The Old Guard

[Hermit]

Be they semi/fully retired, or still active, most campaign worlds have them. Many of them were fighting crime when the PCs were still in diapers. Warriors of the Gold and Silver ages, champions before the Champions were a team in MC, and heroes that saved the world so many times they've lost count ;They're the "Old Guard".

So, who are the old guard in your games? And how do you use them? :)

[Killer Shrike]

1 of our old guard is a PC; John Wrath, 72 year old retired Silver Avenger.

Extreme News Edition reporter Johnny Rocket, a brash and annoying NPC, constantly harrasses him about it, and works his age into just about every question, even to other PCs in reference to him.

[GenreFiend]

When I run a game, who the Old Guard is (or was), and whether or not they are still active depends on several factors. What world is it set in? How long have Supers been around? How does the general public feel about them? How many giant-sized-multi-title-earth shattering-whole-line-crossover crises have there been? :)
I ran a game a few months back in which the cities first super-hero appeared in the 1880s. He was called The Lightnin' Kid (Fastest Gun Alive).

[OddHat]

In my current campaign, Patricia Caliban, cousin of the legendary Doc Caliban, still haunts New York Society, willing to offer guidence to young heroes foolish enough to walk the path that cost her everything.

The Divine Wind, once Japan's greatest hero, now trainer of heroes and still wanted war criminal hides in a simple temple in the heart of Kyoto.

Sir James Hudson, once Big Ben, the man with No Time for Crime, sits in the house of lords, and lends his wisdom to the children who call themselves the Knights of London. Fine lads (and lasses), but not a one of them could be compared to the Knights he lead...

Golgatha the Vampire still stalks the night in Philadelphia, just as he has for well over a hundred years, though he is more cautious perhaps than he was when Patricia asked him to help protect her country during WWII.

There are others...
;)

My core players have played in this game world as pulp adventurers before metahumans were nearly so common and when the Council of Nine still had the power to keep the existence of metahumans a secret, as WWII heroes after the Germans created the Wild Card Virus which unlocked the latent metagenes present in roughly 10% of the worlds population, and in the modern age almost 60 years after Jet Boy failed to stop the release of the WIld Card over New York. Most of the Old Guard are characters they played or significant NPCs they fought.

[RDU Neil]

My "old guard" come mostly from PC driven origin stories or plot lines. I'll adapt the occasional NPC from a supplement (Hyperion from Sanctuary, Taurus from Zodiac and Sunburst from Classic Enemies) that become very important... but the real "old guard hero" types usually come up because of relationships to current PCs.

Ultraman & Lady White: Two of the most prominent American heroes in the '60s and '70s were created as the parents of long time PC Vector.

Phantomhawk: When created as a current PC, liked the idea of being a descendent of the original... so I introduced two past Phantomhawks... one a WWII mystery man, and the other a secret agent during the '60s.

Crusader: The original from 1st Edition Champions... I kept him as '70s and early 80's vigilante who grew old, retired, and passed on the mantle to an up and coming PC who had a similar origin story... updated power set just like the original Crusader... but none of it done intentionally by the player. When Crusader offered the mantle to the PC, he was overcome with the sense of history are really got into a whole new level of role playing with his PC, formerly called Intercept.

Sentinels of Justice: The greatest part about having a campaign that has run for 16 years, is that original PCs have BECOME the old guard. The original team of heroes created back in 1987 is no longer played, but has become the NPC group that sets the standard in America (the Champions disappeared years ago).

On a similar note:
Just recently, a player wanted a new character, and the discussion led to an old NPC that was created back in 1987. At the time, Bobby Stone was 7 years old and found a magic Godstone that gave him powers. It's now 16 years later, and Robert Stone (with a few significant NPC adventures) has just graduated college, a full fledged adult looking to use his powers to their fullest. That an NPC has gone from child to grown up during the course of the campaign has really brought home a depth to the campaign that is everything I've always wanted the gaming experience to be.
:cool:

[Enforcer84]

My campaigns all took place back in the late 80's early 90's I had updated the characters to make them viable, but now I think I might want to in my new world make them the last generation of heroes.

