Shunamitism

[BobGreenwade]

I came across an interesting item the other day -- the occasional practice of Shunamitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunamitism). Strictly speaking, it's the practice of an older man sleeping chastely with a young woman so that warmth, moisture, and other vital energies can be transferred from the latter to the former.

(That the two don't have carnal relations is apparently part of the point here; in the story on which the idea is based, King David could probably have very well taken Abishag of Shunam as a concubine, but didn't. Presumably that would have spoiled the effect.)

In more recent centuries, apparently up until the early to middle 20th century, much was made of this idea, though the presence didn't have to be quite so close -- being in regular proximity to young women (or even girls in their mid to late teens) could bring about this rejuvenation. One researcher (in 1901) theorized that some aspect of the odor of young females is what brings about the effect.

There have been, at least as far as I'm aware, no studies done to determine if there's any actual biological basis for this. (And believe me, there could be; I'm constantly finding surprising things with actual scientific bases.)

The general thought is that the effect of Shunamitism is to slow or even halt the advance of aging, relieve stress, and bring up energy.

I'm wondering how people would write this up in Hero System game terms. I'm particularly thinking of the "makes one younger" aspect; a Transform to reduce one's Age bracket would be the obvious way, probably Healing Back Normally and with Partial Transform. But I'd like to see others' take on this as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Um....seriously?

[Sean Waters]

Psych Lim: Paedo?




Too much?

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm sorry, Bob, I'm with them. I can't treat it seriously.

I'm having a really hard time following the "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" rule. I'll leave it at that.

[BobGreenwade]

Well, yes, I do mean it seriously.

But remember that, while it's divided by gender, the phenomenon has nothing to do with sexual relations. It could work just as easily in a father-daughter or grandfather-granddaughter relationship with no incestuous or ephebephiliac overtones (other than those "read in" by third parties who tend to assume such things even if they're not actually there).

Or, to put it another way, if a person has the ability, by her breath, to bring vitality to another person, with the basic effects described above, how would this be written up?

[Hyper-Man]

An easier way to look at the problem is to ask how to do the reverse effect.

That is, how do you build the ability to make someone old?

Transform seems about right in either case to me.

[Killer Shrike]

Fine, the particular example you cite aside...

The question is, does the character LOOK younger, or FEEL younger, or are they ACTUALLY younger, or does it just PROLONG their life from that point forward?

If they just LOOK younger it could be as simple as either a long-fade AID to COM or a Cosmetic Transform as you prefer.

If they FEEL younger it could similarly be a long-fade AID to one or more stats (REC for instance would both diminish any long term END losses and also "put more spring in the step" of an elder gent so to speak), a +1 Overall level (useful for boosting CHAR and PER rolls up a bit to overcome any age-deflation of stats), or see below.

If they are, for all intents and purposes, actually YOUNGER then since the game defines age as a Disadvantage via NCM, you would need to offset the Disadvantage cost by using Transform to grant the character a custom power with 5 or 10 base points depending on how much of an Age Disad is being offset.

If their lives are just being prolonged then similar to above except that you would need to give them a point of LS: Longevity via Transform. Of course, the longevity steps are pretty big for purposes of an effect like this and of course it has no real game effect unless your campaigns happen to span centuries, but there you go.

Of course, you either have to give such a power to each and every nubile young girl, or else declare it an environmental effect of sort, but there you have it. Once you step into the surreal you can't be too surprised when things get weird.

[Egyptoid]

Crew Served CON Aid

[Thia Halmades]

... I hate doing this.

I'm with them. KS has given you a decent answer. I ... can't. I'm sorry. All I can say is: Determine what whatever you're doing... er... DOES, and build THAT, with the applicable lims. I am NOT building this.

[Sean Waters]

Anyway, believe me Bob, having kids around doesn't make you feel younger - if anything it ages you.

[Chris Goodwin]

Ok, I figured out why it's so creepy.

It's because he's explicitly getting something from her. You can say it's not "carnal" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's entirely for his benefit.

Shades of youth stealing, elderly vampires draining young girls. Even if she's not losing anything in the bargain.

