Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

[Kintara]

*LINK* Here is a magic system I've always wanted to use. (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/unlimited-mana.htm) You might be familiar with it. I was thinking about how I would implement it. It's really great, and lends real mysticism to magic. Of course it doesn't play well with Hero, in a few respects. It is open-ended with respect to mana. No limits in HERO equal issues. Also, the way that GURPS magic worked allowed for spells to expand in scope with the amount of fatigue you spend.

To get the flavor of the system, there needs to be spells that can be rather epic in scale, if the mage wants to expend a lot of power at once. There also needs to be no limits on the amount of mana you spend.

Anyway, the mana system might be covered by making the spells No End, and taking a Side Effect that simply inserts the system in. I would have to think on what it was worth. Of course, I still need to think on how the spells would work. How do you envision implementing this?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Spells with no END cost go against the grain for HERO. They make mages almost infinitely powerful,m especially if they can cast spells as potent as a superhero's attack. If you can cast an unlimited number of 12d6 Explosive Fireballs, then you're pretty much unbeatable unless you have some pretty potent Limitations on the spell. And I don't even want to think about the same spell with Autofire....

No END attacks are unbalancing enough in Champions. In fantasy HERO, they're devastating. You want to provide SOME incentive for a player to play a character other than a mage....

[Kintara]

Well, if you read the system, the limit is still there (in a way). The system works so that you tally the mana you spend, and when it reaches a threshold, you have to roll on a calamity table. You can spend as much mana as you want, but you will cause all kinds of havok to you, the people around you, and even the world.

Edit: I'm going to expand on why this system is a little bit difficult to implement. I can simply import the Calamity table and threshold stuff whole cloth, and make it a Side Effect. Or I can think of some sort of way to make it an END reserve, and cap it at a very high level (not my favorite option). But the problem doesn't end there because of the way spells work in GURPS. In GURPS the limit on power is defined by how much fatigue you spend. In HERO, it's more about the point cost of the spell.

To put it another way, GURPS spells are pushable to an extent that HERO spells aren't. In fact, many GURPS spells are unlimited in their pushing ability, and are instead limited by the amount of Endurance (Fatigue, in GURPS) you can practically spend.

[Chris Goodwin]

UMana was intended to tweak GURPS' crunchy bits to give more fun results. Hero doesn't have the same limitations GURPS does as regards emulating magic.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by archer
UMana was intended to tweak GURPS' crunchy bits to give more fun results. Hero doesn't have the same limitations GURPS does as regards emulating magic. Then it should be easy. How should I do it?

Should I change it a little bit, and ignore how the spells scale in GURPS, and ignore the open-ended nature of the mana, and just apply a limitation to a large END reserve?

Edit: Oh, I get it. I know HERO is cool enough to engender the same level of scope and mysticism that this system gives magic. But I like this system in particular.

[Zoth]

Basically what you have with unlimited mana system is safety threshold and over threshold. Safety threshold I think could be modeled using a normal END reserve.
Now going over the threshold is a little trickier but if you look at the calamity table for the amount you go over you get about an equal calamity. So I would make a 0 point advantage “can go over END reserve but for every END point you go over you get an equal point amount side effect�. Then just make a table up to what most players would never go over and if they do you get to come up with something to surprise them with :D

[Snarf]

I think it might help to focus on the essential features of the UMana system in plain english, rather than trying to directly convert rules first. As near as I can tell, it should do these things:

-It is not tiring to cast spells.
-Enormous spells are possible.
-Cast spells to excess and some horrible disaster will occur.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Zoth
Basically what you have with unlimited mana system is safety threshold and over threshold. Safety threshold I think could be modeled using a normal END reserve.
Now going over the threshold is a little trickier but if you look at the calamity table for the amount you go over you get about an equal calamity. So I would make a 0 point advantage “can go over END reserve but for every END point you go over you get an equal point amount side effect�. Then just make a table up to what most players would never go over and if they do you get to come up with something to surprise them with :D Yeah, but the problem is this, I want the ability to be able to splurge on one spell, and create one massive effect. Like, say, I need to cast a sleep spell over an entire base or something. Even if I make two spells, one normal Mass Sleep, and one Megascaled version, it still doesn't quite work because Megascaling doesn't raise the END enough. I suppose I could add an Increased End cost to them, or buy it in a more cumbersome way, but I still don't like the results. I need a better pushing system.

[Snarf]

At the very least, you would have to remove the limits placed on pushing. A maximum of double effect,10 character points, and such is not going to be as dramatic a difference as you're looking for.

If you use the endurance reserve method, you could track the endurance you've exceeded the safety threshold by, and use that to calculate the APs of a side effect.

I think a system like this could be useful outside of Fantasy Hero. It could just be a generic safety threshold advantage, representing a buildup of side effects. It could just be another way to fuel powers; an alternative to endurance, charges, and 0 END.

[Zoth]

IC what you are really looking for is away to allow the character to go over a set active point level? So normally a character can cast up too say 50 ap before going over his ap threshold? Then he can cast a spell as high as he wants over 50 ap but will get a calsmity?
May be you could use a VPP and wave the 60 point max and say for every point over 60 ap you get a equal point side effect kind like the 1st idea. Each configuration would be a spell and the VPP would require a skill for each configuration.

[Kintara]

Well, what I want is what the article describes. The important parts are varied. Firstly, when you cast spells, you should be able to cast the spell at a variety of power levels. You should be able to push it, and push it in a way that isn't entirely unappealing. Also, the spell's cost, however it is simulated, should not really tire you, and should be tallied up. And when the tally reaches a certain level, you have to risk more and more dire side effects as you tally up more points.

Basically, the effect is such that there is an element of resource management. You can cast one big ass spell, and roll on the calamity table, and/or exhaust your mana to the threshold. If you go to, or over, your threshold, there is allure of risking Calamity for more mana.

