Using Unlimited Mana with HERO

[Kintara]

*LINK* Here is a magic system I've always wanted to use. (http://www.io.com/~sjohn/unlimited-mana.htm) You might be familiar with it. I was thinking about how I would implement it. It's really great, and lends real mysticism to magic. Of course it doesn't play well with Hero, in a few respects. It is open-ended with respect to mana. No limits in HERO equal issues. Also, the way that GURPS magic worked allowed for spells to expand in scope with the amount of fatigue you spend.

To get the flavor of the system, there needs to be spells that can be rather epic in scale, if the mage wants to expend a lot of power at once. There also needs to be no limits on the amount of mana you spend.

Anyway, the mana system might be covered by making the spells No End, and taking a Side Effect that simply inserts the system in. I would have to think on what it was worth. Of course, I still need to think on how the spells would work. How do you envision implementing this?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Spells with no END cost go against the grain for HERO. They make mages almost infinitely powerful,m especially if they can cast spells as potent as a superhero's attack. If you can cast an unlimited number of 12d6 Explosive Fireballs, then you're pretty much unbeatable unless you have some pretty potent Limitations on the spell. And I don't even want to think about the same spell with Autofire....

No END attacks are unbalancing enough in Champions. In fantasy HERO, they're devastating. You want to provide SOME incentive for a player to play a character other than a mage....

[Kintara]

Well, if you read the system, the limit is still there (in a way). The system works so that you tally the mana you spend, and when it reaches a threshold, you have to roll on a calamity table. You can spend as much mana as you want, but you will cause all kinds of havok to you, the people around you, and even the world.

Edit: I'm going to expand on why this system is a little bit difficult to implement. I can simply import the Calamity table and threshold stuff whole cloth, and make it a Side Effect. Or I can think of some sort of way to make it an END reserve, and cap it at a very high level (not my favorite option). But the problem doesn't end there because of the way spells work in GURPS. In GURPS the limit on power is defined by how much fatigue you spend. In HERO, it's more about the point cost of the spell.

To put it another way, GURPS spells are pushable to an extent that HERO spells aren't. In fact, many GURPS spells are unlimited in their pushing ability, and are instead limited by the amount of Endurance (Fatigue, in GURPS) you can practically spend.

[Chris Goodwin]

UMana was intended to tweak GURPS' crunchy bits to give more fun results. Hero doesn't have the same limitations GURPS does as regards emulating magic.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by archer
UMana was intended to tweak GURPS' crunchy bits to give more fun results. Hero doesn't have the same limitations GURPS does as regards emulating magic. Then it should be easy. How should I do it?

Should I change it a little bit, and ignore how the spells scale in GURPS, and ignore the open-ended nature of the mana, and just apply a limitation to a large END reserve?

Edit: Oh, I get it. I know HERO is cool enough to engender the same level of scope and mysticism that this system gives magic. But I like this system in particular.

[Zoth]

Basically what you have with unlimited mana system is safety threshold and over threshold. Safety threshold I think could be modeled using a normal END reserve.
Now going over the threshold is a little trickier but if you look at the calamity table for the amount you go over you get about an equal calamity. So I would make a 0 point advantage “can go over END reserve but for every END point you go over you get an equal point amount side effect”. Then just make a table up to what most players would never go over and if they do you get to come up with something to surprise them with :D

[Snarf]

I think it might help to focus on the essential features of the UMana system in plain english, rather than trying to directly convert rules first. As near as I can tell, it should do these things:

-It is not tiring to cast spells.
-Enormous spells are possible.
-Cast spells to excess and some horrible disaster will occur.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by Zoth
Basically what you have with unlimited mana system is safety threshold and over threshold. Safety threshold I think could be modeled using a normal END reserve.
Now going over the threshold is a little trickier but if you look at the calamity table for the amount you go over you get about an equal calamity. So I would make a 0 point advantage “can go over END reserve but for every END point you go over you get an equal point amount side effect”. Then just make a table up to what most players would never go over and if they do you get to come up with something to surprise them with :D Yeah, but the problem is this, I want the ability to be able to splurge on one spell, and create one massive effect. Like, say, I need to cast a sleep spell over an entire base or something. Even if I make two spells, one normal Mass Sleep, and one Megascaled version, it still doesn't quite work because Megascaling doesn't raise the END enough. I suppose I could add an Increased End cost to them, or buy it in a more cumbersome way, but I still don't like the results. I need a better pushing system.

[Snarf]

At the very least, you would have to remove the limits placed on pushing. A maximum of double effect,10 character points, and such is not going to be as dramatic a difference as you're looking for.

If you use the endurance reserve method, you could track the endurance you've exceeded the safety threshold by, and use that to calculate the APs of a side effect.

