Class of Mind

[Sean Waters]

Personally I'm not happy about the way the class of mind rules work. I can see a real use for that kind of rule, but I'm not happy with the current implimentation. I may be alone in that, I may not, hence the poll.

I'd also like comments on the rules from people, both those in favour and those against - what are the strengths of the idea and of the current rules, and what are the weaknesses? What would you change and what would you keep?

Rather than setting out my own stall here I'll leave the floor open for comment and then we can assess where we are in a bit.

Of course if no one does post opinions I might have to start waxing lyrical.

You know you don't want that :D

[BoneDaddy]

I'm troubled by the "machine" class of minds, since it seems to presume that nearly anything with moving parts (or transistors) has some level of intelligence, which simply isn't so. So far, all real world machines lack intelligence (as it is typically defined and understood, so far as I've seen) and therefor you can't mind control a coffee maker, Vespa, or laptop.

Aside from that clarification, I've no real trouble with the notion of classes of minds.

Why don't you like it? It might be more consistent with the rest of the game system if it was subdivided the way weapon and transport familiarities are, and the way senses are. Human class is one class, Animal class has the subclasses for mammals, reptiles, fish, fowl, etc., Machine class still makes me cringe.

Are all aliens really that much alike? I strongly doubt it.

[Hugh Neilson]

The logic that "aliens" are all similar enough to one another, but different enough from humans, to segregate them bothers me. Monkeys and dolphins have more in common, mentally, with ants and fish than with humans?

More than that, however, any rule that says "NPC's can do this but PC's can't" sits wrong with me. If the rules for classes of mind are fair and balanced, that should not be an issue. I would rather see "machine class" redefined with cyberpathy powers separate from other mental powers that affect sentient minds (anything with an Ego).

For characters or creatures whose mind is so alien that they are difficult to affect with mental powers, that character should buy Mental Defense and/or mental damage reduction and pay for what they get. If my character is a silicon-based rock man, he doesn't get general immunity from physical attacks due to his "class of body". There is no reason to treat mental attacks differently.

[tesuji]

pretty much i agree with hugh - dropping the machine control cyber powers into mental powers always felt like a cheap cobble to me. and all the other "class of mind" stuff for me sound like justifications or sfx for limitations or for mental defense, not needing to be deemed special classes with limited immunity and all the crap that comes from that.

so i would pretty much say ditch them except for conditional lims and such.

[Vondy]

A class of mind is essentially a special effect. I understand the idea behind the rule - and not every mind control deserves a limitation for what it can't control - but its not a very good rule (as written). The other issue is, while sentient machines and plants may fit neatly into their own classes, aliens, humans, and sentient animals are all "judgment calls" and may vary on genre and setting as opposed to mechanical class (Vulcans-Humans-Betazoids-Whales, but not some other common humanoid aliens, etc). I'd rather see mental defense or mental damage reduction as a means of defining "alieness." As for machines, it worked better as a limited form of mind control rather than a "class." I'm tempted to say "no rule - use SFX and genre-setting precedents").

[Doc Democracy]

I'm pretty happy with cyberpathy dumped into mental powers. It seems a decent fit, you want to control someone to do something then you use mind control, you want to control something to do something then you use....mind control.

Certainly, ATMs do not have minds. They do do things though and if I want to go up to a cash machine and ask it to hand over £50 then is that substantially different mechanically from going up to someone and asking them to hand over £50?

The problem is that we associate a lot of SFX with our mental powers.

I dont like the current system as it appears to allow someone to gain an effective immunity to mental powers because of the class of mind they choose to use.

I think that the classes of mind are worthwhile but that the GM should have to sit down early in thining out his campaign and decide one or two things.

What is the default class of mind?

How do the other classes of mind interact? If they are compatible (ie, powers by default work on all classes of mind) then there should be no added cost. If they are not compatible then he needs to think about grades of overlap and what costs he associates with them.

Personally, if the classes are all completely seperate then I would be slapping +2 costs on stuff just like happens for desolid - EGO, INT and mental powers would all be subject to these costs.


Doc

[caris]

I like class of minds, as an over all concept. What I don’t like is the inaccurate assumption that the example class of minds given in the main book was meant to be the definitive list that would/should be applied across all games, genres, etc. Given how common that assumption is, I believe there is at least a problem with the presentation, and at least one alternative list should have been offered.