Or, of course, you can be conservative, and save your mana enough that you don't roll for Calamity. Also, you can just as easily risk calamity by casting lots of spells over a short time. So the Calamity checks aren't directly tied to big effects, just lots of mana spent, without waiting for the tally of mana to go back down (which it will, eventually).

It's all in the article.

[tiger]

I have anything magical use mana, spells, items doesn't matter, all take a -1/2 limitation requires mana.

There are places in my campaign that mana is gone and therefor magic doesn't work.

The caster still use END to maniupulate the mana to the desired effect. Of course using an item doesn't use mana unless there is str envolved

[OddHat]

You're really looking at multiple END reserves, some with mandatory side effects, and extra active points with increased END cost. If you permit the extra END reserves it's not that tough to model.

Bilbo the wizard has a 60 point END reserve with 1 REC (5 points). He also has a 60 point 1 rec end reserve with 30 point side effects that activate whenever that reserve is tapped (4 points), a 120 point 1 rec reserve with 60 point side effects that only affect the environment around the user and activate whenever the reserve is tapped (5 points) and a 240 point 1 REC END reserve with 240 point side effects that only affect the environment around the user (4 points). Total real cost for the end reserves is 13 points.

All of his spells are built with the first 60 active points at normal END cost, the next 60 at 5 times END cost, and the last 60 at 10 times END cost. Megascale spells are automatically set at 10 times END cost. All of this can be done with "free points" to cut down on book-keeping and character cost, but I'd recomend against it, as this makes Wizards much more powerful. If you want the element of randomness back in there, drop the occurs automatically from the side effects and give the END reserves an activation roll; a failed roll means a fizled spell and a side effect. A magic skill roll probably isn't appropriate here, as the Active Point Costs of the reserves are quite low; people would rarely blow the roll.

Now Billy Bo-Bob-Brain has a regular 8d6 AOE:1 Hex Flame Strike spell which costs him 6 END. He can cast it 10 times without Side Effects, 10 more with minor effects that directly affect him, 20 more with Major 60 point Side Effects that affect the area around him, and a final 10 times with massive world shaking 240 point side effects (think Summoning 1200 point demons and global Change Environments).

Billy also has a 6D6 1 Hex AOE Megascale Flame Strike spell. As per the 10 x END cost for Megascale, it costs 60 END to cast once. If Billy hasn't been casting any other spells, he can cast his Mega-Strike once safely, with progressively worse side effects with each additional casting.

Anyway, that's how I'd do it. Or you could just wing it; your players will never know. ;)

Edit: Fixed some of the numbers. I think the only way to do varied side effects as per the original system is GM fiat, or by calling the Side Effects "Unluck" and ruling from there if you feel like you need a more by-the-book method.

Thanks for the positive comments. :)

[Kintara]

Thanks, Oddhat. I'll have to absorb all that, and see if it fits the bill. It seems like it would work at least pretty well.

[Snarf]

Looks great oddhat! And it's made using only core rules.

I'd suggest making the side effects on the final endurance reserve serious enough to kill or burn the magic powers out of casters, so they won't ever completely run out.

Also, maybe the side effects should somehow be made even more random, although I can't think of a rules legal way to that. In the original system, both the likelihood of something bad happening and the specific effect were random.

[SCUBA Hero]

Originally posted by Kintara
To put it another way, GURPS spells are pushable to an extent that HERO spells aren't. In fact, many GURPS spells are unlimited in their pushing ability, and are instead limited by the amount of Endurance (Fatigue, in GURPS) you can practically spend.
Yah, that seems to be the critical difference.

I am working on this. I like Oddhat's method, but it doesn't quite seem to completely fit.

[alms66]

Old thread, I know. I was searching the internet on this very topic though because Unlimited Mana was the only way I'd play GURPS magic and I'd like to bring that feel over to HERO. This thread was all I could find on the subject, so here we go.

I think the original 'spells must be variable in power' isn't necessary. The system fundamentally does two things:
1. Allows infinitely powerful spells (maybe handled as no campaign-required spell limitations?)
2. The price you pay for using too much power is a calamity roll.

Other than that, I think everyone is maybe over-complicating things a bit. Umana is simply a feature of the setting, no need to get the character creation involved at all really. What you do is figure out how much magic power you want to be cast-able on a daily basis. Umana states this as a default of 30, so let's just assume that, though you could change it to anything. So, if the threshold is 30, then once a wizard casts a spell, he keeps a tally of how may Real Points he's used, since that's the measure of the power of a spell, including limitations. Once he goes over 30, just as default Umana rules, roll on the calamity table, adding any excess to the roll. At sunrise or sunset, whatever time you want, the caster gets to roll a recovery roll to erase some of those tallied points.

Anyway, that's the way I'm thinking of handling it, what do you guys think?

[SCUBA Hero]

Okay, after reviewing the original link and stating up front that I'm not familiar with current standard GURPS Magic rules:

1. Threshold and Recovery are an END Reserve and Recovery. Spells cost END as usual (flavor to taste with Increased and/or Reduced END Limitations/Advantages).

2. Campaign Rule: You can exceed your Threshold by any amount, but there's a Side Effect (the Calamity roll). Keep track of END spent. Recovery continues to reduce this number.

3. Without knowing how GURPS Magic works, I can't completely define this, but the idea is - if the character has to know the base spell to cast it, no change in Hero System terms; if the character can "Infinitely Push" any spell he knows, then Campaign Rule: require the character to buy the "base spell" (for instance, Blast 2d6) and allow any and all additional dice and Advantages (for example, Area Effect) to be added to the base spell while also normally adding to END spent. Adjust to taste.



