Five-Teams

[Michael Hopcroft]

I havent; seen the VIPER book yet. Does that organization still organize its agents into "five-teams" to more efficiently combat both supers and normals? And if so, how effective are they in real terms?

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
I havent; seen the VIPER book yet. Does that organization still organize its agents into "five-teams" to more efficiently combat both supers and normals? And if so, how effective are they in real terms?

By definition, Viper always loses. Every villain they create casually saunters off on his own, usually killing a half dozen scientists on his way to the surface. Troops of Girl Scouts regularly wipe out Viper Attack Squads for Merit Badges in Public Service. Small yapping dogs chase Viper Mecha, drag them down, and reduce them to scrap. Entire Viper Nests have been destroyed by passing groups of nosey kids (sometimes with the aid of a large cowardly dog or shark). Six year old school yard bullies steal Viper's entire research and development budget every day at recess.

So not very effective.
:D

[Tech]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
I havent; seen the VIPER book yet. Does that organization still organize its agents into "five-teams" to more efficiently combat both supers and normals? And if so, how effective are they in real terms?

I don't know about any Five-teams in VIPER or not. However, using the older VIPER material, five-teams are well-respected or feared when I use them.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Tech
I don't know about any Five-teams in VIPER or not. However, using the older VIPER material, five-teams are well-respected or feared when I use them.

Sounds like the campaign I was in when the first AC article came out detailing the new Viper. Up until that point every hero was hunted by Viper. One adventure changed all that. Viper got real nasty real quick.

And while I haven't seen the 5th Ed version of them yet, I can't imagine that they are going to get less effective.

[misterdeath]

Viperia. 1370 points. Totally loyal.

D

[GestaltBennie]

VIPER now uses Four-Teams and Eight-Teams, depending on the job.

Scott Bennie

[Tech]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
VIPER now uses Four-Teams and Eight-Teams, depending on the job.

Scott Bennie

'Eight-Teams'.... I like that word. <GM thoughts aplenty>

[Blue Jogger]

Originally posted by OddHat
Entire Viper Nests have been destroyed by passing groups of nosey kids (sometimes with the aid of a large cowardly dog or shark). Six year old school yard bullies steal Viper's entire research and development budget every day at recess.

So not very effective.
:D

LOL!
"And Viper would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids!"

Picturing the Scooby gang dressed up as a superhero team.
Freddy as the flying brick.
Daphine as the energy projector witch.
Velma as the scientist/gadgeteer.
Shaggy and Scooby as the martial artists with running.

[Chuk]

I wanna see the Hero stats for Jabberjaw.

[Blue Jogger]

JabberJaw

25 STR 15
18 DEX 24
18 CON 16
15 BODY 10
10 INT 0
10 EGO 0
10 PRE 0
10 COM 0
5 PD 0
4 ED 0
3 SPD 2
9 REC 0
36 END 0
24 STUN 0
-----------68 pts

Skills
(5) PS: Musician 14-
(7) Concealment (INT+2) 13-
(7) Contortionist (DEX+2) 15-
(5) Criminology (INT+1) 12-
(3) Disguise (INT) 11-

Powers
(5) LS: Breathe Air
(7) ShapeShift (Squished into a small container)
Touch Group, 0 END Persistent, Requires Contortionist Roll (-1/2)
(10) 10" Swimming
(6) +3" Running
(3) Ultrasonic Hearing
----
58
58+68=126

Disadvantages
(10) Social Limitation - 12 foot tall Shark (11-, minor)
(10) Physical Limitation - 12 foot tall Shark
(15) Psychological Limitation - Coward (Common, Strong)
(25) Enraged when other band members need help (Very, 14-, 14-)

[Chuk]

That is the best thing about this board -- you mention something, someone does it! Cool.

[RevHooligan]

I wanna see Hero stats for Christina Ricca in a bathing suit. And a low carb beer that tastes like Newcastle.

Eh. worth a shot.

[Starcorp Man]

Love the five man teams, just take the standard agent and swap out the weapons.