Edit: In fact, you could make it entirely his Power, and that still wouldn't help.


But remember that, while it's divided by gender, the phenomenon has nothing to do with sexual relations. It could work just as easily in a father-daughter or grandfather-granddaughter relationship with no incestuous or ephebephiliac overtones (other than those "read in" by third parties who tend to assume such things even if they're not actually there).

Not helping. Not in the least.

If you changed it to an older woman and a younger man, it wouldn't be any better. If you changed it to an even transaction, where he's giving up something to her in exchange, it still wouldn't be any better.

The scenario you've described, from top to bottom, is creepy, to me. There's no way you can present it to not be.

[braincraft]

Hey, don't look down on Shunamitism. It was good enough for Ghandi, it should be good enough for you.

[prestidigitator]

What is the system effect of aging? There isn't much, really. Maybe a reduced fade Aid to Com, limited by the circumstances of having to go through the experience without succumbing to temptation? Just an idea, but I think it's going to be highly up to interpretation.

[Alibear]

Anyway, believe me Bob, having kids around doesn't make you feel younger - if anything it ages you.

True and repped.

edit: Sorry not repped - must spread the love.

[Chris Goodwin]

True and repped.

edit: Sorry not repped - must spread the love.

I would, but I already hit him with my rep stick the other day.

[Alibear]

I would, but I already hit him with my rep stick the other day.

We need a thread for this... :help:

[Egyptoid]

The scenario you've described, from top to bottom, is creepy, to me. There's no way you can present it to not be.

1. It's only creepy in our post-victorian american culture.
so says Egyptoid


2. In the Matrix, the main use of the humans was the energy produced from their bodies

[Trebuchet]

This is just another "ism" I really wish I hadn't learned about. :idjit:

[Doc Democracy]

We need a thread for this... :help:

Dont you remember your own thread?

I Owe Rep Exchange (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64830)

I've been using it lots....


Doc

[Alibear]

Dont you remember your own thread?

I Owe Rep Exchange (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64830)

I've been using it lots....


Doc
I couldnae be arsed loking for it. Thanks anyway;)

[Sean Waters]

This is just another "ism" I really wish I hadn't learned about. :idjit:

-isms can be bad, but -philias can be worse :)

[teh bunneh]

If this were the NGD, I would make a comment about how college-age girls always put a little extra spring in my step... but it's not, so I won't.





You're welcome. :winkgrin:

[Lucius]

If you use the idea at all, it's just part of the way the world works. Just as you don't need to "build" something into citrus fruits to make them protect you from scurvy, or define in game terms the difference between sleeping in a warm bed or on a hard chair.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks it's best done as "special effects." Why does this 80 yr old man still have CON 13? Because he eats right, exerciss, and hangs out with young people.

[Sean Waters]

This is a good point. There is evidence that old people who keep their minds and bodies active tend to live longer and be more healthy, and one way to do that would be to hang around young people (so long as you remember to wash properly).

I'd assume any old PC or important NPC would generally be considered more active anyway, so the situation probably would not arise.

If you insisted on building it, I would not change the world, I'd change the person: hanging around young people is probably not enough in and of itself, you need the right mental attitude, or receptivity, or whatever. Buy LS Longevity 1 (only when in the proximity of people at least a quarter your age -0). That would mean the character ages at half rate in those circumstances.

[Trebuchet]

-isms can be bad, but -philias can be worse :)I've become more open minded about this issue; and think there might even be something to it.

If Jessica Alba and Taylor Swift will come to my apartment pronto, we can get started on the empirical (and totally scientific, of course) tests immediately. :whistle:

[BobGreenwade]

If you use the idea at all, it's just part of the way the world works. Just as you don't need to "build" something into citrus fruits to make them protect you from scurvy, or define in game terms the difference between sleeping in a warm bed or on a hard chair.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks it's best done as "special effects." Why does this 80 yr old man still have CON 13? Because he eats right, exerciss, and hangs out with young people.
This is a good point. There is evidence that old people who keep their minds and bodies active tend to live longer and be more healthy, and one way to do that would be to hang around young people (so long as you remember to wash properly).