Yes, I have become more tolerant of using Campaign Rules instead of trying to make everything fit into the 'standard Hero System' rules since 2003. Why do you ask? :cheers:

[alms66]

Well, standard GURPS magic basically costs END to cast a spell and you need to know the skill to cast it. A cost of 1, 2 or 3 is generally "standard" cost, area spells being a bit different but safely ignored for this discussion I think, and a cost of 10-15 END are like the most powerful spells in the game. There are devices called 'powerstones' which essentially act as END reserves to boost basic magical power, to be used and introduced into the campaign world at the GM's deciding.

Umana removes the END cost and instead has you start with a tally of 0 and add your spell costs to that number until you hit a threshold, then roll for calamity. Your tally recovers daily (or monthly, weekly, whatever the GM desires really) at 8 points for each recovery, and your threshold is 30 (or whatever the GM desires and can even be 0).

#1, Spells don't make you tired in Umana rules, so why the END reserve, why make spells cost END?
#2, You've already calculated the active and real costs of the spell (power), which is a better gauge of the "power" of the spell unless I'm mistaken, which is what the cost to cast the spell represents in GURPS. Thus the reason I favor using the Real Points in some way - it's a better measure of a spells power, no?
#3, the "infinite" push is actually an optional rule that says the level of magery (advantage that lets you cast spells) you have (can be infinite but recommended to cap at 3-10 depending on power level you want) can be used to power "pushable" spells, but not all spells are such spells, usually just the damaging ones like Fireball (cost=1 you do 1d6 damage, cost=2 you do 2d6 damage, cost=3 you do 3d6 damage, etc.).

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm genuinely trying to understand as I'm still a bit of a noob with HERO. In Umana, the spirit of the rules say that magic is to be extremely powerful, a mage does not simply not cast spells because he is tired or doesn't have the power to pay the cost of casting it, but because if too much magic is used - bad things happen - Ooooooo....
To me it adds a real sense of "magic" to magic when it works this way. You don't have any limits on your power other than you don't want something bad to happen to you and/or those around you. Like, for example, you don't want to blow yourself and a 100 mile radius around you to dust, so you decide not to go ahead and cast a fireball the width of a whole city. But, if you were desperate, you could...

As a side note, in the setting I'm thinking of using this for, this system will be "standard" Wizardry magic. If you make a 'dark pact' for your power, oh yeah, you don't have to worry about calamities at all (but the demon doesn't tell you that he's slowly stealing your soul either, the more magic you use, the quicker he's gotcha - check the fine print). Mwahahahahaha! There will be other magic systems too, like Elven Magic (specific to the Elves, minor nature magic stuff), but nothing that compares in power to Wizardry and Witchcraft (dark pact Wizardy).

[Alcamtar]

Umana is probably my favorite magic system ever. I love the fact that it does not impose artificial restrictions on a wizard, he limits his own casting voluntarily.

alms66, I agree with you on using real points instead of END.

The whole END cost thing is nice and "rules legal" and the END reserve is a clever way to implement this. But END is not really a fair measure of a spell's power unless the GM prohibits the "reduced END" and "Extra END" modifiers, and requires all spells to use END.

In any case, Umana is not "rules legal" in GURPS so why should it be in Hero? Instead of overloading existing systems, why not just create a new power? In that case, all we have to do is adjust the numbers to work for Hero:

Threshold (MANA): base 120, cost 1/5 to increase
Recovery (MREC): base 30, cost 1/2 to increase
Tally: every spell adds its Real Cost to the tally. Tally is reduced by MREC once daily.
Calamity checks: required if Tally exceeds Threshold. Each 20 pts of excess incurs a cumulative -1 penalty to the calamity check.
Improving the Calamity check can be done with PSLs

NOTE: threshold and MREC cannot be "sold off" below their base levels, so non magic using characters cannot mine these for extra CP. However a wizard could reduce these arbitrarily to fit a character concept by taking a Physical Complication.

[Alcamtar]

Umana is a magic system that limits your total usable energy per day. As such, it's worth mentioning that any GURPS wizard worth his salt will know some spells well enough that they are free. (Cost is -1 mana if you know it at 15-, -2 mana if you know it at 20-, etc).

Hero, GURPS, and Umana all allow a form of "free" spell casting. In Hero, you recharge END fast enough to cast minor spells all day long, but you are limited in how much you can use in a short period, and there is no daily limit. In GURPS, minor spells are free, and you have a highly restrictive short-term limit with a rather modest recharge rate, but no daily limit. With Umana, you have free minor spells and no short-term limit, but consequences for heavy use, and it also takes around four days to fully recover from heavy spell use, or longer if you exceeded your threshold. It trades lots of moderate spells spread over time, for a few super powerful spells all at once (plus unlimited trivial spells), but then a long recovery period.

But since minor spells are free, it really only limits moderate to large spells. "Sure I can maintain this light all day, and blast ruffians with my fireballs endlessly, but I must draw upon my mystic reserves to do anything useful to that dragon..."

As such, any system (including my previous post) that does not maintain relatively unrestricted access to "minor" spells is not really capturing the flavor or balance of Umana. One way to do this using, say, the END approach, would be if spells below say 15 AP are allowed to be purchased at zero END cost. Or using the idea I posted, the first 5 real points don't get added to the tally, making all spells cheaper and small spells free.

It occurs to me that Umana could also be approximate very simply by saying that the first 1-2 END from a spell apply against your normal END, but all remaining END come from an END reserve with a slow daily recovery. Your personal END will refresh fast enough that it's not really limiting, and the remainder work like LTE. Though I still think real points are a better balancer than END.

[alms66]

Umana is probably my favorite magic system ever. I love the fact that it does not impose artificial restrictions on a wizard, he limits his own casting voluntarily.
Yeah, I love that too, no artificial restrictions, and I'm trying to keep that ideal in the conversion to HERO as well. That pretty much includes the way you build your power as well, and the original reason I wanted to leave END out of this...


alms66, I agree with you on using real points instead of END.
...but then I realized this and as long as one person does agree with me that means that I'm not completely missing something with HERO then.