I think a system like this could be useful outside of Fantasy Hero. It could just be a generic safety threshold advantage, representing a buildup of side effects. It could just be another way to fuel powers; an alternative to endurance, charges, and 0 END.

[Zoth]

IC what you are really looking for is away to allow the character to go over a set active point level? So normally a character can cast up too say 50 ap before going over his ap threshold? Then he can cast a spell as high as he wants over 50 ap but will get a calsmity?
May be you could use a VPP and wave the 60 point max and say for every point over 60 ap you get a equal point side effect kind like the 1st idea. Each configuration would be a spell and the VPP would require a skill for each configuration.

[Kintara]

Well, what I want is what the article describes. The important parts are varied. Firstly, when you cast spells, you should be able to cast the spell at a variety of power levels. You should be able to push it, and push it in a way that isn't entirely unappealing. Also, the spell's cost, however it is simulated, should not really tire you, and should be tallied up. And when the tally reaches a certain level, you have to risk more and more dire side effects as you tally up more points.

Basically, the effect is such that there is an element of resource management. You can cast one big ass spell, and roll on the calamity table, and/or exhaust your mana to the threshold. If you go to, or over, your threshold, there is allure of risking Calamity for more mana.

Or, of course, you can be conservative, and save your mana enough that you don't roll for Calamity. Also, you can just as easily risk calamity by casting lots of spells over a short time. So the Calamity checks aren't directly tied to big effects, just lots of mana spent, without waiting for the tally of mana to go back down (which it will, eventually).

It's all in the article.

[tiger]

I have anything magical use mana, spells, items doesn't matter, all take a -1/2 limitation requires mana.

There are places in my campaign that mana is gone and therefor magic doesn't work.

The caster still use END to maniupulate the mana to the desired effect. Of course using an item doesn't use mana unless there is str envolved

[OddHat]

You're really looking at multiple END reserves, some with mandatory side effects, and extra active points with increased END cost. If you permit the extra END reserves it's not that tough to model.

Bilbo the wizard has a 60 point END reserve with 1 REC (5 points). He also has a 60 point 1 rec end reserve with 30 point side effects that activate whenever that reserve is tapped (4 points), a 120 point 1 rec reserve with 60 point side effects that only affect the environment around the user and activate whenever the reserve is tapped (5 points) and a 240 point 1 REC END reserve with 240 point side effects that only affect the environment around the user (4 points). Total real cost for the end reserves is 13 points.

All of his spells are built with the first 60 active points at normal END cost, the next 60 at 5 times END cost, and the last 60 at 10 times END cost. Megascale spells are automatically set at 10 times END cost. All of this can be done with "free points" to cut down on book-keeping and character cost, but I'd recomend against it, as this makes Wizards much more powerful. If you want the element of randomness back in there, drop the occurs automatically from the side effects and give the END reserves an activation roll; a failed roll means a fizled spell and a side effect. A magic skill roll probably isn't appropriate here, as the Active Point Costs of the reserves are quite low; people would rarely blow the roll.

Now Billy Bo-Bob-Brain has a regular 8d6 AOE:1 Hex Flame Strike spell which costs him 6 END. He can cast it 10 times without Side Effects, 10 more with minor effects that directly affect him, 20 more with Major 60 point Side Effects that affect the area around him, and a final 10 times with massive world shaking 240 point side effects (think Summoning 1200 point demons and global Change Environments).

Billy also has a 6D6 1 Hex AOE Megascale Flame Strike spell. As per the 10 x END cost for Megascale, it costs 60 END to cast once. If Billy hasn't been casting any other spells, he can cast his Mega-Strike once safely, with progressively worse side effects with each additional casting.

Anyway, that's how I'd do it. Or you could just wing it; your players will never know. ;)

Edit: Fixed some of the numbers. I think the only way to do varied side effects as per the original system is GM fiat, or by calling the Side Effects "Unluck" and ruling from there if you feel like you need a more by-the-book method.

Thanks for the positive comments. :)

[Kintara]

Thanks, Oddhat. I'll have to absorb all that, and see if it fits the bill. It seems like it would work at least pretty well.

[Snarf]

Looks great oddhat! And it's made using only core rules.

I'd suggest making the side effects on the final endurance reserve serious enough to kill or burn the magic powers out of casters, so they won't ever completely run out.

Also, maybe the side effects should somehow be made even more random, although I can't think of a rules legal way to that. In the original system, both the likelihood of something bad happening and the specific effect were random.

[SCUBA Hero]

Originally posted by Kintara
To put it another way, GURPS spells are pushable to an extent that HERO spells aren't. In fact, many GURPS spells are unlimited in their pushing ability, and are instead limited by the amount of Endurance (Fatigue, in GURPS) you can practically spend.
Yah, that seems to be the critical difference.

I am working on this. I like Oddhat's method, but it doesn't quite seem to completely fit.