[levi]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
...The greatest part about having a campaign that has run for 16 years, is that original PCs have BECOME the old guard...

We have a similar situation in my group. About ten years ago, we had a team of heroes in San Francisco named the Protectors.

Anthem - was like Ultimate Cap, ten years ago. He was created by a German scientist at the start of WWII who saw what the Reich had planned for the world and gave the genetic formula to the Allies. They raised him as the "perfect" soldier and he led the Allies to final victory without using "the bomb". In the decades since, Anthem has fought in every major conflict the world has known, thanks to his enhanced genetics he ages slowly. He retired to become the senator of Montana when the Protectors disbanded.

In the current campaign, the West Coast Defenders proect the bay area under the auspices of PRIMUS and their special liazon Anthem. The old man comes in and lectures the whipper-snappers when they get out of line and provides a vehicle for interacting with PRIMUS and the US Gov't when the story requires it or the players request it.

This character was always hard to play because he was supposed to have seen it all, he makes a MUCH better NPC.

[Hermit]

This is indeed ironic, I've had a lot of my 4th ED campaigns become "Old guard" as well. My PCs seem to get a kick out of it.

[Patriot]

In Team Vanguard Continuity,
the Original Vanguard was a wwII team, who we met once during a timetravel scenario
and ...May be of some intrest to KS, My Characters father is named Johnny Rocket

[Killer Shrike]

Guess that Johnny Rocket guy gets around ;)

[winterhawk]

My campaign is set in Chicago as per Champions , so the Black Mask has been around since the end of the Civil War. Since my players are all comics fans, the heroes that have come before them are based on established characters:

Golden Age: Dr. Atlas (Hourman), The Black Mask (GA Batman), The Human Dynamo (The Human Bomb) & Kid Cyclone (Robin), The Tornado (Wildcat/GA Atom), The Comet (The Flash), Thunderman (DC Captain Marvel) and The Anthem (GA Black Canary).

Silver Age: Doc Atomic (Superman, Reed Richards, Captain Atom), Tornado II (Robin, Nightwing), The Anthem II (SA Black Canary), The Huntsman and Arrow (Green Arrow & Speedy), Thunderman II and Thundergal (Captain Marvel & Mary Marvel),
Shooting Star (Kid Flash), The Sting (Spider-Man), The Nightwraith (SA Batman), Horus (Thor), Black Hercules (Luke Cage), Nightmare (Ghost Rider), Wildfire (Starfire), Sparrowhawk (Apache Chief, Dawnstar from LSH), Dynaman (Ironman), and Bigfoot (The Beast).

[Storn]

Originally posted by RDU Neil


Ultraman & Lady White: Two of the most prominent American heroes in the '60s and '70s were created as the parents of long time PC Vector.



Vector has been around long enuff, seen enuff, done enuff... in his mind, he feels *very* old guard. It ain't the years, its the mileage.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Storn
Vector has been around long enuff, seen enuff, done enuff... in his mind, he feels *very* old guard. It ain't the years, its the mileage.

Yeah, but Vector's dad still has the best NPC quote I've ever had, IMO.

"Son... in my day, the guy with a skull mask who said he talked to dead people was the BAD guy."

Ultra Man to Geist (new PC also played by Storn) not long before Geist killed 20,000 people. :eek:

[GenreFiend]

of you guys who have your players create the Old Guard by putting them in to their characters' backgrounds! And especially y'all who are actually able to run a campaign long enough for former PCs to become the "Old Guard." How do you find people willing to stick to one campaign long enough to do that? And why am I the only one around here who ever wants their character to have a legacy behind them?

[Hermit]

Legacy heroes are some of my favorites as well Genrefiend :)

[Blue]

Since I am GMing and not playing, I made my character Uncle Slam as a veteran hero whose seen it all. He hugely disillusioned with the world, but has become a consultant on crime for the government. There are so many hero PCs in the game that I never need to actually have him fight. He's just there for them to talk to and ask questions. He's yoda/ben kenobi.

There is also Paragon, who has not reared his head yet, but is coming soon, assuming that the players continue doing what they are doing. He's by far the most powerful hero in the campaign and will likely assist in some kind of showdown with the campaign's big-bad; trouble will be not having him steal the show, but I've got a few ideas on how to do this.