The whole END cost thing is nice and "rules legal" and the END reserve is a clever way to implement this. But END is not really a fair measure of a spell's power unless the GM prohibits the "reduced END" and "Extra END" modifiers, and requires all spells to use END.
Does this mean that END scales with a power's increase in... uh... power? I may have missed this in the rules, but aren't there some powers which could be used as spells that simply don't cost END when built, and if so, how much would that then cost in END if you required all spells to use END? A power limitation - uses END or something like that would define it?


In any case, Umana is not "rules legal" in GURPS so why should it be in Hero? Instead of overloading existing systems, why not just create a new power?
Actually, Umana is technically "rules legal" in 4E with GURPS Thaumatology, though they changed the name of it and I don't recall off hand what that new name is - Threshold Magic or something like that though.
I'm trying to do this as simply as possible, and HERO claiming that it can do anything, should be able to do this simply, otherwise we may need to call Mr. Long in for a quick visit to this discussion. In fact, I think I'd really like to hear his thoughts on the issue.


But since minor spells are free, it really only limits moderate to large spells. "Sure I can maintain this light all day, and blast ruffians with my fireballs endlessly, but I must draw upon my mystic reserves to do anything useful to that dragon..."

As such, any system (including my previous post) that does not maintain relatively unrestricted access to "minor" spells is not really capturing the flavor or balance of Umana. One way to do this using, say, the END approach, would be if spells below say 15 AP are allowed to be purchased at zero END cost. Or using the idea I posted, the first 5 real points don't get added to the tally, making all spells cheaper and small spells free.

It occurs to me that Umana could also be approximate very simply by saying that the first 1-2 END from a spell apply against your normal END, but all remaining END come from an END reserve with a slow daily recovery. Your personal END will refresh fast enough that it's not really limiting, and the remainder work like LTE. Though I still think real points are a better balancer than END.
Ah, but minor spells don't have to be free and Umana still works fine. You may want to bump up your recovery rate or threshold, or both to allow for a few minor spells here and there, but the system will work just fine without using GURPS or HERO's 'free minor spells' thing, as I've also used Umana in other game systems which don't do that - D&D even, where each spell raised the tally in it's level worth of points.

[Alcamtar]

Does this mean that END scales with a power's increase in... uh... power? I may have missed this in the rules, but aren't there some powers which could be used as spells that simply don't cost END when built, and if so, how much would that then cost in END if you required all spells to use END? A power limitation - uses END or something like that would define it?
Normally END scales with active points, and costs 1 END per 10 active. But you can buy reduced endurance (either half END or no END), as well as increased Endurance (2x, 3x, etc), which throws off the scaling. Additionally there is a limitation to make a power use END even if it does not normally do so. Since END scales with AP instead of RP, it reflects raw base power, not actual usefulness.


Actually, Umana is technically "rules legal" in 4E with GURPS Thaumatology, though they changed the name of it and I don't recall off hand what that new name is - Threshold Magic or something like that though.
I was wondering about that.


I'm trying to do this as simply as possible, and HERO claiming that it can do anything, should be able to do this simply, otherwise we may need to call Mr. Long in for a quick visit to this discussion.
Well, it can, it just depends on what sort of hoops you want to jump through.

For example:

each power is required to use no END.
take a physical complication on the character, defined as: (the verbatim rules for Umana, plus a formula for computing the mana for each power)

That is simple and it is rules legal. It is not the traditional Hero way to do things though, and basically uses a loophole to insert an entire custom subsystem into the game. But still technically rules legal.


D&D even, where each spell raised the tally in it's level worth of points.
Interesting, that never occurred to me... :sneaky:

[AmadanNaBriona]

I could see building this as an Aid/Succor construct. (Still in 5th here, BTW) say a 2-4d6 Aid with a much increased maximum threshold , so it can be used repeatedly to boost another spells power level. Add side effects to the aid (& maybe a cumulative skill penalty) based on the total AP of the spell being boosted. Limit the Aid so it burns Long Term Endurance. I like Unluck for the SE, but you can do lots of tricksty things with Cumulative Transform Side Effects

[Markdoc]

In GURPS, you don't pay actual points for spells: they are essentially equipment for mages. You pay points for the skill to use the spell - and there's not a direct correlation. A hero system based on this idea has been around for ages: spells require a specific skill roll, but if you can find a spell and learn it, you can use it.

So, to the way I'd handle this is to forget about active cost/real costs directly, but use their effects on skill rolls as your measure. Normally, a skill roll takes -1 per 10 active points. So simply state that mages keep track of how many minuses they acquire during a day's casting. That way, they can cast one large spell, several smaller ones or an endless supply of trivial magics that are so small that they do not inflict a penalty on the roll.

In addition, Gurps Mages can learn some - but not all - spells at higher levels (these are their freebies).

So the system translated to Hero would look like this:

1. Spells don't cost END to cast and don't cost points to learn.
2. All spells require a professional skill roll (each roll is spell specific) that costs 2 points for 11-, or 3 points for an INT roll and 1 per +1 to the roll. Spells of 5 active points or less inflict no roll penalty so they don't count against your calamity limit.

Last of all allow Mages to buy Penalty skill levels that counters -1 to a specific spell for three points per level. These represent the mage's favourite spells, and since the calamity limit is based on how much penalty you accrue, that lets you casts spells without them counting against your daily limit.

So, for example, a mage wants to learn "Firefinger" which is an RKA, 1 hex accurate (That's 26 points per dice!) to the point where he can use 2d6 at will.

That costs him 3 points for a base INT roll (let's say he's INT 18, so 13-) 2d6 is 52 active points, so -5 to the roll! He'll need to buy 15 points of PSLs to cover that, meaning that he pays 18 points for the spell. That's a lot, but it gives him the equivalent of a heavy longbow, that he can use at will (if he can roll 13-), and any target has a DCV of 3. Nasty!

