Ditching PS12

[Sean Waters]

PS 12 is an accounting point. It allows you to make recoveries and adjustment power adjustments and ends a turn.

This is not a new idea, but what if we got rid of PS 12?

Allow recoveries as normal (and each recovery you take allows an adjustment fade recovery too), but don't have any auomatic recoveries. That makes any recovery inc ombat far more problematic, and means having to sheperd resources far more.

ALTERNATIVELY allow SPD drains to drain characters to -1 SPD, that -1 representing PS12 (and possibly get rid of voluntary recoveries and ONLY have a PS12).

Thoughts? Do we really NEED a PS12, and shouldn't we have some power to prevent opponents taking one if we do?

[Captain Obvious]

I like the alternative rule rather than the first. If you eliminate post-12 altogether, no one can run for more than a few minutes at a time.

[Sean Waters]

I like the alternative rule rather than the first. If you eliminate post-12 altogether, no one can run for more than a few minutes at a time.

That or we come up with a rule that for long distance running (or any other kind of constant effort) you can devote one or more phases a turn to recovery, so, for instance, a SPD 2 character would then have to devote 1 phase a turn (or maybe every other turn) to recovery to keep going. We assume that, for constant effort, rather than running and stopping, running and stopping, they just run a bit slower. That might also allow us to get rd of non-combat movement - the simple fact would be that long distance movement would either require reduced END powers or a slower overall velocity (because you are not using all your available speed for movement).

In combat you'd certainly run out of energy quickly if you went all out, but that is not unrealistic - look at a boxing match - the fighters shepherd resources rather than running at full burn from the start.

[Beast]

PS 12 allows a convinient place to hold accounting and for the changing of a character's speed
in the face to face game I play in we keep account of drains and such to the segment it was done in
online PS12 is works out just fine

getting rid of PS12 means that there is 1 less place to take said recoveries
but then knocking someone out adds more in the accounting that the GM has to contend with, within the game slowing it down
PS 12 allows everybody to catch up and get back on the same page (especially the GM)

I see no reason to make the game more complicated especially if new players are wanted
I can see it as an optional rule but not a core rule

as for keeping somebody from getting PS 12 recoveries you either need to knock them out past PS12 or buy up the delay time on your adjustment power


PS 12 is an accounting point. It allows you to make recoveries and adjustment power adjustments and ends a turn.

This is not a new idea, but what if we got rid of PS 12?

Allow recoveries as normal (and each recovery you take allows an adjustment fade recovery too), but don't have any auomatic recoveries. That makes any recovery inc ombat far more problematic, and means having to sheperd resources far more.

ALTERNATIVELY allow SPD drains to drain characters to -1 SPD, that -1 representing PS12 (and possibly get rid of voluntary recoveries and ONLY have a PS12).

Thoughts? Do we really NEED a PS12, and shouldn't we have some power to prevent opponents taking one if we do?

[Egyptoid]

Sean, I can't put you on {IGNORE} because occasionally you do come up with
awesome answers to interesting questions. :straight:

But then you start threads like this, :confused: and one or two other mondo-meta-physical threads per week
of existencial questioning of the very fabric....

:dh:

Tell you what. I agree. Let's toss PS12 under the bus. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
And while were cleaning up, lets all agree the next best Characteristic to chuck out the window is INT
If the player himself doesnt figure things out, then tough cookies for the character. :(

I mean if Billy Bob can't figure out what the GM is doing, then
Captain Wonderful shouldnt be able to either, right ? :ugly:

Isn't INT just a horribly artificial crutch ? :nonp:
Howzabout It ?

[Comic]

How do you get rid of something that doesn't exist?

There's already rules for eliminating Post-12 recoveries, and most players and GM already have problems shepherding resources (Stun, Location, Velocity, Facing, Charges,..) in a timely manner during combat.

Post-12's a convenience that in my experience speeds up the running of encounters.

If it's not working that way in your game, by all means monkey around until you find something that works for your group.

If it is working that way in your game, why change it?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Sean, I can't put you on {IGNORE} because occasionally you do come up with
awesome answers to interesting questions. :straight:

But then you start threads like this, :confused: and one or two other mondo-meta-physical threads per week
of existencial questioning of the very fabric....

:dh:

Tell you what. I agree. Let's toss PS12 under the bus. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
And while were cleaning up, lets all agree the next best Characteristic to chuck out the window is INT
If the player himself doesnt figure things out, then tough cookies for the character. :(

I mean if Billy Bob can't figure out what the GM is doing, then
Captain Wonderful shouldnt be able to either, right ? :ugly:

Isn't INT just a horribly artificial crutch ? :nonp:
Howzabout It ?

That he's mad, 'tis true,
'tis true, 'tis a pity,
and pity 'tis, 'tis true.

[Fitz]

I did away with PS12 a long time ago, and haven't missed it at all. Good riddance, I say.