Was so disappointed in that Viper agents didn't have find weakness anymore.

[Blue]

I dropped (4) 5-man teams into a scenario in my last game. I might as well have been walking the agents into a meat grinder. The agents dropped no one and barely injured anyone. Only my NPC hero was having difficulty with them. It was ugly!

And I would have thrown in a few super-powered villains to even things out if my players weren't having so much fun.

I've gone to great lengths to come up with good villains for my players, and here the ones they enjoyed the most are the ones they annihilated. I knew viper was good for something.

[Celt]

Originally posted by Blue
I've gone to great lengths to come up with good villains for my players, and here the ones they enjoyed the most are the ones they annihilated. I knew viper was good for something.

Occasional bouts with scads of relative normals are good for buffing up the super ego, reminding players they are giants among mere mortals. OTOH, agent teams with good tactical sense and proper preparation can lay a hurt down on even the mightiest of foes. It all depends on what your set-up is.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Blue
I dropped (4) 5-man teams into a scenario in my last game. I might as well have been walking the agents into a meat grinder. The agents dropped no one and barely injured anyone. Only my NPC hero was having difficulty with them. It was ugly!

And I would have thrown in a few super-powered villains to even things out if my players weren't having so much fun.

I've gone to great lengths to come up with good villains for my players, and here the ones they enjoyed the most are the ones they annihilated. I knew viper was good for something.

What exactly was VIPER's problem in the fight? Were they failing to hit, did their weapons fail to penetrate when they did hit, did the heroes eliminate large numbers of agents before they had a chance to attack or some combination of the three?

I'm sure if we analyze the problem, it shouldn't be too hard for VIPER to develop a few tactics to deal with the heroes more effectively next time.

Scott Bennie

[Agent X]

Why would anyone consider it a problem that agents get beaten up by a superhero team? They shouldn't be too effective. They should be pawns of supervillains.

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Agent X
Why would anyone consider it a problem that agents get beaten up by a superhero team? They shouldn't be too effective. They should be pawns of supervillains. Dunno about you, but I get protective of my poor NPCs. :) Silly trait, really, but every time I make a villain who has a cool backstory, a name, a goal, a raison d'etre... he gets his head lopped off by a murderous PC before he gets to say anything.

Gets you down, gets you down. ;)

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
VIPER now uses Four-Teams and Eight-Teams, depending on the job.

Scott Bennie

If you have a problem hero, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire..."The Eight-Team".

Sorry.

:)

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Lupus
Dunno about you, but I get protective of my poor NPCs. :) Silly trait, really, but every time I make a villain who has a cool backstory, a name, a goal, a raison d'etre... he gets his head lopped off by a murderous PC before he gets to say anything.

Gets you down, gets you down. ;) Sounds to me like your problem is more that your players don't play heroically than a problem with your villains. What, no Codes vs Killing in your group? Even the police will start to balk if every time the "Revengers" swing into action the body count goes into double digits.

You can handle this two ways:

1) Sit down with the players and explain that you think they are on the wrong track, and that they need to ramp down the lethality.

2) Increase the power and lethality of the villains to match. Every time a villain dies, kill a PC hero in retaliation. Call it cosmic karma. See how long it takes for the PCs to find a "kinder, gentler heroism." :)

Option 1 is smarter, but #2 is more fun.

[Blue]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
What exactly was VIPER's problem in the fight? Were they failing to hit, did their weapons fail to penetrate when they did hit, did the heroes eliminate large numbers of agents before they had a chance to attack or some combination of the three?

I'm sure if we analyze the problem, it shouldn't be too hard for VIPER to develop a few tactics to deal with the heroes more effectively next time.

Scott Bennie

Heh. Yeh, I've already considered that next time they show up it won't just be a bunch of agents with their typical weaponry. I've decided that I want Viper to gradually be tougher each time. As expected the agents were dropping from one or two hits but the heroes were shrugging off all the damage! The agents were indeed hitting, just not for much if anything. Plus it wasn't easy handling my 20 agents plus 1 NPC plus their 5 PCs.