It might not sound like it would be worth it - after all, a strong archer can do almost the same by simply buying CSLs, but the mage has several advantages, the archer doesn't. For a start he can do this with one hand, he doesn't need to stand up and present a target, and most of all - faced with a tough opponent, he has the option to choose to take another -5 on his skill roll and pump out a 4d6 RKA instead. He'd be smart to spend 5 more points, and buy his roll up to 18-. That way he has a no-fail 2d6 accurate RKA and can go up 4d6 if he wants at 13-. But doing so uses up half the points before he hits the calamity level.

As a final refinement, you could allow a Talent: Mage blooded. This costs 10 points per level and comes in three flavours - Initiate, Adept, Magus. Each level allows the mage to increase his Calamity threshold by 10 points. It's expensive, but greatly increases the flexibility of a mage's spells.

This system would have several direct consequences.
1. Mages would buy their INT up as high as possible. This matches what happens in GURPS.
2. Most mages would want to be Mage-blooded - even being an initiate doubles your normal spell limit. This means that although anyone can learn a spell or two, most mages will be specialists - this also matches what happens in GURPS.
3. Most mages will have lots of useful utility spells - it only costs 2 points for a spell at 11- and for spells that you don't need to cast in combat, you can always take more time to make sure you cast successfully, Funnily enough- this also matches what happens in GURPS.
4. The cost to have spells that don't count against your calamity limit is high enough that only the most powerful mages have more than one or two "signature spells" of any worth - and again - this also matches what happens in GURPS.

There are a couple of other points. Spells are cheap enough that most, if not all PCs will probably have one or two minor spells. This isn't very GURPS-like and if you don't want this, you may want to require a 10 point "base level" of the Mage-blooded Talent to set your calamity threshold at 10. (So there'd be 4 levels to the Perk, each giving a +10 points increase in the calamity threshold, but starting at 0 points per day, instead of three, starting at 10 points per day). This would make magic cheap for non-mages but anything over 5 active points would be dangerous, so anything apart from petty magic would be rare. Mages would have to spend a lot to become mages, so would start out weaker in many ways than non-mages, but would become relatively more powerful over time.

This is just a base system - you could "flavour" it much more easily than in GURPS - for example Mages of the Order of the Big Floppy Hat, might specialize n crafting Mages' Staffs that hold spells - letting them pre-load some spells into their staff that they can later call forth without needing to make a roll. Mages of the Temple of the Great Big God might be able to buy Mage Blooded at half price "Only when casting magic for the God's purpose", etc etc.

That way you can have different types of mage, even though they all operate under the same basic magic system.

cheers, Mark

[alms66]

Well, last night, while reading through Fantasy Hero 6E, I figured out how to rebuild the entire GURPS magic system, prerequisites and all. The exact END costs might not be 100% accurate, but you'd have the whole book of GURPS Magic spells, nearly 100% identical to actual GURPS. I don't recall all the ways to do it, but I could figure it out again if someone was really interested in doing that. I'm not. I don't want the GURPS magic system verbatum dropped into HERO. I want spells to be built individually and bought individually, like any other power is normally done. I might put a spell divisor (say divide by 2 or 3) in there to make sure spells are cheap enough to buy and they get enough spells with enough variety and power, but basically standard HERO powers will be spells - no required limitations, or close to it. Then I want to layer the flavor of Umana on top of that (basically casters have no artificial limits in what they can do, they could destroy an entire army with a single spell in theory - only the threat of calamity keeps them from pumping out giant spell after giant spell constantly). I still think my initial idea is the simplest method of doing that. Take the real points in the spell, divide by 10 and round off (just to make the math smaller - instead of adding 54 to your tally each time, it'll be 5). Otherwise, basically use Umana as written. I might even keep the 30 threshold and 8 recovery, though I can't be sure, that would require some playtesting to get right, I'm afraid.

I would still like to get Steve Long's opinion on it, even if just privately, just in case the master can see something I'm missing, but I can't see a better way to handle it at this point even with all the ideas thrown out thus far. They've been some good ideas, just not quite hitting the target on exactly what I want. Would it be considered inappropriate to PM Mr. Long and ask him to chime in this thread when he's got a second?

I still welcome more input, it'll be some time before I put this into practice, so feel free to continue discussion, I'm not 100% set in stone yet and I'll be watching this thread.

[Lucius]

First of all, I followed the link. The system reminds me a little of White Wolf's Mage – which in this case is not a bad thing.



Well, standard GURPS magic basically costs END to cast a spell and you need to know the skill to cast it. A cost of 1, 2 or 3 is generally "standard" cost, area spells being a bit different but safely ignored for this discussion I think, and a cost of 10-15 END are like the most powerful spells in the game. There are devices called 'powerstones' which essentially act as END reserves to boost basic magical power, to be used and introduced into the campaign world at the GM's deciding.

Umana removes the END cost and instead has you start with a tally of 0 and add your spell costs

And by “spell costs” here you mean the exact same thing that you mean by “END cost” earlier in the sentence. Unless I misread the article completely.

You're not really REMOVING the END cost, you're REDIRECTING it to a “tally.”



to that number until you hit a threshold, then roll for calamity. Your tally recovers daily (or monthly, weekly, whatever the GM desires really) at 8 points for each recovery, and your threshold is 30 (or whatever the GM desires and can even be 0).

#1, Spells don't make you tired in Umana rules, so why the END reserve, why make spells cost END?

Why the End Reserve? Precisely BECAUSE “Spells don't make you tired.”
END Reserve doesn't “make you tired” either.

When you say “Tally,” Hero System says “END Reserve.”

Now, the tricky part is that in Umana, there's no real upper limit; there's nothing keeping a magician from fueling a thousand END spell if he wants to badly enough and is willing to go down to do it and take the world with him.



#2, You've already calculated the active and real costs of the spell (power), which is a better gauge of the "power" of the spell unless I'm mistaken, which is what the cost to cast the spell represents in GURPS. Thus the reason I favor using the Real Points in some way - it's a better measure of a spells power, no?