I'd assume any old PC or important NPC would generally be considered more active anyway, so the situation probably would not arise.

If you insisted on building it, I would not change the world, I'd change the person: hanging around young people is probably not enough in and of itself, you need the right mental attitude, or receptivity, or whatever. Buy LS Longevity 1 (only when in the proximity of people at least a quarter your age -0). That would mean the character ages at half rate in those circumstances.That's my own preference for practical purposes (both for my own games, and for real life). I was just thinking along the lines of, "what if some one wanted to play a young person who had this as a 'special' ability?"
If this were the NGD, I would make a comment about how college-age girls always put a little extra spring in my step... but it's not, so I won't.
I've become more open minded about this issue; and think there might even be something to it.

If Jessica Alba and Taylor Swift will come to my apartment pronto, we can get started on the empirical (and totally scientific, of course) tests immediately. :whistle:To paraphrase teh bunneh... if people's minds weren't so much in the gutter :mad:, I'd make a comment about wanting to spend time around Hayden Panettiere for much the same reason. I do get this general effect when I get to spend time around high school and college-age girls (though I don't attribute it to sex or even odor, but to what's in their hearts).

[Markdoc]

To paraphrase teh bunneh... if people's minds weren't so much in the gutter :mad:, I'd make a comment about wanting to spend time around Hayden Panettiere for much the same reason. I do get this general effect when I get to spend time around high school and college-age girls (though I don't attribute it to sex or even odor, but to what's in their hearts).

You drink their blood? :eek:

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

Look, I like 18 year old women as much as the next guy, but if my wife caught me in bed with one there's no way she'd believe it was purely platonic.

[random]

I'm wondering how people would write this up in Hero System game terms. I'm particularly thinking of the "makes one younger" aspect; a Transform to reduce one's Age bracket would be the obvious way, probably Healing Back Normally and with Partial Transform. But I'd like to see others' take on this as well.

If you have the Transform healing back normally, then the target would revert to his or her original age after a few months (or years maybe). Is that what you're after?

If the rejuvenation is permanent -- that is, the target's age is actually reduced to whatever age it appears to be, and (s)he then ages as normal from that point -- then it would probably be better to have an "all or nothing" recovery condition, where the recovery occurs based on some kind of appropriate special effect. If the shunamitic power is magical in nature, maybe a dispel or suppress magic effect would cancel it and cause the age to return.

[Egyptoid]

you people might need to get out of your western mind-set,
if only for a minute.
or maybe read a non-game, non-rule book once in a while.

think of a castle that has no heating of which to speak.
think of your self as the king or chieftain.
everything and everyone in the area is a resource,
ostensibly which you own or upon which you can call .

human bodies give off waste heat.
we in our nice suburban houses rarely have to huddle together just for the heat.

now you the chieftain could bang this girl if you wanted, yes. you do "own" her.
this is not the point, if your little minds can handle it.

the point is, if you take care of yourself you will live longer,
and if you keep yourself warmer in winter, that's a big step.

now if you smart guys say "build a fire", then realize this
custom originated where wood was a rare commodity, not a trifle like in North America.

Think on these things, and be wise. This concept is just generally not a western or european idea.

[ghost-angel]

I'm thinking that it would simply prevent the onset of the Age Disadvantages, or at least the negative effects of it.

If so, if the concept could reverse the aging process - mechanically it's a Transform removing the Age Disadvantage.


And for the record - the immediate sexualization of this concept by others disturbs me more than old guys sleeping with young girls at any level. Especially when the OP went out of his way to remove sexual context. Western (anti-)culture is a sad thing sometimes.

[BobGreenwade]

And for the record - the immediate sexualization of this concept by others disturbs me more than old guys sleeping with young girls at any level. Especially when the OP went out of his way to remove sexual context. Western (anti-)culture is a sad thing sometimes.I would like to note that my annoyance comes from the fact that this isn't the only place I've encountered the attitude. I would've been my more characteristically patient self otherwise.

The more recent responses to the question have been quite helpful, by the way.