The other NPC heroes are pretty much on par with the PCs.

[lemming]

In my current campaign I've got an old guard worked into the background, but no interaction between them and the players has happenned yet. Most of the old guard being considered the veterans of WWII that are still around. Then there are the "retired" villians that are around as well. Some of course just want to be left alone, others may decide to test out these newbies.
Hmm, another area where I see my procrastination is getting in the way.
A couple of these will probably be introduced soonish.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by lemming
In my current campaign I've got an old guard worked into the background, but no interaction between them and the players has happenned yet. Most of the old guard being considered the veterans of WWII that are still around. Then there are the "retired" villians that are around as well. Some of course just want to be left alone, others may decide to test out these newbies.
Hmm, another area where I see my procrastination is getting in the way.
A couple of these will probably be introduced soonish.

Heh... one of my favorite legacy origins is the one where "mom" "dad" or "Granddad" was a supervillain, but then reformed, retired etc. Then their off spring nearly dies of shock when they find out their 'evil roots' and decide to make amends for it. :)

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by GenreFiend
of you guys who have your players create the Old Guard by putting them in to their characters' backgrounds! And especially y'all who are actually able to run a campaign long enough for former PCs to become the "Old Guard." How do you find people willing to stick to one campaign long enough to do that? And why am I the only one around here who ever wants their character to have a legacy behind them?

The secret to a long campaign is that it is a "meta-campaign."

The Red Dragon Universe is like the Marvel or DC Universe (only much better :D ) There are hundreds of characters and dozens of "comics" that tell different stories in different parts of the world. Players don't play the same PC every game session, every week.

Storn joined RDU in 1992, w'Vector. Vector has semi-retired twice, been lost in time, etc. During those absences, Storn played other characters in different sub-campaigns... but eventually, the V man showed up again. Storn has probably 20 PCs over the last 11 years... some only played once or twice. A couple quite deceased.

Down time for characters is essential. Unlike comics that HAVE to have an adventure once a month to sell an issue... it is more realistic to have PCs who have weeks, months... even years go by without a significant "adventure worthy" event happen. During these down times, ideas percolate, and a stale character gains new freshness. They come back older, with a wife and kid and a new outlook on the hero business or whatever.

This kind of meta-campaign allows a freshness of game style, too. With a superhero world, it is very easy to have almost any "genre" show up. We have a lot of "wild martial arts" or "gritty guns and crime" or "mystic otherworldliness" type games... all happening within the same world as the very political and high level metahuman affairs that Vector deals with. Characters that are nothing more than well trained agents exist in the same world as Omega class earth breakers. They likely never meet... but it gives the players a sense of a larger context... a more complete existence... an definitely adds to the longevity of the overall campaign.

[Enforcer84]

Oh sure, you make it sound so easy...

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
Oh sure, you make it sound so easy...

Easy?

I didn't say easy.

No f*cking way has it been easy.

Fun, though. :D

[Patriot]

My Campaign Has Been on going for 12.5 years now...sadly I am The Only original member who shows up regularly

[Sketchpad]

Gotta agree with Neil here :) It is fun! ;) I recently have been compiling notes from my campiagn world, which has been going on for about 15 years now ... and has seen MANY game systems ... at one point, we had all the characters for every supers game statted out for each game ... just in case we wanted to change games or play in someone elses universe (we had occasionally cross overs with DC and Marvel in the early 90s ;) ).

[MoonHunter]

My Traditional Campaign. It was based on published heroes, where everyone entered the chronology when they first appeared and aged normally for their species (no duplicate characters and historical fiat).

There was a "Secret Wars" like event in 1982. Dr. Strange cast a spell of forgetfulness about the issue and the heroes that caused it. Thus people remembered there being superheroes but seem not to care that they are not around at the moment. A new Heroic Age began with their children and the new crop of mutants and mutates. When the super aspect restarted, we had Batman IV (the Robin of the BatmanIII Batman/Catwoman's son), Tony Stark did a Cameo in his wheel chair, and Namor's Atlantis finally became a member of the United Nations. Shield (UNTIL) and Hydra (VIPER) were still at it. Nick Fury was still alive, though he was a LMD.