No.

Again, unless I completely misread the article linked to, they're not trying to directly measure a spells “power.” The numbers are based on a spell's Fatigue cost, which maps exactly to END in that, if I understand GURPS, both Fatigue and ENDurance are, yes, tied to a spell's overall “power level” but do NOT necessarily reflect it exactly. Consider for example that in GURPS a skilled wizard can eliminate part or all of a spell's Fatigue cost, and does not seem to do this by making the spell “less powerful.”



#3, the "infinite" push is actually an optional rule that says the level of magery (advantage that lets you cast spells) you have (can be infinite but recommended to cap at 3-10 depending on power level you want) can be used to power "pushable" spells, but not all spells are such spells, usually just the damaging ones like Fireball (cost=1 you do 1d6 damage, cost=2 you do 2d6 damage, cost=3 you do 3d6 damage, etc.).

And as I already noted, this “infinite push” would be the tricky part to implement in Hero.



I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm genuinely trying to understand as I'm still a bit of a noob with HERO. In Umana, the spirit of the rules say that magic is to be extremely powerful, a mage does not simply not cast spells because he is tired or doesn't have the power to pay the cost of casting it, but because if too much magic is used - bad things happen – Ooooooo....

Which leads me to one comment I have to make on this system and its assumptions,

It's handing every spell caster in the world the ability to, more or less at will, trigger an unpredictable global catastrophe. I'd expect any world that's been around a while with magic of this type to have quite a few weird disasters in its history.







Umana is probably my favorite magic system ever. I love the fact that it does not impose artificial restrictions on a wizard, he limits his own casting voluntarily.

alms66, I agree with you on using real points instead of END.

The whole END cost thing is nice and "rules legal" and the END reserve is a clever way to implement this. But END is not really a fair measure of a spell's power unless the GM prohibits the "reduced END" and "Extra END" modifiers, and requires all spells to use END.

And the GURPS system linked to is also not taking “really a fair measure of a spell's power.” It's measuring by Fatigue, which is exactly what END is.

So if we're talking about converting the system described in the linked article, we are (or should be) talking about using END costs to measure spells. If we're talking about something else, I'm just confused, carry on.



Does this mean that END scales with a power's increase in... uh... power?

The ironic thing, alms, is that Hero END tracks a spell's power closer than GURPS Fatigue does.



I may have missed this in the rules, but aren't there some powers which could be used as spells that simply don't cost END when built, and if so, how much would that then cost in END if you required all spells to use END? A power limitation - uses END or something like that would define it?

Yes, exactly. The Limitation “Costs END” (which could, of course, mean an END Reserve) makes a Power that otherwise had no END cost, have an END cost related to its Active Points.



I'm trying to do this as simply as possible, and HERO claiming that it can do anything, should be able to do this simply,

Claiming Hero can do anything isn't the same as saying it can do it simply – or cheaply.



I am working on this. I like Oddhat's method, but it doesn't quite seem to completely fit.

Me too, although there may still be better ways...


I could see building this as an Aid/Succor construct. (Still in 5th here, BTW) say a 2-4d6 Aid with a much increased maximum threshold , so it can be used repeatedly to boost another spells power level. Add side effects to the aid (& maybe a cumulative skill penalty) based on the total AP of the spell being boosted. Limit the Aid so it burns Long Term Endurance. I like Unluck for the SE, but you can do lots of tricksty things with Cumulative Transform Side Effects

I kind of like the Aid idea too, but not necessarily “used repeatedly” - I don't want to go back and reread the article, but I don't remember anything about having to “build up” to these epic levels of power – you just have to decide it's worth the risk, and if it only takes a second to decide that, you're there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, if we're simulating the GURPS Umana system, I have to say that using Long Term END is all wrong. If anything, I'd put the AID or Succor on Recoverable Charges.

I'm not going to quote Markdoc's long post, but I will say it may be the best, most workable proposal yet.

Lucius Alexander

Unlimited Palindromedary

[Markdoc]

Well, last night, while reading through Fantasy Hero 6E, I figured out how to rebuild the entire GURPS magic system, prerequisites and all. The exact END costs might not be 100% accurate, but you'd have the whole book of GURPS Magic spells, nearly 100% identical to actual GURPS. I don't recall all the ways to do it, but I could figure it out again if someone was really interested in doing that. I'm not. I don't want the GURPS magic system verbatum dropped into HERO. I want spells to be built individually and bought individually, like any other power is normally done. I might put a spell divisor (say divide by 2 or 3) in there to make sure spells are cheap enough to buy and they get enough spells with enough variety and power, but basically standard HERO powers will be spells - no required limitations, or close to it. Then I want to layer the flavor of Umana on top of that (basically casters have no artificial limits in what they can do, they could destroy an entire army with a single spell in theory - only the threat of calamity keeps them from pumping out giant spell after giant spell constantly). I still think my initial idea is the simplest method of doing that. Take the real points in the spell, divide by 10 and round off (just to make the math smaller - instead of adding 54 to your tally each time, it'll be 5). Otherwise, basically use Umana as written. I might even keep the 30 threshold and 8 recovery, though I can't be sure, that would require some playtesting to get right, I'm afraid.

I would still like to get Steve Long's opinion on it, even if just privately, just in case the master can see something I'm missing, but I can't see a better way to handle it at this point even with all the ideas thrown out thus far. They've been some good ideas, just not quite hitting the target on exactly what I want. Would it be considered inappropriate to PM Mr. Long and ask him to chime in this thread when he's got a second?

I still welcome more input, it'll be some time before I put this into practice, so feel free to continue discussion, I'm not 100% set in stone yet and I'll be watching this thread.

