STR level cut-offs.

[Kenn]

Over in the "What does a 20 COM" thread, I was raising a point about STR actually representing a range.

And one of the examples I gave, I've always judged as needing a 20 STR, another poster (Sean) said would need a 21 STR. Now, this is one of those times when I figure I could either ask Steve to make an official call. But after 21 years of using this game system, and reading 3 different editions of the rules, plus the Ultimate Brick, I don't remember seeing it dealt with.

Given the exponential way STR works, every point of STR grants an increase of 14.87%. But where do you put the cut-offs? I've always used the "round-offs favour the player" approach. So if an object has a mass of 107 kg in 1g, which woulr require a 10.488 STR (if you do the algebra backwards from the weight) a 10 STR would suffice, where 108 kg (10.555 STR) would require an 11 STR. The other approach is the 10 STR can lift a 100 kg., a 11 STR can lift 115 kg., 107 is greater than 100, and less than 115, so an 11 is required.

Or is this too mathematics intensive for you to worry about?

[Derek Hiemforth]

I've always treated it that the lift amount for a given STR value represents the bottom of the range for that value. So to use your example, a 10 STR could lift up to 114.99999kg, and an 11 STR would be required to lift 115kg.

[Hyper-Man]

Another option is to allow a 'micro' push and let the 10 STR character lift the 11 STR weight for an extra 1-2 END expenditure.

[ghost-angel]

I've always treated it that the lift amount for a given STR value represents the bottom of the range for that value. So to use your example, a 10 STR could lift up to 114.99999kg, and an 11 STR would be required to lift 115kg.

I go the opposite.

10 STR can lift an absolute maximum of 100kg - remember this is the "get it off the ground, shuffle forward and drop it" maximum of STR.

100.5kg? Need an 11 STR.

This is also consistent (for those who insist on it) with similar ideas in HERO - if you have a 5pt Follower it's 1pt; 6pt Follower? that's 2pts.

[Sean Waters]

According to page 34 of 5ER the strength table shows the maximum that a STR of that value allows you to lift.

Excellent poll, BTW :)

[Derek Hiemforth]

According to page 34 of 5ER the strength table shows the maximum that a STR of that value allows you to lift.
So it does. So, umm... like I was saying... I rule that the value next to the listed STR is the absolute max that STR can lift. :D

[Kenn]

The Ultimate Brick, page 11, the Expanded Strength Table indicates
11 STR : 117 kg
12 STR : 133 kg
13 STR : 150 kg
14 STR : 175 kg
15 STR : 200 kg
16 STR : 233 kg
17 STR : 267 kg
18 STR : 300 kg
19 STR : 350 kg
20 STR : 400 kg

However, following the formula precisely the numbers should be

10 STR : 100 kg
11 STR : 114.8698355 kg
12 STR : 131.9507911 kg
13 STR : 151.5716567 kg
14 STR : 174.1101127 kg
15 STR : 200 kg
16 STR : 229.739671 kg
17 STR : 263.9015822 kg
18 STR : 303.1433133 kg
19 STR : 348.2202253 kg
20 STR : 400 kg

The UB numbers for STR 11, 12, 14, 16, 17, and 19 are all higher than the maximum allowed, if one is using the 9.1-10.0 = 10; 10.1 - 11.0 = 11, that makes the UB numbers wrong.

[prestidigitator]

I too use the value for a particular amount of Str (e.g. 100kg for Str 10) as the maximum that Str can lift. However, if we're talking a few grams or even a couple kilograms at the Str 10 level (say a 5% difference or so in general), I'm not likely to be very picky. I might require a Str or Ego roll or something, but it depends a lot on the circumstances. Is there a hurry? Is the character "tired?" Does he just have to lift something off the ground for a moment, or is he trying to move it, or...?

In other words neither/both/pi.

[Psybolt]

We always round in favor of players in everything but SPD.

[Vondy]

In heroic games I've allowed a gradated push. You can increase you strength by your MoS. So, if you are strength 15 (roll 12-) and you roll a 9 your MoS is 12-9=3. As such, you can lift as much as an 18 strength character. However, I also charge 2 End per point over your norm. So it would cost you 9 End.

[Klaus Mogensen]

We always round in favor of players in everything but SPD.
Oh? So if I play in your campaign and I have STR 19, I get to do 4d6 HA damage? (rounded off to 20). If I spend 13 points on a KA, I get 1d6 KA? (rounded off to 15).

Hero actually is rather inconsistent in rounding. I would like to see more consistency in 6e.

- Klaus

[prestidigitator]

Oh? So if I play in your campaign and I have STR 19, I get to do 4d6 HA damage? (rounded off to 20). If I spend 13 points on a KA, I get 1d6 KA? (rounded off to 15).

Hero actually is rather inconsistent in rounding. I would like to see more consistency in 6e.

I'd say instead that people misinterpret WHERE to round. You don't round your Str to figure out how many dice of damage you do; rather you do 1d6 for every 5 points of Str (no division of real numbers implied; that IS confused a bit in places where it suggests you can optionally add +1/2d6 for an extra +3 Str). You don't round off the number of points spent on a power to figure out how many dice you have in it (or whatever); instead you calculate the cost (THAT may take rounding if Modifiers are present) and then you pay that WHOLE amount in Character Points. It's not that the system rounds things inconsistently; it's that people want to "round" everything under the sun for some reason.