The way I see it, the classes of mind were intended to give the GMs a tool to create the correct flavor for the way mental powers work in their games without inherently having to give everyone a limitation, and in particular without having to get into an argument over whether or not the GM can make a character take a specific Limitation (or Advantage or Disadvantage) period and/or if in doing so they need to charge points make characters spend points for these things.

I’d really like to see a more explicit discussion in the rules about the GM and/or play group being able/should redefine the way some things work to better get the feel, balance or something else of the game down right. This expands to situations where players might be required to buy something as part of their SFX that would normally be covered by NPC disadvantages in most games, everyman powers/disads/equipment/perks, etc., actual changes to the way some game elements work, and/or package deals.

[Chris Goodwin]

I voted no. I've gone round and round with Hugh Neilson on it, and neither of us is going to convince the other. My reasons...

1. It's optional
2. There's precedent in source, across genre lines
3. It's potentially useful in any genre.

Not going to discuss it further....

[Sean Waters]

I'm not adverse to the idea of classes of mind and I'm not even necessarily adverse to the idea of a particular class of mind giving you some sort of immunity or resistance.

For the current system to work in practice, it must assume that all classes of mind are equally likely to occur. I don't think that is the case.

The current system also assumes complete division between classes - get the wrong one and you are unable to affect the target, or you have immunity. That does not feel right (there are optional rules for reduced effect rather than immunity but they are currently still a blunt tool)

I would suggest that we look at a system that does not rely on sfx, as much as possible.

One option would be to assume that, whilst the mechanisms that power and direct a mind vary from species to species and from machine to man (and presumably also for hyper intelligent shades of blue), the actual MIND is the same in each case. If that is so then, so long as something does have a mind then it can be affected by any mental power and it is up to the player to build perhaps limited defences if they feel that their particular mind is generally harder to affect than others, because of differences.

That is, in many ways, the most ‘Hero’ approach – the rules don’t impose sfx changes. It can, however, prejudice players who want to build aliens if the GM has ruled that aliens have to spend 10 points on mental defences with the limitation ‘not against mental attacks from own or similar species (-1/4 to –1, depending on prevalence). That, in effect, is imposing sfx by another route. I’d suggest it is somewhat more acceptable as it uses campaign rules rather than system rules, and no more of a problem that, say, building a character who was an ex-silver avenger and so using that sort of character as a template.

In fact I don’t think we can entirely remove sfx unless we completely homogenise the mindscape, and it would be a shame to do that, so my preferred option would be to have the assumption that mental powers affect all minds equally, and a series of suggested builds and limitations for simulating ‘alienness’.

Similarly if you want mental powers that ONLY affect a particular mind type, or only affect a particular mind type at full power, then you should take a limitation: Only Affects Humans would be –1/4 at best. Only affects Arcturans (when you know there are very few Arcturans on the planet) –2. Something like that.

Now one thing several people have bought up is cyberpathy – machine communication and control. There is no reason in theory why the same rules should not apply – if the target has a mind you can affect it normally. The problem with cyberpathy is that machine minds are so rare either the power is useless (well, not useless – it should get a substantial limitation value if it can ONLY affect machine minds) OR people stretch a point and have it control things it shouldn’t – like kettles and cars and laptop computers.

In fact there is no real power in Hero to extract information from a target other than an enhanced sense or telepathy. It is certainly tempting to modify telepathy to read hard drives, and maybe there is an argument to make telepathy a more general information gathering power, but the assumption seems to be that something that is living can put up resistance (and so you need telepathy) something that is not can just be read with a sense.

Equally there is no general control power, and so it is tempting to modify mind control. This is, if anything, even more problematic. You can use TK to move or animate objects, even if they do not normally move, but what you can’t really use TK for is to operate objects. Something as simple as making a traffic light change on command is not something you can do with TK – there are no switches to push – and you shouldn’t do with Mind Control because there is no mind. I think there is quite a strong argument for a more generic control power, rather than forcing Mind Control into a place that it does not really fit.

[Sean Waters]

I was reading Caris’ post and thought of this, entirely as a house rule:

Assuming a game where the majority of players and challenges will be human, we put human at the centre of a little three pointed star, with the limbs marked ‘Alien’, ‘Animal’ and ‘Machine’. There are two marks on each limb, or steps, and each one gets you further away from human (and, for that matter, machine and animal if you are alien). The third step will take you into a completely different class of mind.