I had things prepared to make this tougher, but when one of the players commented on how much fun he was having and two others agreed, I didn't have the heart to throw in the two villains I'd made. I'll use them next time, and beef up the agent weapons, throw in a tactical advantage (smoke grenades or something that require goggles to see through).

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Sounds to me like your problem is more that your players don't play heroically than a problem with your villains. What, no Codes vs Killing in your group? Even the police will start to balk if every time the "Revengers" swing into action the body count goes into double digits. Nah, it's not really a problem. :) Not a CvK game. Not an entirely heroic game, either. Was set up that way. I just put too much effort into creating villains who aren't really meant to last longer than fight or two. :p

[assault]

Originally posted by Blue
I had things prepared to make this tougher, but when one of the players commented on how much fun he was having and two others agreed, I didn't have the heart to throw in the two villains I'd made. I'll use them next time, and beef up the agent weapons, throw in a tactical advantage (smoke grenades or something that require goggles to see through).

I would hold back on the villains, and just throw the agents at them in a smarter way.

Definitely use smoke grenages etc. Perhaps add some heavy weapons. Most definitely add lots and lots of innocent by-standers.

The situation you want to set up is: the PCs can either save innocents, or fight the agents, not both. If they chose to fight the agents, they will have to find them, dealing with smoke, teargas, bazookas, grenades, and any other toys that you care to use. The agents, in any case, are trying to achieve a goal which is not "defeating superheroes", but rather "acquiring something VIPER wants, and escaping with it afterwards".

So, at some point, the agents will retreat, hopefully without the heroes being able to pursue. If the agents have achieved their goal, they will have won, that is, they will have defeated the heroes.

Of course, they may not succeed in doing this. The ideal situation is one where the skill of the actual players, not the power of the heroes, is what is decisive in determining the outcome.

On a related note: I have always been very fond of the old Super-Agents supplement. I've never been able to use all of it, and it's rather dated now, but it just breathes fun, and it portrays agents in a way that is, shall we say, inspiring to the evil GM looking to mess PCs up with normals.

Most agents are anonymous cannon fodder. Not all of them are. Some of them can have individual character sheets, higher characteristics, more skills, and so on. And of course, working for an agency, they can have special toys from the R&D division.

If VIPER really wants to mess with heroes, they can always assign undercover agents to the case. They can investigate the heroes to discover their weaknesses, and develop an appropriate reponse. They can assign elite agents to the case, including near supervillain grade skill mongers, assign special equipment, and generally power up, all without a single supervillain getting involved.

Then again, hiring a few supervillains as legbreakers might actually be quicker and cheaper!
In fact, now that I think about it, this is probably an early response in the process of escalation. Assigning agents who are actually valuable and talented is probably only something that happens _after_ the rent-a-villains have failed.

And if the elite agents fail, then it's time for the staff villains...

Now I think about it, the proper way to design VIPER's tactics is to consider its budget. They have goals which have to be prioritised, and will assign resources to each target appropriately. Eliminating pesky superheroes is one of these targets. VIPER will always seek to do this the cheapest and easiest way that is actually likely to be effective.

VIPER is actually far more dangerous than a supervillain group like Eurostar. It contains more supervillains, at least some of which are as powerful as anything Eurostar has. (And if it doesn't, it can probably hire them!)

It also can form temporary mercenary supervillain teams to face specific threats. This is, of course, expensive, so I suspect this will only happen when there is a known threat, or a specific critical need.

The real question is where are the elite, near-supervillain grade agents? Does the local Nest have them? If not, can they be called in for assistance? Is this cheaper (including in status terms) than hiring local talent villains? And so on.

The funny thing is: if every Champions GM in the world designed "their local VIPER Nest", with the resources that they have available, and all this could somehow be rationalised into a single organisation, however loose, the result would be almost entirely unlike anything that would be written up in a supplement!