A simple question. Since the points in a spell are not limited, how do you buy them? Normally 1d6, 5 d6 and 10 d6 points in a power have different effects and cost different amounts. If you can expand them at will, what keeps you from only ever buying a minimum investment in a spell? And if you allowed that, why would anyone ever play anything but a mage?

cheers, Mark

[alms66]

END Reserve vs Tally
Umana has no upper limit to what can be cast, and well, the END reserve is a set amount of points you can spend and a tally is just an infinite tally of what you've spent. To me that's a world of difference so I don't see using an END Reserve as the best way to do this.
Besides, there's no apparent way to use energy beyond this reserve.

Power vs Fagiue
Umana is basing everything on fatigue costs, the standard GURPS method, which is a reflection of the power of the spell - more powerful spells cost more fatigue to cast. However, I'm not interesting in modeling GURPS magic's mechanics, just Umana's mechanics. Again, to clearly separate the two for everyone, Umana is just this:
A wizard has no limitations on what he can cast other than his own desire not to destroy himself. Or, mechanically Tally/Threshold/Recovery Rate.


Ok, so let's do a quick recap of what I need to do to make HERO and Umana play together nicely...
1. There can be no artificial restrictions on a caster's ability to cast spells. He can cast any spell at any time, regardless of how powerful that spell is. He knows his own threshold, recovery rate and tally, so he can monitor the chances of calamity and do what he needs to do to avoid them.
2. There can be no artificial restrictions on creating a spell, no required limitations or advantages (technically this isn't needed, but in the spirit of Umana).
(Since it's already been shown that a spell can be created which doesn't cost END, it seems the only way to track a spell's power and thus tally it, is via the points it would cost to build the spell as a power - Real Points being a more accurate representation given they reflect limitations the spell was created with)
3. Spells will be bought by wizard characters as a skill, spell by spell, individual skills. Wizards will also be required to buy a Magical Talent for the ability to cast spells. There will be talents available to change an individual wizard's threshold and recovery rate as per the Umana rules. (I may not have stated this before, but this is how I intend to handle these things using HERO rules - NOT by modeling the GURPS magic system - I just needed to find the simplest method of tacking Umana rules into the system, and it still seems to me I did that best in my first post).

So why would a wizard not simply build all of his spells as gigantic 16d damage mega-death spells? He can create them, he can buy them as skills and he can cast them - at least he'll be able to cast it once, but it'll kill him. I mean, if you build a spell with 750 Real Points, and we do the 'divide by 10' thing and add that number to your tally, assuming I keep the threshold at 30 and this wizard didn't buy extra threshold, that's 45 points past your threshold and a +45 to your calamity roll - instant death. There would be no reason to have such a spell since you could never use it, without killing yourself. That is, unless you wanted a spell to use if you knew you were going to die anyway and just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. :eg:

[dmjalund]

one possible modification, is allow the mage to take on certain limitations to reduce the Tally cost of a spell (like extra time, consumable foci, incantations throughout, ete) the flavour of these limitations would be specific to each spell

[alms66]

one possible modification, is allow the mage to take on certain limitations to reduce the Tally cost of a spell (like extra time, consumable foci, incantations throughout, ete) the flavour of these limitations would be specific to each spell
Oh yeah, definitely what I was thinking. Just because there are no required limitations doesn't mean that the spell can't be created with some to reduce it's Real Points and thus it's increase to your tally. In fact I can see different players choosing different "standard" sets of limitations giving you some wizards that must always pay END, those that must have their staff to cast spells, those that must always carry consumable foci, those that must always speak, etc. It will almost give the sense that there are dozens of different magic systems in play at once, yet there is really only one very freeform one in place.

[NuSoardGraphite]

This isn't as difficult as it seems at first glance.

First, the "Tally" (I think Mana is more appropriate term) should most assuredly be based on the END cost of a particular spell. Doesn't matter if a spell is designed with a power that costs no End, It still gets "Tallied" as if it costs Active Points/10. This isn't actually Endurance, just keeping track of how much Mana you've manipulated throughout the day, as per the GURPS Umana system. The reason why I say based on END is because END is based on Active Points, which is a much better indication of a Power/Spell's general effectiveness than Real Points. Easily Circumventable limitations can be stacked to significantly reduce the Real Points of a spell and thus give false indications of its true power.

Spells still require a Skill Roll to cast, and the Skill Roll is still modified by Active Points/10 (or AP/5 or AP/20 or however you want to do it). This is your basic feature used to keep mages in check to a small degree. Lesser skilled mages aren't going to be busting out 100 Active Point spells because that is simply too much power to manipulate all at once for their current capabilities.

Spells probably shouldn't be purchased normally with this system. I would probably use the Spell Skill method where you have to buy a seperate skill for each individual spell your character learns. (or for those lenient GM's, a seperate skill for each category like Fire Magic, Water Magic, Air Magic, Summoning etc)

Individual spells in this system will be designed in a very basic/plain fashion. Use the minimum Advantages necessary to represent the spell. Pretty much all spells in this system have the Variable Advantage advantage that can be applied at any level. Thus the mage can increase the area of effect for his fire ball, or the range, or both if he wants to really pump the Active Points. Of course the basic dice/effect can be pumped up as well.

The "Threshold" of the mage should probably be based on the mage's Mental Characteristics. My gut instinct is to make it the sum of their INT, PRE and EGO. Thus a mage with a 10 in each category has a Threshold of 30pts which matches up exactly to what is stated as the normal in GURPS. Thus an "average" Mage could cast 5 60AP spells in a single day, or a single 150AP spell in a day or 30 10AP spells in a day or any combination thereof adding up to 30 Active Points. With this system in place, a burly mage with a 20 in all Mental Characteristics (Threshold of 60) can pump out a single 300 Active Point spell without going supernova! Thats pretty hefty in Hero.

Mana Recovery should probably be based on the sum of your Mental Characteristics divided by 5. Thus the "average" mage (Threshold of 30) has a Recovery of 6 per day. Maybe you want to allow Threshold and Recovery stats to be bought up seperately. I don't see a problem with that as long as players remain reasonable.