Each step you move away from your native mind (which you can place anywhere you like on the star) acts as 25% damage reduction against all mental effects, from telepathy to damage, and that works both ways, so if you have mental powers yourself, the person you are targeting gets the DR for each step.

So, a human can affect any other class of mind but only at 25% efficiency (as with all damage reduction it applies AFTER you have applied defences). If, for example, you decide you are one step towards animal in your class of mind, you can affect animals at 50%, humans at 75% and ‘full’ aliens and machines not at all (and another mind at your step at full effect).

You can buy another step on the star (it needn’t be next to your current one) for 5 points, which gives you another class of mind in addition, and you ALWAYS take the shortest route to an opposing class of mind whether you are defending or attacking. Optionally you can buy an additional class of mind for 15 points, which gives you the ability to attack from that point, but you always defend from your native class of mind.

You can draw additional lines too, but they are always the same length. For instance, you could draw a line from aliens to ‘Alien Animal’, or even one that connects Alien and Machine (why, after all, should an alien mind be less adept at affecting the machine class) and build up a mind map for your campaign, although I’d be inclined to keep it pretty simple and generally to insist that chosen classes of mind remain somewhere near the centre.

Hopefully I've attached a little diagram of what I mean.

It is not a general solution, but might be an interesting way to build a mindscape for the right sort of campaign.

[Kelcyron]

We just simply ignore classes of minds.

Kelcyron

[Edsel]

No, primarily because it is an optional rule anyway. If you don't like it don't use it. If you do use it you are free to expand the classes of minds to fit you taste. I see no problem whatsoever.

[schir1964]

The classes of minds as presented in the Hero 5th Edition had a major problem. It gave just the barest of information on how it is to be used with no explanation of what the goal the rule is to achieve nor the intent of the rule in the first place.

The information presented only makes sense if one had already read the Ultimate Mentalist (which I believe is where the rule was derived from). However, without that book or information contained therein, there is not enough guidelines for a consistent application of Classes Of Mind rules.

First one must decide what the purpose of defining a Class Of Mind serves in the first place.
Second is then how a Class Of Mind should be implemented within the campaign.
Finally one decides what rules should be used to affect that implementation in the most appropriate manner.

Just Some Musings

- Christopher Mullins

[Kdansky]

Class of minds is an SFX with MAJOR game implications. SFX don't cost points, game stuff does. Therefore we have a problem.

[Xotl]

I hate that rule, the change in 5th that I disliked the most. It strikes me as a great optional rule for Ultimate Mentalist, but a lousy one for the main rulebook, a case of forcing mechanical limitations based on SFX, something Hero is always attempting to get away from. It could be a wonderful setting rule as well. Otherwise I'd much rather see it modeled with Limited Power (doesn't work on machine intelligences) and the like. I'm sure this has been brought up, as it seems rather obvious, but you don't have to buy machine class of targets and use up active points to specifically be able to harm machine intelligences with an Energy Blast.

I really hope 6th does away with the concept, shuffling it off to a sourcebook for those who want that kind of restrictive granularity.

[Kenn]

Alien rock creature as NPC can't be affected by Mind Control because his mind is too bizarre/strange. Alien rock creature as PC can be affected by Mind Control despite his mind being too bizarre/strange because he's a PC. Unless the Mind Control is built for alien minds, in which case the "who is affected" gets switched.

Jabberjaw is immune to Aquaman's aquatic telepathy because he's a PC???

Wonder Dog (NPC) and Scooby-Doo (PC) can't be affected by the same type of mind control???

Since a PC could be any type of character, and any type of character that can be a PC is sufficiently human enough to be affected as the "human class" of minds the existing rules are essentially useless.

Only the case of cyber telepathy is it really useful, and that's because Mind Control or Telepathy that works against something that only has INT and no EGO is truly different. And in those cases, the power should be bought with a limitation.

[Manic Typist]

Um...

Why does an alien have to have an "Alien" Class of Minds? Why can't the alien take Human? Why can't a Human take Alien, or Animal, etc?

I think that might something to look at. With your chart.... it presupposes that "animals" are different from aliens... but what if the aliens were a little closer to animals in their mentality than humans? That would change things up.