My Nest, for example, would be very much a business, with little in the way of overt agent power, but with some very nasty covert agents. It would be geared towards making money, perhaps handling some mad scientists, and, of course, making useful contacts. To some extent, it would be a micro-agency in its own right.

Anyway: VIPER has everything it needs to smack down punk superheroes. For the sake of fun, escalate their response gradually, but remember that if VIPER gets really concerned, overwhelming force is probably doctrine. Agents can have skills. Defensive weaponry, like smoke grenades, is really handy.

And of course: innocent bystanders are your friend.

Alan

[megaplayboy]

well, the first time an agency encounters the heroes, they may be unprepared. Let the PCs whoop a$$ and smile.

The second time, the agents will try more numbers and slightly bigger guns. The PCs will take slightly longer to walk through them.

The third time, the mercenary villains help out, or the agency base is assaulted. A fairly tough fight, perhaps.

The next time the agency shows up, they do it smart. Undercover agents investigate the PCs, maybe a comely female agent befriends a particularly gullible and talkative PC.
Over weeks or months, the strengths and weaknesses of the PCs are discovered. Special weapons and tactics are developed to counter the strengths and exploit the weaknesses.

Then the psy ops begin. Scurrilous stories of scandal are fed to tabloids and local news. The new girlfriend persuades the talkative PC that he should really be leader. A bomb goes off in the team's press office. One of the heroes is set up to look like a reckless pugilist or triggerhappy vigilante. Angry editorials appear in the newspaper and the mayor isn't returning their calls.

Finally, the set up. A token force of regular agents appears in a public park or mall. When the heroes show up, the trap is sprung. An overwhelming force, or an elite group of agents specially equipped as "hero-stoppers" either frightens the PCs into retreat or outright captures them.

Next you have the agency leader gloating as the heroes are led into their customized individual deathtraps(at least one has a barely perceptible flaw the hero can use to escape and free his comrades). The team escapes and is about the stomp the agency leader when they have one more obstacle to beat: The Ultimate Super Agent.:D

One other thought--give the specialized agents a lightning reflex bonus, and combat levels, only vs. the hero they have trained against. Imagine the energy projector's surprise when the agents actually go before him on phase 12!

[assault]

I wrote:
The funny thing is: if every Champions GM in the world designed "their local VIPER Nest", with the resources that they have available, and all this could somehow be rationalised into a single organisation, however loose, the result would be almost entirely unlike anything that would be written up in a supplement!

Thinking about this a little more, this might be an interesting exercise. We couldn't use VIPER, of course, but building a similar organisation cell-by-cell to see how it turns out might be kind of fun.

I don't think using one of the official organisations is necessary (maybe RAVEN?), but whipping up a bit of a VIPER clone wouldn't be too hard.

Then we could start a thread where people could write up their own local branches... The organisation would more or less _only_ consist of the documented branches, plus perhaps a headquarters controlling some pooled resources. Of course there would also be associated corporations and front organisations, which people could also write up if they felt inspired.

The result would be incoherent, and nobody would use all of it, but it might be fun and inspirational.

I might sit on the idea for a few hours, work out some guidelines, and start a new thread later. Alternatively, someone else could do it first, and of course anyone who wanted to make some suggestions would be welcome to do so.

Just for starters - it would have to be a bit four-colourish, but should be usable for "darker" games.

It would have reasonably outrageous resources, but need to make a profit overall, even if individual cells don't. Money is useful, even for those with other goals.

Anyone interested? Any thoughts?

Alan

[Trebuchet]

I like the idea. I don't have a villainous agency such a VIPER in my campaign per se, but I do have something that fulfils much the same purpose.