Our new GreenLantern was just a member of the Corp

We had "GrandFather". Shugenja of the WWII Nipponese Super Team Tsunami. (He walked away from Nagasaki Ground Zero). His Granddaughter was a martial artist/ empath named Azure. He was also still wanted for his war crimes.

Players had the option of pulling from the past, but most opted for a clean break.


Outsiders
This campaign was based on the notion that paranormals had been around since the begining of humanity. They served as the basis for myth and folklore. Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, Sorcereers, Immortals, and current Psionics were all 75+75 plus eps characters. Their culture was that of hiding themselves among the humans and protecting the secret of their existance. There numbers were growing, as the number of humans with "Talent" were increasing.

Over the previous 2 decades, Metas began to occur. Paranormals of unhead of powers. 100+150 characters, some without a traditional phenotype (He's a werelightning bolt... yah right). Now there were a few dozen out there... and keeping the secret was becoming harder because they were not recognizable types, so they could not be found before they manifested their powers.

One meta decided to out himself. Dressing up like a superhero he performed public deeds. He called for heroes to protect the Earth from upcoming threats. He died alone facing off vs a monster horde on international TV. A few metas and stronger paranormals decided to become the Guardians he called for.

We had characters with back histories running 500 years. The Old guard were the Powerful Elders who where not used to all this public galavanting about.

[GenreFiend]

Originally posted by Hermit
Legacy heroes are some of my favorites as well Genrefiend :)
Yeah, but when I said "around here," I meant "in Western North Carolina." Not "on these boards." :D

[OddHat]

Originally posted by MoonHunter
Outsiders
This campaign was based on the notion that paranormals had been around since the begining of humanity. They served as the basis for myth and folklore. Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, Sorcereers, Immortals, and current Psionics were all 75+75 plus eps characters. Their culture was that of hiding themselves among the humans and protecting the secret of their existance. There numbers were growing, as the number of humans with "Talent" were increasing. SNIP
[/B]

I've been using something similar for years.
:)

Very flexible background, and plenty of great sources to draw on.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by OddHat
I've been using something similar for years.
:)

Very flexible background, and plenty of great sources to draw on. Ive gone that road before in several supers campaigns too. The only real downside is you can get stuck doing historical research to make some angles "authentic". And you can go too far and end up with a White Wolf-esque world where seemingly EVERYTHING can be traced to powered individuals, which gets silly.

[Doug McCrae]

In the campaign I'm currently working on the Gold and Silver Age heroes will be the real legendary types. They did great deeds, saved the world, came back from the dead, built secret bases, had statues built in their honour and places named after them. Their greatest battles even affected the geography of the Earth. They constructed mighty artefacts and weapons some of which are still kicking around.

In virtually all cases these heroes will be dead, missing or powerless in the current age.

It seems to me the real mythology of comic books is limited to:
GA Captain Marvel
SA Superman
Some of the legends and stuff associated with the GLC
Jack Kirby's Fourth World
Possibly GA Wonder Woman

That's it. All DC. The Marvel heroes are more down to earth.

[assault]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
It seems to me the real mythology of comic books is limited to:
GA Captain Marvel
SA Superman
Some of the legends and stuff associated with the GLC
Jack Kirby's Fourth World
Possibly GA Wonder Woman

That's it. All DC. The Marvel heroes are more down to earth.

Sure. No Marvel hero has ever saved the world from Galactus, have they? None of them have ever zipped around space on a surfboard. None of them is a Thunder God, the Sorceror Supreme, or the ruler of Atlantis. No, they are all far too down to earth for all that.

This is all a bit silly. Flagsuits and non-powered detectives are just as much part of the "mythology" of comic books as their more powerful counterparts. Mythology is about Heroes as well as Gods, Giants and Titans. For every Hercules, there is an Odysseus as well. For every Great Warrior, there is a Trickster, and so on.

Shrug. This is a game of definitions, so I'll stop before it gets sillier.