[bigbywolfe]

The Ultimate Brick, page 11, the Expanded Strength Table indicates
11 STR : 117 kg
12 STR : 133 kg
13 STR : 150 kg
14 STR : 175 kg
15 STR : 200 kg
16 STR : 233 kg
17 STR : 267 kg
18 STR : 300 kg
19 STR : 350 kg
20 STR : 400 kg

However, following the formula precisely the numbers should be

10 STR : 100 kg
11 STR : 114.8698355 kg
12 STR : 131.9507911 kg
13 STR : 151.5716567 kg
14 STR : 174.1101127 kg
15 STR : 200 kg
16 STR : 229.739671 kg
17 STR : 263.9015822 kg
18 STR : 303.1433133 kg
19 STR : 348.2202253 kg
20 STR : 400 kg

The UB numbers for STR 11, 12, 14, 16, 17, and 19 are all higher than the maximum allowed, if one is using the 9.1-10.0 = 10; 10.1 - 11.0 = 11, that makes the UB numbers wrong.

I notice that the difference seems to stay within 4 kg. I'm wondering if you are using the exact same math as the UB writers. Perhaps your their math is ever so slightly different from yours, then they rounded to give players a nice even number? Either way, whether you use UB expanded STR Table, or your math of inbetween numbers of the table, I think the rules are fairly clear. The number listed is the MAX a character can pick up carry a few steps before dropping it. Does a 2-4 kg difference make that big of a difference in a supers game? I don't think so. And any GM who stats the weight of EVERY object in the game to 4 decimal places is a little to OCD for the likes of me. Plus, remember that you can always make minor exceptions to the rules for the sake of "common or dramatic sense". Oh, and don't forget about Pushing.

[prestidigitator]

I notice that the difference seems to stay within 4 kg. I'm wondering if you are using the exact same math as the UB writers. Perhaps your their math is ever so slightly different from yours, then they rounded to give players a nice even number? Either way, whether you use UB expanded STR Table, or your math of inbetween numbers of the table, I think the rules are fairly clear. The number listed is the MAX a character can pick up carry a few steps before dropping it. Does a 2-4 kg difference make that big of a difference in a supers game? I don't think so. And any GM who stats the weight of EVERY object in the game to 4 decimal places is a little to OCD for the likes of me. Plus, remember that you can always make minor exceptions to the rules for the sake of "common or dramatic sense". Oh, and don't forget about Pushing.

In other words, equal temperment or just intonation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone#Semitones_in_different_tunings)? ;)

[Kenn]

I notice that the difference seems to stay within 4 kg. I'm wondering if you are using the exact same math as the UB writers. Perhaps your their math is ever so slightly different from yours, then they rounded to give players a nice even number? Either way, whether you use UB expanded STR Table, or your math of inbetween numbers of the table, I think the rules are fairly clear. The number listed is the MAX a character can pick up carry a few steps before dropping it. Does a 2-4 kg difference make that big of a difference in a supers game? I don't think so. And any GM who stats the weight of EVERY object in the game to 4 decimal places is a little to OCD for the likes of me. Plus, remember that you can always make minor exceptions to the rules for the sake of "common or dramatic sense". Oh, and don't forget about Pushing.

The math I used to prodiuce that list is 25*(2^(STR/5)), the straight calculation. Spreadsheets are useful tools for repeated calculations.

And calculations can be reveresed.
117 kg / 25 kg = 4.68
ln(4.68) / ln(2) = 1.54329811 / 0.69314718056 = 2.22650853
2.22650853 * 5 = 11.132526


And in super heroic games, that kind of margin of error is more significant. The difference between an 11.0000 STR and an 11.1325 STR is a little more than 2 kilos. The difference between a 51.0000 STR and 51.1325 STR is 545 kilos. A factor of 256.
The differnece between a 76.0000 STR and 76.1325 STR is 17,440 kg. There is a difference between 958 tons and 941 tons.

[bigbywolfe]

That's good to know and adds some validity to your point. Since I suck at math, can you explain something for me, though? How can the margin of error ever increase, while every 5th and 10th spot stays even?

[Kenn]

That's good to know and adds some validity to your point. Since I suck at math, can you explain something for me, though? How can the margin of error ever increase, while every 5th and 10th spot stays even?

It goes up because the exponential nature of the strength system. A 15 STR can lift 200 kg. A 10 STR can lift 100 kg. Between 10 and 55 there are 9 doublings and 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2 = 512. So a 55 STR lifts 51,200 kg. A 60 STR then lifts 102,400.

Now the difference between what a 55 STR and a 60 STR is ALSO 51,200 kg.
The difference between what a 10 STR and a 15 STR is 100 kg.

The differences between actual weights also goes up every 5 STR.

A 10 STR lifts 100 kg, an 11 STR lifts 113 kg. Difference is 13 kg.
A 15 STR lifts 200 kg, a 16 STR lifts 226 kg (2*113). Difference is 26 kg.
A 20 STR lifts 400 kg, a 21 STR lifts 452 kg (4*113). Difference is 52 kg.

[bigbywolfe]

Okay, thanks. I follow that just fine. Where does the decimals out to for places come from in your previous chart?