Instead, simply look at each mind (or set of minds) as it relates to others. Human is what we all know and love... but perhaps you run into a sociopath whose mind is Alien to you? You look in there...and are horrified, because you don't recognize what's behind those eyes? Likewise, you could look at a Martian.... and be shocked at the similarities to your own. Extrapolate from there (some aliens might have Alien, some Human, some Animal, etc).

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mind classes are SFX. In a normal superheroic game, I say 'people, machines, animals' and leave it at that. If you can only affect humans in a galactic campaign, then hey, that's a disad, for me. Or maybe you alter the classes to be 'carbon intelligent, silicon intelligent, carbon unintelligent...'

IMNSHO, anyone who hasn't stated 'mind classes are X, Y, and Z' for their own game is just begging to get smacked.

[eightiesboi]

I agree that the Hero System "Classes of Mind" could use some work. In our campaign, I came up with the idea of a two axis system. I don't have the final table here at work, but I have attached a .pdf of one of the original drafts. (I tried to paste it as a table in this post, but I couldn't get the BB code to work. Sorry.)

The idea here is that each "class" of mind corresponds to a row OR column on the table. In other words, if I take telepathy that effects "Sentient" minds, I get AIs, Monsters, Animals, Humans, and Revenants for free. If I want only to telepathically contact humans, then I take a limitation. If I only want to contact a subcategory of humans, then I take a further limitation. If I want to add an additional row or column, I pay the extra points for an additional class of minds. Obviously, if I take a row and a column, there will be one category of overlap, but there is no point break for making such a choice. The last column, "Incomprehensible", reflects a category that is immune to mental effects, but also cannot mentally effect other ("normal") minds.

This is the rough table, the finished one was better balanced, but you get the picture. I think that a good idea for Class of Minds would be to expand it to a two-dimensional table (or 3-D, if you consider subcategories to be on the Z-axis).

[Sean Waters]

Have you noticed how, in comics, 'class of mind' type things only come up when it is important to the plot?

Perhaps we ought to just buy all mental powers with the modifier (at +0): Works on all minds, unless the GM decides it doesn't.

In fact that only leaves us to worry about cyberpathy - really it shouldn't work on anything without EGO just as mind control does not work on doors, or walls.

I seriously think we need a 'control (or animate) matter (or energy)' power, as opposed to 'control mind' which is all we have now.

Telepathy against the inanimate can be accomplished with an enhanced sense, but you can't really persuade a kettle to turn itself on or my Skoda Felicia to drive itself with cyberpathy. Well you can, but it involves giving the rules such a massive kicking that they are not recognisable anyway.

[Zeropoint]

In the unlikely event that I actually get to run a supers game, this is how I handle it:

"Human" class of mind includes humans, and anything close enough to human that we can interact with it meaningfully, which obviously includes all player characters. It also includes sapient animals and sapient computer systems, etc. provided their mentality is similar to humans.

"Machine" is all non-sapient machines, and sapient machines may be affected as both human and machine, and may have mental defenses reflecting their nature, or may not.

"Alien" is for beings so strange that we can't interact with them meaningfully, like Qliphothic beings.

[SSgt Baloo]

I voted no because I'm stubborn and set in my ways. If I don't like the way it works, I'll just change the way it works in my campaigns (and probably vary it from genre to genre). Hero system is customizeable. That doesn't mean it has to be written the way I want it to and everybody else can go jump in the lake.

Feel free to jump in the lake if you want to anyway. :eg:

ETA:

In the unlikely event that I actually get to run a supers game, this is how I handle it:

"Human" class of mind includes humans, and anything close enough to human that we can interact with it meaningfully, which obviously includes all player characters. It also includes sapient animals and sapient computer systems, etc. provided their mentality is similar to humans.

"Machine" is all non-sapient machines, and sapient machines may be affected as both human and machine, and may have mental defenses reflecting their nature, or may not.

"Alien" is for beings so strange that we can't interact with them meaningfully, like Qliphothic beings.

Yep! That sounds like it would work.

[SteveZilla]

But what if it's an Alien Machine that perfectly mimics a Human/Animal cross? :D

[SteveZilla]

Here's my thoughs on the subject. YMMV. I think that most "minds" could be classified by two distinct (and very broad) Scales:

Sentience Scale: Machine-Animal-Dim-Full
Categoery Divergence Scale: Major-Minor-Negligible

Not all Machines are Machine Sentience (look at Mechanon or Data), and some minds of Major Divergence can be of the same Full Ssentience (look at the Horta from Star Trek).