In my campaign I have the Chosen, a loosely knit group of immortal sorcerers and mentalists. Refugees and descendants of the rebels in the Atlantean civil war ~5000 years ago, the Chosen operate in individual groups with anything from 1-50 Atlanteans. The Chosen believe it is their birthright to ultimately rule over the world's human cattle, enslaving humanity in perpetual bondage. In this, they are opposed by a number of mostly informal Atlantean groups, most notably the Circle of Light (powerful mentalists) and the Synod (sorcerers). The Chosen often work through human fronts; Hitler was a Chosen puppet although it is uncertain which of his "advisors" was actually Chosen; most probably Eichmann. Only occasionally does a Chosen directly show themselves as a power, such as the infamous Morgan le Fey (still at large, and one of the most powerful Chosen sorceresses who has ever lived) from the days of King Arthur. (Need I add that Merlin was an Atlantean working to oppose Le Fey?)

Fortunately for humanity, the Chosen spend as much time intriguing amongst themselves as they do attempting to take over the world, and backstabbing is a high art amongst them. Alliances are for convenience only. That's the price one pays for being evil. :)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I like the idea. I don't have a villainous agency such a VIPER in my campaign per se, but I do have something that fulfils much the same purpose.

In my campaign I have the Chosen, a loosely knit group of immortal sorcerers and mentalists. Refugees and descendants of the rebels in the Atlantean civil war ~5000 years ago, the Chosen operate in individual groups with anything from 1-50 Atlanteans. The Chosen believe it is their birthright to ultimately rule over the world's human cattle, enslaving humanity in perpetual bondage. In this, they are opposed by a number of mostly informal Atlantean groups, most notably the Circle of Light (powerful mentalists) and the Synod (sorcerers). The Chosen often work through human fronts; Hitler was a Chosen puppet although it is uncertain which of his "advisors" was actually Chosen; most probably Eichmann. Only occasionally does a Chosen directly show themselves as a power, such as the infamous Morgan le Fey (still at large, and one of the most powerful Chosen sorceresses who has ever lived) from the days of King Arthur. (Need I add that Merlin was an Atlantean working to oppose Le Fey?)

Fortunately for humanity, the Chosen spend as much time intriguing amongst themselves as they do attempting to take over the world, and backstabbing is a high art amongst them. Alliances are for convenience only. That's the price one pays for being evil. :)

Except for the names, I've been using almost exactly the same set up. :) The evil Atlanteans are the Balor and their catspaw's are The Mornigstar Corporation and various small groups of Vampires, Werwolves, etc. The "good" Atlanteans are The Nine (not exactly "good," but unlike the Balor not entirely insane) and their splinter groups (The Council, The Circle, others). Far more recent groups like Demon or The Crowns are seen as intollerable by both.

The Roman Catholic Church is aware of these groups and counters them with the Order of Saint George (church alligned mystics and metahumans), and most governments have an agency or two that either suspects the truth or is controlled by the ancients. And of course most younger paranormals and metahumans who are aware of them at all see the ancient groups as a bunch of frickin' loonies.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by OddHat
Except for the names, I've been using almost exactly the same set up. :) The evil Atlanteans are the Balor and their catspaw's are The Mornigstar Corporation and various small groups of Vampires, Werwolves, etc. The "good" Atlanteans are The Nine (not exactly "good," but unlike the Balor not entirely insane) and their splinter groups (The Council, The Circle, others). Far more recent groups like Demon or The Crowns are seen as intollerable by both.

The Roman Catholic Church is aware of these groups and counters them with the Order of Saint George (church alligned mystics and metahumans), and most governments have an agency or two that either suspects the truth or is controlled by the ancients. And of course most younger paranormals and metahumans who are aware of them at all see the ancient groups as a bunch of frickin' loonies. Hmmm. Maybe we ought to exchange plot ideas? If your're interested, e-mail me. (Obviously we can't discuss it here, as my players frequent these boards.) :)

One of our PCs (Our mentalist, Prodigy) is an Atlantean, and a founding member of the Knights Templar. The Templars are a group founded by the good Atlanteans as a specific counter to the Chosen, who were working within the Catholic Church through most of the Middle Ages. So in addition to being an immortal, he is also an ordained Catholic priest.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Hmmm. Maybe we ought to exchange plot ideas? If your're interested, e-mail me. (Obviously we can't discuss it here, as my players frequent these boards.) :)


I'll drop you an email. :) May take me a day or two to put together anything useful though. I like the Immortal Catholic priest idea.