Alan

[Hermit]

As for Marvel's contributions, I would put the Fantastic Four there as well.
Also Captain America, but that maybe my like of the guy biasing me :)

[assault]

Originally posted by Hermit
As for Marvel's contributions, I would put the Fantastic Four there as well.
Also Captain America, but that maybe my like of the guy biasing me :)

Yes. I mentioned that certain Marvel characters had fended off Galactus. :)

More generally, the FF are probably the most iconic of the scientific adventurer heroes in comics. The Challengers of the Unknown can't cut it.

Captain America is, no doubt, the best known of the flagsuits. None of DC's come anywhere close.

And, I guess, the Hulk is by far the best known Monster-Hero. Whether or not that's a legitimate legendary type is another question, which just brings us back to definitions.

Alan

[Doug McCrae]

Assault: Good points. Not silly at all IMO.

I was thinking of stuff like the Phantom Zone, Bottle City of Kandor, the Superman Emergency Squad, Lori Lemaris, the Fortress of Solitude, Kryptonian geography (Fire Falls, Red Forest) and history. What I would call the Superman mythos.

From Captain Marvel: Shazam, the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man, the Rock of Ages, all those other guys with the Shazam powers.

Green Lantern mythos: The story of Krona, the history of Oa/Qward and that sort of thing.

Virtually everything to do with the New Gods counts as myth so I don't need to list anything individually.

Marvel: You're right about the Fantastic Four, Thor, Namor and Galactus. The old 'Tales of Asgard' strip in Thor which I've never read. The Celestials and other cosmic beings. The Eternals. Phoenix from the X-Men maybe? The Kree-Skrull War?

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by winterhawk
Golden Age: Dr. Atlas (Hourman), The Black Mask (GA Batman), The Human Dynamo (The Human Bomb) & Kid Cyclone (Robin), The Tornado (Wildcat/GA Atom), The Comet (The Flash), Thunderman (DC Captain Marvel) and The Anthem (GA Black Canary).Excellent names, Winterhawk.

[RDU Neil]

In my mind, mythic characters are beyond "Old Guard"

In my game, I think of old guard as recent historical figures that define the "heroic age" of the costumed figures.

If you want mythic... I just went to the source. I've made it a long running campaign plot that the old gods are returning. They made a major push back into the mortal realms in the early '90s, but have been behind the scenes since. The reasons for this are becoming apparent in the last year or so... and a new theory is gaining strength.

Perhaps the so called "gods" are simple some of the earliest metahumans. Even low powered metas would seem godlike to primitive cultures, and their powers and influence would be shaped by their cultures and societies.

This theory is important, because a PC who has, through years of gaming, died multiple times, being reborn each time more powerful... has fought and defeated his father, usurping his position... etc., etc... is now being worshipped by a growing cult who see him as a "new god."

What is especially cool, is that these events have just "happened" as a course of gaming. As a GM, I saw them unfold, but I did not force any of the events, nor did I encourage the player to start tapping into the latent power of devout worship... but he has.

The rest of the team is beginning to fear what this PC is becoming...

It doesn't get much cooler than that.:D

[dbsousa]

We have a silver age group and a golden age old guard in our game, each taken from other campaigns...
The Junior Achievers (Silver Age) were a teen team established in 1959 by Doc Wizard. when creating PC's for this, each player had to detail the PC's connection to a World War II hero.
The team members were:
Johnny Angel: combat precog whose daddy, Rebel Walker, fought with Sarge Steele in the Suicide Squadron, and whose neighbor, Doctor Daedalus was a Homefront Hero.
Stray Cat: martial artist who ran away after finding evidence that her parents, the homefront heroes Black Cat and Mad Dog, were involved in criminal activity
Mastermind: 13 year old Bobby Oppenheimer II, named after his famous uncle, has discovered the secret to cold fusion, and keeps it hidden in his battle suit so the government won't turn it into a bomb.
Barracuda half-breed heir apparent to the Atlantean throne with the ability to mimic the powers of marine life, Shelly Beechwood grew up on the shores of Florida with her human father.
more to follow...

[Storn]

Originally posted by assault


Captain America is, no doubt, the best known of the flagsuits. None of DC's come anywhere close.
Alan

I submit to you that Superman is not only a flag-suit character, the first superhero, he is WAY better known than Capt. America. Does Supes have stars and bars? No. But his colors are those of the american flag and was purposely done as such.