Every step away from what a character is on either scale counts as a step of Damage Reduction (or as 5ER suggests, -3 ECV and -10 Effect). Using this system, the GM can either run a mental-simple game or a mental-complex game.

In either type of game, the GM defines what the default Sentience and Category is. By Category, I mean things like "Human", "Extra-Dimensional Coherent Energy", "Lovecraftian Horror", "Robo-Rally bots", "Bees in a Hive", etc. Part of this is deciding the big question of "What does it mean to be X"? For instance, what does it mean to be Human? Points that affect the "What is an X" IMO include how one X views itself, how it interacts with others and it's environment, and what it is capable of (to barely scratch the subject).

In a mental-simple game, all non-default characters are "outliers", and just need defining how much different they are from the default. And in the case of two outliers, you'd trace the path of difference from one, though the default, to the other to get the total difference. Essentially, this could be looked at as a straight-line graph (ignoring all outliers that aren't part of the path used).

Or, the GM can run a mental-complex game. In which, each group (group being defined by it's dual Scale definition) is a "default" unto itself. Which means that now the GM needs to define how different each group is from each other. No small task, as this would result in either lots of tables (one for each group), or a chart like this:

30027
But it gets really complcated real quick, and IMO that way lies madness. (Note that I simplified it from 25%/50%/75% DR to 1 pt/2 pt/3 pt of difference.)

So a Human Mentalist (Prof. X) would be: Human Category, Full Sentience. When he uses a Mental Power (other than Mind Link -- its kinda the odd man out) on a target, the target can be Full/Negligivle (another human) for full effect, or a Full/Minor (a somewhat similarly-minded alien species) for 25% DR, or a Dim-Negligible (a human in a coma) for 25% DR, an "Animal"/Negligible (a person in a persistent vegitative state) for 50% DR.

IMO The Borg (from Star Trek) would be Full Sentience/"Machinistic" Category. They are a collective, there is no community, there is no individual, and there is no freedom to change one's allotment. Making them have 50% DR when attacked by Janeway the Mentalist. ;)

However, the problem is when the "mental road" is one way, like with all non-mentalist characters.

Say I want to play an Neonian Mentalist who came to Earth. He still shares many "mental traits" that humans have, so he's pegged at being Full Sentience, and Neonian Category (Minor Divergence relative to Humans). This gives him 25% DR against Human mentalists, but each and every human he attacks mentally also has 25% DR against him. I think that generally balances on the surface.

But, if my Neonian *didn't* have any mental powers, there would be no downside to counterbalance the 25% DR he would get. What to do in that case? I'd be willing to say that "If there is reasonable counterbalance, you can get it for free, but if not then you have to pay for it." And of course the GM determines if there actually is reasonable counterbalance. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Every step away from what a character is on either scale counts as a step of Damage Reduction (or as 5ER suggests, -3 ECV and -10 Effect). Using this system, the GM can either run a mental-simple game or a mental-complex game.

Simply using this as the benchmark, we can purchase either mental damage reduction (with limitations) or +3 DECV, +10 Mental Defense per level of divergence (again, with limitations). A limitation can also be taken on any mental powers the character has.

Kind of like reasoning from effect and buying the abilities to achieve the effect (isn't there a game out there somewhere based on that idea?)


In either type of game, the GM defines what the default Sentience and Category is. By Category, I mean things like "Human", "Extra-Dimensional Coherent Energy", "Lovecraftian Horror", "Robo-Rally bots", "Bees in a Hive", etc. Part of this is deciding the big question of "What does it mean to be X"? For instance, what does it mean to be Human? Points that affect the "What is an X" IMO include how one X views itself, how it interacts with others and it's environment, and what it is capable of (to barely scratch the subject).

In a mental-simple game, all non-default characters are "outliers", and just need defining how much different they are from the default. And in the case of two outliers, you'd trace the path of difference from one, though the default, to the other to get the total difference. Essentially, this could be looked at as a straight-line graph (ignoring all outliers that aren't part of the path used).

Or, the GM can run a mental-complex game. In which, each group (group being defined by it's dual Scale definition) is a "default" unto itself. Which means that now the GM needs to define how different each group is from each other. No small task, as this would result in either lots of tables (one for each group), or a chart

Or the GM and player (if a PC) decide how far the character is from the norm, and buy that much mental defenses/reduction.

