6" running will also never run out of END. With his 8's across the board, he has 16 END and a 4 REC. His 2 SPD will mean he spends 2 END per turn. He could have a 4 SPD and still maintain perpetual motion. I can't run at top speed for a minute, much less an hour. Of course, unless we're playing Track & Field Hero, this particular failing isn't that big a deal.

But the Brick would not be exhausted. That's the point. Also, do you seriously think that a character taking a recovery collapses in exhaustion? Hell, with a 4 speed, that's a 3-second break. He'd be fine before he was halfway down.

They also
don't need to stop and catch their breath in big gasps

But that 3 second break is a halt to the Brick's running. He can't spend any END, even the one it would take to move, if he wants to take that recovery. "run/stop/run/stop" is very different from a full out run.

Or that the drowning rules could be changed to accommodate a larger variety of situations, or else we have to accept that there will be situations where the rules break down because that's the limitation inherent in the rules. Adding a power to simulate this game effect seems to me a waste of time. Sorry it bothers you so much.

There are two issues here. The first is "should the drowning rules be changed?". I'm OK with them as they are, but if you have a better approach, I'm open to hearing it. It needs to be cinematic and playable, of course.

The second is "should there be a mechanical construct in the game to allow a character to create the effect of denial of oxygen to his target, thus triggering the drowning rules?"

My answer there is "absolutely - we see this in the source material, and it should be possible, practical and not overly cumbersome to build the same ability in the game".

You are unhappy this might effectively take down a Brick. The first use of this power that comes to mind from the source material is the numerous times Sue Storm has taken out the Hulk by blocking his air with a force bubble, so "this takes down Bricks" seems like a feature, not a flaw, to me.

[badger3k]

As I understand it, people tend to exert energy when drowning, not freeze up.

Depends on the situation. Surely you've seen the mythbusters do the special on getting out of a flooded car. All you have to do is sit calmly and wait until it was full, then exit with no problem. So how much energy expended is dependent on the situation. When I remember drowning, I wasn't doing very much at the time, so my energy loss should have been minimal.


I don't see PS 12 as "stopping to catch their breath in big gasps". Taking in more oxygen seems to me to be a function of recovery, not of endurance. Take away the oxygen and the recovery stops. A sprinter would probably buy a bit of extra END to get that big push for a short period. A marathoner would spend his points on REC to last the long haul.

Yup. And those more efficient muscles mean that use of those physical processes isn't giving them a real cardio workout, so they don't develop higher END or REC, so they have no enhanced ability to maintain consciousness when deprived of oxygen.

The problem I see is that two different characters can perform the exact same actions, use the same amount of energy, but one is a workout and one isn't. A Brick whose body uses the energy more efficiently is getting the most out of his oxygen than the other guy. If one uses 100% while another uses 10%, unless Mr 10% has lungs 10x the size of MR 100%, he's not going to last longer.


I believe I mentioned "running full out", which I defined as "pushing your running". That's not 1 END per phase, it's 12. He's out of END before he completes the first turn. And he took 4d6 STUN. He recovers 20 END and gets all his stun back in PS 12. With 20 END, he takes 14d6 STUN in the next turn to keep running. That's not all coming back in the second PS 12. [He sure is in a hurry!] Eventually, he runs out of Stun and collapses in exhaustion.

Right, and I say that's meaningless. More efficient is more efficient is more efficient. It should carry through the whole system across. If I bought Mr Brick to simulate this with 0 END on his running, it should carry through. If he expends 0 END he is using 100% of his energy intake as muscle power. More efficiency translates as more efficiency. Why is that hard to understand?

I note that a normal human moving at 6" running will also never run out of END. With his 8's across the board, he has 16 END and a 4 REC. His 2 SPD will mean he spends 2 END per turn. He could have a 4 SPD and still maintain perpetual motion. I can't run at top speed for a minute, much less an hour. Of course, unless we're playing Track & Field Hero, this particular failing isn't that big a deal.[/QOUTE]

Maybe we need to change the REC rules to more effectively work with normal humans. Unless we're playing Aquaman Hero, drowning rules aren't really needed either, at least not in about 28 years of playing that I've seen. Do we really need a power that will take someone 4 or 5 minutes to affect? most encounters are over long before that.

[QUOTE]
They also


But that 3 second break is a halt to the Brick's running. He can't spend any END, even the one it would take to move, if he wants to take that recovery. "run/stop/run/stop" is very different from a full out run.
That assumes there's a break. At 0 END, there will be no break. I agree that using the 1 END brick there would be, but I should bave stayed with the 0 END on running to keep it consistent.


There are two issues here. The first is "should the drowning rules be changed?". I'm OK with them as they are, but if you have a better approach, I'm open to hearing it. It needs to be cinematic and playable, of course.
Currently, I have no idea, but as I said, I never used the rules, nor do I see the need in any sense, so they can be as bad as they are and it won't affect my game.