[Brandi]

Originally posted by Storn
Does Supes have stars and bars? No. But his colors are those of the american flag and was purposely done as such.

The American flag is red, yellow and blue? ;)

[GenreFiend]

The American Flag is red, white, and blue. Superman's costume is blue, red, and yellow. The idea wasn't to give Supes the colors of the flag, but to oufit him in primary colors. If Superman is a flag-suit, then so is Spider-Man, and I think we can all agree that nobody would ever call Spidey a flag-suit.:)

[assault]

Originally posted by GenreFiend
The American Flag is red, white, and blue. Superman's costume is blue, red, and yellow. The idea wasn't to give Supes the colors of the flag, but to oufit him in primary colors. If Superman is a flag-suit, then so is Spider-Man, and I think we can all agree that nobody would ever call Spidey a flag-suit.:)

In fact, Storn has a point, one which I was aware of, but decided to ignore.

Superman does have a "Truth, Justice and the American Way" thing happening. Whatever snide comments that may bring to mind, he does have a fair bit of Super-Patriotness, even if he isn't a literal flagsuit.

If you want a more literal flagsuit, try Wonder Woman. The best thing about it is: she's not an American! :)

Of course, we could argue about different versions of her costume, but the stars and stripe motif is definitely there.

However, I don't think that in either of those cases the flagsuitness is the primary aspect of the character in the same very obvious manner as Captain America.

But, yes, as I said, Storn has a point.

Alan

[Brandi]

Originally posted by assault
Superman does have a "Truth, Justice and the American Way" thing happening. Whatever snide comments that may bring to mind, he does have a fair bit of Super-Patriotness, even if he isn't a literal flagsuit.


Yes, though I was teasing about the colors. Also, keep in mind that at least in the era of the Fleischer cartoons, Superman only fought for "Truth and Justice"; the "American Way" part was added for the 1950s TV show, and I suspect for similar cultural reasons to the ones that got "Under God" added to the Pledge of Allegiance...

[zornwil]

I don't use them much, and there aren't too many. Heroes started just prior to 1950 so the oldest guard is 50 years old, but very few of the original few have lived on. In fact the first super, whose powers closely resembled Superman of the comic books, was killed very early on.

The oldest active super is Spiderman, who arose shortly after Superman in 1948. He's semi-retired now. My players have met him drinking heavily (with his body chemistry it takes a LOT to get himself drunk) at a private party in a secret Detroit mutant club that exclusively caters to the better-known and more glamorous heroes. He's a bit cynical but still light-hearted; a bit of a womanizer in his old age.

They've also run into Dr. Strange, whose been around since the late '60s. He's fairly serious and is actually keeping tabs due to a somewhat reckless scientist-turned-occultist in the group.

Doc Magnus has been around since the '60s as well, and developed the Metal Men in 1965. They've been rebuilt several times, naturally, and our group has met them as well. Also they've met Doc Magnus whose a very distracted, erratic but brilliant scientist.

Basically, these have all served mostly as color, but in a few cases also as contacts. Doc Magnus was unable or unwilling to help one character develop some deep government contacts but Gold was willing to do so.

There's a more detailed but sadly incomplete world history at http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/x-champions_setting/x-history.htm More general info on the world setting linked at http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/x-champions_setting/index.html

[Doug McCrae]

Spider-Man in the 1950s!!? Why'd you do that?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Spider-Man in the 1950s!!? Why'd you do that?

I just wanted to have Spiderman around as an older, senior hero, essentially the equivalent of Superman as the oldest and greatest. For reasons I don't want to go into (at least one player reads these boards), I wanted superheroes to start at that tiem.

As a side benefit, it was nice that he was around as a reporter with virtually unlimited access to super-battles and such. In fact, Peter Parker's photo essays went a long way to helping keep the image of mutant vigilantes alive as a heroic one - although they also served as a reminder of the mutant criminals bedeviling society, so a mixed bag in that way.

Why not put him in the 50s?

[WhammeWhamme]

I'd just like to point out that multiple countries have thesamecolours in their flags.