[assault]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
The Templars are a group founded by the good Atlanteans as a specific counter to the Chosen, who were working within the Catholic Church through most of the Middle Ages.

Hmm. But the Chosen managed to turn the Inquisition against the Templars...

I suppose that's reasonable enough. If the Inquisition was being used against the Chosen, it would naturally be a target for infiltration and potential takeover.

It's all getting a bit WoDdy, though.

Alan

[OddHat]

Originally posted by assault
Hmm. But the Chosen managed to turn the Inquisition against the Templars...

I suppose that's reasonable enough. If the Inquisition was being used against the Chosen, it would naturally be a target for infiltration and potential takeover.

It's all getting a bit WoDdy, though.

Alan

The trick to running "ancient powers" without drifting into WoD stupidity is in (a) giving humanity credit for being inovative, intelligent, vicious, kind, brilliant and stupid all without outside help and (b) keeping the ancients rare enough to limit their influence.

That and forcing any goth players to scrape off the makeup and take out the frickin' fangs before they sit down at the table.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by assault
Hmm. But the Chosen managed to turn the Inquisition against the Templars...

I suppose that's reasonable enough. If the Inquisition was being used against the Chosen, it would naturally be a target for infiltration and potential takeover.

It's all getting a bit WoDdy, though.Most of human history in our campaign is influenced by the constant battle between the Chosen and their enemies (Hitler and Stalin were both pawns of different Chosen factions.). Prodigy's mentor, Uruk (the ancient city in Babylon was named after him), is the most powerful mentalist to have ever lived. He's now 8000+ years old, and has been such notables as Gilgamesh and Merlin through his long life. He tends to take the long term view, but he's utterly ruthless and extremely pragmatic. He's a good guy, but his view of what is "good" is not quite the same as modern sensibilities. For example, Uruk persuaded the Mongolian hordes to go westward in order to break the Muslims since Mohammed was a Chosen (Mecca is still a Chosen stronghold; and the Kaaba stone is a powerful magic artifact).

Mentor and I are both big history and conspiracy buffs, so our campaign universe incorporates a lot of those elements.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by OddHat
The trick to running "ancient powers" without drifting into WoD stupidity is in (a) giving humanity credit for being inovative, intelligent, vicious, kind, brilliant and stupid all without outside help and (b) keeping the ancients rare enough to limit their influence.That's a good point, and we've taken measures to reduce that problem.

First, the Atlanteans are rare. There are only a few thousand of them in the entire world. They can seldom reproduce, so their numbers have remained virtually stable for literally millenia. (70% of them died when their ancient island city, now submerged under the Black Sea, was destroyed by the shattering of the Dardanelles 5000 years ago.) 50% of all persons of Atlantean blood have no idea of their true nature, but are simply considered gifted humans even by themselves. Many over the centuries have simply been considered persons with "the gift", which has always been a mixed blessing. (Many more have been burned as witches than have made fortunes or ruled nations.) And of the remaining persons of Atlantean blood, the majority simply wish to get along and pay no real attention to the struggles between good and evil. So the actual number who get involved in the struggle are small in both real and relative numbers. Many of the Chosen factions are just a few members, and they mostly use human agents.

Secondly, the Atlanteans are human; they've simply been gifted with psychic and/or magical abilities and longevity. Atlantis was both more and less than it is often thought to be. It had indoor plumbing thousands of years before Rome, but captured and used slaves for labor and as fodder for war. Magical light sources and writing, but most buildings were made of clay bricks. Atlanteans had immense magic powers, and engaged in constant political intrigues and rebellions. They are no better than humans because they are humans, with all that that implies, both good and bad. And the ordinary humans constantly thwarted their plans, because those ordinary humans had their own ambitions.

[OddHat]

Trebuchet, I like your approach, and again I've done something similar, but with a different emphasis.