[Kdansky]

Interesting idea. My character would probably have REC 1 ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree with Kdansky that this would seriously devalue REC. Even with 1 REC, a 5 SPD character recovers 30 END and STUN a minute out of combat by taking recoveries. Take a 2 or 3 REC and you're at full after a minute's rest, and without PS 12, you won't be taking many in combat recoveries. It means once you're KO'd, you're out for the fight, but you can pump those points saved on REC back into defenses, STUN, END (or a Triggered or Persistent Healing STUN and END to give you some STUN and END back, say, once a turn...)

This approach would also make 0 END and End Reserves (especially high END low REC batteries) much more desirable.

[rjcurrie]

Eliminating PS-12 is not significant enough to me to make it a house rule. I am of the opinion that unless a house rule will create a significant difference in the game, it is probably better to use the rules as written.

[Alibear]

Having rec 1 means you recover 1 body per month, two when in hospital. Seems about right.

I've already ditched post segment 12 along with end.

[archermoo]

I've never seen a convincing argument that removing post 12 recoveries makes the game better in any way. Though obviously YMMV...

[nexus]

I've dropped it for games that I want to be "Gritty" with short somewhat brutal combats and PCs watching the resources but I like it more cinematic games (What Hero does best, IMO). It makes Extra Endurance Cost a much bigger disadvantage so it might be recosted in a game that does away with it.

Out of curiosity when would Adjustment powers fade by default, the bottom of Segment 12?

[Vulcan]

And without PS12, when would END Reserves recover?

Seriously, without PS12 Recoveries, character builds alter enormously. It no longer becomes profitable to have a high REC, so REC becomes the automatic buyback stat. END Reserves proliferate, as do characters with HUGE amounts of END. And the smart players just buy everything 0 END, except for the 'last ditch' x10 END attack, which is used once at the beginning of the fight to soften up the opposition.

I don't see that as an improvement myself.

[schir1964]

...Out of curiosity when would Adjustment powers fade by default, the bottom of Segment 12?
He said that Adjustment Powers would recover when the character took a Recovery Action.

To Sean: Interesting, I'll have to think about it some more.

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

He said that Adjustment Powers would recover when the character took a Recovery Action.

So I can avoid my Aid, Transfer, Absorbed points fading as long as I don't take a recovery? I guess I should sell my REC back to 1 and buy some Healing with a short reuse time instead. That Healing will:

- not be a recovery, so my Aid doesn't fade
- only require a half phase action
- not be disrupted if I take damage before my next phase
- not require me to shut off any powers
- allow me to spend END to maintain constant powers
- not reduce my DCV - in fact, I can shift any relevant levels to enhance my DCV

Even if I don't have stats adjusted upwards, Healing sounds like the way to go under this model.

[Beast]

you would need to calculate the recoveries from the point that the adjustment power took effect during the turn
example
a target hit in segment 4 with a drain would get the drained points back in segment 4 of subsequent turns unless the delay return rate where to be bought up

PS 12 is just a handy place to do all the book keeping
this may mean that some attacks may need to be delayed a phase or 2 to have more effect or the return rate can be bought up and ignore the timing

as for getting a recovery from adjustment powers by taking a recovery it should be noted that this would only work once per turn otherwise it would make adjustment powers useless and it would have to cut both ways for both positive and negative adjustment powers



on a personal note I believe Sean just likes the attention when he throws out these thread bombs


He said that Adjustment Powers would recover when the character took a Recovery Action.

To Sean: Interesting, I'll have to think about it some more.

- Christopher Mullins

[Alibear]

Maybe he just loves questioning and debating things? He is a lawyer ffs!:D

[archermoo]

I'll note that even if you get rid of the PS12 Recovery, there isn't necessarily any reason that you also have to get rid of using PS12 for other bookkeeping functions.

And if for some reason you didn't want to keep it for bookkeeping, it should be fairly simple to say that positive effects fade 12 segments after they are applied and that negative ones recover when you take a Recovery.

[Doc Democracy]

on a personal note I believe Sean just likes the attention when he throws out these thread bombs

Nah. He just gets bored when there isn't enough technical discussion of the rules and so he looks for stuff that he thinks we'll all enjoy talking about or trashing. :-)


Doc

[Ockham's Spoon]

For a better representation of actual combat, I think getting rid of PS12 recoveries is a good idea (but keep it for other book-keeping purposes). For more cinematic fights where combatants go on forever, not so much.

If you did dump PS12, you might want to include optional recovery rule that allows you to get a partial recovery (maybe a half or a third of REC) by skipping a PHA but not dropping your DCV; call it a "guarded" or "defensive" recovery. That way when your character gets exhausted or near unconsciousness he can recover without making himself an easy target. This would also better simulate actual combat where opponents frequently step back and circle eachother instead of having a constant flurry of fisticuffs. It would change the balance of the game as mentioned above (SPD and Reduced END become more useful etc.), but not too dramatically and certainly not to the point of unplayability.

[Sean Waters]

Nah. He just gets bored when there isn't enough technical discussion of the rules and so he looks for stuff that he thinks we'll all enjoy talking about or trashing. :-)


Doc


:whistle:

What?