As far as the Calamity table is concerned, just write one up. Add to the roll on the Calamity table for every point (or every 5 points or whatever) they go over their threshold. Low rolls on the table have no effect (got off lucky) or the effects are extremely minor and limited to the mage himself. Higher rolls are more devastating and eventually reach out and effect the world around the mage (including his or her comrades). A mage who pushes his or her luck will eventually get a bum roll and do some serious damage. At which point, the mages comrades will become a deterrent; "Are you sure you want to do that Raistlin? You remember what happened the last time you tried to wield so much power at once!"

Just make sure you flavor the Calamity table with effects like draining Body from the local wildlife and plantlife. Instantly removing all the moisture from the surrounding air for a few mile radius (Megascale Change Enviroment). Causing all the stone in 100 yards to crumble to dust (drain Body, only vs stone/brick/mortar). Make sure the collateral damage gets more impressive/destructive the higher you roll on the Table.

I don't see why a system like this couldn't work. If the GM can handle the bookeeping and the extreme flexibility it give mages spells, it should be very playable.

It could definitely support that whole "I'm saving my magic for when we really need it" feel. The mage who saves all his magic power can unleash a big spell without worrying about going over his Threshold too much.

[Lucius]

END Reserve vs Tally
Umana has no upper limit to what can be cast, and well, the END reserve is a set amount of points you can spend and a tally is just an infinite tally of what you've spent. To me that's a world of difference so I don't see using an END Reserve as the best way to do this.

Now I think of it, a tally is counting up, and an END Reserve is counting down - so you may be right that an END Reserve is not necessarily ideal for this purpose.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Reserve

[NuSoardGraphite]

Now I think of it, a tally is counting up, and an END Reserve is counting down - so you may be right that an END Reserve is not necessarily ideal for this purpose.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Reserve

Well, ultimately it doesn't really matter if you "Count up" or subtract from a pool as per the usual END Reserve rules. The main thing is to keep track of the "Threshold" and roll on the Calamity table when that Threshold has been exceeded (or depleted in a subtraction scenario). The end result would be the same.

But remember, just because you are out of END doesn't mean that you can't do things that cost End anymore, it just means those things are gonna take a toll on your body now by doing 1D6 Stun damage for every 2 End you go below 0. The Calamity effects can be considered an extension of this rule to effect things beyond the mage him or herself...

[Narf the Mouse]

Also, maybe the side effects should somehow be made even more random, although I can't think of a rules legal way to that. In the original system, both the likelihood of something bad happening and the specific effect were random.
Sure; just make the Side Effect a No Conscious Control VPP.

[alms66]

Active vs Real Points
But, if you only use Active and a limitation is used against the player, say breaking his staff so he can no longer cast spells, wouldn't that player feel very cheated by the fact that you don't take that limitation into account? Or is it enough that it lowered the cost to buy the spell in the first place (assuming you're buying spells individually as powers)?

Purchasing spells
I really don't see how the method of purchasing the spells will affect anything other than some methods are cheaper than others, but using a cost divisor can bring down the cost of buying spells individually anyway, so you can easily remedy that. Is there something else I"m missing?

Tally vs Reserve
My main argument against the reserve is that HERO has no rules for exceeding it, thus the Umana tally method is better. It really doesn't require anything specific from HERO either, it's usable with any game system, so that's nice too.

As for the calamities causing permanent scars on a campaign world, there's also that "heal calamity" spell at the bottom of the Umana article - I think I'll do something like that to keep from having too many overly devastating events in the world's history.

[alms66]

Ok, I think I've finally got a handle on this...

1. END Reserve is the caster's threshold and recovery rate. If the caster does not buy one, he's effectively causing a calamity roll with every casting. Recovery must be purchased with a -6 Slow Recovery (once per day) limitation.
2. END cost for spells is a minimum of 1. This makes END the way to track a spell's power, not Active/Real points.
3. END Reserve can be exceeded. As per Umana, for each full 5 points it is exceeded, you get a +1 to the calamity roll. Whether you start your reserve at say 40 and subtract END or start at 0 and tally up to the reserve's limit of 40 - doesn't really matter, though I prefer the latter to avoid dealing with negative values since that tends to put some players of for some reason.

It's incredibly simple just as I wanted, and I have to thank you guys for beating the END and END Reserve into me enough for me to finally "get it" while I was re-reading the END Reserve rules tonight. This gets Umana fully working with HERO and has no real impact on how a character buys his spells, meaning you can tack it on to just about any other magic system and have it still work just fine - which is exactly how I wanted it because I plan on doing just that. :thumbup:

[Narf the Mouse]

Once per day is not a -6 limitation - Check "Extra Time".

[Chris Goodwin]

Once per day is not a -6 limitation - Check "Extra Time".

Actually... "Slow Recovery" is a Limitation against the REC of an END Reserve. -6 is right for 1 Day (6E1 p. 206).

[Narf the Mouse]

Actually... "Slow Recovery" is a Limitation against the REC of an END Reserve. -6 is right for 1 Day (6E1 p. 206).
...So it is.

[SCUBA Hero]

Glad you have a method that you like! :thumbup:

[Alcamtar]

Thanks for hashing this all out, alms66, I'll probably end up using it too

[alms66]

Glad you have a method that you like! :thumbup:
Well, it's basically the method everyone's been telling me to use, even you a few posts up, it just took me a while to realize it was right... ;)
Noob...


Thanks for hashing this all out, alms66, I'll probably end up using it too
No problem. We should also thank everyone who bashed the END for spell cost and END Reserve into my brain in this thread - as well as Steve Long, whose PM (I couldn't resist, I had to ask his opinion) was the trigger that finally made the switch flip when I sat down and read the END Reserve rules in 6E1 last night. Thanks everyone.