BTW, -3 ECV per level seems remarkably steep. Spock and the Horta are about as far off as I can envision, and he managed to make rudimentary contact.


Say I want to play an Neonian Mentalist who came to Earth. He still shares many "mental traits" that humans have, so he's pegged at being Full Sentience, and Neonian Category (Minor Divergence relative to Humans). This gives him 25% DR against Human mentalists, but each and every human he attacks mentally also has 25% DR against him. I think that generally balances on the surface.

Sure - the limitation on 25% of his dice in each mental powers ("Not against humans") will cover that nicely, and will either cover the cost of his mental defenses, fall short or generate a benefit, depending on the extent of each set of abilities.


But, if my Neonian *didn't* have any mental powers, there would be no downside to counterbalance the 25% DR he would get. What to do in that case? I'd be willing to say that "If there is reasonable counterbalance, you can get it for free, but if not then you have to pay for it." And of course the GM determines if there actually is reasonable counterbalance. ;)

Or we could actually USE the very detailed power construction rules to build mentalists who are apart from the norm and let that balance things out. Why do we need special rules for mental powers when we have detailed rules for mental attacks, mental defenses and limitations on same?

[Sean Waters]

If you build aliens with mental defences, rather than powers, then they are prejudiced in a point allocation system unless thay build a character who relies on mental defences. By that I mean two characters, one human, one alien, if you HAVE to buy the alien with 10 points of mental defence (not against similar aliens -1/2) then the alien has 7 points less to spend on, say, being an ace pilot than the human.

The alternative is to have a game rule, like class of mind, or require everyone to buy 7 points of mental defence (human's included) as above.

If you have a game rule, or force players to spend a set number of points it is only going to work out fairly if there is a balance between the number of humans and aliens in the game, or if all the PCs are of the same race.

That's why this is a difficult area because we are trying to come up with a general rule for a range of specific and different situations. General rules don't work well.

The other thing that I suspect is happening is that people are using 'machine class' mind control to, for instance, control the toaster: you can't - it does not have a mind any more than that tree does, or that rock. Defining a class of mind does not in any way change how the power works. Unless the target has an EGO score you can't touch it with mental powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you build aliens with mental defences, rather than powers, then they are prejudiced in a point allocation system unless thay build a character who relies on mental defences. By that I mean two characters, one human, one alien, if you HAVE to buy the alien with 10 points of mental defence (not against similar aliens -1/2) then the alien has 7 points less to spend on, say, being an ace pilot than the human.

If all elves are required to have Longevity for 2 points, they have 2 points less to spend than the human does. If you give the Alien 10 points of mental defense, not vs similar aliens for free, then the human mentalist is prejudiced. He didn't get any free mental defense.

[SteveZilla]

If all elves are required to have Longevity for 2 points, they have 2 points less to spend than the human does. If you give the Alien 10 points of mental defense, not vs similar aliens for free, then the human mentalist is prejudiced. He didn't get any free mental defense.

I believe that if there are no alien mentalists then the human's mental defense, not vs other Humans is kinda moot. But once there are alien mentalists, then it's either a required expenditure of points for both humans and alien, or doing a class of minds rule (which effectively the required point expenditure is as well -- it just has an point cost associated with it to boot).

[Sean Waters]

If all elves are required to have Longevity for 2 points, they have 2 points less to spend than the human does. If you give the Alien 10 points of mental defense, not vs similar aliens for free, then the human mentalist is prejudiced. He didn't get any free mental defense.

Well, yes - the problem of non-humans is a thorny one, which is why I used to like the idea of a package deal actually costing less than the contents. It was a package and a deal. You still gave up a number of points but less than you would if you scratch built the charatcer.

IMO, if we are not going back to old style PDs, all available races should have a racial package deal that costs the same and is of roughly equal utility, or someone is losing out. The alien gets 10 MD against humans, the human gets 10 MD against aliens. That's fine so long as there is roughly an equal chance of meeting humans and aliens and both races use mental powers, otherwise, not so much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, yes - the problem of non-humans is a thorny one, which is why I used to like the idea of a package deal actually costing less than the contents. It was a package and a deal. You still gave up a number of points but less than you would if you scratch built the charatcer.

IMO, if we are not going back to old style PDs, all available races should have a racial package deal that costs the same and is of roughly equal utility, or someone is losing out. The alien gets 10 MD against humans, the human gets 10 MD against aliens. That's fine so long as there is roughly an equal chance of meeting humans and aliens and both races use mental powers, otherwise, not so much.