My Atlanteans stem from a very small group of humans (Homo sapiens) over 300,000 years ago who developed very limited psionic powers. These powers are often linked to mental and emotional instability and physical illness, most notably sterility, which is why in the "baseline" of humanity they never developed further. The ancestors of the Atlanteans were not so unlucky; some ancient prodigy among them recognized her powers, developed them, and most importantly learned how to develop them in others both by a form of psionic genetic engineering and through selective breeding. By roughly 30,000 BC, the Atlanteans had reached levels of psionic power that wouldn't be seen again until the 20th century. They were also for the most part sterile without the use of their psionic powers to ensure live births.

This was the Age of Wonders, when the Atlantean empire was formed. The Atlanteans engaged in wild excesses of genetic engineering in this time, creating the races of legend both obviously non-human (Satyrs, Centaurs, Merfolk, Harpies, Dragons and others) and only subtly different (Vampires, Shape Changers). After the fall, the races that couldn’t breed or survive without the organized psionic assistance of their masters eventually died out (a few with inhumanly long life-spans lasted into historical times). The few fertile Atlanteans mixed their genes back into the general pool of humanity, as did the few shape changers able to do so.

In my modern campaign setting virtually all metahumans carry Atlantean genes, most recently activated by the “Wild Card Virus” popularly believed to have been developed by the Germans during WWII (and actually of an entirely different origin). Most metahumans dismiss any tales of their Atlantean heritage as just another ridiculous conspiracy theory about the origins of the Wild Card (the strangest of which has been propagated by a telepathic red-headed madman who calls himself “Doctor Tachyon”). Even those who do know and accept the truth are not necessarily any more likely to join one or another group of psionic lunatics who claim to speak for an empire dead since roughly 10,000 BC.

Enough (entirely realistic) factional infighting and you can have your conspiracies and your free will too.
;)

[John515]

I like a lot of the ideas regarding the way VIPER is to be handled. I, for one, will gradually introduce them into my game and kick the ever-lovin' dog-snot out of the players if they start to get too cocky. I want them to know that these guys are not fighting a bunch of idiots with tacky costumes. To me, VIPER is a TERRORIST group with a lot of resources. I plan to treat them like it. Chemical weapons, bombs, hijackings, assassinations, and various other ingredients will all be a ingredients in my VIPER recipe.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by OddHat
Trebuchet, I like your approach, and again I've done something similar, but with a different emphasis.

My Atlanteans stem from a very small group of humans (Homo sapiens) over 300,000 years ago who developed very limited psionic powers. These powers are often linked to mental and emotional instability and physical illness, most notably sterility, which is why in the "baseline" of humanity they never developed further. The ancestors of the Atlanteans were not so unlucky; some ancient prodigy among them recognized her powers, developed them, and most importantly learned how to develop them in others both by a form of psionic genetic engineering and through selective breeding. By roughly 30,000 BC, the Atlanteans had reached levels of psionic power that wouldn't be seen again until the 20th century. They were also for the most part sterile without the use of their psionic powers to ensure live births.There's much more to the Atlanteans than what I've given here. Lots of stuff is still unknown to the players in my campaign, including ones who read this forum such as Mentor, so I'm not going to reveal too much. I can give you more info directly.

In my campaign anyone who can inately manipulate magic or psionic energies is of Atlantean blood. Indeed, in my game the two are considered variations on the same basic force; a crude analogy would be electricity and electronics. One is generally more powerful but cruder; the other is typically less powerful but more subtle.

I do like some of your ideas, so I hope you won't be upset if I steal some to fill in a few minor gaps. I really like the use of psionics to prevent stillbirths; it explains much about their poor reproductive rate and why they haven't populated the world. Most of my Atlanteans are not truly immortal; just very long lived. Most live between 800-1500 years. Only those who reach a certain level of mastery of their powers are able to modify themselves to become truly immortal. There are probably only a dozen over 3000 years old, but those tend to be very powerful indeed. :D

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
In my campaign anyone who can inately manipulate magic or psionic energies is of Atlantean blood. Indeed, in my game the two are considered variations on the same basic force; a crude analogy would be electricity and electronics. One is generally more powerful but cruder; the other is typically less powerful but more subtle.