The second is "should there be a mechanical construct in the game to allow a character to create the effect of denial of oxygen to his target, thus triggering the drowning rules?"

My answer there is "absolutely - we see this in the source material, and it should be possible, practical and not overly cumbersome to build the same ability in the game".

So, an END Drain, SFX - fills lungs, using the drowning rules when 0 END is reached is too hard?

You are unhappy this might effectively take down a Brick. The first use of this power that comes to mind from the source material is the numerous times Sue Storm has taken out the Hulk by blocking his air with a force bubble, so "this takes down Bricks" seems like a feature, not a flaw, to me.
I hat to be a downer, but there have been times when the hulk was dumped in water and his lung capacity let him go on for a long time, ditto for evacuation in space. Then you had him get hit with gas that had to be breathed in, and even when prepared, he drops like a stone. Cherry picking comic books is poor argumentation - it can illustrate and effect, but trying to figure out consistent rules is practically impossible when you have different writers, different power levels, and dramatic storytelling. Unless you play your game the same way, it's not a great thing to do. I'm surprised you're not aware of this.

Still, I have to say I don't see this going anywhere, as it all seems pretty circular. You have some points I agree with, and many I don't, and again, I don't see the need to make a new power that can be done with an END drain. If you want explosive decompression, try NND (does not breath) for a 1-second evacuation of the lungs (even Does Body if you want to be more accurate).

[Sean Waters]

Perhaps we should think of a completely different mechanic for suffocation.

For example, you can hold your breath for a number of turns equal to your CON score. If you are unable to take a breath before suffocating then you can hold your breath for CON/2 turns, and if you hyperoxygenate before suffocating then you can hold your breath for CONx2 turns.

Once you have used that up, you have to make a CON roll every turn to keep holding your breath. Each additional CON roll after the first is at a cumulative -1 penalty.

Once you stop holding your breath, you rapidly take damage. You suffer a effect on your STUN and END each turn, at PS12 of 5 points (so you lose 5 Stun and 10 END per turn). The lost Stun and END recovers at 5 points per hour, or 5 points per minute if you have access to air. This effect cannot be dispelled or otherwise affected by any means other than getting air, but the lost STUN and END can be healed or aided, thus keeping you alive and conscious even though you are drowning.

You also take a 2 characteristic point drain against Body every turn once you are unconscious, which recovers at 5 points per hour, or 5 points per minute if you have access to air. Body lost in this way can be healed or aided. This makes it impossible to kill someone with standard regeneration by drowning.

All damage is considered NND (does not need to breathe).

Extended breathing increases the number of turns that you can hold your breath for. Each point doubles your CON for working out how many turns pass before you need to make CON rolls.

Optionally, once you start to have to make CON rolls from suffocation you need to make an EGO roll every turn, but this is not penalised. If you fail an EGO roll you have a panic reaction, which could include thrashing about or freezing up, or anything else for that matter. Generally you can decide the reaction, but the GM can veto it and substitute another if necessary. In addition you are considered to have failed your CON rolls from that point, and start taking damage. You can continue to make EGO rolls each turn and if you can make one at a -5 penalty then you can regain control of yourself. This does not allow you to start making CON rolls again, and you continue to take damage.

You can have 'suffocation' as a power or adder.

As a power it costs 10 points, is ranged and costs END. It is a constant power. It affects a single target, preventing them from breathing.

As an adder to a constant power it also costs 10 points.

As usual I am making this up as I go along. It probably needs tweaking if it is needed at all.

[Sean Waters]

That would mean a 10 characteristic normal would be able to hold their breath for 10 turns (2 minutes) or up to 4 minutes if they hyperoxygenate. They would then make CON rolls, and we can assume they make their 11- and 10-, so that is a further 2 turns before they take damage, or 2 minutes 24 seconds.

They will be out of END after 2 turns and nconscious after 4, or a total of 3 minutes. They then start to drown. They take 10 turns to get down to 0 Body (2 minutes) at which point they start losing Body twice as fast because of normal deterioration, so they last another 5 turns before they die, a total of 6 minutes to actually die. No idea if that is acurate.

If they get air just before dying then they recover STUN END and BODY at 5 character points per minute, but tehy will also have taken up to 5 Body from 'under 0' deterioration, which recovers at REC/month.

A superhero with 25 CON, 50 Stun and 15 Body could last 25 turns +5 turns + 10 turns (40 turns, 8 minutes) before falling unconscious and they take 15+8 turns (another 4 minutes and 36 seconds) to actually die.

Of course in combat if they are taking other damage they can go down a lot faster.

You might want a rule that if the character is expending END then the number of turns they can hold their breath for (their effective CON) is halved or even quartered, but, to be honest, it is not going to affect most superhero combats that much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Depends on the situation. Surely you've seen the mythbusters do the special on getting out of a flooded car. All you have to do is sit calmly and wait until it was full