If the chance is not equal, the limitations should be different, thus adjusting the cost. If aliens are rare, their Mental Defense has a very small limit and their mental attacks receive a very high limitation for being less effective, or completely ineffective, against those very common Humans. Or they pay full freight (just like such an alien would almost certainly buy the "affects human minds" adder under the Classes of Mind rules).

If Humans are common and Aliens are rare, the Human is the baseline and Aliens adjust their costs for their differentiation from the Human baseline norm.

Just like robotic Automatons pay for Takes no Stun, rather than making it a freebie for their "Class of Body".

[Killer Shrike]

I think the concept of class of mind is ok in the abstract but the concrete DEFINITION of what constitutes a class of mind and the confusion it causes vis a vis playable characters, the necessity to model characters with multiple classes of minds via a Physical Lim, etc to be a poor implementation.

[Sean Waters]

I think the concept of class of mind is ok in the abstract but the concrete DEFINITION of what constitutes a class of mind and the confusion it causes vis a vis playable characters, the necessity to model characters with multiple classes of minds via a Physical Lim, etc to be a poor implementation.

I can certainly agree with that - it is not easy to come up with a rule that works for every scenario, but we can probably do better than what we have.

Silly thought - all races are naturally telepathic (although not everyone is telepathic) - and equally naturally develop defences against races they frequently come into contact with (including their own) to keep out of each other's heads. Races they have never come into contact with they have no defence against. By that view you'd have defences against your own race but not against other races.

Ultimately I think my problem with the Class of Minds rule is that it imposes sfx and a particular view of how mental powers work on the game, which is possibly why many see it as problematic.

[SteveZilla]

Part of the problem with Classes of Minds IMO stems from the lumping of Machine Class Telepathy to read Computers & Hard Drives into what Telepathy can be made to do.

That decision then made it viable for every "organic" Mentalist, who in no stretch of their SFX could possibly read the Surface Processes of the AMD processor, to take a Limitation like "Not Vs Machines".

Which then led to Classes of Minds as a way to keep the distinction but prevent most mentalists from getting a -1/4 Limitation discount on all of their powers.

I think if we could seperate the Cyber-stuff from the Non-Cyber-stuff by creating a new set of powers (like the Activate someone mentioned), this would go a long way to remedy the problem. I.e., you'd no longer use Telepathy on the Dell Laptop but instead a power called, say, Scan Device.

[Sean Waters]

Part of the problem with Classes of Minds IMO stems from the lumping of Machine Class Telepathy to read Computers & Hard Drives into what Telepathy can be made to do.

That decision then made it viable for every "organic" Mentalist, who in no stretch of their SFX could possibly read the Surface Processes of the AMD processor, to take a Limitation like "Not Vs Machines".

Which then led to Classes of Minds as a way to keep the distinction but prevent most mentalists from getting a -1/4 Limitation discount on all of their powers.

I think if we could seperate the Cyber-stuff from the Non-Cyber-stuff by creating a new set of powers (like the Activate someone mentioned), this would go a long way to remedy the problem. I.e., you'd no longer use Telepathy on the Dell Laptop but instead a power called, say, Scan Device.


Absolutely - 'machine telepathy' need be no more than an enhanced sense, 'machine mind control and machine mental illusions' just a transform (or a brand new Activation Power....hmmmm....).

[Chris Goodwin]

Ultimately I think my problem with the Class of Minds rule is that it imposes sfx and a particular view of how mental powers work on the game, which is possibly why many see it as problematic.

Ok, I now see where the disconnect has been between me and Hugh Neilson.

I don't see it this way at all. I see it as an optional tool the GM can use to add flavor to his game. The GM can use it to impose SFX and a particular view of how Mental Powers work, but that's the GM's job. I don't see it imposing anything, because it's optional.

[Sean Waters]

Ok, I now see where the disconnect has been between me and Hugh Neilson.

I don't see it this way at all. I see it as an optional tool the GM can use to add flavor to his game. The GM can use it to impose SFX and a particular view of how Mental Powers work, but that's the GM's job. I don't see it imposing anything, because it's optional.

I think that is a good way to look at it, and I think if that were clearer in the book (with maybe an alternative there too to show they really mean it), the world would be a better place :)