I got rid of the distinction in my campaign world as well. "Magic" and "Psionics" are one and the same. "Magicians" use meditation, self-hypnosis, herbal medicines, fragments of Atlantean technology, and a wide variety of other techniques developed over thousands of years to channel their powers. Even those with fairly weak natural psionic powers can become functional magicians and learn to use those powers to their fullest. This is the main recruitment incentive available to cults and other groups that know a little real magic. Psionicists are a modern phenomena, and many will eventually learn some magic, though they'll tend to use more scientific-sounding terms ("Advanced Psionic Techniques") to explain what they're doing. Almost by definition they tend to start out with more raw power than magicians (without that raw power they couldn't function without the trappings of Magic), but they also tend to be much less flexible.
The Chinese Super-Martial Artists call their psionics "chi," and often achieve focussed power levels far beyond those of modern western Magicians and Psionicists.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by OddHat
I got rid of the distinction in my campaign world as well. "Magic" and "Psionics" are one and the same. "Magicians" use meditation, self-hypnosis, herbal medicines, fragments of Atlantean technology, and a wide variety of other techniques developed over thousands of years to channel their powers. Even those with fairly weak natural psionic powers can become functional magicians and learn to use those powers to their fullest. This is the main recruitment incentive available to cults and other groups that know a little real magic.There's a bigger difference between the two in my campaign; but they are still related. Indeed, the real and philisophical differences between users of "magic" and"psionics" were a potent dividing force, and were amongst the issues that ultimately led to the Atlantean civil war circa 3000 BC. Psionicists tended to be more "internal," drawing off their own resources. Magicians tended to use their abilities to draw power from external sources, including items of power, demons and other extradimensional entities. The two are not entirely exclusive; many Atlanteans have abilities in both fields although true competence in both is extemely rare. 80% of the Chosen are magicians rather than psionicists; and the vast majority of the rebels in the Atlantean civil war were magicians as well. For this reason the Synod, a powerful group of sorcerers and one of the Atlantean groups which actively opposes the Chosen, is viewed with some suspicion by most Atlanteans. Relations between them and other Atlanteans tend to be rocky. (For the sake of convenience, I'll collectively refer to Atlantean groups which oppose the Chosen as "Ishtari." in the future.) BTW, "Atlanteans" is not the term they call themselves; it was coined by their enemies/victims referring to their island city and plagarized by Plato. Their name for themselves (as with most primitives, even sophisticated ones) simply means "the people."

(Hmmm, I've never put this much information in print about the Atlanteans before. I think I'll collate and expand upon all this and put together a "GM's Guide to the Atlanteans" for my campaign.) :D

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
(Hmmm, I've never put this much information in print about the Atlanteans before. I think I'll collate and expand upon all this and put together a "GM's Guide to the Atlanteans" for my campaign.) :D

A darn good idea, and part of the reason why I'm enjoying the exchange. :) It's always nice to get this stuff written down.

I like the idea of a the conflict being between the users of extra-dimensional energies / entities and the internalists. I always knew it was civil war that did Atlantis in, and I had a vague idea of the genetically engineered slave races (the monsters, kindred and bound spirits) rebelling against the Nine (the ruling council representing the nine great bloodlines), but throw in the idea that the rebellion was lead by the extra-dimensionalists ("Out-Callers" maybe?) and the modern Morningstar Corporation's fondness for enslaving extradimensional creatures and the spirits of the dead becomes much more interesting.
In other words, consider the idea stollen. ;)

I've got a plot line I think you can use and / or adapt in your setting. I'll try to email it sometime today.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by RevHooligan
I wanna see Hero stats for Christina Ricca in a bathing suit. And a low carb beer that tastes like Newcastle.

Eh. worth a shot. Michelob Ultra is desperation Atkins brew so I second the second.